Everything found in the Catholic Catechism about Purgatory is shown here:

1031
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says [in Matthew 12:32] that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1498
Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

1475
In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1472
To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

Thus, it is apparent that God has revealed very little through the Catholic Catechism about Purgatory. However, we can gain some further understanding of it by examining the Scriptures.

Continued below...

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 07, 2004

Answers

I have some verses (shown here in KJV) that can arguably show the existence of purgatory, and although they don't all necessarily prove its existence (eg. Micah 7 passage may not refer to someone who died, but it may), they do show that there is Biblical evidence for such a place to exist. Thus, Catholics cannot be accused of having an unbiblical doctrine by believing in purgatory.

Matthew 12
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Without purgatory, why would we need to be forgiven in the world to come?

Revelation 21 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it [heaven] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

We see here that nothing unclean or "defil[ing]" can enter heaven, because God is holy. Thus, if we die with sins that Jesus' blood has not covered (since they remain unconfessed), there must be a place for purging us of those sins. This is out of God's mercy, for otherwise He would have to send all of those people to hell, since their sin cannot enter heaven.

Zechariah 9
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

Notice the similarities between Zech. 9:11 (above) and 1 Pet. 3:19 (below)

1 Peter 3
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Here we see how it's possible to suffer both for well doing and evil doing (v. 17), and Christ also suffered (so it's not saying His sacrifice was insufficient). Why did Christ go to preach to the "spirits in prison"? They were the souls in the OT "waiting place" who had followed God, waiting for Jesus to come to bring redemption and bring them to heaven.

We see also that with Noah's ark, "eight souls were saved by water," and this is compared to the baptism which "doth also now save us"! Since it appears directly after the reference to purgatory, we can conclude that baptism gives us the necessary cleansing to be freed from purgatory if we were to die at that moment, since we would be cleansed of original sin.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 07, 2004.

Isaiah 4
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Micah 7
7 Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.
8 Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me.
9 I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness.

I think this passage above also refers to the OT waiting place, from which God will liberate the author when Jesus comes.

Malachi 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.

We see in the passage above the prophecy of Jesus' coming. God is compared to a "refiner's fire" and "fullers [launderers'] soap". This indicates that somehow, we need to be purified or cleaned up. We see that God will "purify, purge" the Levites (OT priestly tribe) so that they can "offer unto the LORD and offering of righteousness." Interestingly, this offering is made by people, not by God in this case, and it occurs after Jesus' coming, as shown by the preceding verses. This implies that God allows us to have some part in the process of our own purification, when we submit in obedience to Him. Also, we see that the "sons of Jacob are not consumed" if they return to God, which could mean that they do not go to hell. Thus, there must be an alternative "waiting place" for them, since they were as of yet unable to enter heaven.

Matthew 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The above passage suggests that although God forgives all the servant's "debt" (ie. he obtained salvation), he still must forgive others. He was sent to be tormented, not for eternity, but only "till he should pay all that was due unto him." This suggests that he will be released at a future time.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 07, 2004.

1 Corinthians 15
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

We see here that people are "baptized for the dead," implying that, by God's grace, those who are dead can somehow receive benefit from what we do here on earth. Also, some may take "if the dead not rise at all" to mean referring to eternal life, as in the spirit's resurrection into heaven, out of the grave. However, another way to view it (and I think a better way considering the context) is that these dead are being "raised" from out of purgatory. This explanation makes more sense considering the fact that people are "baptized" for these dead people.

1 Corinthians 3
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Now we see in v.15 that the man will be "saved," although his work is "burned." He "suffer[s] loss" and is "saved; yet so as by fire." Being saved by fire implies a purifying process, which makes a case for the existence of purgatory.

1 Peter 1
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

This passage again shows that our faith is tried by fire.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 07, 2004.

I should acknowledge my mother's contribution to this, as she directed me to the majority of these Scripture passages.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 07, 2004.

Emily,

Re-read that passage from 1 Cor. It is NOT talking about purgatory, but the rewards you get in heaven.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 07, 2004.

Oops! How could I forget Luke 16?!

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Here we see that Abraham and Lazarus were in a separate place from the rich man, and a gulf was fixed between them. This is further evidence for the "waiting place" for OT believers, since Christ's death on the cross had not yet happened to allow them to enter heaven.

As for this being a place of comfort, this could be in comparison to the horrors of hell. The other alternative is that God showed mercy to those in the waiting place by not inflicting as much suffering upon them as souls would normally face in the state of purgatory. Nonetheless, this passage still provides further evidence for a place or state besides heaven and hell.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 07, 2004.

http://aomin.org/1Cor3.html

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 07, 2004.

David said: Re-read that passage from 1 Cor. It is NOT talking about purgatory, but the rewards you get in heaven.

David, this is your opinion and interpretation of the passage, along with James White's. That does not necessarily mean it is God's Truth. I checked that site you sent me, and I found some of his conclusions to be stretching, but he accuses Catholics of doing so.

Here is a quote by James White from the site:

A man is justified before God by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to him, and the imputation of the man’s sin to Christ, the perfect substitute, who bears in His body the sins of His people upon Calvary (Romans 3:20-4:8). . . . The truth of God’s sovereign grace is attacked by Roman Catholicism, and its man-centered sacramentalism. One of the most egregious attacks upon the finished nature of Christ’s work on Calvary is the dogma of purgatory.

