Prayers to the Saints

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Ok, so we all know that the bible prohibits communicating with the dead. Yet, Roman Catholicism teaches to pray to the Saints (who are dead btw). Ah! But they are alive in Christ right? So, basically, the bible prohibits comunicating with the "bad" dead?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004

Answers

And we can only communicate with the "good" dead?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.

What specifically makes the dead that your not suppose to talk too, different from the dead that you are allowed to talk too?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.

As long as they are alive in God's eyes, it's ok to talk to them?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.

What does DEAD mean?!?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.

Agh, I get :-)

We can't contact the "bad" dead, but we can contact the "good" dead, who aren't really dead. the only dead, dead, are the "bad" dead. but they are not really dead..because they can still comunicate.... :-/

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.



The difference is that if they are in heaven, they are not dead, they are alive. In the OT, it was forbidden because they were not yet in heaven with God until Jesus came. There is nothing in the NT forbidding it. Now God delivers the messages to them so that they can know to pray for us.

Also, what is forbidden is attempting to receive messages from people who are no longer on earth, by using evil means (eg. witchcraft). But there is nothing wrong with praying to God and to the Saints about this. Prayer does not mean worshipping them as gods. Rather, the meaning of prayer is simply petition.

Just as I could ask you to pray for me, so I could ask my brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for me. And all the more so, since they are in the very presence of God, and their faith has been perfected since they're in heaven. James 5 says the prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective. Do you wish to divide up the Body of Christ? No, there is a Communion of Saints that transcends the boundaries of this Earth. They know what we face and can constantly intercede for us in heaven.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 30, 2004.


The dead we are not allowed to communicate with are the spiritually dead, the lost, the damned. Those we are allowed to talk to are our briothers and sisters in Christ, the spiritually alive, those Christ referred to when He said "everyone who lives and believes in Me will NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?"(John 11:26) Apparently you do not believe this, if you insist that the saints are dead. God Himself said they would never die.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 04, 2004.

Emily, How do you know that they aren't in purgatory?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 13, 2004.

David, when someone is declared a "Saint" by the Catholic Church, that means they went straight to heaven upon their departure from Earth. Due to the grace that God gave them to persevere in faith and works, they had no need of purgatory.

This is differentiated from "saints," which represents all Christians. Outside of Catholic Church declaration of someone's Sainthood, we on earth do not know whether those who have passed are in heaven, purgatory, or hell. For this reason, we can only ask Saints to intercede for us, knowing that they will hear us due to their being in the presence of God. God delivers those messages to them because He delights in their intercession for us.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), July 13, 2004.


Emily,

Can you cite ANY biblical evidence that actually supports the claim that the "dead in Christ" are to be consulted by the living whatsoever?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 13, 2004.



Isaiah 8 19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 13, 2004.

"Apparently you do not believe this, if you insist that the saints are dead." - Paul

Then obviously you have not read any of Paul's writings where he refers to them as "dead in Christ".

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 13, 2004.


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16 / KJV

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 13, 2004.

No Gail, I have not argued this issue many times. In fact, this is the only post on this forum titled Praying to Saints. I did bring it up in the Catholic forum, and for a small period here back in 2003, but you are lying when you say I have brought it up "so many times".

I have not even mentioned this topic this year, until now (As I have been posting about baptism, etc,)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 13, 2004.


Please read our rules again.

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 13, 2004.



Revelations shows the saints conscious that "their blood hasn't been avenged." Revelations shows the elders handing vials of incense which are the prayers of the saints to the Lord. Hebrews shows that we are encircled by a whole host of saints. Paul says when we come to God we come to the whole heavenly host in full array.

We believe they are active and living with the Lord NOW and are participating with Him in his work. It is that simple.

-- Gail, 2004

[Edited out misrepresentations and sarcastic comment]

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 13, 2004.


Gail., you do understand that the saints in Revelation who wait for their blood to be avenged--are Tribulation Saints who died during the Tribulation period long after the church has been remeoved from the earth--right?

And it would be great if you would provide Scripture for your other statements so we can check and see if what you say rings true.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 13, 2004.


Excuse me, but who are you? Please state what your beliefs are along with your church affiliation.

Also, those kind of insults are not permitted on this forum. If you want to throw insults, go back to the Catholic forum.

Thank you.

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 13, 2004.


David, I didn't say that you brought this up on this forum. I do know we have discussed this at length somewhere, somehow, at some time on some forum.

Faith, I don't have time to look up the quotes right now. Perhaps I'll have time later. I know you and I have discussed this at length as well, perhaps on the other forum.

Moderator, you said "If you want to throw insults, go back to the Catholic forum." WHAT? Sarcasm from the moderator!! And just who gets to delete your sarcasms? Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), July 14, 2004.


