Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

I made this new thread because the other one was getting to long. It ended with Emily posting a "rebuttal":

"God warns us to continue following Him, as seen in the passages below. Such warnings would be unnecessary if our salvation could not be lost. I included the passages below in KJV, and I will put this in several posts so I don't make one long post since you said that's bad.

Hebrews 10 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2 Peter 2 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

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2 Peter 3 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Hebrews 3 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 Corinthians 9 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 John 2 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

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1 Corinthians 15 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Colossians 1 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Hebrews 2 1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Hebrews 3 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

2 Peter 1 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 07, 2004

Answers

Emily,

If you do no believe in God's predestinating grace, jesus being a perfect savior, men are dead in sin, etc, you have no reason for believing in "OSAS".

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 07, 2004.

David, I'm confused. I don't believe in OSAS - that was my point. So why do you say that I "have no reason for believing in 'OSAS'"?

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

Emily,

What I meant was that unless you believe in God's predestinating grace, jesus being a perfect savior, men are dead in sin, etc, then you have no reason for believing in "OSAS". Unless you're Reformed in theology, the idea of "Perseverance of the Saints" will sound silly and ridiculous to you.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 07, 2004.

David,

what do you think of King Saul?

After all he was anointed by the Propphet Samuel when God Yahweh asked to do so. So King Saul was saved.

Later, King Saul disobeyed. God Yahweh asked Samuel to anoint another as King: King David.

So did Saul lose salvation or not?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

David said: unless you believe in God's predestinating grace, jesus being a perfect savior, men are dead in sin, etc, then you have no reason for believing in "OSAS"

You are right about me, as I do not hold to OSAS. However, Faith does and she is not Calvinist. I think that comment should really be addressed to her. I don't really see its relevance for me.

David said: Unless you're Reformed in theology, the idea of "Perseverance of the Saints" will sound silly and ridiculous to you.

Actually, I went to a strongly Reformed college, and I just graduated from there after five years. I had to take their Bible classes and I was surrounded by Reformed Christians, including my roommate who believed in it very strongly. I even attended an Episcopal church while at college that had some members of the congregation as well as the priest who held to Calvinist theology. I know their arugments very well, and sometimes I play "devil's advocate" against my mom (Catholic) and pretend to hold the Calvinist view to see whether the Catholic view can stand up to it. I correct others when the Calvinist view is unfairly misrepresented, because I believe in accurately addressing what people believe, not a distorted version of it. It's just that I see the flaws in Calvinism and I don't agree. It is a man-made tradition, and I would never exchange that for the True Church (the Catholic Church). It is in the Catholic Church that I have found the fullness of God's Truth as revealed to us on earth.

The idea of "Perseverance of the Saints" is not silly and ridiculous. In fact, I was almost convinced. Although I think they are less accurate in their teachings, I respect that their theology is more intrinsically consistent than that of Arminians (I was raised attending a Nazarene church, which is Wesleyan and a branch of Arminian). Arminians are closer to the Catholic teaching about OSAS and salvation (ie. that it is possible to lose one's salvation), and while I believe that the Catholic understanding is the most consistent and the true one, I will admit that the Reformed understanding is more intrinsically consistent than the Arminian one.

This combination (raised Wesleyan, went to Reformed college) provided quite a challenge for me to search out the truth. I had many long discussions with Calvinists and Arminians, but especially a lot of Calvinists due to their strong presence at the college and tendency to have a solid knowledge of the Scriptures. They had all their arguments lined up, and many had the Westminster (Catechism or Confession?) memorized to defend their faith. Their commitment was truly admirable, but that does not make their teachings true. I had many such discussions with my roommate and other Calvinists, and I fully understand the TULIP doctrines of Calvinism, it is just that I disagree with them.

I found that when I presented them with certain verses they would have to do "mental gymnastics" to get around its real meaning and impose their own upon it. I also found myself struggling with many of the verses and issues I had never thought about before (eg. election, predestination), and I did not have an answer for them on these. Thus my Wesleyan roots were being questioned. This opened the door for my understanding of the Catholic faith, because I saw the flaws on both sides of the Arminian and Calvinist debates.

You might be interested in this article, David: How Close Can a Catholic Get to Calvinism?. I think the Calvinists are on to something with their doctrines of election, but they have taken it too far to the extreme. And without the Catholic view of salvation, things have gotten skewed in Calvinism regarding election.

Sorry if I offended. I was trying to present my perspective on the situation, and to let you know that I am fully aware of all the TULIP doctrines and their meanings.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

Elpidio,

In fact, I think this theme is played out again and again in the Bible. Even God's chosen turn against Him and are unfaithful, but then repentance is the key.

David,

Catholic theology also has a concept known as "perseverance of the saints", "perseverance of the elect", or "perseverance of the predestined." It is commonly called "the gift of final perseverance." I think it was promulgated by Aquinas. There are some important differences in the concept between the theologies, however.

So, to say "Unless you're Reformed in theology, the idea of "Perseverance of the Saints" will sound silly and ridiculous to you. " is not entirely correct, unless you are also referring to OSAS. There is no reason why a person cannot be predestined to "believe for a while" but "in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13).

In Catholic theology, there are people who experience initial salvation and who do not go on to final salvation. However, there is also a form of "perseverance of the saints." I think differing definition of terms may cause some confusion, though.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 07, 2004.

Andy,

I am refering to the Reformed doctrine known as "perseverance of the saints", which is commonly called OSAS by those not Reformed.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 07, 2004.

David,

Sorry for the last post. I posted nearly simultaneously as Emily did. Emily's response is better than what I came up with. You will see I pulled a line out of the link she provided to help explain my position. Either way, please ignore my post as it doesn't really add anything to the discussion.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 07, 2004.

Thanks for the clarification David.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 07, 2004.

David,

Do you not refer to the doctrine as "Once Saved, Always Saved"? I'm sorry - I was under the impression that people who believed in this would state it that way. I have heard people say that before (ie. "once you're saved, you're always saved").

As for the term "Perseverance of the Saints," this can get sticky. Catholics use this to say that the saints must continue to persevere in following God (ie. as an action), whereas the Reformed understanding is more like the saints will persevere. This leads to vastly different meanings and is part of the reason why I prefer to use the OSAS phrase. Also, others who believe in OSAS and do not hold to Calvinist theology don't usually use the phrase "perseverance of the saints," so I think it's better to include both groups as a whole when they agree on something. Sorry if I offended.

Andy,

Actually, I thought your post was great, especially since it elaborated on a point that I merely glossed over. Don't put yourself down like that -- I think it contributed well to the thread. Also, we seem to have this strange habit of posting almost simultaneously. We must be on the same wavelengths or something :) lol

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

Elpidio,

How is being anointed king of a nation equated with being saved?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 07, 2004.

Thanks Emily.

We've posted nearly simultanaeuosly (and with similar info) more than a few times. Usually, you're a few seconds quicker than I am. I'll have to brush up on my mouse clicking skills. I'm getting slow in my middle age ;)

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 08, 2004.

Anointed means Christ in Hebrew, David.

So if God predestined someone like Jesus Christ, King Saul, King david, Samuel,...to be his chosen ones, then, why no one can 100% claim that king Saul was saved? See story of king Saul and Samuel, and the story of the Witch of Endor.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), June 08, 2004.

Elpidio,

Would you please cite some scripture?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 10, 2004.