For Kevin..The Sermon on the Mount The "good news??"

The Beatitudes represent only the first step toward understanding the Sermon on the Mount. Long after I came to understand the the truth of the Beatitudes, I found myself still pondering over the harshness of the rest of Jesus' sermon.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect," Jesus said, His statement tucked casually between commands to love our enemy and give away everything we own.

Be perfect like God? What could He possibly mean?

What does the Bible say about who is good? It says that no one is good--except God, of course.

When a rich man asked Jesus what he should do to ensure eternal life--Jesus told him to give his money away! Not 10% mind you, or 50% even--but all of it.

When a disciple asked if he should forgive his brother seven times--Jesus replied that he should forgive him him seventy-seven times.

Jesus taught the Golden rule as follows: "In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you."

Has anyone ever lived a life as perfect as God? Has anyone ever followed the Golden Rule perfectly? How can we respond to such impossible ideas?

A friend of mine once said that he did not like the "Sermon on the Mount". He complained that it was not easy to read and made him feel like he had to be perfect. "To simply look at a woman lustfully is adultery? Absurd!" he proclaimed.

Jesus said..Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...

It is easy to love your own brother, to love those who love you, even tax collectors do that! You want me to congratulate you for loving your own? No, Jesus said., "Love your enemy!"

Love the man who would kick you and spit on you. Love the soldier who would drive a sword through your belly. Love the man who robs and tortures you.

Listen to me.."Love your enemy!!"

The Sermon on the Mount did not simply puzzle the people of his day. This unwelcomed advice infuriated them!

Jesus' listeners worried about whether Jesus was a revolutionary rather than an authentic Jewish prophet.

Jesus responded to that by saying, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them...

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

That last statement surely made the crowd sit up and take notice. How could their righteousness surpass that of the religious leaders of their day?

Pharisees and teachers of the law competed with one another in strictness. They had atomized God's law into 613 rules--248 commands and 365 prohibitions!!

And--they bolstered these rules with 1,521 emendations. To avoid breaking the third commandment, "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord," they refused to pronounce God's name at all!

To avoid sexual temptation, they had practiced walking with their heads down and not looking at women. The most scrupulous of these were known as "bleeding Pharisees" because of their frequent collisions with walls and other things.

To avoid defiling the Sabbath, they outlawed 39 activities that might be considered work. How could an ordinary person's righteousness ever surpass that of such *professional* holy men?

Using the Torah as His starting point, Jesus pushed the law in the same direction, but further than any Pharisee had ever dared to push it..further than any monk ever dared to live it. Jesus made the Law impossible for anyone to keep and then charged us to keep it!

"I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement....anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Can any two brothers weather the storms of adolescence without relying on words such as "supid" or "fool"?

"I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

For sure--lust in America has become a favorite pastime, celebrated in ads for bluejeans and beer.

Finally--Jesus even spells out the principles for non-violence. Who could even survive with the rules Jesus laid down?

"Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well."

I think about all these commands and I ask myself how I should respond? Does Jesus really expect me to give all I have to every panhandler who crosses my path?

Should I abandon all insistence on consumer rights? Should I cancel my insurance policies and trust God for the future? Should I give everything I have to the poor--keeping only the clothes on my back?

How can I possibly translate such ethical ideas into my everyday life?

In his response to the rich young ruler in the parable of the Good Samaritan, in his comments about divorce, money, or any other moral issue...Jesus never lowered God's ideal...

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" he said. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

No one has ever completely fulfilled those commands..not Fancis of Assisi, not Mother Teresa, not anyone!

There is only one way for any of us to resolve the tension between the high ideals of the gospel and the grim reality of ourselves.

We need to accept that we can never measure up. That is ultimately what the message of the gospel is. The "good news" is, that we don't have to. The gospel (good news) message is that we are judged by the righteousness of Christ who lives within us the moment we receive him.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the Law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering." (Romans 8:1-3)

Jesus, who never lowered God's ideal is also the same Jesus who tenderly offered absolute grace. Jesus forgave an adulteress, a thief on a cross and a disciple who had denied knowing him.

It extends even to the people who nailed Jesus to the cross... "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing."

When it comes to the Sermon on the Mount--I can see that Jesus gave us these words not to cumber us, but to tell us what God is like--perfect.

Jesus did not proclaim the Sermon on the Mount so that we would despair over our failure to acheive perfection. He gave it to impart to us--God's Ideal toward which we should never stop striving, but also to show us that none of us will ever reach that ideal.

The Sermon on the Mount forces us to recognize the great distance between God and us.., and any attempt to somehow *moderate* its demands--misses the point altogether!

The worst tragedy would be to turn the Sermon on the Mount into another form of legalism; it should rather put an end to legalism. Legalism like the Pharisees' will always fail., not because it is too strict--but because it isn't strict enough.

The Sermon on the Mount proves that before God, we all stand on equal ground. Murderers and temper-throwers, adulterers and lusters, thieves and coveters. We are all desperate, and we have all indeed fallen from God's absolute Ideal.

We have nowhere to land but inside the safety net of grace--God's grace. Jesus Christ is our salvation... a gift from God--by His grace..."perfection" offered--up, in our place.

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.." (Romans 10:4)

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 28, 2004

Answers

Bump....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 28, 2004.

1 John 5:1-5

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith."

Obedience is not simply evidence of faith to others, but evidence to ourselves and to God.

The biggest lie ever sold was "Satan isn't real." After that comes "God only cares about your heart, not about what you do."

It is not hard to obey if you love Jesus, but if you do not love him, you will not obey. If you only love him with part of your heart, you will not fully obey. Simple as that.

Jesus said many times that those who believe in him will be saved. John repeated this many times, whoever believes in him has been born of him. Believing was never intended to mean only the mental acknowledgement + heartfelt conviction of the gospel truth. Believing is following, and James clearly defines believing as following and obeying. Seems to me God knew perfectly well that there would be ppl who say obedience and faith are two seperated actions.

Once upon a time the world was divided into Jews and Gentiles. Now it exists as believers and unbelievers. I was saved because I decided to follow him. I was saved because I decided to obey him. I was saved because I became a disciple of Christ. All of these are summerized that I believed, the fulfilment of John 3:16

Does God want us to be perfect? Absolutely! Like Emily said, nothing impure will ever enter into heaven, thus we must be made perfect by the cleansing with Jesus' blood. John stated in chapter 1:

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.

Luke,

Thank you!!!

Faith,

Luke has answered your post with the CORRECT answer from the word of God. I agree with his post 100 per cent.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), May 28, 2004.

Luke, excellent work. I think everything you said lines up with a Catholic view of salvation also.

Faith, the idea is that through Christ we are made perfect, as God works on us more every day and purges our sin from our lives, the more we submit to His will. Rather than simply Christ covering over our sins, we are cleansed of them by Christ's blood.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.

I don't disagree that following Christ is important and necessary. If we didn't do that--I would question the reality of one's salvation.