"Also, those kind of insults are not permitted on this forum. If you want to throw insults, go back to the Catholic forum. "

So, what kind of insults are permitted?

"...go back to the Catholic Forum", you've left yourself wide open with that comment. I think we all know who you are.

.............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 14, 2004.


It appears as if this Luke came from the Catholic forum, where he might have picked up those bad manners.

Mr. Rodriguez, I think we all know who I am ;-) It's advertised on the bottom of the main page. Don't make a mystery of it.

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 14, 2004.


Sarcasm? Well, it's not as offensive as your comment towards David and Faith:

"Our whole court system is caught up in idolatry! You and Faith better get on 'em!!! - Gail

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 14, 2004.


Rod,

I take it we are no longer on a first name basis with the Moderator for on another thread, I was referred to as "Mr. Walker" and I noticed on this thread you are referred to as "Mr. Rodriguez".

Just thought that was interesting...

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 14, 2004.


Yes, that did kind of put a wrinkle on the rug.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 14, 2004.


"Revelations shows the elders handing vials of incense which are the prayers of the saints to the Lord" - Gail

" And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." - Revelation 8:3,4

The symbolic lanuage of this passage you are refering too has absolutely nothing to do with our ability to pray to those "dead in Christ".

The "incense" represents the prayers of Christians on earth, and they (prayers) are directed towards God ("...before God...").

How do you reconcile the clear teaching against communication with the dead (Isa 8:19) and your belief, given that the Apostle Paul considers the dead saints to be "dead in Christ"?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 15, 2004.


I think you have to remember that from a Catholic stand point, a great deal of emphasis is placed on tradition. The Church views tradition as at least on a par with scripture. "Not everything we're supposed to do was written down." THere's way too much. (Don't ask me to back that up with scripture...)

We're always asked to "back it up with scripture," but unfortunately for ecumenism, its not always as clear as a commandment. I personally can't remember the last time if ever, I have asked for intercession from a saint. (Well---Guilty---Maybe as a kid, St Anthony helped me find my glasses a few times) It's not a requirement... Neither are prayers to Mary. These seem to me to be rather unimportant stumbling blocks to interfaith dialogue. Catholics don't have to pray to Mary or to saints. This practice may help some feel closer to God. Where's the big problem here?

I think we wind up worrying so much about "correct belief" that we forget about the most important tenets of being a Christian. I personally do understand the sense behind the idea of adult baptism. It makes a lot of logical sense to me. But as a Catholic, I follow the rule. If we're wrong, I can't imagine a loving, perfect God splitting a hair so short.

"Faith and Works" for example begins to remind me of the "which came first? the chicken or the egg" mind puzzle. My orientation places quite a bit of importance on "works." As a somewhat lax Catholic, I personally tend to place even more emphasis on works than your average "good" Catholic. I can't believe that God would be disturbed about a few good works, even if the faith part was trying to catch up.

I really like everyone here, and over at the Catholic forum. I may be naive but would prefer to stay that way.

Still when I read the arguments, and re-arguments over the years on these boards about "faith and works," the distinction seems very vague. If you have faith, works will naturally follow. Catholics make a deliniation between the two. But... Faith and Works are still happening. What comes first? What does it matter if from Faith, works are the result.

If I ask Mary to pray for me, is God so small minded that he'd be offended if it turned out we "Catholics" had it wrong? We go round and round in circles and noone really wins the argument. Its truely unwinable, and in the long run, we just waste a lot of cybertime and end up angry with each other.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), July 15, 2004.


Well, yes. That's why I try really hard to keep from posting sometimes. I have to look at the big picture instead of all of the brush strokes. And, then there are times when those brush strokes really need to be paid attention to. So, I have to balance things to the best of my fallibility. Also, discussions via text instead of eye to eye does make for clumsy temperments.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.


I agree Rod,

My comments were not so much against the discussions, but perhaps against the vitriol that seems to rise out of what seems to me, to occasionally be nit picking. Its on both boards and people seem to get really angry at each other. I admit that I learn from the discussions...sometimes I find myself actually enjoying the feuds.

Maybe I'm a cyber-forum voyeur...

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), July 16, 2004.


"Its on both boards and people seem to get really angry at each other."

:-) I don't get angry. I understand that only God can give revelation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 16, 2004.


David?????

Anyway, I once made a comment on the other board. I was quickly blitzed from a regular. I knew why, so I retreated--tail between my legs. Sometimes people get overly defensive after being bombarded for so long that nuetral posters get in the cross fire and get all shot up. But, the victims sometimes can't understand what has just happened to them--cuz they are new.

