To my understanding, Muslims do not believe that Christ actually died on the cross. They see him as a great prophet, but not truly God. They see Christians as apostates who put a prophet between us and God. They also believe the Scriptures have been twisted by the followers of Christ. I suppose they might even see Christians as polytheists who elevate a prophet to godhood, since they do not believe in the Trinity.

My questions is, when speaking with Muslims, how do we support the idea that: 1. Christ is God 2. He actually died on the cross for our sins 3. The Bible is without error

Quoting the Bible has obvious limitations when Muslims believe that it has been twisted and is not true.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 10, 2004

Answers

I do not know much about the Muslim religion, but I suppose an option would be to prove the historical accuracy of that which they deny-- the gospels. If they acknowledge at least that Jesus was a real person, you automatically have a leg to stand on. There are scholars who devote their work and time into proving not only the historical Jesus, but the revealing truth of the gospels thereof. I can only think of one name off the top of my head, William Craig. Maybe some of his work is published on the internet for easy access... Easy if you aren't on dial-up.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 10, 2004.

Thanks for that name Luke.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 10, 2004.

Scripture is the only way to open their eyes--because the Word has the power to convict even the hardest of hearts.

Show them Zechariah 12:10:

Mourning for the One They Pierced...,

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."

(When did they pierce God?)

And Revelation 1:17-18

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

(Rev. 1:18 is particulary powerful when it comes to attesting to the divinity of Christ. Once you get them to agree that it is God speaking in this verse--[ie..;the First and Last, Begining from End-- Alpha and Omega etc]...ask, "When did God die?")

Muslims do respect even the Holy Bible to some degree. It is a good place to start. It is up to them to prove that the Scriptures have been altered.

-- ("faith01@myway.com), May 10, 2004.

Faith,

I agree that the Bible is a good starting place since Muslims do consider Christians as a People of the Book and have some respect for our Scriptures.

However, Muslims revere the Quaran and see it as the Truth just as Christians revere the Holy Bible. If there is a contradiction between the two, they claim that the Bible has been altered and that the Quran is the true message of God. How can we support our view that the Bible has not been altered and that the Quran is not necessarily inspired by God?

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 10, 2004.

All I can say is rely on the power of God's Holy Word and send it out...

God promises us that it will not return void or empty.

Regardless of whether you *think* they will listen--the Word Word of God is your answer. Use it with confidence.

I led a freind right out of the Jehovah Witnesse's cult by using it...

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 10, 2004.

try answering-islam.org

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.

Looks like a great site David. Thanks.

Faith, I hear you. Thanks for your input.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 10, 2004.

Andy

if they won't believe the Bible, why not ask them to explain why the Quran contradicts itself?

when Mohammed the "prophet" first had these "visions" in the cave, what was written down was terribly conciliatory towards other faith groups - he needed thos for his manmade faith to survive. his only supporters were his family who fought to protect family and not his ideas. i think he started with a right old rabble.

however, as the book had its intended consequence, military and political success, he then continued to claim to have inspired visions and changed the book so that the religion became very intolerant towards other faith systems.

later written verses directly contradict other verses - although no- one knows for sure the order in which they were written down.

i think this why the debate now rages as to whether the Al Kaida crowd are actually allowed to do what they do in the name of Allah. the answer depends on where you look in the book.

that won't of course make a Muslim become Christian but you could ask why it is not possible to do this to the Bible, which is 100% consistent throughout, albeit sometimes difficult to interpret.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 10, 2004.

One moment the Satanic Verses are inspired; the next, they are not to be accepted and ,therefore, ignored. That's a faith builder...huh?

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@lyahoo.com), May 10, 2004.

Good points. Thanks Ian.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 10, 2004.

look guys,

the quran is nonsense, the bible is nonsense, what are you guys wasting your time debating which one is nearest the truth for, when they are both nonsense, deep down inside you know i am right. why dont you just forget that nonsense and get on with your life. the world would be a much happier and safer place without any of this rubbish.

andy

-- andy (andysyms@hotmail.com), October 10, 2004.