I think we are saying the same thing--with the big difference that I recognize that we obey and follow Christ out of a greatful heart because we are saved.., and not in order to be saved. Our works do not save us. Christ's work at the cross does!

I would also add that I wouldn't take any comfort--If I were any of you--that you agree with each other.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 29, 2004.

Kevin.,

You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Jesus declares that if we want to go to heaven--we must be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect.

Yet we know that this is impossible.

You claim we can be perfect by obeying--yet I saw you admit that you are not perfect.

The Bible in fact--reveals that no one can be perfect except that God is perfect. Jesus lived a perfect life--which reveals that He is God-- because only God can be good.

So you are in a dilemma...

If you can't be perfect by your own behavior--then how do you go to heaven, since Jesus says you must be perfect as His Father in Heaven is perfect?

Remember that even if you call someone a fool--you are sunk.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 29, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "Kevin., You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth."

No Faith, I am NOT talking out of both sides of my mouth. Let's see if what you say is true.

You wrote, "Jesus declares that if we want to go to heaven--we must be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect. Yet we know that this is impossible."

No Faith this is NOT impossible as you state, if this is the case, then Jesus would NOT have told us to be perfect. Does being PERFECT mean that one is WITHOUT SIN??? Certainly NOT. For the word of God states the we ALL sin.

You wrote, "You claim we can be perfect by obeying--yet I saw you admit that you are not perfect."

Yes, we BECOME more like Jesus when we DO what He says and WORK out our salvation with "fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). We are to DENY ourselves, take up our cross, and FOLLOW Jesus. (Matthew 16:24-25).

Jesus said in Luke 14:27, "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me CANNOT be My disciple."

Jesus WAS perfect, and He has told US to be perfect becuase we are to FOLLOW Him.

You wrote, "The Bible in fact--reveals that no one can be perfect except that God is perfect. Jesus lived a perfect life--which reveals that He is God-- because only God can be good."

Scripture please that states that "no one can be perfect except that God is perfect"??? Just because only God is good, does NOT mean that we CANNOT obey His commandments in order to be perfect and be saved now does it Faith??? Did Jesus give us a commandment that we CANNOT obey???

You wrote, "So you are in a dilemma...If you can't be perfect by your own behavior--then how do you go to heaven, since Jesus says you must be perfect as His Father in Heaven is perfect?"

There is NO dilemma here except for the one that you have created. Did Jesus tell the rich man that he could be perfect if he first sold his goods, then followed Jesus??? Are you going to also DENY these PLAIN words of Scripture like you have done with so many other passages that don't fit your preconceived beliefs??? One can ONLY go to Heaven by first obeying the gospel, then one must WORK out their salvation and show the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. To claim that one can be saved from their sins and then do NOTHING the rest of their lives to show that they are indeed GROWING in grace, knowledge, faith, virtue, patience, etc. then one is really NOT saved in the first place. There is NO such thing as a part time Christian. It is NOT easy to go to Heaven, "Because narrow is the gate and DIFFICULT IS THE WAY WHICH LEADS TO LIFE, and there are FEW WHO FIND IT." (Matthew 7:14).

You wrote, "Remember that even if you call someone a fool--you are sunk."

Have I called you this name Faith??? As a matter of fact, I have NOT ever called anyone this name, NOR will I ever call anyone this name because that is strictly CONDEMNED in the Bible.

Please explain why you made this statement??? God TESTS our faith to see if it is genuine. (1 Thessalonians 2:4, Revelation 2:23).

How does God know our faith is genuine??? By our WORKS... (James 2:22, 24).

We will be JUDGED by our WORKS, NOT by our faith. (Revelation 20:12-14).

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), May 29, 2004.

To Kevin

Faith wrote, "Jesus declares that if we want to go to heaven--we must be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect. Yet we know that this is impossible."

Kevin said..

No Faith this is NOT impossible as you state, if this is the case, then Jesus would NOT have told us to be perfect. Does being PERFECT mean that one is WITHOUT SIN??? Certainly NOT. For the word of God states the we ALL sin.

Kevin--Jesus said that if we want to go to heaven--we had to be perfect Like His Father in heaven is perfect. So the question is, "How is God the Father perfect?" Well., can you be that? Can you be perfect as God is? Nope.

Faith wrote, "You claim we can be perfect by obeying--yet I saw you admit that you are not perfect."

Kevin said

Yes, we BECOME more like Jesus when we DO what He says and WORK out our salvation with "fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). We are to DENY ourselves, take up our cross, and FOLLOW Jesus. (Matthew 16:24- 25).

Jesus said in Luke 14:27, "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me CANNOT be My disciple."

None of this addresses initial salvation. All of what you say, is addressed to those who are already saved. Working out your salvation does not mean earning the possibility of being saved. It refers to those who are already saved and we are instructed to live that fact out.

Jesus WAS perfect, and He has told US to be perfect becuase we are to FOLLOW Him.

But what makes us perfect Kevin? It is Christ.., not our obedience. Jesus has demonstrated the impossibilty of our being perfect.

Faith wrote, "The Bible in fact--reveals that no one can be perfect except that God is perfect. Jesus lived a perfect life--which reveals that He is God-- because only God can be good."

Kevin said,

Scripture please that states that "no one can be perfect except that God is perfect"??? Just because only God is good, does NOT mean that we CANNOT obey His commandments in order to be perfect and be saved now does it Faith??? Did Jesus give us a commandment that we CANNOT obey???

Yes Kevin--Jesus pushed the Law to absurdity to show us how impossible it would be for us to try and earn our way into heaven. He was introducing us to the idea that we need Him.

Faith wrote, "So you are in a dilemma...If you can't be perfect by your own behavior--then how do you go to heaven, since Jesus says you must be perfect as His Father in Heaven is perfect?"

Kevin said.,

There is NO dilemma here except for the one that you have created. Did Jesus tell the rich man that he could be perfect if he first sold his goods, then followed Jesus??? Are you going to also DENY these PLAIN words of Scripture like you have done with so many other passages that don't fit your preconceived beliefs???

No Kevin--I am hearing the real message in that. Jesus does not expect that we can obey those things. He said it is impossible for man.

Kevin wrote

One can ONLY go to Heaven by first obeying the gospel, then one must WORK out their salvation and show the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. To claim that one can be saved from their sins and then do NOTHING the rest of their lives to show that they are indeed GROWING in grace, knowledge, faith, virtue, patience, etc. then one is really NOT saved in the first place.

You are mistaken, Kevin. I am not declaring that we need not obey Christ. I am declaring that we are not saved by obeying., but that we obey because we are saved.

Kevin wrote

There is NO such thing as a part time Christian. It is NOT easy to go to Heaven, "Because narrow is the gate and DIFFICULT IS THE WAY WHICH LEADS TO LIFE, and there are FEW WHO FIND IT." (Matthew 7:14).

Faith wrote, "Remember that even if you call someone a fool--you are sunk."

Have I called you this name Faith??? As a matter of fact, I have NOT ever called anyone this name, NOR will I ever call anyone this name because that is strictly CONDEMNED in the Bible.