The problem with this is that Catholics agree with that statement at the beginning about justification, so when he says that the Catholic view of justification "attack[s]" "God's sovereign grace," he is in part attacking his own view.

Do you have anything to address the other passages that I showed?

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

Emily

We had one of White's followers visit this forum awhile back. I asked him some questions about his Calvinic way of thinking. It was way to hot for him here and he took things to wrong way. He has never come back to defend what he believe's nor White's doctrine.

My questions weren't that horrible, were they?

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

For Pete's Sake: Calvinism Thread.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

I think that what the doctrine of purgatory misses--is the fact that we are completely forgiven in Christ. His sacrifice cleanses us pure and white.

Purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ.

The fire pertains to judging the works of the saved., and has to do with rewards in heaven. It is not us who go through the flames--but our deeds....

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 08, 2004.

I understand what you are saying, Faith. But, I have this nagging fact that there is not one without sin in this entire earth. There seems to be a contradiction. Purgatory takes care of that contradiction.

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

If God created Purgatory, how can the idea that "Purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ" be accurate. Perhaps this is exactly how Christ may do His will and sufficiency. We still sin even if we thing we are "saved"; no one is without sin, not even one. Jesus cleanses our souls, but even those Calvinists will tell you that man is depraved. Jesus continues to cleanse us, especially right before some of us enter Heaven--Purgatory.

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

"We still sin if we thing....". What was I thinking?

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

Sure, we are forgiven of our sins, but we still have the aftermath/consequences of the sins we've committed. It isn't like the bad stuff will go away just because our sins are forgiven. We still have a price to pay for those sins as they wreck our lives or other's. There is this thing called, "pennance". Just because our sins are washed away doesn't mean to look the other way and not clean up the mess we've made. We must correct our lives or others'. I think Purgatory may also provide for that "cleansing".

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

no rod..,

Jesus Christ covers the sin problem--not purgatory.

There is none that are good., except God.

Jesus Christ is the perfection that we could never be., he is the way..

The Bible tells us that when we receive Christ as our Savior--we put on *His* righteousness.

Unless Christ's righteousness isn't perfect enough--it is all that the Bible says we need to see eternal life.

But I think Christ is perfect enough for me. I do not need to suffer for my salvation--Christ suffered for me in my place. Purgatory is an invention.

We are either saved in Christ--or we are not. We cannot be forgiven in Christ, and yet still be dirty...we are forgiven completely or we are not.

I say we are forgiven completely.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 08, 2004.

Yes, we are forgiven completely. But, that still doesn't answer to what I've posted above. If Purgatory is man's invention, then sure. I'm with you 100%. But, Purgatory is not for the damned; it is for the "saved", created by God in order to continue the "cleansing" of the saved. We ask for forgiveness through Christ's blood on the cross. What is to make us think that Purgatory is different. It is still Christ's blood that is "cleansing" the soul. Purgatory is not Heaven. I'm not paying the Catholic Church money or services to get my aquaintences out of Purgatory.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

Jesus taught us to love one another. How can our sins be forgiven, yet the damage done by sin continue to ruin lives? The answer is pennance. The sin is cleansed, but the results are left until corrected. Pennance enables us to correct what we've done.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

God'a Word tells us that it is better to be apart from the body (dead) because to be apart from the body is to be with Christ. Where is Jesus? In heaven.

No mention is made of purgatory in scripture--IT IS DERIVED FROM MISUNDERSTANDING THE WORD OF GOD.

DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT IT IS BETTER TO BE APART FROM THE BODY (DEAD) BECAUSE TO BE APART FROM THE BODY MEANS WE GET TO SUFFER IN FIRE BEFORE WE GO TO BE WITH JESUS?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 08, 2004.

What is Abraham doing betwixt Heaven and Hell?

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

What makes you think he is between heaven and hell?

Abraham is in heaven. Lazarus went to be in heaven as well. The rich man is in hell., and there is a great divide between them and no one can pass from one place to the other....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 08, 2004.

Those in Hell cannot communicate with those in Heaven. Abraham was carrying on a dialogue, yes?

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

Two things..,

First., lets remember that this is a story that jesus was telling to express the permanence of where we go after we die. It was a story expressing how important faith is. Jesus makes the point that if we didn't believe His Word--we wouldn't believe it when he rose from the dead either. And his point was quite clear--based on what we beleive about Jesus determines whether we will spend eternity in the comfort of heaven with all believers--or whether we will spend eternity in torment--separated from God and all those who we loved. I don't even think hell will be a place that we share with other unbelievers--it will be quite lonely.

I am not sure that it is taught in Scripture that we can't be aware of those in hell or vise versa...

But I don't necessarily think that this story is teaching that we will be able to communicate with those in hell and vise-versa. I don't think that that is the jist of the message here..

And even if there is a mid-way place.., nothing in this story indicates or supports the notion of purgatory, which is not taught to be a place of comfort...

-- ("faith01@myway.com), May 08, 2004.

I believe in a purgatory, just not the Roman's view of it. And rod, Pete tried conversing with you but you wouldn't even respond to his arguments so he decided to drop the subject.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 08, 2004.

Hi Faith,

Faith said: Abraham is in heaven. Lazarus went to be in heaven as well.

This is impossible, since Jesus had not yet died.