Hi andy,

the quran is nonsense, the bible is nonsense

I can't speak for the Quran, but why do you say the Bible is nonsense?

the world would be a much happier and safer place without any of this rubbish

Do you mean the "rubbish" of debate and discussion, the "rubbish" of the "I'm right and your wrong" mentality, or the "rubbish" of the Bible?

I disagree that the world would be a better place without the Bible. The moral and spiritual truths in the Bible have made the world a better place when people actually live out those principles.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 11, 2004.

Hi Andy, the only thing rubbish in this thread is my last post, i offer my sincere apologies to you and anyone else i might of offended. i found this forum at the end of a very bad day when i felt that the world was against me hence my stupid, angry post. im sorry.

I dont follow the Quran or the Bible and find it hard to believe in any kind of God, but i do believe in respecting other peoples views and religions. which makes me even more ashamed of my last post.

i'm not very good at saying what i mean sometimes and i actually agree with you that "The moral and spiritual truths in the Bible have made the world a better place when people actually live out those principles". i dont think the bible is nonsense, its just not for me right now.

what i do not like is religious people who are intolerant of religions other than thier own, or as you put it the "im right your wrong mentality".

There is now and has been throughout history so much killing in the name of religion. if a person has faith in any religion i think this is great and he/she should be allowed to shout it from the rooftops if so desired, but it is when they try and force thier beliefs on others or are intolerant of other religions that there is a problem.

this is what i think is nonsense.

i hope i have explained my self a bit better than before and once again

i apologise

-- andy (andysyms@hotmail.com), October 11, 2004.

No problem andy. Thanks for clarifying your post. :-)

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 11, 2004.

BTW - Hope you have a better day. I've had a few of those bad ones myself.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 11, 2004.

"what i do not like is religious people who are intolerant of religions other than thier own, or as you put it the "im right your wrong mentality". "

I'll drink to that!

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 12, 2004.

"what i do not like is religious people who are intolerant of religions other than thier own, or as you put it the "im right your wrong mentality"

depends upon what is meant. if this requires religious indifference, then "no", sorry.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), October 12, 2004.

When your beliefs are directly opposed to mine, is there some way I can say " I am right" without saying "you are wrong"? And if I can't say "I am right", is there any reason for holding the beliefs I hold??

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 12, 2004.

Oh, they can be very wrong and I can sit at the table with them and still enjoy a fine meal. One of us will surely be lost. Hopefully, the lost person may find some truth, as we both chew on an excellently prepared dinner. I can tolerate his presence, but not his beliefs, if they are contrary to the truth.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 12, 2004.

Obviously, Jesus did not tolerate false beliefs, but He did sit with the lost and dined. His presence on earth was for the benefit of the lost.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 12, 2004.

That is why Christian Yahwists will succeed where other Christian Trinitarians have failed: conversion of Muslims.

We don't have to tell them they are wrong about God, but how they must deal with the rest of humanity.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 12, 2004.

"We don't have to tell them they are wrong about God, but how they must deal with the rest of humanity. "

???????

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), October 12, 2004.

Ian,

There is only one God: Allah (Muslims) and Muhammad is his messenger

Shema Israel, Yahweh (Adonai) eloheinu Yahweh (Adonai) ehad.- Jewish, and Moses gave us the law.

There is one God: Yahweh -Christian Yahwists and Jesus is the way to salvation.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 12, 2004.

Elpidio--a real true comparrison of the Muslim God and the God of the Judeo/Christian people reveals that they cannot be the same God.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 12, 2004.

i understand yr point Elpidio. my point is this - do you believe that God spoke to Mohammed?

if so, where did it all go wrong?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), October 13, 2004.

Most of the time, Ian, God (Yahweh) doesn't speak to you directly. Only twice (July 23, 2000 and october 2000)he has done it with me. With my wife he spoke once, on December 1, 2003.

In most cases he sends his messengers (some people call them angels) to warn you or tell you stuff. For me this began in October 1986. With my mother in August 1985. With my wife on February 1991. With my brother in 1987. With my sister in 2003. With my daughter in 2002.