Kevin., the point about calling someone a fool--was to demonstrate that we are all sinners and fall short of God's glory, because something as simple as an angry word--separates us from the kind of perfection God requires. There is only one way to heaven. The narrow gate is Christ. We must be covered in His righteousness..which comes to us by faith.

Please explain why you made this statement??? God TESTS our faith to see if it is genuine. (1 Thessalonians 2:4, Revelation 2:23).

Even that verse you misunderstand. God doesn't need to test us so He can tell whether we are genuine or not. Lol!! He tests us for our own benefit. Paul was speaking about himself--and Christ's disciples--who were already saved by their faith and approved by God and entrusted with the gospel.

How does God know our faith is genuine??? By our WORKS... (James 2:22, 24).

I agree that you will know a genuine Christian by the fruit they bear..but that fruit is the result of the fact that they are saved Chrisians.

We will be JUDGED by our WORKS, NOT by our faith. (Revelation 20:12-14).

Those verses speak to the dead...those who did not take part in the first resurrection. In other words, unbelievers.

Christians are judged saved in Christ.

And as saved Christians--our deeds will be judged for rewards in heaven--but that has nothing to do with salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15

"his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 29, 2004.

"I don't disagree that following Christ is important and necessary. If we didn't do that--I would question the reality of one's salvation. I think we are saying the same thing--with the big difference that I recognize that we obey and follow Christ out of a greatful heart because we are saved.., and not in order to be saved. Our works do not save us. Christ's work at the cross does!" -Faith

I think God would question it also Faith. I don't remember seeing you post on any of the Eternal Security threads, but I'm curious now as to your thoughts on it. I believe we obey God for a)what he did and b) what he does. It seems like you only believe the first one

Jesus said in John 3:14-16 "...So the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Twice in this section he repeats that those who believe in him will be saved, and we can read the entire chapter to see Jesus say it again and again. Yet he said in Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

How can Jesus clearly make obedience a requirement for heaven if obedience only comes as a result of being saved? Maybe you believe that the conditions for salvation are different from those of heaven? I don't know, I thought they were the same.

Let's look at the rich man and Jesus from Mark 10.

Rich man: What must I do to inherit eternal life?

Jesus: You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'

Rich man: All these I have kept since I was a boy.

Jesus: One thing you lack. Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.

Did the rich man really keep all of those commands perfectly since he was a boy? What did Jesus do? Did he call the man a liar? Nope. He told him that even in following the commands he had not done that which is necessary for eternal life. And that is to follow. The rich man obviously "believed" that Jesus knew the way to heaven, yet this "belief" did not lead the man to becoming a disciple. The Rich man was not a believer because he did not follow Jesus. Easy a pie.

Those verses [Revelation 20] speak to the dead...those who did not take part in the first resurrection. In other words, unbelievers." -Faith

Actually, the first resurrection is only for the "souls who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned 1000 years with Christ. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)"

Here is the second death: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged acccording to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done...If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Why is the book of life opened here if all those being judged are unbelievers anyway?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 29, 2004.

Luke,

What is your stance on eternal security?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 29, 2004.

Luke.,

you said:

How can Jesus clearly make obedience a requirement for heaven if obedience only comes as a result of being saved? Maybe you believe that the conditions for salvation are different from those of heaven? I don't know, I thought they were the same.

I do not think that Jesus makes obedience a requirement to entering eternal life. He knows that we are incapable of the kind of obedience he listed in the Sermon on the Mount.

Jesus says that we must be perfect like God is perfect.

And then He reveals how we do that. We become perfect when we receive Him as our Savior by faith and we are clothed in His righteousness--not our own righteousness.

I also think that heaven and eternal life are blessings to those who are saved--heaven and eternal life are not salvation itself.

Salvation is the deliverence from danger or difficulty; deliverence from the power of sin.

In other words, I don't believe we are capable of obedience until we are delivered from our sinful nature--that is salvation. And even then--in this life, we will still mess up. But we are forgiven in Christ and delivered first--then comes obedience.

Then you say: Did the rich man really keep all of those commands perfectly since he was a boy? What did Jesus do? Did he call the man a liar? Nope. He told him that even in following the commands he had not done that which is necessary for eternal life. And that is to follow. The rich man obviously "believed" that Jesus knew the way to heaven, yet this "belief" did not lead the man to becoming a disciple. The Rich man was not a believer because he did not follow Jesus. Easy a pie.

And I say that the rich man did not follow Jesus because he was not a believer. Head knowledge and heart felt faith are two different things. Look at all the laws and rules and regulations the Jews made for themselves. None of which were able to save any of them. Abraham was saved because he believed--and that faith was evidenced by his obedience.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 29, 2004.

Also Luke--

The second resurrection occurs at the end of the 1000 year reign and is for unbelievers. In Revelation 21:11-15..it is the dead who are being judged.

Those who are saved Christians are alive in Christ and we are not judged., for there is no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ. Believers were raised in a twinkling of an eye--they were given incorruptable bodies and they reigned with Christ during those thousand years--so how can they then be dead and raised after the 1000 years are over?

I believe we see the church in Revelation 7:9-18:

The Great Multitude in White Robes

After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:

"Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"

Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"

I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

We know that the thousand year reign occurs after the Tribulation period. And we know that Tribulation saints--those you see in Rev. 20- -are not part of the church--but are those who received Christ after the church age was complete. These saints had to endure the Tribulation period., whereas the church escapes the wrath., and judgement of Jacob's trouble.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 29, 2004.

Faith wrote, "Kevin--Jesus said that if we want to go to heaven--we had to be perfect Like His Father in heaven is perfect. So the question is, "How is God the Father perfect?" Well., can you be that? Can you be perfect as God is? Nope."

Obviously you think that Jesus gave us a command that we are NOT able to accomplish. Is Jesus a liar Faith??? You seem to think so when you DENY His words. Jesus told the rich man to sell his goods in order that he might be perfect, then follow Him. Was the rich man able to do this thing that Jesus asked him to do??? Of course he was able to do it!!! Your claim that we CANNOT be perfect as God is NOT what Jesus is stating. I NEVER said that one could be "perfect as God is" NOR did Jesus tell the rich man that he was to be "perfect as God is". Could the rich man have OBEYED Jesus??? If your answer is no, please explain.

Faith wrote, "None of this addresses initial salvation. All of what you say, is addressed to those who are already saved. Working out your salvation does not mean earning the possibility of being saved. It refers to those who are already saved and we are instructed to live that fact out."

Yes, the verses I quoted did NOT have anything to do with initial salvation NOR did I imply that such was the case. I have NOT said that working out your salvation means that one EARNS their salvation now have I Faith??? One is to WORK out their salvation, NOT because they are ALREADY SAVED, but to BE SAVED. If God says that the way to life is difficult (and He did in Matthew 7:14), how can you state that one obeys BECAUSE they are ALREADY SAVED??? What did the apostle Paul say??? (See 1 Corinthians 9:24-27).