Rev. 21:27 (NIV) Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Nothing impure can enter heaven. If Jesus' blood covers over our sins and allows us entrance to heaven, how could His as of yet non- existant sacrifice have covered over those who died in the OT? That's why Lazarus is said to be with Abraham, not with God. Those people couldn't enter heaven yet. Otherwise, what's the point of 1 Pet. 3:19, when Jesus goes to preach to the "spirits in prison"?

Faith said: But I think Christ is perfect enough for me. I do not need to suffer for my salvation--Christ suffered for me in my place. Purgatory is an invention.

To deny that we must suffer is to deny the Bible.

1 Peter 3

17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Notice that Christ also suffered, meaning that we too must suffer.

Rom. 8:17 (NIV) Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Here it says that we aren't God's children at all unless we suffer!

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

Faith said: No mention is made of purgatory in scripture--IT IS DERIVED FROM MISUNDERSTANDING THE WORD OF GOD.

My original post showed numerous times when the idea of purgatory is mentioned in Scripture, so this is a false statement. Besides, how do you know for sure that you have the correct understanding of Scripture and we Catholics are the wrong ones? If you wish to make this assertion, please prove your claim that purgatory does not exist using Scripture.

Faith said: God'a Word tells us that it is better to be apart from the body (dead) because to be apart from the body is to be with Christ. Where is Jesus? In heaven. . . . DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT IT IS BETTER TO BE APART FROM THE BODY (DEAD) BECAUSE TO BE APART FROM THE BODY MEANS WE GET TO SUFFER IN FIRE BEFORE WE GO TO BE WITH JESUS?

Paul was referring to himself, and to be apart from the body for him is to be with Christ because he was a Saint who went to heaven. Also, even those who go to purgatory are to be with Christ in heaven in the future. There is not a lot Catholic teaching on purgatory, so we don't know the details about how long it lasts or where it is, if it's even a place or merely a state. God has chosen not to reveal these things directly. But we know what we need to know for now.

Faith said: And even if there is a mid-way place.., nothing in this story indicates or supports the notion of purgatory, which is not taught to be a place of comfort...

I will repost what I already said above about this:

As for this being a place of comfort, this could be in comparison to the horrors of hell. The other alternative is that God showed mercy to those in the waiting place by not inflicting as much suffering upon them as souls would normally face in the state of purgatory, [since they were His followers in the OT times]. Nonetheless, this passage still provides further evidence for a place or state besides heaven and hell.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

Emily, I would differ with the cathechism and Catholic Dogma on their definition of purgatory. 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says [in Matthew 12:32] that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

Purgatory cannot be a place of fire. Cleansing by Fire here is an expression which should not be taken literally.

Example: The burning Bush in Exodus.

Moses took his shoes off in respect of the deity (Yahweh). Moses had killed a man. Yet, God came close to him , to speak to him.

I Agree like David says, that he also beieves in a sort of purgatory, though he doesn't mention how.

I tell you how: It is a place where those who never had a chance to redeem their sins on Earth get a second chance.

This is not a prison where people are tortured. Rather, is like a community service place where people choose to do something for those sins that keep them away from God(Yahweh). (This from a revelation to my brother, summer 1994).

Happy is the man/woman, Faith, when death comes knocking at the door is ready to meet his/her maker!!!!

The Christian Yahwist The Man of Yahweh Why not.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

Emily..,

This goes back to the point that when we suffer--it isn't for the penalty of our sin--or for salvation.., but for the church--for the spreading of the good news, which is that Christ has died in our place and he is risen....

I appreciate your point about Abraham not being in heaven because Christ hadn't died yet.., but it brings me back to the idea that when we die--we pass into eternity. There, everything is accomplished. Because in truth., heaven isn't really established until the end of the age--yet we know Jesus is in heaven right now. I think we need to look at Scripture through God's eyes--He sees from the point of eternity.

Otherwise, we'll start inventing things like *soul sleep* or something...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 08, 2004.

Here is your take, David:

"And rod, Pete tried conversing with you but you wouldn't even respond to his arguments so he decided to drop the subject. "

Here is my take, David:

Pete didn't want to answer my question because he either could not, would not, or realized the error I was finding in his assumed doctrine. All Pete had to do is answer yes or no. He wanted me to fit his doctrine into the Scriptures instead of the other way around. I offered to bow out of the whole conversation, but Pete ran away. I thought that was rather an obvious move by someone who has been cornered. I'm sorry it happened, but that's the way things go sometimes. Jesus has humiliated for His ministry. The least we can do is take a little heat once in awhile. Cyber-space is cyber-space.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

I still haven't received my answer.

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

Oops!

Jesus was humiliated for His ministry.

(The effects of dehydration cause funny things, or is that lack of proof reading my posts?)

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

The case isweak formt he scroptures postred. below i handle three.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 08, 2004.

Isaiah 4 4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

The passage is referign to an imediate punishment. such as the Babylonian captivity, not of Purgetory.

Matthew 18 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Cntext is mising here, his i a parable, for starters.Its not about prugeory.

23. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Its about us forgiving as God forgives.

1 Corinthians 15 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

This is about ressurection, nto purgetry.

These where the most obvious verses, the others have to be forced to read the way you need them to read in order to consrue it.

sorry...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 08, 2004.

Zarove

I've been thinking about dyslexia. I wonder if a spell checker that was color coded would work. If a person types in a word the spell check could spell it back in a color code. For example: red-verb, blue-noun, green-adjective, etc. The colors could also be subdivided further. Example: yellow-inanimate, purple-animated, olive-plant, silver-mineral, etc. And, subdivided colors as to the highest level a person could understand and apply. It might relieve the user from relying on the letter order, but instead give the user a more accurate clue as to the words closest correct spelling. It could be refined to a fool proof system.