So did Allah (Yahweh) speak to Muhammad? No, but the messengers did. Muhammad was an illiterate young man. There have been many illiterate young people called by God like Joan of Arc.

But those who God (Yahwhe) wants to leave a lasting impression are always literate.

Joseph,Moses, Samuel, Nathan-Abiathar-and David,, Solomon, Isaiah, Baruch and Jeremiah,...John Mark and Luke (For Jesus and his disciples), Paul,....

That is where the problem lies with Muhammad. His followers distorted his message since they were not literate on the Jewish-Christian scriptures.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 13, 2004.

you have inspited me Elp to start some threads about the Angels.

this is one of the first prayers i ever learned.

"Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom God's love commits me here, ever this day, be at my side to light and guard, to rule and guide."

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), October 15, 2004.

As is said in Spanish, as taught to me by my mother, who now, also believes in Yahweh,

"Angel de mi guarda , mi dulce compañía, no me desampares, ni de noche ni de día."

My wife had a dream yesterday October 14, 2004 dealing with something related.

She saw danger for my little children. She saw two huge dog looking creatures guarding each one of them.

Not only I have talked to Yahweh, Ian, my wife also. My mother and her spoke to Jesus even before I did. My mother in 1985, my wife in 1999.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

Elpidio..,

You have still never said exactly how it is that you can be sure that it is Jesus you have talked to., and not a deceiving spirit????

Since this spirit denies Jesus according to the Scriptures--then what is your measuring rod??

Just your opinion???

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 15, 2004.

The same thing happened to Saul (Paul) of Tarsus on his Way to Damascus, faith. He never talked to Jesus. So when the horse threw him down, in his unconcious state he saw a man h did not recognize saying to him why do you persecute me? See Acts and Galatians.

Yet, even though Paul never was a disciple of Jesus, Protestants and most Christians consider him the champion of Christianity.

While the ideas of the Ebionites, Jesus disciples became absolete for 1900 years until Jehovah's witnesses, Holy name, Yahwists, and Modern Ebionites and Messianists brought them back.

God Yahweh and his Son Jesus never lied to me. I was given a sign about not raining hard for 3 years where I live. It happened. In October 2003 it rained so hard one day that many people died in the San bernardino Mountains. I was also told I was going to be in a place where there were Protestants and a few Catholcs (3 or 4 ). It happend when david Ortiz allowed me to join the Ask Jesus Forum.

Back then, only James El Greco(not stincat), Rod, Gail ( a Catholic Covert),and later Ian were the main Catholic contributors in 2003.

So two components of my dream from July 23, 2000 already came true.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

Faith asks:

"Since this spirit denies Jesus according to the Scriptures--then what is your measuring rod?? "

Well, evidently, this spirit does not subscribe to "Sola Scriptura". I have never met this spirit, so I can only listen to what Elpidio says. Perhaps it isn't an issue of who the spirit is or is not. Perhaps it is an issue of believing what Elpidio has witnessed in his life. Afterall, when it comes to Scriptures, we all tend to believe what Saul eventually preached as St. Paul. Do we dare question St. Paul's experiences? The question is: How can Elpidio and St. Paul be the same in agreement about what Scriptures teach?

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

That's true, Rod.

Saul (Paul) never preached the Virgin birth, never said Jesus rose himself, but that God rose him, he always addressed his letters with salutations using God and Jesus separately.

Paul still lived as a Jew. He was never convicted of heresy, like claiming Jesus was God Yahweh when he was arrested many times by the Jews, even when he confronted the High Priest before he was sent to Rome around 60 AD.

He even entered the Temple to worship there. If Jesus disciples claimed to have seen Jesus after he died. No one else saw him. So we don't even have eyewitness testimony about Jesus resurrection from those who were not his disciples.

Yet we believe Jesus rose from the dead.

I believe that Jesus and Yahweh still talk to people, even today. Just like they have talked to my mother, my wife, and me, they will also talk to others.