Faith wrote, "But what makes us perfect Kevin? It is Christ.., not our obedience. Jesus has demonstrated the impossibilty of our being perfect."

God says, "Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?" (James 2:22).

What did Jesus say??? (See Matthew 7:20).

Once again Faith, you DENY the very words by which we will be judged.

The apostle Paul (through inspiration of the Holy Spirit) said in Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of OBEDIENCE LEADING TO RIGHTEOUSNESS?"

Where is the passage(s) that state that we obey BECAUSE we are saved???

I wrote, "Scripture please that states that "no one can be perfect except that God is perfect"??? Just because only God is good, does NOT mean that we CANNOT obey His commandments in order to be perfect and be saved now does it Faith??? Did Jesus give us a commandment that we CANNOT obey???"

To which Faith replied, "Yes Kevin--Jesus pushed the Law to absurdity to show us how impossible it would be for us to try and earn our way into heaven. He was introducing us to the idea that we need Him."

You did NOT answer the question and just reposted what you wrote earlier. I will ask you these two questions again:

1. Just because only God is good, does NOT mean that we CANNOT obey His commandments in order to be perfect and be saved now does it Faith??? 2. Did Jesus give us a commandment that we CANNOT obey???

Faith wrote, "No Kevin--I am hearing the real message in that. Jesus does not expect that we can obey those things. He said it is impossible for man."

If Jesus expected the rich man could NOT obey, then why did He even bother to tell him what he must DO in order to be saved??? He did NOT say that it was "impossible for man" as you FALSELY state. The rich man was not saved because he could NOT do what Jesus asked him, he was not saved because he did NOT do what Jesus asked him there is a big difference.

I wrote, "One can ONLY go to Heaven by first obeying the gospel, then one must WORK out their salvation and show the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. To claim that one can be saved from their sins and then do NOTHING the rest of their lives to show that they are indeed GROWING in grace, knowledge, faith, virtue, patience, etc. then one is really NOT saved in the first place."

To which Faith replied, "You are mistaken, Kevin. I am not declaring that we need not obey Christ. I am declaring that we are not saved by obeying., but that we obey because we are saved."

I am still waiting for your scripture(s) that state "we obey because we are saved"???? Does obedience lead to righteousness??? Yes or No???

Jesus said in 1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

I wrote, "Please explain why you made this statement??? God TESTS our faith to see if it is genuine. (1 Thessalonians 2:4, Revelation 2:23)."

To which Faith replied, "Even that verse you misunderstand. God doesn't need to test us so He can tell whether we are genuine or not. Lol!! He tests us for our own benefit. Paul was speaking about himself--and Christ's disciples--who were already saved by their faith and approved by God and entrusted with the gospel."

Once again Faith, you DENY the PLAIN words of the New Testament. This does not surprise me in the least!!!

Where is your PROOF from scripture that God "tests us for our own benefit"???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), May 29, 2004.

Well certainly Kevin--God doesn't test us to see if our faith is genuine. God knows us...

He tests us so that we will know ourselves....

You keep demanding Scripture verses., but ya know what Kevin--I know the whole of Scripture and the overwhelming message within. I don't feel like looking up every single verse. You should recognize the Word even if I don't provide a chapter and verse every time.

I get tired of that kind of work--especially when my efforts get rejected. Look at the way in which my initial post which contained plenty of Scripture--was shoved aside and basically ignored.

I'd rather just speak from the heart and my deep understanding of God's Word.

When God tests us--He is teaching us something...He refines us and grows us. It isn't for His benefit. And I can't think off the top of my head exactly where I came to understand that from God--but I did!!

And no--obedience does not lead to righteousness--faith does. Obedience is the result of that faith.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 29, 2004.

Faith says:

"I know the whole of Scripture and the overwhelming message within. I don't feel like looking up every single verse….I'd rather just speak from the heart and my deep understanding of God's Word…And no--obedience does not lead to righteousness--faith does."

Romans 5:16 says:

"Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

Luke says:

…

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004.

Faith said: I would also add that I wouldn't take any comfort--If I were any of you--that you agree with each other. [Regarding my agreement with Kevin and Luke on one issue.]

Faith, please tell me why not? We are commanded in Scripture to agree among Christians, and given the fact that Luke, Kevin, and I would probably disagree on many things, I see this agreement as all the more reason to rejoice! Please consider these Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 1:10 (NIV)
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

John 17 (NIV) Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Please do not scorn at unity (whether in purpose or in thought) among Christians, because by doing so, you are going against the commands of Scripture, the desires of Christ, and our witness to the world about Christ. God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004.

Luke says..

Romans 5:16 says:

"Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?" (This is actually Rom. 6:16)

***************************************

Being a slave to obedience means that we are children of God--rather than children of Satan.

I think that that verse speaks to the difference between people who follow Satan vs. people who follow Jesus. If we choose to follow Jesus--we are saved first because of that decision, and the power we gain in salvation is the strength of Christ-- which empowers us to be able to follow Him. We are righteous because we have Christ in us--not because of what we do.

My study section in my Bible says this with respect to Romans 6:16:

In certain skilled crafts, an apprentice works under a master, who trains, shapes and molds his apprentice in the finer points of his craft. All people choose a master and pattern themselves after him. Without Jesus, we would have no choice--we would have to apprentice ourselves to sin., and the results would be guilt, suffering, and separation from God. Thanks to Jesus, however, we can now choose God as our Master.

Following Jesus requires that we first choose Him as our Master--then we are empowered to resist the lusts of the flesh.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 30, 2004.

No offense Emily..,

But the fact that The Church of Christ and the Catholic Church agree with each other--is more proof to me that you are off the mark.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 30, 2004.

Faith, could you please tell me why that is proof that I am off the mark?

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004.

Emily.,

I actually said that it is *proof to me* that you are off the mark-- and the reason I think this is because I know that Kevin is off the mark.

Biblical Christianity is different from either one of your religions...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 30, 2004.

I know I'm coming in a bit late in this converstaion, but I think the idea of perfection that that we are understadning from Mt 5:48 has been misunderstood somewhat. I think a better translation of His words are:

"ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect." Young's Literal Translation

or

""Therefore, _you*_ will be perfect, just as your* Father, the [One] in the heavens, is perfect. " Analytical-Literal translation

Robertson's Word Pictures of the Bible offers this commentary:

"Perfect (teleioi). The word comes from telos, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children."

Thayer's dictionary offers this translation of the Greek word teleios:

"1) brought to its end, finished 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness 3) perfect 4) that which is perfect 4a) consummate human integrity and virtue 4b) of men 4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature"

The word "complete" gives a better sense of Jesus' words, I think. Taken in context, Jesus is telling us we will be perfect (i.i., complete) as God is perfect. How will this be? Through Him. Through faith, love, and charity. This necessarily includes obeying Him in all things as has been pointed out already in this thread. But I think the ability to obey comes from His grace. The argument almost seems to be like the old "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Seems we all agree that love without obedience is not really love and that obedience without love is not really obedience with respect to God.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 02, 2004.

