Portland Archdiocese making the right decision?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

Is the Portland (OR) Archdiocese making the right decision by filing for bankruptcy? Should the Boston Archdiocese be doing the same thing instead of selling off valuable Church property?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=6&u=/ap/20040706/ ap_on_re_us/archdiocese_bankruptcy

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), July 06, 2004

Answers

I don't agree with this at all,When i lived in Pittsburgh the same thing was occuring,they took 4 of the local parishes and lumped them together in one and i so missed the very old churches.Pittsburgh has quite a large Catholic population,but so many people are moving from Pittsburgh the diocese didn't have much choice but to close/and sell. But i don't know if bankruptcy is the answer either. I now live in the south where the Catholic population is very small but our Diocese and parishes do very well,so well that we are planning a new addition to our church hall,The church i attend here is the oldest here in columbia South carolina(ST.Peter's)a little history....St. Peter's Catholic Church The Mother Church Of Catholics In The Midlands St. Peters parish celebrated its 175th anniversary of service to our Lord and the people of central South Carolina in 1996. Founded as an outreach to Irish canal workers in 1821, the mission has always been commitment to Christian growth, education, and service to the poor in the community. St. Peter's Catholic Church is South Carolina's oldest parish outside of Charleston, and it supports a diverse congregation. Parishioners travel from forty-one zip code areas each Sunday to celebrate Eucharist as a community.

So i think alot has to do with how many people and how many churches and how economical to keep all running ???

peace be with you all...

-- Andrew m Tillcock (drewmeister7@earthlink.net), July 06, 2004.


OOPS that almost sounds like i said the Diocese of Pittsburgh closed,sorry i meant sell and close alot of parishes.

-- Andrew m Tillcock (drewmeister7@earthlink.net), July 06, 2004.

The only real answer is to campaign to amend the laws so that:

- a limit is placed on how much can be awarded (especially against third parties) in civil suits for damages; and

- churches are granted immunity from such suits.

In New South Wales, Australia, we have the farcical situation where the State government has passed laws exempting the State from being sued for knowingly placing pedophile teachers in State school classrooms (which it did); while dioceses, Catholic schools and religious orders are being sued for the same thing. The double standard is breathtaking, but for some reason nobody seems to object much. Maybe the bishops don’t want to complain for fear that they’ll be seen as condoning the abuse and that it might encourage further suits against them.

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), July 06, 2004.


Peter, IMO, no one should be exempted from civil remedy. A payment for damages is sometimes the only possible corrective measure. And, sometimes it is the only deterrent.

Should Boston declare bankruptcy? I found something the other day -- there was a story (but I don't have it readily available) the said that Boston had planned on closing some parishes long before the sexual abuse scandal. Someone else may know about it.

I believe the Church should place the members of the Church first. If I was bishop, I declare bankrupcy before selling anything (as long as the sexual abuse victims were taken care of).

But, also, if I was bishop, I'd sell the bishop's residence and live in a rented one bedroom apartment before harming a parish.

But, I'm a strong advocate for a "poor church", rich in charity.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), July 07, 2004.


The trouble with money is it's only money. It's not putting someone in prison (I mean a real prison, not the "country club" types most white-collar criminals go to). These victims waited too long before even bringing up these cases, in several instances. And they aren't going after the persons who did the "sweeping under the rug" so to speak because unlike other companies of its size these are NOT highly compensated individuals and have no money to go after.

So, I suppose then that one option is for parishioners to then earmark all their donations in writing so that they cannot be used for payments?

Not to mention most of the money is going to lawyers on both sides.

As to Boston, there had been some talk of closing some parishes, but it was mostly because the scandal had made for a reduction in donations over time as well as attendance....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), July 07, 2004.



This is a much more interesting article from the Seattle Times describing the unique challenges the Portland Archdiocese faces and why it is more or less forced into this situation....

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001973654_bankrupt07m.html

These articles disappear in a week or so, so read them while you can....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), July 07, 2004.


The problem with the way this is presented in the press is that it is never clear "who pays" for such judgments. I know a large number of parish priests and a good number of priests who work in diocesan offices. Here are the facts:

1. The typical parish has very little liquid capital. I know of no parish where there was sufficient money on hand to pay for a new car in full. Most building, churches and parish centers have large morgages. I suggest you look at the size of the collection in any typical parish (they are often reported in the bulletin) and you will see that the donations typically just cover operating expenses and that anyting more requires repeated "special collections" or fund drives.

2. There are religious orders of both priests and nuns and both groups received income from laypeople as donations. The order priests parishes are no different from those of the diocesan clergy in terms of money. There are also schools and hospitals but their running expenses usually greatly outstrip donations. Some of these get money from the government (very little) some balance their budgets by grants from the diocese. Religious orders of nuns tend to have much real estate in terms of their numbers (which are dropping). They are usually selling this off to pay for the medical and retirement extpenses of older nuns.

3. The only place a diocese ("the bishop") gets money is from taxing the parishes. This is called a "cathedraticum" and varies from 0% of the money collected to 25% depending on how "weathly" the parish is. These funds are used to subsidize poor parishes, Catholic schools, and retirement of clergy and nuns. There is usually some investment, but not very much and it is mostly intended for retirement.

4. Have you noticed where the money comes from? LAY PEOPLE. Do you see what the money is used for? Ministry to LAY PEOPLE. So how do dioceses (bishops) pay court judgements? In the past these judgments were rare and occasional and often covered by insurance for "clerical malpractice." Now the amounts are huge and come all at one--and insurers, if they even exist, often find reasons not to pay.

5. So how do "bishops" pay: First, they liquidate investments (that means they destroy the retirement funds for priests and nuns). Next, they raise the taxes on parishes (i.e. the bishop has to take more money from the collection). If that does not work, the only recourse is to cut subsidies for schools. Beyond that one can sell off real estate--i.e. close parishes.

6. End of story. Every judgment against "the Church" is a judgment against YOU if you are a Catholic.

-- Outsider (NT@nospam.com), July 07, 2004.


Yes, because the Church is the Body of Christ, and each Catholic is individually a member of that Body, anything that happens to the Body affects all the members, and anything that affects a member affects the Body at least in a small way.

"And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.?" (1 Corinthians 12:26)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 07, 2004.


Andrew,

E-mail me privately. I would love to talk to you about St. Peter's. That was my home parish in Columbia for many years.

Pax et Bonum.

Thomas

-- Thomas (psalm23@catholic.org), July 08, 2004.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