....

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.

The Dyslexia Code.

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 09, 2004.

Might I add that some Church fathers didn't even believe in purgatory:

Athenagoras

For if we believed that we should live only the present life, then we might be suspected of sinning, through being enslaved to flesh and blood, or overmastered by gain or carnal desire; but since we know that God is witness to what we think and what we say both by night and by day, and that He, being Himself light, sees all things in our heart, we are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one, and heavenly, not earthly (since we shall abide near God, and with God, free from all change or suffering in the soul, not as flesh, even though we shall have flesh, but as heavenly spirit), or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-46.htm

Clement of Rome

Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him....Thus was he [Paul] removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.... To these men who spent their lives in the practice of holiness, there is to be added a great multitude of the elect, who, having through envy endured many indignities and tortures, furnished us with a most excellent example. Through envy, those women, the Danaids and Dircae, being persecuted, after they had suffered terrible and unspeakable torments, finished the course of their faith with steadfastness, and though weak in body, received a noble reward....Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure from this world; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them....All the generations from Adam even to this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers/ANF-01/clem/clem.html

Irenaeus

Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, such as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which are unspeakable as regards us in our present condition), and that there shall they who have been translated remain until the consummation of all things, as a prelude to immortality....For as the Lord 'went away in the midst of the shadow of death,' where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up into heaven, it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. 'For no disciple is above the Master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master.' As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight to heaven, but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up to heaven; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this privilege.

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/anf01/htm/ix.vii.vi.htm

Aphrahat

For when men die, the animal spirit is buried with the body, and sense is taken away from it, but the heavenly spirit that they receive goes according to its nature to Christ. And both these the Apostle has made known, for he said:-The body is buried in animal wise, and rises again in spiritual wise. The Spirit goes back again to Christ according to its nature, for the Apostle said again:-When we shall depart from the body we shall be with our Lord. For the Spirit of Christ, which the spiritual receive, goes to our Lord....But our faith thus teaches, that when men fall asleep, they sleep this slumber without knowing good from evil. And the righteous look not forward to their promises, nor do the wicked look forward to their sentence of punishment, until the Judge come and separate those whose place is at His right hand from those whose place is at His left....From all these things, understand thou, my beloved, as it has been made certain for thee, that as yet no one has received his reward. For the righteous have not inherited the kingdom, nor have the wicked gone into torment. The Shepherd has not as yet divided His flock. And lo! the workmen enter into the vineyard, and as yet have not received the reward. And lo! the merchants are trading with the money. And as yet their Lord has not come to take the account. And the King has gone to receive the Kingdom, but as yet He has not returned the second time. And those virgins that are waiting the bridegroom are sleeping up to the present time, and are awaiting the cry when they will awake. And the former men who toiled in the faith until the last men shall come, shall not be made perfect....the spirit which the righteous receive, according to its heavenly nature, goes to our Lord until the time of the Resurrection, when it shall come to put on the body in which it dwelt. And at every time it has the memory of this in the presence of God, and looks eagerly for the Resurrection of that body in which it dwelt...The sons of peace remember death; and they forsake and remove from them wrath and enmity. As sojourners they dwell in this world, and prepare for themselves a provision for the journey before them. On that which is above they set their thoughts, on that which is above they meditate; and those things which are beneath their eyes they despise. They send away their treasures to the place where there is no peril, the place where there is no moth, nor are there thieves. They abide in the world as aliens, sons of a far land; and look forward to be sent out of this world and to come to the city, the place of the righteous. They afflict themselves in the place of their sojourning; and they are not entangled or occupied in the house of their exile. Ever day by day their faces are set upwards, to go to the repose of their fathers. As prisoners are they in this world, and as hostages of the King are they kept. To the end they have no rest in this world, nor is their hope in it, that it will continue for ever.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-13/Npnf2-13-38.htm

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.

Zarove,

Thanks for your response - I was hoping someone would directly address the verses I posted.

Zarove said: Isaiah 4 4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

The passage is referign to an imediate punishment. such as the Babylonian captivity, not of Purgetory.

I think there is room for interpretation either way, and like I said, the verses "can arguably show the existence of purgatory, and although they don't all necessarily prove its existence (eg. Micah 7 passage may not refer to someone who died, but it may), they do show that there is Biblical evidence for such a place to exist." I wasn't claiming that all the verses I posted make a definite case for purgatory, but merely that the concept of purging of sins exists in the Bible.

Zarove said: Matthew 18 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Cntext is mising here, his i a parable, for starters.Its not about prugeory.

23. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Its about us forgiving as God forgives.

I included only the part of the context that I thought seemed relevant. You said "this is a parable, for starters.Its not about prugeory." If you apply the principles in this parable, it alludes to purgatory, as I explained previously. You claim that it's not about purgatory, but how do you know?

You said "It is about forgiving as God forgives." I agree. And God forgives, but He also punishes. He is both just and merciful. Purgatory is a testimony to the combination of his justice (punishment for our sins) and mercy (allowing us a way into heaven through cleansing, despite our sins).

Zarove said: 1 Corinthians 15 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

This is about ressurection, nto purgetry.

Ok, but you still did not address the question about why people are baptized for the dead. Can the dead receive benefit from things we do on earth?

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), May 11, 2004.