Thanks for your input Andy..,

But don't you think Jesus is giving us a picture of what he means by perfect?

He lists--in His Sermon on the Mount--an impossible list of the *to do* things that would make us perfect as God is perfect.

This list entails a sinless behavior--as God is sinless.

Can you honestly say that you would gouge out your eyes--if you saw a beautiful woman coming down the street--in order to avoid a sexual thought?

Can you honestly say that you have never had an ill thought towards another--or that you would turn your other cheek to someone attacking you?

If someone wanted to sue you for everything you owned--would you simply hand it over to them without a fuss?

Would you allow your enemy to harm you--or even lay down your life to an enemy to follow these impossible commands?

I can see that Jesus was being somewhat facetious--pushing the Law to an impossible standard--to make His real point, that we cannot do this on our own. We cannot measure up or ever be perfect enough.

After the rich man points out that he has done everything that God commanded--Jesus says it still isn't enough!! Go ahead, He says...if you want to be perfect--then sell everything you own!!

Let's face it--no one can possibly do all that Jesus lists in order to be perfect enough to merit heaven on our own. That is Jesus' point.

Jesus is clearly not suggesting how we might be somewhat almost perfect--or that we are perfection in the making. He says that if we so much as call a brother *fool* we will be eternally damned.

There is nothing lighthearted about this warning.

So., if we can't possibly live up to these standards and be perfect-- what then?

How did God make it possible for us to go to heaven? Jesus said that with man it is impossible!!!

But he added that with God--all things are possible.

This is exactly the purpose of the Old Testament. It was designed to reveal to us--our imperfect sinful nature and the fact that we are hopelessly lost.

The good news is the cross..., where Jesus, who was perfect, died in our place. When we receive Him as our Savior--we put on His righteousness--His perfection. That is the only reason we may now enter eternal life. This is God's gift--which by it's very nature is a *gift* and cannot be earned.

And I would add that once we clothe ourselves in His righteousness--we are *saved* which simply means that we are delivered from danger and difficulty--freed from the power of sin. This now makes it possible for us to become obedient to Christ and follow Him. Without that--the Bible makes it clear that we are unable to follow God--and only capable of following the lustful desires of the flesh.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 02, 2004.

" Can you honestly say that you would gouge out your eyes--if you saw a beautiful woman coming down the street--in order to avoid a sexual thought? Can you honestly say that you have never had an ill thought towards another--or that you would turn your other cheek to someone attacking you? If someone wanted to sue you for everything you owned--would you simply hand it over to them without a fuss? Would you allow your enemy to harm you--or even lay down your life to an enemy to follow these impossible commands?"

Perhaps your exaggeration of these commands is why you believe them impossible.

"Let's face it--no one can possibly do all that Jesus lists in order to be perfect enough to merit heaven on our own."

No one can possibly be perfect enough to merit heaven. Is this the point you are making? No one here disagrees with that.

"And I would add that once we clothe ourselves in His righteousness--we are *saved* which simply means that we are delivered from danger and difficulty--freed from the power of sin. This now makes it possible for us to become obedient to Christ and follow Him. Without that--the Bible makes it clear that we are unable to follow God--and only capable of following the lustful desires of the flesh. "

How does one "clothe himself in His righteousness" if "we are unable to follow God" before being freed from the power of sin? You're going to paint yourself into a corner unless you believe in unconditional election.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), June 02, 2004.

Faith said, Jesus is clearly not suggesting how we might be somewhat almost perfect--or that we are perfection in the making. He says that if we so much as call a brother *fool* we will be eternally damned.

There is nothing lighthearted about this warning.

There is a good discussion on what the term "You fool" means and probably what Jesus meant in the context of this passage (Mt 5:22) at this link:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00C42F

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 02, 2004.

Andy.,

I just think that what Jesus was saying when he said it was a sin to call someone a fool--wasn't really about that exact word *fool* at all.

I think He could have just as easily used the word *jerk*, *idiot*.,etc..

The point Jesus was making was that something as simple as calling someone a name in the heat of anger, is a sin, and it leaves us without any excuse and no way into heaven because only perfection can enter heaven.

Jesus was showing us that the littlest human thing is sinful and we all stand condemned. No matter how much we do., or how hard we try to be good--we will, by nature--screw up. We cannot get into heaven based on our own efforts.

To try and create a bunch of exegisis and explanations about the word *fool* itself--misses Jesus' point altogether--in my opinion.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 02, 2004.

No Luke..,

It is by faith that we are saved. Faith is a matter of the heart--and something we can choose to follow.

We can follow our conscience and believe., or we can follow the lust of the flesh. We do have a choice.

The Bible never says we are unable to follow our conscience and listen to the Spirit--rather it says that unless we do that--we can only follow our sinful nature.

When the Bible speaks about election--it always refers to being elected to certain blessings, which are the result of salvation. The Bible never says that someone is elected to salvation or elected to hell for that matter.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 02, 2004.

Luke,

I thought you made some good points.

Faith,

The point about the amateur exegesis regarding saying to someone "You fool!" is that biblically, it means much more than simply calling someone a "jerk" or "idiot". I think this helps to put what Jesus said in context.

Let me reply to your previous post.

Thanks for your input Andy..,

No problem. Thanks for considering it.

But don't you think Jesus is giving us a picture of what he means by perfect?

Yes

He lists--in His Sermon on the Mount--an impossible list of the *to do* things that would make us perfect as God is perfect.

I don’t believe this list is impossible with God’s help. I also don’t think Jesus meant this to be a check list for us to follow in order to be perfect in the exact same sense that God is perfect with all His abilities and powers. I think he is calling us to be as God is (holy) and to cooperate with His grace.

This list entails a sinless behavior--as God is sinless.

Can you honestly say that you would gouge out your eyes--if you saw a beautiful woman coming down the street--in order to avoid a sexual thought?

Jesus said "If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell."

My right eye, however, does not cause me to sin. My desire for something other than God does. I think this is what Christ is illustrating by this statement. Get rid of everything that causes us to sin. If binge drinking causes me to sin, I better stop doing it. If my eye somehow caused me to sin, then I best gouge it out rather than risk offending the Lord and losing my love for Him.

Can you honestly say that you have never had an ill thought towards another--or that you would turn your other cheek to someone attacking you?

If someone wanted to sue you for everything you owned--would you simply hand it over to them without a fuss?

Would you allow your enemy to harm you--or even lay down your life to an enemy to follow these impossible commands?

I sure couldn’t do all these things on my own; but with God’s freely given grace I could do all of them and more. But then, it wouldn’t be me, but God doing all these things in me. God gives me the free choice to cooperate or not with His grace.

I can see that Jesus was being somewhat facetious--pushing the Law to an impossible standard--to make His real point, that we cannot do this on our own. We cannot measure up or ever be perfect enough.

I don’t think Jesus is being facetious at all. I am taking Him at His word. Mt 5 is truly how Christ wants us to live.