If I can ever find my very first posts in the Catholic Forum, you can see how offensive my posts look from inside the church, but from out in the lawn bench the questions were honest ones. Somehow, there should have been a way to meet somewhere under the church porch with the questions and answers.

Things eventually got cleared up. Victory! both sides apologized and the picnic continued.

............................ ......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 16, 2004.


What does it take to be an apologist?

This forum is an example of many things I'm currently incapable of but am greatly moved by. How long does the energy I see here last? Is it a youth thing? I can remember "doing battle" when I was in my twenties with/against "fundamentalists." This was during my agnostic period, but I was very passionate at the time about my position then. It was almost a religion. Anti Bush is very passionate, 16 yrs old and not as far away as many would think from us God fearers... I've been there. (Lug too.)

I'm so impressed, on the Catholic side by Emily who is motivated to tirelessly find the answers at such a young age. David, Faith and Kevin though often at odds with each other are also true to their cause. I don't know everybody's age, I know David is young but I tend to suspect every body else might be guilty to some degree of "youth."... No sin. Elpidio, with loads of knowlege, perhaps off on a journey by himself at present, also deserves our respect. I think he's good. Reminds me of Quixote...a hero of mine. Hope you don't take that as an offence Elpidio. Quixote was no madman.

I hope I can get moved by some part of the spirit that generates the passion I see, (and am sometimes annoyed at from time to time) on this board.

I have never thought of myself as old till I realised ... I guess I am. Time's gettin short.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), July 17, 2004.


Well, if Elpidio is Don Quixote, I guess I'm Sancho Panza's cousin, Panza Huanga (Wobbly Stomach). (Just kidding.) Yes, I have felt old for a long time.

I received an email from a 16 year old, son of my old school buddy. It was an evangelical message to which I replied in order to refute one small issue. Boy! things turned ugly real fast. I received an apology from the dad explaining that his kids were on fire with the Holy Spirit. Of course, I understood it all and had already retreated with what was left of my dignity/ego only because of my age, I guess.

Believe it or not, age does open the windows to knowledge and wisdom. It does allow us to put the puzzles of life into some sort of understanding. But, that light is difficult to impress on the younger crowd. I'm sure it is because their lives are still discovering and experiencing the things we've long left behind. We, on the other hand, have a new starting place from which to begin our second adventure.

I haven't bought that motorcycle or Corvette just yet; I probably never will. But, that doesn't stop my long fast get-a-ways through lonely winding country roads, at least in my daydreaming trips to the grocery store. The problem seems that I find myself spending too much thought on death and dying. I think that may be a good thing, though. The closer we approach death, the closer we seek God. Suddenly, comes the realization that all of this religion is a momentary maze of confusion that may never be sorted out. What really matters are the simple things, which can't really be refuted. God exists and we must worship Him to the best of our existence and faith. If that means being dunked in the neighbor's pool or sprinkled with Holy Water during mass, well......if that's what it takes........we're only human.

....

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 17, 2004.


"I haven't bought that motorcycle or Corvette just yet; I probably never will. But, that doesn't stop my long fast get-a-ways through lonely winding country roads, at least in my daydreaming trips to the grocery store. The problem seems that I find myself spending too much thought on death and dying. I think that may be a good thing, though. The closer we approach death, the closer we seek God.

This made 100% complete sense; I think it really is a good thing, those contemplations, especially matched against other objectively good, but passing, things such as the motorcycles. I believe when you forgo, or at least put into their proper context, those passing goods, you will recieve many more times in return later. Those things are shadows or better things.

"Suddenly, comes the realization that all of this religion is a momentary maze of confusion that may never be sorted out."

But it really has all been sorted out. It consists mostly of doctrines, which are the best of these kinds of things:

"...simple things, which can't really be refuted." followed up of course by living them from the point of acceptance all the way to the conclusion of life. Hope you don't mind my butting in, but sometimes you make a lot of sense.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 17, 2004.


Hi Emerald.

Butting in?? Naw, that's the whole idea. We are all in this together.

There is this road called "Irene Road" in Belvidere, Illonios. It leads to a speck of a town next to a railroad track. The population of Irene looks like maybe 10 or 15 people. Anyway, that road has fun hill by kids enjoy when we zip by in our truck. They experience zero gravity at just the right drop as my wife and I get tickled by their innocent laughter. I keep telling myself that one day I shall take that slope on my motorcycle. Now, that I think about it, I have already taken that slope with moments in life that I may never experience again. My kids will continue to have their tummies tickled by centrifigal force until they become busy adults. Of course, they will be tickled by the laughter of their kids as they zoom over those hills in the road.

Irene, Illinois, you guys give us more than a slow pass on the way to grandma's house, thanks.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 17, 2004.


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