David,

Those church fathers quotes do not deny purgatory. In fact, this quote from the section you included from Irenaeus seems to support it:

For as the Lord 'went away in the midst of the shadow of death,' where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up into heaven, it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God.

Something you should understand about the church fathers is that Catholics are not bound to agree with everything they wrote. We are only bound to agree with that which is in line with the Bible and/or the Catechism.

Another thing is that the Catholic Church teaches that all Saints and martyrs go straight to heaven (in my understanding).

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 11, 2004.

Emily, sorry that it has taken me so long to get to your thread, I’ve been elsewhere and sometimes nowhere.

You posted Matthew 12:32 and said, "Without purgatory, why would we need to be forgiven in the world to come?"

The Catholic Catechism says, "From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."

I’m not so sure that Jesus is saying some sins are forgiven here on Earth, and others before entering Heaven. He is probably speaking against the Jewish belief that while there were some sins that repentance and the day of atonement would redeem, there were some sins that wouldn’t be redeemed except by death.

The sins we commit in this life, although forgiven, have yet to be officially declared pardoned, because we haven’t stood before the God on judgment day. I think Jesus was saying there is no forgiveness for this upon earth, nor shall there be, or consequently there shall not be a declaration of pardon in the next life. Mark 3:29 says that whoever does this "never has forgiveness—is guilty of an eternal sin."

You posted Revelation 21:27 and said "if we die with sins that Jesus' blood has not covered (since they remain unconfessed), there must be a place for purging us of those sins. This is out of God's mercy, for otherwise He would have to send all of those people to hell, since their sin cannot enter heaven."

Since judgment comes before Heaven, and judgment is where Jesus Christ confesses our name before the Father and we are declared innocent, I don’t see how anything impure will enter. Also, John wrote that those in Christ are continually cleansed by the blood of Jesus. This is why we do not need to be rebaptized after every sin. As long as we remain repentant, our sins are washed away. If someone dies immediately after committing a sin, we cannot assume that this person was not still in a life of repentance. I’d leave that up to God.

You compared Zechariah 9:10-12 with 1 Peter 3:17-22 and wrote, "Here we see how it's possible to suffer both for well doing and evil doing... The "spirits in prison"...were the souls in the OT "waiting place" who had followed God, waiting for Jesus to come to bring redemption and bring them to heaven."

The suffering that Peter is talking about is not purgatory. He is speaking of life sufferings, such as trials and persecutions a Christian might go through as a result of his or her faith. Peter is encouraging Christians that it is better to suffer for Christ than to do evil.

I’m not sure how you concluded that the spirits in prison Jesus preached to were those in the OT waiting place who had followed God. The text expressly states that they "were disobedient... in the days of Noah." So this was before the covenant with Abraham was given and before the Law of Moses was given. Some interpret the spirits here to be referring to the disobedient angels or "sons of God" who became lustful for the women on the earth.

You also added, "we can conclude that baptism gives us the necessary cleansing to be freed from purgatory if we were to die at that moment, since we would be cleansed of original sin.

It is probably this belief that kept the Emperor Constantine from being baptized until he was dying, even though he called himself a Christian for the majority of his reign. Men were afraid of committing a sin after they had been baptized, and so they postponed baptism until just before death (a bad situation for those who died unexpectedly). This was the belief held by Clinics.

I agree with you that in Micah 7, the "darkness" in which he sits could be in reference to a waiting place (not purgatory) but perhaps the grave.

You posted Malachi 3 and said, "God is compared to a ‘refiner's fire.’ This indicates that somehow, we need to be purified or cleaned up... God allows us to have some part in the process of our own purification, when we submit in obedience to Him. Also, we see that the ‘sons of Jacob are not consumed’ if they return to God, which could mean that they do not go to hell."

I don’t see how "we" (Christians) need to fear the judgment (refining) fire. Malachi said the Lord will bring judgment against "the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me [the Lord]."

Notice that he address groups, not individuals ("the sons of Levi," " the sorcerers," "sons of Jacob"). This could mean he refines the Levis by witnessing against the wicked he described, thus only those who have "returned to me [the Lord]" will be left. Example: I want a perfect barrel of apples. I could go through individually and fix whatever apples are bad (a purgatory type scenario), or I could sort through them and toss out the bad ones (a judgment type scenario). I believe this passage from Malachi 7 leans towards the latter.

Matthew 18 actually is a good parable to refute Perseverance of the Saints or Once Saved Always Saved. You followed it up with “The above passage suggests that although God forgives all the servant's ‘debt’ (ie. he obtained salvation), he still must forgive others. He was sent to be tormented, not for eternity, but only ‘till he should pay all that was due unto him.’ This suggests that he will be released at a future time.”

I don’t think you understand how much this servant owed. Verse 24 “And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.” Now, A talent was worth more than fifteen years' wages of a laborer. This servant owed not one but ten thousand talents. It would have taken him at least 150,000 years to pay off this debt. I really have no idea how someone would have gotten this far into debt in those days, and I don’t see how he could pay off his debt while in prison, but it really doesn’t matter. Jesus is making a point. This servant is never going to pay off this debt, nor will he ever escape torture.

I continue to read 1 Corinthians 3 because this, like many other verses, can support Purgatory, but it also doesn’t. We see a man’s work being tested by fire, and the man receiving his reward or suffering loss depending on the sort of work. Is this the verse that the Catholic teaching comes from that a man experiences some sort of discomfort during Purgatory? I don’t see a man suffering fire, but suffering the loss of reward. But that’s only if his work is not proven by fire. In one sense, we could see that the idea of Purgatory is a place of reward and not discomfort at all. Reading 1 Peter also.