After the rich man points out that he has done everything that God commanded--Jesus says it still isn't enough!! Go ahead, He says...if you want to be perfect--then sell everything you own!! Let's face it--no one can possibly do all that Jesus lists in order to be perfect enough to merit heaven on our own. That is Jesus' point.

I humbly disagree. I think you’re totally missing Jesus’ point, Faith. With God’s grace, we can do all these things and more. But it means denying our own will and following His. God does not demand anything of us that we cannot do by His grace. Because we say that we must obey God, does not mean we are saying that we merit heaven on our own. Besides, the Bible tells us we must obey God if we love Him.

Jesus is clearly not suggesting how we might be somewhat almost perfect--or that we are perfection in the making.

I don’t see where you are getting this from.

He says that if we so much as call a brother *fool* we will be eternally damned.

There is nothing lighthearted about this warning.

See discussion I linked to in previous post.

So., if we can't possibly live up to these standards and be perfect-- what then?

We can’t live up to these standards without Christ and God’s grace. That’s the point.

How did God make it possible for us to go to heaven? Jesus said that with man it is impossible!!!

True.

But he added that with God--all things are possible.

True! That’s the point!

This is exactly the purpose of the Old Testament. It was designed to reveal to us--our imperfect sinful nature and the fact that we are hopelessly lost.

..hopelessly lost without God.

The good news is the cross..., where Jesus, who was perfect, died in our place. When we receive Him as our Savior--we put on His righteousness--His perfection. That is the only reason we may now enter eternal life. This is God's gift--which by it's very nature is a *gift* and cannot be earned.

Agreed, except I don’t believe we just "put on" His righteousness, but that by His grace He makes us righteous (if we cooperate with His grace). But that is a discussion for another thread.

And I would add that once we clothe ourselves in His righteousness- -we are *saved* which simply means that we are delivered from danger and difficulty--freed from the power of sin.

I may disagree with your view of "how" we are saved, but I do agree that we are freed from sin.

This now makes it possible for us to become obedient to Christ and follow Him. Without that--the Bible makes it clear that we are unable to follow God--and only capable of following the lustful desires of the flesh.

Amen to that sister!

Perhaps we are analyzing things too much. I don’t see how we can separate faith, obedience, and love for God from eternal life. I liken our relationship to God as a child to a father. As a father I desire not just obedience (within my rights as a father), but love. As I said before, obedience without love is not true obedience, and love without obedience is not really love. Only in the context of a family, or a loving relationship, does this make sense.

As a child did I love my father even while I may not have obeyed him all the time? Of course I did. I did my best to obey him because I loved him and trusted that what he commanded was in my best interest even when I did not understand the why of it. Sometimes I did it out of fear of punishment. However, consistent disobedience without repentance would certainly kill the love I had for my father. Could I have obeyed without loving him, just for fear of punishment? I certainly could have. But eventually, without love, this obedience would not last. I would have tried to cut corners and only do what was demanded of me, not truly obey.

So, if God really is our father and Christ our brother, we love Him and by loving Him, obey his commandments. As you already pointed out, these commandments are impossible to obey on our own. Without love for God and His grace, we will not be able to obey Him. But I believe that our relationship with God grows and that obedience can help love grow and vice versa. We can love God and obey Him out of love. Or, we can know God only slightly, but trust in His Word and obey Him, seeking Him more and more. Each time we obey, and cooperate with his grace, we come to love Him more as long as we desire Him. That is why I think it is an artificial distinction we sometimes make when we try to separate love for God from obedience to Him. Certainly we fail to obey Him at times when we choose something other than Him, that is why we must repent and turn back to Him.

I believe that in order to gain eternal life we must abide in Christ and He in us. We do this by loving Him. This in itself is an impossible commandment for man alone.

Can I grow in love with God if I do not have faith in Him? Can I grow in love with God if I do not strive to obey Him? Can I grow in love with God without trusting and hoping in Him? Can I continue to obey Him if I lose my love for Him? Can I do any of these things without His grace? I think the answer to all these is no.

The bottom line is, we do not merit or earn salvation. It is a gift of love that God offers us. We will obtain it if we abide in His love. But abiding in His love includes obeying His word. If we continue to disobey, how can we say that we are abiding in His love?

1 John 2

2 And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.

3 And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His Word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 02, 2004.

Andy.,

I would like to think that we are saying the same thing, because in some ways we are.

The difference, I think--stems from what we understand about what salvation is--how it comes to us--and *why* we obey and follow Christ.

You seem to be saying that we obey and follow Christ in order to be saved--yet at the same time you say we are saved by God's grace and you agree that salvation is a free gift.

I think that we cannot possibly follow Christ unless we are saved-- because that salvation enables us to obey--and we follow out of our desire to do so because we love God and have faith in Him--which ultimately is the qualifications for salvation in the first place.

I agree that we need to follow Christ in obedience--I just don't think it is possible without our first confessing Christ is Lord and that we are sinners and that we want to repent and turn from our old ways--receiving Christ into our hearts to guide us and lead us to eternal life.

Salvation must come first. Eternal life is the blessing that God bestows on us because we are saved.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 02, 2004.

Faith,

I would like to think that we are saying the same thing, because in some ways we are.

I think you are right Faith.

The difference, I think--stems from what we understand about what salvation is--how it comes to us--and *why* we obey and follow Christ.

I think you're right again Faith.

You seem to be saying that we obey and follow Christ in order to be saved--yet at the same time you say we are saved by God's grace and you agree that salvation is a free gift.

I do think that obeying Christ and following Him is part of being saved, but I also believe that we cannot do this without His grace, which is a freely given gift from God. I think you hit the nail on the head when you pointed out that our concept of what it means to be saved is the basis of our disagreement. My concept of salvation includes the notion of having been redeemed by Christ and saved "by grace through faith" (Eph 2:8), being saved (and working out my "salvation with fear and trembling" Phil 2:12), and praying for salvation by enduring to the end (Mt 7:21, Mt 24:13, Mt 25:45-46, Rom 8:25, Rom 14:11-12, 1 Cor 10:12, Gal 6:8-9, Philip. 3:14, Col 1:21-23, Heb 10:26-27, Heb 10:36, Heb 12:1).

I think that we cannot possibly follow Christ unless we are saved- - because that salvation enables us to obey--and we follow out of our desire to do so because we love God and have faith in Him--which ultimately is the qualifications for salvation in the first place.

I agree that we need to follow Christ in obedience--I just don't think it is possible without our first confessing Christ is Lord and that we are sinners and that we want to repent and turn from our old ways--receiving Christ into our hearts to guide us and lead us to eternal life.

Salvation must come first. Eternal life is the blessing that God bestows on us because we are saved.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 02, 2004.

