why would God allow this-- the horror of a slow death in this fashion. that poor guy. can you still hear him screaming?

why would GOd allow this to happen? i guess the deeper statement the atheist or agnostic might make is: "a 'God' would NOT let this happen".

interested in your opinions. thanks

-- jas (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), May 26, 2004

Answers

The options are: (1) God lets such things happen, or (2) Human beings don't exist. I favor the first option.

If human beings exist, then they are free moral agents, with free will, and FULL RESPONSIBILITY for their choices of free will. In this case, God cannot be blamed for ANYTHING human beings decide to do. If such free will and moral responsibility don't exist, then neither do human beings, in which case one human being cutting off the head of another is no worse than a lion tearing off a gazelle's head, since we are just animals.

What kind of evil would you expect God to step in and prevent? Just murder? Should God make it impossible for one person to murder another? Should He make it impossible to rape? To steal? Should He make it impossible for me to exceed the speed limit, or park in a "no parking" zone? If He did, then my behaviors would be completely pre-programmed, I would have no choices at all, and in effect I would be no more than a robot. Nothing I did would have any real moral value, since the possibility of doing evil would not exist.

I thank God that He has created me in His own image and likeness, with complete freedom to choose His way or my way; for it is only in such circumstances that choosing good can have any real meaning. If I am free to steal, but choose not to do so, there is some merit in that. However, if I am free to steal, then someone else must be free to murder. God's allowing such horrors to occur is ultimately an expression of His goodness and love in creating us free, not a condemnation of Him.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 26, 2004.

The Catechism addresses this:

CCC 324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 26, 2004.

allowing such horrors to occur is ultimately an expression of His goodness and love in creating us free, not a condemnation

Wait a second , this doesn't fit , it isn't right at all !!!!

If it excists , than it would be a sadist ??

What is perfection ??

We're talking about a person , murdered for no good reason at all , but pure out of revenge , is that ok ?? __ What is humanity and its duty ?? __ Also politic is weird !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), May 26, 2004.

"If it excists , than it would be a sadist ??"

A: If by "it" you mean God, then how would human beings harming one another make God a sadist? How would people rejecting or ignoring His perfect will and His instructions make HIM bad? If I allow my teenagers to go out with their friends under certain clearly defined conditions, and they reject those conditions and get drunk and have an orgy, does that make me a bad parent? Responsibility rests with those who make the decision to participate in particular behaviors, not with the One Who has so generously given them the ability to make such decisions for themselves.

"What is perfection ??"

A: God is.

"We're talking about a person , murdered for no good reason at all , but pure out of revenge , is that ok ??"

A: Of course it isn't "ok"! Who suggested otherwise? It is never "ok" to reject the will of God. But being ABLE to do so is part of what defines a human being.

"What is humanity and its duty ??"

A: The duty of humanity is to live in submission to the will of God. However, that could not be considered a "duty" unless the possibility of rejecting the will of God exists as well.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 26, 2004.

what about the nightmare his family has to live with?

>...God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life...

this is very hard to accept. it would seem that a lot of pain is extracted from people for this "good to come from that very evil".

forget about stealing, exceediing the speed limit, etc. im talking about being beheaded slowly, or the horrors of the khmer rouge, the rape of nanking, etc. has ANY good come from all these famous cases of brutality? paul makes an argument that i empathize with, though-- the idea of man's free will. but still, the endless violence for political and/or religious reasons....

but then again, who am i to question God?

-- jas (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), May 26, 2004.

God doesn't allow bad things to happen to good people - mankind does. Paul is exactly right about God giving us a freewill in order that our love for Him be voluntary.

Genesis tells us that pain, suffering and death entered the world as a result of sin. Adam and Eve enjoyed paradise where there was no pain or suffering or death. They chose freely to disobey God and thus, they and their heirs, were made to suffer the consequences of their decision. God didn't bring pain, suffering and death into the world - Adam and Eve did.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), May 26, 2004.

jas, out of respect for Nicholas Berg and his family I would like your permission to change the title of this thread to "Nick Berg Beheaded"? I know it's a small point, but in my opinion, the present title comes across as being very callous and insensitive to what this family has had to endure.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), May 26, 2004.

As beautiful as this earth is, it is not our home. This life is full of pain and sorrow, suffering and tears as well as some joy and happiness. Who actually expects to live their lives without any tears? Who expects the world to to free from evil? It cannot be because it is not heaven. It is heaven which promises to be free from sorrow and suffering and free from tears and free from sin and evil. That's good to remember as we suffer along in this life. Our goal is not to live forever "here" but "there". One cannot experience pure joy if one has never experienced deep sorrow. An atheist wants THIS world to be perfect since he has no hope for any other existence. A Christian wants to perfect himself as best he can through the grace of God to prepare himself for the next life. Mankind is not a puppet race..we have free will to either accept or reject God.

-- lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), May 26, 2004.

i emailed the moderator with a request to re-title this thread that i started.

in all sincerity i simply cannot argue the excellent points made in this thread. i am still shaken by that video. now i am aquiring a learned hatred for these people. granted, they make it easy TO hate them.

hopefully i can get away on this long weekend to reflect, and reconnect with God, and maybe through divine inspiration i'll know He is with me, and with ALL of us, whenever we are loving and when we are in bad times, even though He is silent.

-- j (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), May 26, 2004.

Jas, I've changed the title as per your instructions. Thank you.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), May 26, 2004.

I know I'm being picky but...Nick Berg Victimized? This is a word for grisly murder that I have not heard used before. There are no cold blooded victimizers nor serial victimizers. Victimized is what happens to my mother-in-law by Nigerian e-mail scams, or phone scams. What happened to beheaded?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 27, 2004.

Brian, when Jas emailed me concerning my request, he suggested this title. I think it's a much better one than the one I suggested or than the original title for this thread. Granted, "victimized" may be too light a term, but everyone on the planet is aware of what happened to Mr. Berg. I don't think it matters much here in the forum for discussion purposes, if we don't revisit all the gory details with every new post.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), May 27, 2004.

Ed,

Does this mean when abortion is brought up in forum, that we can't explain how children are slaughtered? The AMERICAN died without his head attached to his body thrown on the side of the road. This shows the evil of this false relegion and what America if up against on this war on terrorism.

But is ok to talk about the prison abuse in forum? How can you speak for his parents and not want the orginal title posted? I didn't read his parents complain when fox news aired the vocal tape.

-- - (David@excite.com), May 27, 2004.

David, your point seems to be that the murder of Mr Berg happened because the whole of Islam and ALL Muslims are essentially evil. That’s what you imply with your sweeping statements ( “always … throughout ….often” ).

The vast majority of Muslims are as horrified at Mr Berg’s murder as we are. (Though many of both Muslims and Christians see it as part of the bitter harvest of violence brought on by the violence done against Iraq by the USA. And many Arabs would say that he at least died an honorable and manly death, in contrast to the shame of the sexual abuse perpetrated on the Iraqis.)

Yes, MOST, not all Muslim women are repressed. Though I fail to see what that has to do with Mr Berg. And most Western women were in a similar position not too long ago. And I’m sure you know one could selectively quote verses from our Bible that endorse beating and killing.

Demonizing all Muslims will not help your argument nor help the USA’s cause in Iraq. The vast majority of Muslims want peace and freedom. We should be seeking ways to co-operate with them, not make enemies of 1.2 billion people.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), June 01, 2004.

Sorry David but we do find stuff exactly like that in the Bible. (Calls to kill and other violence, racism, ethnic hatred, unfair discrimination, and four different accounts of the same thing.) I’m not going to repeat it here, you’ll find it proudly displayed on a lot of atheist sites.

Yes most Arabs would say, and I agree, that Mr Berg was more manly than either the victims or the perpetrators in Abu Ghraib.

You seem to have spent a lot of time reading the Koran, David. Careful they don’t convert you! :-)

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), June 01, 2004.

I was shocked to read:

'The Koran appears to me to be slopped together by a man that has sex with 8 year old little girls.'

from David@excite.

I find that extremely distasteful, disgusting and offensive. Surely that obscene statement cannot be allowed to remain on a Catholic Forum. I would hope that we can show a bit of respect as the Holy Father himself would. The Church is involved in Inter-Faith Dialogue and Ecumenical endeavours, she doesn't need "Catholics" undermining her efforts.

God help us all.

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), June 02, 2004.

David

The particulars of the Koran are irrelevant in relation to what I was saying.

I was not saying the Koran is right. Of course not. I was saying that we are to respect other faiths.

My complaint is how you've shown no respect for another faith. You're acting in an un-Catholic manner.

However, since you seem hell-bent on making much of there being four different versions, I would suggest you remember thatthere are four different versions of the Gospel.

As far as the story about Alexander the Great following the Sun, much of the Bible is allegoric.We don't accept ridicule of it.

We cannot brand all Muslims as evil because SOME Muslims are terrorists. Just as we cannot allow all Catholics to be branded as evil just because some Catholics are terrorists. Some American Catholics partly funded a terrorist organisation called the IRA, who bombed, maimed, tortured and killed many people over many years. That doesn't make all American nor Irish Catholics evil. Of course not. It means SOME are bad.

We have to be fair.

God bless

Sara

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), June 02, 2004.

From the time David placed his second post on May 27/04 I have been debating whether or not to remove his post and subsequent ones posted by him and Henry, which I too, have found to be disgusting and offensive and an affront to all Christians. I allowed the first post to stand hoping that someone would defend the Catholic principles of tolerance of others and goodwill toward all men which, I am pleased to say, quickly materialized with posts from Sara and Steve. Unfortunately their comments have only served to spawn more comments filled with hatred toward all Muslims and their faith. As a result, I have deleted all posts from David and Henry lodged since David’s second post on May 27/04. Their posts did nothing but promote falsehoods and hatred for another faith and is contrary to the Christian principles this forum advocates. This sort of biased hatred for others of different religious background will not be tolerated in this forum.

Moderator

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), June 02, 2004.