When Elijah complained to Yahweh he was alone as a prophet in the Kingdom of Israel, Yahweh told him there were also other prophets he was sustaining, who had not worshipped the Cananite Gods like Baal.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

Elpidio,

Saul (Paul) never preached the Virgin birth

Did Paul ever deny the Virgin birth? Is there proof he explicitly rejected the idea that Jesus is God?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 16, 2004.

Yes, Andy.

Take a look at Romans ch.1 Romans - Chapter 1

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

Paul calls Jesus God's son stemming from the family of King david according to ther flesh, that is from a physical union, through sexual relations between Joseph, descended from King David from the tribe of Judah, and Mary his wife, which according to Luke mught be descended from Aaron from the tribe of Levi. If you check all the geneologies, they are always given through the father, not the mother.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Here paul states that Jesus was called Son of God because of his obedience after he rose from the dead, not because God incarnated inside of Mary.

Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Paul always greets people with the words God (the father) and his Son Jesus (Christ), which shows he always distinguised between the 2.

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

As you can see from the previous quotation, the Apostle Paul sated that Jesus came from a human sexual union, Andy S.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 16, 2004.

-- (bold@off.com), October 16, 2004.

The problem--Elpidio.,

Is that you cannot separate out things from the Bible to say what you want to hear--and discard the things that prove you wrong.

Paul's ministry was different from that of the gospel writers.

It would have been redundant for Paul to repeat everything that the gospels already revealed about Jesus. Even Jesus is recorded as having said that he raised himself--yet we know that God raised Jesus. So what should that reveal to you., especially when you harmonize the entire Bible?

The Bible is a beautifully woven tapestry--a revelation from God. It is one story--His story....from Genesis to Revelation. Scripture interprets Scripture.

This is why you are like a man racing down a river in a boat without his paddles. The only way to know whether a spirit is from God or not- -is to check what this spirit reveals with God's Holy written Word. If it denies what God has revealed--then it is not of God. If it denies that Jesus is God--then this is a deceiving spirit.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 16, 2004.

"Paul's ministry was different from that of the gospel writers. "

Huh? What are you trying to say , Faith? He wore different clothes? If St. Paul's work was different from the Gospel writers, I'd like to know.

The Heretic..The Hysteric

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.

Elpidio,

I can see if you take those verses alone how you can make the case that Paul did not believe the Virgin birth and the divinity of Jesus. However, when you take other books of Scripture like Luke (e.g.,Luke 3:23), John (e.g., John 8), Revelations, and other writings of Paul like Phillipians 2:5-11 (cf Is 45:18-23), the case can be made that Christians believed in both the Virgin birth and the divinity of Jesus. Is there any evidence that there was argument between the apostles and Paul as to these truths about Christ? I don't see where he explicitly rejects either the Virgin birth or the divinity of Jesus.

Paul's writings in Romans 1 harmonize well with the Trinitarian concept of three persons in one God as well as the Incarnation. I do see that if you deny the Trinitarian God that it then follows that Romans Chapter 1 supports that Jesus was not equal with God and thus had to be born of Joseph and Mary. However, this contradicts other verses of Scripture. That is why I do not see that this is proof that Paul rejected the Virgin birth and divinity of Christ. He could have written the same words if he believed in both the Virgin birth and the Divinity of Jesus.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 17, 2004.

Elpidio,

I'm beginning to think that we can each use the same verses in Scripture to support our very different doctrines. That's why I think the church is so imnportant and is described as the "pillar and foundation of the truth."

Did you get your ideas about Jesus from reading Scripture, or did you form your beliefs and see then support in Scripture for them? I'm curious how you came about your beliefs. What impact did your dreams have on determining that Jesus is not divine? You've probably said this many times so if you could point to a thread that explains it, I'll check that out.

I am curious how you went from basic Trinitarian doctrine to denying the Incarnation and the Virgin birth. Thanks.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 17, 2004.

Dearest rod..,

The disciples who wrote the gospels--were revealing the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. These gospels reveal Jesus' ministry of salvation in Him. This is the foundation of Christianity...

Paul, on the other-hand., picks up where the gospel leave off and begins his ministry of church building...