Andy.,

You said:

I do think that obeying Christ and following Him is part of being saved, but I also believe that we cannot do this without His grace, which is a freely given gift from God. I think you hit the nail on the head when you pointed out that our concept of what it means to be saved is the basis of our disagreement. My concept of salvation includes the notion of having been redeemed by Christ and saved "by grace through faith" (Eph 2:8), being saved (and working out my "salvation with fear and trembling" Phil 2:12), and praying for salvation by enduring to the end (Mt 7:21, Mt 24:13, Mt 25:45-46, Rom 8:25, Rom 14:11-12, 1 Cor 10:12, Gal 6:8-9, Philip. 3:14, Col 1:21- 23, Heb 10:26-27, Heb 10:36, Heb 12:1).

It is funny--but we really are saying the same thing--but I can't figure out exactly what it is that makes our conclusions so different. To me--the grace of God., God's gift--is salvation. It is Jesus Christ. When I look up salvation--the definition given is not eternal life itself or even heaven. It says that salvation is deliverance from danger or difficulty, deliverance from the power or penalty of sin.

So when I think about it--salvation makes us free and able to be followers of Christ. The grace of God is forgiveness which is in Jesus Christ. So I think that unless you are saved first--unless you have the righteousness of Christ in you., you can't possibly begin to follow the Spirit rather than the lusts of the flesh.

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Romans 3:21-26

No One is Righteous on their own....

"What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes." Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." Romans 3:9-20

In other words--the law wasn't given to help us to be perfect, but to show us that we can't be perfect.

For me--those verses confirm that the Old Testament was given to reveal to us our sinful natures and also to open the door to Jesus Christ--who came to save us. When He saves us--He empowers us with His righteousness and with His perfection, so that we can possibly become more Christ-like. I agree that we need to work out our salvation--present tense., which means salvation that we have. The blessings are eternal life--which God--in His forknowledge., predestined all who will *believe* in His Son to save them.

I wonder if we understand just what *grace* means.., in the same way?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 03, 2004.

Faith, I still don't understand why you believe a person cannot obey while he/she is unsaved. The Bible teaches that faith is a work and a command (John 6:29, 1 John 3:23), therefore, even to "put on Christ" and to "have faith" requires obedience,,, is obedience.

Where we were before Christ: Judges 6

1 Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD , and for seven years he gave them into the hands of the Midianites...6 Midian so impoverished the Israelites that they cried out to the LORD for help. When the Israelites cried to the LORD because of Midian, 8 he sent them a prophet, who said, "This is what the LORD , the God of Israel, says: I brought you up out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 9 I snatched you from the power of Egypt and from the hand of all your oppressors. I drove them from before you and gave you their land. 10 I said to you, 'I am the LORD your God; do not worship the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you live.' But you have not listened to me."

The Command and Promise: Judges 6

12 When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon, he said, "The LORD is with you, mighty warrior." 13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian." 14 The LORD turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?" 15 "But Lord ," Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family." 16 The LORD answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."

Obedience Judges 7

1Early in the morning, Jerub-Baal (that is, Gideon) and all his men camped at the spring of Harod. The camp of Midian was north of them in the valley near the hill of Moreh.2 The LORD said to Gideon, "You have too many men for me to deliver Midian into their hands. In order that Israel may not boast against me that her own strength has saved her, 3 announce now to the people, 'Anyone who trembles with fear may turn back and leave Mount Gilead.' " So twenty-two thousand men left, while ten thousand remained. 4 But the LORD said to Gideon, "There are still too many men. Take them down to the water, and I will sift them for you there. If I say, 'This one shall go with you,' he shall go; but if I say, 'This one shall not go with you,' he shall not go." 5 So Gideon took the men down to the water. There the LORD told him, "Separate those who lap the water with their tongues like a dog from those who kneel down to drink." 6 Three hundred men lapped with their hands to their mouths. All the rest got down on their knees to drink. 7 The LORD said to Gideon, "With the three hundred men that lapped I will save you and give the Midianites into your hands. Let all the other men go, each to his own place." 8So Gideon sent the rest of the Israelites to their tents but kept the three hundred, who took over the provisions and trumpets of the others. The Promise Fulfilled Judges 7

19 Gideon and the hundred men with him reached the edge of the camp at the beginning of the middle watch, just after they had changed the guard. They blew their trumpets and broke the jars that were in their hands. 20 The three companies blew the trumpets and smashed the jars. Grasping the torches in their left hands and holding in their right hands the trumpets they were to blow, they shouted, "A sword for the LORD and for Gideon!" 21 While each man held his position around the camp, all the Midianites ran, crying out as they fled. 22 When the three hundred trumpets sounded, the LORD caused the men throughout the camp to turn on each other with their swords. The army fled to Beth Shittah toward Zererah as far as the border of Abel Meholah near Tabbath.

If the Lord did not want Israel to boast the victory, why didn't he strike down the Midianites with only one man? That certainly is possible for God. Did Gideon obey the angel of the Lord because the Medianites had been defeated or in order to defeat them?

We are hopelessly in sin before Christ. None of our efforts to merit eternal life will work. The promise of Christ is eternal life (John 3:16). His commands are simple (1 John 5:3) so that no man can boast of his own deeds (Eph 2:9), but only those who obey his commands will inherit the promise of Christ Matt 7:21. This is why Christ said "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door," (Luke 13:24) and why Peter pleaded "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation" (Acts 2:40).

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), June 03, 2004.

To Andy..,

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Not because he is doing and working his way into heaven--but because he is saved., as exhibited by the things he does.

Mt 24:13 ..but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Jesus was addressing his disciples who were, at that time, undergoing some severe persecution, which was only going to get worse. Times of trial serve to sift true Christians from false or fair-weather Christians.

Jesus' redemption at the cross had not yet occured--but to those who stood strong--they would be present at the time of Pentecost, when Jesus would send His Holy Spirit and empower all of them.

It is interesting to note the way in which His disciples went from cowards to strong men of God....even facing their own deaths with great confidence and courage. That is a far cry from the same men-- who ran and hid when Jesus was arrested and who even denied knowing Him, for fear of their lives.

Mt 25:45-46 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Again--this just addresses the difference between those who are saved by His righteousness by faith in Him--and those who were not.

Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Paul presents the idea that salvation is past, present and future. We are saved the moment we believe:

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Romans 3:22

Our new life (eternal life) begins the moment we believe--it is present because we are being saved through sanctification--and at the same time, we are not fully experiencing the total benefit and blessings of our salvation, which will be ours (future) when Christ returns to establish His kingdom. We can be confident of our salvation--present tense and look forward to the full realization of what that means. That is our hope.

Rom 14:11-12 It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "

Amen : )

1 Cor 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

If you read that in its context--you will see that Paul refers to the Jews who were not following the Spirit, but were rather--practicing idolatry and paganism. The warning is that if you do these things-- you aren't actually saved and you had better get it right with God.

Gal 6:8-9 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Again--it depends on how you look at salvation. If you are saved, you are able to follow the Spirit--if you are not, you will follow the flesh and sinful nature... Paul is reminding his hearers of the fact that they are not to follow the lust of the flesh...if they are reap the benefits of salvation.

Philip. 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Yes--eternal life is a blessing given to those who are saved.

