there is no god. its proven.

-- * (*@*.com), May 13, 2004

Answers

Actually, no its not. And you woudl think if it where, you would post the proof, rather than make a lame "their is no god, its proven" comment.

Your just an idiot who wants to stir trouble. Also, its God, cap G, not god. It is a proper noun, and diliberatly insuting the concept isnt cool, just lame.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 13, 2004.

I would love to see someone prove that nothing actually exists.

Idiots do exist, though.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

You are right @.com :God's existence cannot be proven by science.

Jesus existence can be proven. But he is not God. Even though Jesus never wrote a book, even though his life was cut short, even though his enemies erased all existence of him...

because many others we accept as existing did not write books either: Budha, Muhammad, John the Baptist, Socrates,....

....yet we know they existed because those who were influenced by them wrote about them.

Yet, science canot prove God doesn't exist either.

The reasons: Of what materials is God composed? Do we know all the matter, anti-mater, photons, ...of the universe?

What about dreams which come true if we are only matter?

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

Jesus is God, Elpidio...God tells us this.

Zechariah 12:10:

Mourning for the One They Pierced:

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

And there's this in Revelation 1:17-18:

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

We know that this is God speaking--First and Last, Begining from the End, Alpha and Omega--the Living One--yet he says he was dead.

When did God die, Elpidio??????

There is only one time that God died--and it was upon that cross.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 13, 2004.

Faith,

Good point - that Revelation verse is great!

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

Faith and Emily, I disagree:

Strong's Number 01856 matches the Hebrew daqar

1) to pierce, thrust through, pierce through

a) (Qal) to pierce, run through

For the unrelated Greek word for 1856 (exotheo) And I will pour [08210] shaphak upon the house [01004] bayith of David, [01732] David and upon the inhabitants [03427] yashab of Jerusalem, [03389] Y@ruwshalaim the spirit [07307] ruwach of grace [02580] chen and of supplications: [08469] tachanuwn and they shall look [05027] nabat upon me they have pierced, [01856] daqar and they shall mourn [04553] micepd for him, as one mourneth [05594] caphad for [his] only [03173] yachiyd [son], and shall be in bitterness [04843] marar for him, as one that is in bitterness [04843] marar for [his] firstborn. [01060] b@kowr

Notice that Upon me is not in Hebrew. This is a mistranslation. The next sentence says mourn for him. So how can upon me be reconciled with him.

Why is there an upon me? Because the Greek Septuagint uses pros me upon me.

Antoher example: Num 25:8 And he went 0935 after 0310 the man 0376 of Israel 03478 into the tent 06898, and thrust 01856 both 08147 of them through, the man 0376 of Israel 03478, and the woman 0802 through

Can you see there is no upon me?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

Maybe the Alpha and Omega don't refer to Jesus Faith and Emily. See Revelation 4 and 5.

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. ....

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

So if the lamb(Jesus), from the tribe of Juda, from the root of David, takes the book from the hand of the one sitting on the throne (Yahweh), then how could that be if he is God himself?

For any trinitarian verse, Emily and faith, there are 10 which show Jesus is not God.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

PS: Rod and david, you were too fast for me to cancel the italics.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

David, I have a question about this post of yours:

OFF

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 13, 2004.

In the source code, you typed [/em]. What is that? Thanks.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

Emily,

There are two ways to make italics. One way it the traditional "<"i">" (without quotations) and "<"em">" (w/out quotations). the "/" before the "i" and "em" close the italics command.

Here is a good html cheat sheet. http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/reference/html_cheatsheet/

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 13, 2004.

Elpidio--

It is clear that there are times when Jehovah God is doing the speaking in Revelation. And there are times when it is clearly Jesus. And it is also clear that they are one and the same. We understand that the Alpha and Omega and the First and Last and the Begining from the End--all refer to God. Just look into the Old Testament for confirmation about that.

All your fancy twisting and denying cannot change Revelation 1:18, where it is God speaking and he says that he died.

So I ask again--"When did God die?"

The fact that God says he died--proves he is also Jesus. And the fact that Jesus can say he is the Alpha and Omega--makes it pretty clear to me just who God is. Throw in Zechariah 12:10 and Isaiah 53---and we start to see the revelation quite clearly.

"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." Rev 22:12-16

****************

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. (sounds like Zechariah 12:10 hmm?)

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 1:7-8

(P.S.I have no clue what the heck you did with Zechariah 12:10--but I know the translation is acurate.)

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 14, 2004.

I just did, faith:

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

God (Yahweh) wasn't killed. The lamb(Jesus) was.

The Greek Septuagint has upon me, pros me. Hebrew is only one word. As I showed to you, it wasn't translated as upon me in the other verses.

They have led to you all these years, faith!!!

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.

I don't follow you Elpidio....

All I know is that Revelation 1:18 is Jehovah God speaking.

Can you prove it is not?

-- ("faith01@myway.com), May 14, 2004.

Elpidio,

I think I understand what your are saying about Zec 12:10 and the words "upon me." You are saying that "upon me" is in the Greek Septuagint, but not in the original Hebrew writing.

Where did the Hebrew translation come from and why or how could the translator make a mistake like that? Is the Hebrew you are quoting from the original text?

Faith

Why couldn't Rev 1:18 be Jesus speaking?