You posted the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus from Luke 16, and in reference to the fixed gulf you said, “This is further evidence for the ‘waiting place’ for OT believers, since Christ's death on the cross had not yet happened to allow them to enter heaven. As for this being a place of comfort, this could be in comparison to the horrors of hell. The other alternative is that God showed mercy to those in the waiting place by not inflicting as much suffering upon them as souls would normally face in the state of purgatory.”

Actually, the text doesn’t say that Abraham’s bosom is a place of comfort, but that Lazarus was being comforted. Because of this I don’t see “comfort” as being in comparison to the torment of hell. Further, if Lazarus is in this waiting place (which I’m assuming you to believe it Purgatory), it again rubs against the notion that Purgatory is a place of discomfort.

All of this has gotten me curious again for a Death, Hades, Hell, Abraham’s Bosom, and Heaven study. Maybe we should start a thread on these places, defining and comparing them.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.

"The problem with this [statement by James White] is that Catholics agree with that statement at the beginning about justification, so when he says that the Catholic view of justification 'attack[s]' 'God's sovereign grace,' he is in part attacking his own view." - emily

I know what you mean Emily. I can't say anything though w/out taking this thread off subject, hehe.

Oh correction. When i said, "I believe this passage from Malachi 7 leans towards the latter," this should have been Malachi 3.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.

Luke, thank you so much for your well-thought-out response to me. I really appreciate it. It helped me think about some of these issues more in-depth.

Luke said: Since judgment comes before Heaven, and judgment is where Jesus Christ confesses our name before the Father and we are declared innocent, I don’t see how anything impure will enter.

Purgatory is necessary for unconfessed sins for which Christ's blood does not cover the consequences. We are forgiven eternally, but still required to suffer the consequences. This is the same on earth.

Let's take the example that I found on a website. Let's say that I maliciously break your window. I later come to you in repentance. You forgive me, but I still have to pay it off. So I agree to mow your lawn for the whole summer. I'm sorry for the sin, and you've forgiven me, but I still must suffer the consequences. This is like the idea of purgatory. See this website for a deeper explanation of indulgences and purgatory that elaborates on the example I borrowed from them. Here is an explanation of purgatory by Jimmy Akin, especially for Protestants.

Luke said: Also, John wrote that those in Christ are continually cleansed by the blood of Jesus. This is why we do not need to be rebaptized after every sin. As long as we remain repentant, our sins are washed away.

I think this is a beautiful paragraph with which I agree completely. This idea of being "continually cleansed" by Jesus' blood shows that we must continue living a life of repentance toward our own sins. I think the key phrase that you said is remain repentant.

Luke said: If someone dies immediately after committing a sin, we cannot assume that this person was not still in a life of repentance. I’d leave that up to God.

I agree with leaving that judgement up to God - only He knows the gravity with which people are turning away from Him in their actions. What you mentioned here gets into the differences between mortal and venial sins. Mortal sins are more serious and an outright rejection of God, so the person by the very nature of the sin, cannot be "still in a life of repentance." Venial sins (by their nature) do not involve outright rejection of God, but only a temporary turning away from His principles. Since these sins are less grave, they would not send someone to hell. Witness all the lists in the NT about the types of sinners that "cannot inherit eternal life." This of course assumes that they remain unrepentant, but it also shows that there is a level of differentiation between mortal and venial sins. Those who die in a state of unrepentant venial sin suffer purgatory for the cleansing of their sins in order to enter heaven. Jesus' blood covers their eternal punishment, but since they have not confessed, Christ's blood does not cover the consequences. Hence the need for purgatory.

Luke said: I’m not sure how you concluded that the spirits in prison Jesus preached to were those in the OT waiting place who had followed God. The text expressly states that they "were disobedient... in the days of Noah." So this was before the covenant with Abraham was given and before the Law of Moses was given. Some interpret the spirits here to be referring to the disobedient angels or "sons of God" who became lustful for the women on the earth.

This is a good point, and I will have to examine this further. Do you have a Scripture reference for these "disobedient angels"? I'm not sure what you're talking about. I think it's possible that they followed God but were disobedient on one point (eg. venial sins). However, your point is well-taken and I will look into this.

Luke said: Men were afraid of committing a sin after they had been baptized, and so they postponed baptism until just before death

This was an abuse of the doctrine and contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Immediately following Jesus is required, not postponing it. Also, baptism should be ASAP, not delayed until the end of one's life. I would question the motivations of those who did this, and whether they were sincerely following God even upon their baptism. God will be their judge. Sinning after baptism can still be cleansed by Jesus through confession and repentance.

Luke said: Matthew 18 actually is a good parable to refute Perseverance of the Saints or Once Saved Always Saved.

Well at least we agree on refuting this! lol

Luke said: I don’t think you understand how much this servant owed.... It would have taken him at least 150,000 years to pay off this debt. Jesus is making a point. This servant is never going to pay off this debt, nor will he ever escape torture.

You're right, I didn't know how much that was. However, I think this still begs the question, why didn't Jesus say "this servant is never going to pay off this debt" if that's what He meant? Why imply that he might get out in the future?