Col 1:21- 23 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

I say amen again. But understand that Paul is not saying that they need to continue to earn their salvation--but that if they are saved and expect to receive the eternal blessings., it had better be evident in their deeds.

Heb 10:26-27 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Anyone who continues to *deliberately* sin after they supposedly received Christ--is not really saved to begin with. This simply means that we can't be saved by any other sacrifice other than that of Jesus Himself. This was actually addressed to Jews who were following at first--but then were returning to their old Jewish ways......

Heb 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

Which is eternal life....

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 03, 2004.

Faith,

I'm thinking that we are saying the same thing even if the words we use have different meanings for each of us. It reminds me of two people who speak different languages trying to describe the same animal to each other, and not even realizing it.

I'm not so sure any more that our conclusions are all that different. Maybe our difference lies in how we define "being saved." I guess I have been using the word interchangeably with eternal life with God. I think you are making the distinction that salvation is when we are saved from sin but that eternal life is a consequence of that.

I suppose what I have been trying to say is that in order to obtain eternal life with God, that we must obey Him in faith and love and that we can only do this by His grace. This would include the possibility that we can (of our own choosing) refuse His grace, disobey Him, lose our love for Him, lose our faith and trust in Him, and thus forfeit eternal life.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 03, 2004.

Andy..,

It would seem that we could lose entrance into heaven based on some Scripture verses--yet at the same time Jesus says that he cannot lose any of us who the Father has given Him.

I think that in God's forknowledge of us--knowing which ones of us would receive Christ in faith to the end.,and which ones would not-- he then predestined to their rightful blessings.....and since He knows the begining from the end., Jesus could confidently know that those who were saved--really saved--He would not lose..

Anyone who claimed the name Jesus but never lived it out--God also knew--therefore, they were not predestined in the first place.

Bear with me--I'm just thinking out loud!!

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 03, 2004.

Faith,

I have to ponder what you're saying a bit more, but I think I may actually agree with you. What I want to ponder on is how what you are saying aligns with our free will and the fact that God does not will or "predestine" anyone to hell. He wants all to be free from sin and to spend eternal life with Him. People must freely choose to reject and disobey God and thus choose themselves, or something else over Him in order to spend eternity without God.

Just thinking out loud too.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 03, 2004.

I agree Andy.,

I believe God created free-will creatures.

This is how I see predestination.., and election--which has to do with blessings. We are never elected to salvation or predestined to be saved. Nor do I find any Scripture that declares we are ever predestined to hell.

God decided those things (predestination and election), based on His forknowledge of what we did with His Son....

That's what I glean from the Scriptures anyway. We need to harmonize all of God's Word--and certainly we can't ingnore those things in His Word where God pleads with us to turn from our sinful ways. Certainly- that would be hypocritical of Him if in fact we couldn't turn from our sinful ways unless he first causes us to be able to do so. Clearly we are able to follow our conscience and choose God---and He richly blesses us for doing so.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 03, 2004.

Faith,

You have a problem though, man is depraved and can't/won't/has no desire to choose God. If God "predestines" according to those who have faith, then nobody would be going to heaven.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 03, 2004.

Ephesians 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 03, 2004.

David.,

So in your understanding of depravity--it equals inability?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 03, 2004.

Faith,

Read Romans 8:7-9

Romans 8 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 03, 2004.

1 Corinthians 2 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 03, 2004.

David.,

I don't see where either of those verses says we are unable to choose to follow the Spirit though--rather than the flesh.

The Bible repeatedly presents man's sinfulness and warns that rejecting the salvation God has provided in Christ leaves the sinner to suffer eternal punishment under the wrath of God.

Never, however, does the Bible suggest that because of Adam's original sin all of his descendents lack the ability to turn to God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Actually, I find that the Bible is filled with invitations to all men to repent toward God and believe on Christ to the saving of their souls.

Paul went everywhere preaching to everyone he encountered throughout the Roman Empire. Apparently he believed that anyone could respond.

In fact, David--all are commanded to repent and turn to Christ. Paul declared on Mars Hill--God..."commandeth all men everywhere to repent." Acts 17:30

To say that God commands men to do what they cannot do without His grace, then withholds the grace they need and punishes them eternally for failing to obey--don't you think--is to make a mockery of God's Word, His mercy and His love?

It is neither stated in Scripture nor does it follow logically that anyone, as a result of his depravity, even if his every thought is evil--is thereby unable to believe the glad tidings of the gospel and receive Christ as his Savior.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 03, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote,"I don't see where either of those verses says we are unable to choose to follow the Spirit though--rather than the flesh. "

Read these scriptures:

Romans 8 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

The unregenerate people are "hostile toward God". They "cannot please God" and "are not even able to do so".

1 Corinthians 2 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

The natural man "cannot" understand the "things of the Spirit of God". That is phrase of inablity.

John 6 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

"No one can come to Me", is another phrase of inablity.

Ephesians 2 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Colossians 2 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 03, 2004.

Romans 8 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

That verse just speaks to those who are not saved--their mind is set on the flesh vs those who are saved and whose mind is set on the things of the Spirit. Where in that do you conclude that one can not change that to which they set their mind? In otherwords, where does it say that one can't determine what they will follow?

The unregenerate people are "hostile toward God". They "cannot please God" and "are not even able to do so".

Still--where does it say that one cannot become regenerated without God first causing it? Becoming born-again happens when we believe....we don't believe because we are first born-again. It comes by faith.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

So what exactly is a natural man? I think a natural man is a man of the flesh. Where does it say that this man of the flesh cannot set his sights on the things of the Spirit simply by believing the gospel and becoming a man of the Spirit???

The natural man "cannot" understand the "things of the Spirit of God". That is phrase of inablity.

Don't you find your understanding to be an absurd injustice David? God is declaring that man is incapable of repentance and faith--and then he condemns them for it? Surely you are misrepresenting God....your understanding is flawed..

In my opinion--Paul is not refering to the gospel in 1 Cor. 2:14 anyway. The deeper truths, the wisdom of God in a mystery--even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our [the believer's] glory....the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him...the deep things that are freely given to us of God...which the Holy Spirit teaches, which are spiritually discerned (see 1 Cor 2:7)....surely that is what Paul is refering to.

John 6 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

I really think that you need to try and somehow harmonize your belief with other verses such as this: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11

What ability is actually needed to receive a gift anyway??

"No one can come to Me", is another phrase of inablity.

The point of that verse is that God does the saving--not man. God urges us by His Holy Spirit--but we still decide whether to believe or not. This is all the work of God--but God draws all men. And it is by His Son that we are saved. "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11

Ephesians 2 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

This still says nothing to the idea that we cannot choose God unless first regenerated by God.

Colossians 2 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Yes.., before we believed in Christ--our nature was evil. How did God make us alive together with Christ? It was accomplished at the cross. By faith--we joined Him in His death and resurrection. How? By receiving Him as our Savior....

For added interest... http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg2343.htm

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 03, 2004.