Rev 1:12-18

12: Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,

13: and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden girdle round his breast;

14: his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; his eyes were like a flame of fire,

15: his feet were like burnished bronze, refined as in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters;

16: in his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth issued a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

17: When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,

18: and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden girdle round his breast;

This sounds like Jesus to me. Don't the robe and golden girdle, or sash, represent the clothing of a high priest? Jesus is the eternal high priest.

from his mouth issued a sharp two-edged sword,

Could this be the sword of truth that issued/issues from Jesus, the Word of God?

I am not arguing to make the case that Jesus is not God. I just always thought of this passage as referring to Christ. But then, Revelation is so full of symbolism and layers of symbolism, I can see where this figure could be God the Father also.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 14, 2004.

Start with Revelation 1:8--where we see God speaking...

It is after-all a revelation.., the revelation that Jesus is God.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Who is speaking here:

Revelation 21:1-7

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

Obviously that is God speaking as well.

Then we see the same God here: Rev 22:12-15

"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

He then reveals that He is Jesus: in verse 16

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

So who is speaking here?: Rev 1:17-18

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

This is the very thing that proves that Jesus is God. I don't argue that Jesus didn't say what is said in Rev 1:18--I argue that this is God speaking.

-- (""faith01@myway.com"), May 14, 2004.

Now that I look at the posts again Faith, I see we are actually saying the same thing about Rev 1:12-18. I guess that's expected, since we're both Trinitarians. Sorry I misunderstood your point.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 14, 2004.

Revelation 1 states that Jesus has made us priests for God his father. Thus, Jesus again is not God, Faith.

Re:1:5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Re:1:6: And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen

God and the lamb are in the throne.

Re 2:3: And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

The Heavenly host only worship God (Yahweh), not the lamb:

Re:7:11: And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Re:7:12: Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. Re:7:13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Re:7:14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Re:7:17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

The redeeemed have God's name, the father of the lamb(Jesus) on their foreheads:

Re:14:1: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Re:14:2: And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:Re:7:10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Re:14:3: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Re:14:4: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Re:19:4: And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne,saying, Amen; Alleluia. Re:19:5: And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. Re:19:6: And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Re:19:7: Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. ... Re:19:9: And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Worship is to God (Yahweh alone), Jesus testimony:

Re:19:10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The Christian Yahwist

The man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.

So faith,

Can you see my faith is not like that of your friend you took out of the Jehovah's witness church? (I don't like the word cult for them since they no longer rely on a cult of personality for either Russel and Rutherford the founders of the movement.)

My faith is in Yahweh, the one who was , who is, who will be. The eternal.

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.

Elpidio..,

Would you address the verses I cited, rather than trying to divert attention away from my very valid point that proves Jesus and God are one in the same?

Also--if those verses aren't enough for you, then how about addressing this?:

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

The Father? (Romans 6:4)

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

The Son? (John 2:19-21)

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body.

(John 10:17,18)?

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

The Holy Spirit? (Romans 8:11)

"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you."

Or God? (Acts 3:26)

"When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

******************************

Who does the Bible say is God? The Father (Ephesians 4:6)? The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1; 20:28)? The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3,4)? Or God (Deuteronomy 4:35; Isaiah 45:18)?

Who created the world? The Father (Ephesians 3:9-14; 4:6)? The Son (Colossians 1:16-17;John 1:1-3)? The Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30)? Or God (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 11:3)?

Who saves and regenerates man? 1 Peter 1:3; John 5:21; 4:14; John 3:6; Titus 3:5; or 1 John 3:9.

Who justifies man? Jeremiah 23:6;2 Cor. 5:19; Romans 5:9; 10:4; 2 Cor 5:19,21; 1 Cor 6:11; Gal 5:5; Roman's 4:6; 9:33.

Who sanctifies man? Jude 1; Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:2; Exodus 31:13.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 14, 2004.

I am not trying to evade your Bible quotes, faith.

You also did the same to me.

We are now off topic. Can we prove God's existence through science.

Maybe we can start a new thread called : Did God died?

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.

Science really cannot prove anything. Can it prove rainbow colored Unicorns didn't exist 500 years ago? No.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 14, 2004.

We are off-topic because you put us off-topic right away with this comment at the very begining..

"You are right @.com :God's existence cannot be proven by science. Jesus existence can be proven. But he is not God."

You certainly can't expect me to let that slip by....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 14, 2004.

Of course not, faith!!!

Ask Tom about it. He is the one who posted this thread.

Hey, Tom....

How were you able to prove God doesn't exist?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.

Anyone familiar with Thomas Aquinas' use of scientific principles to prove the existence of God?

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 15, 2004.

Found it. It's worth reading. Anyone onterested can access it her e.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 17, 2004.

Andy, scholasticism is dad as a way to prove God's existence.

It relied on Augustinian Aristotelian philosophy.

Science has crippled it.

The only thing good mentioning by Aquinas for God's existence is motion.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.

Yes, motion. My younger days involved the mystery of motion as the catylist for all that exists, God being the source.

Try to imagine the idea of having any minute partical coming to a complete stop. What would happen to the universe? Would all that we see come to a complete destruction and inexistence?

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.

At least, if that particle stops, it will probably cease to exist. The friction of everything else that would pass through that static particle may be responsible for the particles destruction.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.

Elpidio,

What are your thoughts about the teleological argument, or the argument from design?

Rod, I like your conjecture. I wonder what would happen.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 17, 2004.

Yes, Rod.

We are always in motion.

That is why we age. "That is our original sin".

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.