I just realized something ironic. It says the servant will not get out "until" he's paid off his debt. This is the same word that Protestants argue shows that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, but I have read that the word "until" in English implies more of a future event than it does in the original Greek. Perhaps it would help to look at the Greek in this passage, but as I do not know the language, that won't work. But I guess if we can say here that "until" does not imply future release, then "until" does not imply a future event in the case of Mary either.

rich man and Lazarus

As for the story about the rich man and Lazarus, my mom suggested that they are all in Purgatory at different levels of pain or comfort. I had never thought of this before, but she said that the rich man cannot be in hell because there is no concern or compassion for others in hell (the absence of God implies the absence of all good things, since God is the source of all good). So how could the rich man feel any compassion toward his brothers?

Luke said: All of this has gotten me curious again for a Death, Hades, Hell, Abraham’s Bosom, and Heaven study. Maybe we should start a thread on these places, defining and comparing them.

Sounds good to me!

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 18, 2004.

Interesting.

“Let's say that I maliciously break your window. I later come to you in repentance. You forgive me, but I still have to pay it off. So I agree to mow your lawn for the whole summer. I'm sorry for the sin, and you've forgiven me, but I still must suffer the consequences. This is like the idea of purgatory.”

For me as a Christian, my sins are like smashing God’s window. I go to him and say, “I broke your window, and I am sorry. I will work to pay it off.” God looks at the window with sadness, but then turns to me and says, “This window is already paid for. This is grace in a nutshell.

This doesn’t mean I can smash windows all I want. Remember Jesus’ words to the woman caught in adultery, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.” Grace is more than unmerited favor. It’s a God-given desire to do his will. This is grace.

The consequences we suffer are punishment, but they are self-inflicted—the results of operating outside of God’s will.

“Witness all the lists in the NT about the types of sinners that ‘cannot inherit eternal life.’ This of course assumes that they remain unrepentant, but it also shows that there is a level of differentiation between mortal and venial sins.”

I suppose my favorite of these lists would be 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. It gives more hope that being thrown into a lake of sulfur.

As for the disobedient angels, I believe this is only a theory. Here is the passage from Genesis 6

“(1)When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, (2)the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. (3)Then the LORD said, ‘My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.’ (4)The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. (5)The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. (6)The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. (7)So the LORD said, ‘I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them.’

It could go both ways, depending on how you look at it. “sons of God” may not be referring to the Nephilim, or it might. And even if it does, that does not necessarily make them angelic beings. The Nephilim appear only one other place, Numbers 13:33. Here, the leader’s of the Israelites are reporting to Moses about the land of Canaan they had explored for 40 days. Starting in v30

“Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses and said, ‘We should go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly do it.’ But the men who had gone up with him said, ‘We can't attack those people; they are stronger than we are.’ And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, ‘The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.’”

Here, it appears that Nephilim are mortal beings, men. But, if only 8 people survived the flood (Noah and his family) and the Nephilim were on the earth before the flood, how would their descendants have survived unless the Nephilim are angelic beings? This could explain their unusual height. We already know about two other types of angels, the cherubs and seraphs. God placed a Cherub to guard the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3, and chose this kind of angel to decorate the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25) A seraph is a creature who chants/sings “holy, holy holy…” before the throne of God (Isaiah 6).

Of course, if the Nephilim are the sons of God of Genesis 6, and they are angels, then we have to wonder about Mark 12:25 which says “When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.” Jesus here says that angels do not marry. The rebuttal would be, “Jesus said that the angels in heaven are not married. The Nephilim are angels, but they left heaven on lust for the women, and so Jesus was not referring to these.” Am I far enough off topic yet? lol

“I think this still begs the question, why didn't Jesus say ‘this servant is never going to pay off this debt’ if that's what He meant? Why imply that he might get out in the future?”

I don’t think Jesus implied the servant would be released. Every Jew would have understood that it was impossible for this servant to ever pay back his debt. Kind of like “When hell freezes over” or “when pigs/cows fly,” Jesus is implying one thing—never.

The master called this servant wicked, and we know where wicked people go. Thus, he wouldn’t have qualified for Purgatory. Jesus said in anger the master threw the servant into prision. This to me can only mean lake of fire, even if Purgatory was a place of purification. I don’t see where the belief that Purgatory is a place of suffering came from.

“they are all in Purgatory at different levels of pain or comfort. I had never thought of this before, but she said that the rich man cannot be in hell because there is no concern or compassion for others in hell (the absence of God implies the absence of all good things, since God is the source of all good). So how could the rich man feel any compassion toward his brothers?”

I don’t see the rich man being compassionate. I see him as concerned. Granted that they are similar in some regardes, I feel they are different also. Compassion is like a feeling of empathy, while concern is worry. The rich man is worried that his brothers will fall into the same fate as he.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 21, 2004.

Here are the earliest and clearest quotes I can find from the fathers concerning purgatory, though there is much much more:

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,6:14(post A.D. 202),in ANF,II:504

"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones(1 Cor.,3);but also wood and hay and stubble,what do you expect when the soul shall be seperated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God;or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials;for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature,but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble.It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our trangressions and then returns to us the rewardof our great works." Origen,Homilies on Jeremias,PG 13:445,448(A.D. 244),in CE,577

****

This really boils down to the issue of justification. Luther taught that we are "snow covered dung" and never will be anything more than "snow covered dung," so that we wear a cloak provided by Christ which hides our sinfulness, i.e, "Imputed righteousness"

The Church believes in actual cleansing or "purging", that we are literally and actually cleansed, not just once at the beginning of Christian life, but throughout our lives . . . we go from "glory to glory." This is called "intrinsic righteousness."