This is why Paul doesn't mention Virgin births or much of what the gospels have already revealed.

Paul works on *Christ is Risen*....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 17, 2004.

Because, up until now, Andy, I cannot find proof that those who compiled our books,...participated in councils,...were full of the Holy Spirit.

Even in a Papal election there is such thing as the Spirit choosing the Pope. I don't know ever happening.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.

What kind of proof are you looking for Elpidio?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 19, 2004.

There has never ever been an ecumenical council to decide on the books of the New and Old Testaments (where Roman, Orthodoc, syriac, Chaldean, Malabarese, Coptic, Armenian, Anglican-Episcopelian, Ethiopian, Old , Society of Pius X,...) Catholics, Protestants (Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Reformed...), New Protestants (Churches of Christ, Disciples,...), Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Holy name (Assemblieds of Yahweh,..)Yahwists, Ebionites, ...and Christian Yahwists have been sitting together to decide on them.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

Hi, cud u plz explain ur god to me coz i'm confused. Who do u believe god is?.

-- katia (weirdo_katia@hotmail.com), December 07, 2004.

Yes, Katia.

Yahweh, the God of the Universe is a light-self-sustaing , creating spirit. He emits light like the Sun. I saw him in a night vision in July 23, 2000.I also saw Jesus there. Yahweh appeared again in October 2000. . Yahweh also appeared to my wife in December 1, 2003.Jesus has appeared to my wife since 1999.

Jesus on the other hand is flesh amd blood like us.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 07, 2004.

"Jesus on the other hand is flesh amd blood like us."

what does that prove Elpidio?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 08, 2004.

Elpidio - to be more precise, what could that ever disprove?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 08, 2004.

That proves Ian that if Jesus was accepted by God Yahweh being a mortal like us, then, salvation is 100% possible.

Some of my old Catholic friends I had in the 1980s told me they would not believe in a Jesus who wasn't God himself. Why? Because God shares our suffering!!!!

They don't know God Yahweh!!! You can't punish a Spirit like God Yahweh's!!!

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 08, 2004.

Two quick things. One, God (Yahweh) and Jesus Christ are the same being. But of course to understand this you can't use math but metaphysics.

Secondly, the Muslims reject the idea of Jesus being the second person of the trinity because they reject as metaphysically IMPOSSIBLE that God could be triune. They do so not for theological reasons but for philosophical ones. Therefore in order to convert them, you need to have a good grasp of Aristotelian metaphysics as they certainly (or used to) learn it in their great school in Qom, Iran.

For the rest of us, it should be fairly understandable that where as there are 6 billion individual human persons who share the same nature, analogously it is not absolutely impossible for the single being (the "What") of God to be a community of 3 distinct persons (the "who").

Some claim that individuality in humans is due to our being material beings (and then of course, angelic creatures are individuals as each of them is its own species)...they think therefore that for there to be a trinity it would necessarily mean the Father is some different order than the Son and Holy Spirit.

However as the great Fathers has written this doesn't logically follow as a matter of course since the very idea of Persons requires the concept of relationship.

For God to be personal at all - to have the capacity both to create personal beings and to have relationships with them, he would himself need to have some relationship within the "godhead" as the principle of cause and effect mandates that the effect (or creature) can not be greater than the cause.

So if God was solitary, and not triune, it would be difficult to see how this "thing" could also be truly a person, a "who" whom we can all relate to.

But since we know from revelation and scripture (distinct) that God is personal, it follows that this who must - since his existence pre- ceeded all else, must have a relationship within his very nature.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 09, 2004.

The problem Joe, from physics, is how can a physical body contain a radioactive body like Yahweh's.

Even Moses was radioactive after speaking to Yahweh(See Exodus). So a physical body will radiate spme of Yahweh's energy.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 09, 2004.

Elpidio

The Hypostatic Union will never cease.

isn't that just a mystery as much as so many other things are mysteries.

science is about rationalising mysteries - formulating rules that allow us to generalise.

if we use "rules of thumb" in science, how can we put God in a box?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 09, 2004.