Here is a brief, but I think accurate synopsis of the differences between the two camps (taken from presenttruthmag.com)

Protestants believe to justify means to account as righteous. Catholics believe to justify means to make righteous.

Protestants believe justification comes by the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Catholics believe justification comes by an infusion of grace.

Protestants believe the grace of God in Christ makes the believer acceptable and pleasing in God's sight. Catholics believe sanctifying grace in the believer makes him acceptable to God.

Protestants believe man is justified by an extrinsic righteousness (a righteousness wholly without). Catholics believe man is justified by an intrinsic righteousness (a righteousness which God puts within man).

Protestants believe God justifies the ungodly who believe. Catholics believe God justifies only those who are born again.

Protestants believe justification is God's verdict upon man in the Person of Christ. Catholics believe justification is God's regenerating act in man.

Protestants believe the sinner is justified by Christ's imputed righteousness alone. Catholics believe the sinner cannot be justified by imputed righteousness alone, but by righteousness poured into his heart.

Protestants believe justification enables God to treat the sinner as if he were just. Catholics believe justification means that the sinner is really made just.

Protestants believe the believer is pronounced righteous because Christ, his Substitute, is found righteous before God. Catholics believe the believer is pronounced righteous because the Spirit of grace has made him righteous.

Protestants believe justification is a declaration of the fact that Jesus, who stands in man's place, is righteous. Catholics believe justification is a declaration of what is a fact in the man himself.

Protestants believe justification is so infinite that it cannot be reduced to an intrahuman experience. Catholics believe justification is an act of grace within man.

Protestants believe justification is received by faith alone. Catholics believe justification comes by faith which has become active by charity.

Protestants believe justification enables God to bring regeneration and sanctification to the heart of the believer. Catholics believe regenerating grace enables God to justify the believer.

Protestants believe sin still remains in man's nature after justification and regeneration. Catholics believe justification wholly eradicates sin; only concupiscence and weakness remain.

Protestants believe the believer can claim no merit for good works performed by God's enabling grace. Good works are acceptable only through the mediation of Christ's imputed righteousness, which covers all human deficiencies in the good works of the believer. Catholics believe sanctifying grace within the believer makes good works acceptable to God.

Protestants believe at all times the believer is accepted only in the Person of Christ, his Substitute. Catholics believe sanctifying grace with in the believer makes him acceptable to God.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 21, 2004.

Click me

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a- fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00C0xU

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 21, 2004.

Origen believed in a purification after death, similar to the Roman Catholic concept of Purgatory in some ways, but also different in some ways. Philip Schaff writes:

"Origen, following in the path of Plato, used the term 'purgatorial fire,' by which the remaining stains of the soul shall be burned away; but he understood it figuratively, and connected it with the consuming fire at the final judgment, while Augustin and Gregory I. transferred it to the middle state." (section 156).

Jacques Le Goff comments:

"In this vision of the other world [advocated by Clement of Alexandria and Origen] a number of ingredients of the true Purgatory are lacking, however. No clear distinction is made between time in Purgatory and the time of the Last Judgment. This confusion is so troublesome that Origen is forced both to expand the end of the world and to collapse it into a single moment, while at the same time making its prospect imminent. Purgatory is not really distinguished from Hell, and there is no clear awareness that Purgatory is a temporary and provisional abode. The responsibility for postmortem purification is shared by the dead, with their weight of sin, and God, the benevolent judge of salvation; the living play no part. Finally, no place is designated as the place of purgatory. By making the purifying fire not only 'spiritual' but also 'invisible,' Origen prevented the imagination of the faithful from gaining a purchase on it." (The Birth of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 57)

In one place, Origen comments:

"I think, therefore, that all the saints who depart from this life will remain in some place situated on the earth, which holy Scripture calls paradise, as in some place of instruction, and, so to speak, class-room or school of souls, in which they are to be instructed regarding all the things which they had seen on earth, and are to receive also some information respecting things that are to follow in the future, as even when in this life they had obtained in some degree indications of future events, although 'through a glass darkly,' all of which are revealed more clearly and distinctly to the saints in their proper time and place. If any one indeed be pure in heart, and holy in mind, and more practised in perception, he will, by making more rapid progress, quickly ascend to a place in the air, and reach the kingdom of heaven, through those mansions, so to speak, in the various places which the Greeks have termed spheres, i.e., globes, but which holy Scripture has called heavens; in each of which he will first see clearly what is done there, and in the second place, will discover the reason why things are so done: and thus he will in order pass through all gradations, following Him who hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, who said, 'I will that where I am, these may be also.' And of this diversity of places He speaks, when He says, 'In My Father's house are many mansions.' He Himself is everywhere, and passes swiftly through all things; nor are we any longer to understand Him as existing in those narrow Limits in which He was once confined for our sakes, i.e., not in that circumscribed body which He occupied on earth, when dwelling among men, according to which He might be considered as enclosed in some one place." (De Principiis, 2:11:6)

---- Jason E.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 21, 2004.

I suppose that makes me partial catholic, or perhaps just a pseudo- protestant.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

Luke said: I suppose that makes me partial catholic, or perhaps just a pseudo- protestant.

To what are you referring when you say this, Luke?

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

The synopsis supplied by Gail.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.