Mr. Walker opined: King Agrippa in Acts 2:27 had FAITH, but he was NOT saved because he did NOT obey the gospel hence he did NOT become a Christian. Here is a man who had FAITH and you say that one is saved by faith WITHOUT having to be baptized and yet he did NOT become a Christian.

Think about it!!!

Mr. Darity: You'd better check your reference there. ;) Also, Agrippa did not believe in Christ. He believed in the prophets, but not in Jesus.

Mr. Walker: It was the prophets in the Old Testament who foretold of the Messiah and Paul was merely confirming this fact by stating that Christ WAS the Messiah. Since King Agrippa believed the prophets, he believed in Christ however he did NOT believe enough to obey all that God commanded one must do in order to become a Christian.

Mr. Darity: Agrippa did not believe in Jesus. There's no way you can say he had faith in Jesus..

It's faith that God accounts us righteous, faith in Jesus. It's a specific faith. Agrippa did not have this faith, as you claimed.

Therefore, you cannot use Agrippa as an example of someone who has faith in Jesus, but doesn't have works. He didn't believe in Jesus.

Those who believe in Jesus are justified, even before works manifest.

Mr. Walker responded:

Mr. Walker quoted Mr. Darity: "Agrippa did not believe in Jesus. There's no way you can say he had faith in Jesus."

Mr. Walker replied: Paul DISAGREES with you for he PLAINLY stated, in Acts 26:22-23 "22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those WHICH THE PROPHETS AND MOSES SAID WOULD COME-- 23 THAT THE CHRIST WOULD SUFFER, THAT HE WOULD BE THE FIRST TO RISE FROM THE DEAD, and WOULD PROCLAIM LIGHT TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND TO THE GENTILES"

Continuing in Acts 26:26-27, "26 For the king, before whom I also speak freely, KNOWS THESE THINGS; for I am convinced that none of these things escapes his attention, since this thing was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, DO YOU BELIEVE THE PROPHETS? I KNOW that YOU DO BELIEVE."

It is OBVIOUS that King Agrippa did BELIEVE THE PROPHETS when they spoke about CHRIST. Did the King say, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian."??? (Acts 26:28).

Why would he have made that statement if he did NOT believe???

He BELIEVED in Christ, otherwise Paul would NOT have said that he did. He did NOT believe in Christ enough to DO what Paul told him to do which was to obey the gospel.

Mr. Walker quoted Mr. Darity: "Therefore, you cannot use Agrippa as an example of someone who has faith in Jesus, but doesn't have works. He didn't believe in Jesus."

Mr. Walker replied: You have said that faith ALONE saves. If faith ALONE saves, then you CANNOT say that one MUST have WORKS in order to believe in Jesus.

Mr. Darity responded:

Mr. Darity quoted Mr. Walker: "It is OBVIOUS that King Agrippa did BELIEVE THE PROPHETS when they spoke about CHRIST. Did the King say, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian."??? (Acts 26:28)."

Mr. Darity replied: Why would he have made that statement if he did NOT believe???

Mr. Darity quoted Mr. Walker: "He BELIEVED in Christ, otherwise Paul would NOT have said that he did. He did NOT believe in Christ enough to DO what Paul told him to do which was to obey the gospel."

Mr. Darity replied: No Kevin. Agrippa may have believed that the Christ would come, even as the Jews believe today, but he rejected Jesus as the Christ. You cannot say Agrippa trusted in Jesus just because he believes in the Jewish idea of a coming Messiah. The Jews believed in a coming Messiah, but they refused to believe that Jesus was the One. Most Jews still reject Him as the Christ, but they believe in the coming of the Messiah still.

Again, you cannot use Agrippa as an example of a man who trusted in Jesus but did not have works. Agrippa was not persuaded that Jesus was the Messiah. He even said this plainly.

Unfortuntely, in his heart, Agrippa didn't come to trust in Jesus as Savior. At least not in this account. Maybe he did later.

Mr. Darity quotes Mr. Walker: "You have said that faith ALONE saves. If faith ALONE saves, then you CANNOT say that one MUST have WORKS in order to believe in Jesus."

Mr. Darity replied: I never said you must have works in order to believe in Jesus. I've said over and over that works will follow faith, like a railcar follows the train engine. The train engine is not alone, but it alone is credited for moving the train.

Faith is not alone, but faith alone (only) is credited as righteousness... in other words, our works receive no credit towards justification. Only faith gets the credit.

I'm not sure how to more clearly express this in human language...

Mr. Walker responded:

Mr. Walker quotes Mr. Darity: "No Kevin. Agrippa may have believed that the Christ would come, even as the Jews believe today, but he rejected Jesus as the Christ."

Mr. Walker replied: No, Paul said that Agrippa DID BELIEVE. Just because one believes in Christ does NOT mean that they are saved. Faith alone salvation is DEAD for this is exactly the kind of faith King Agrippa had, faith with NO works. He had faith, and this did NOT save him.

Mr. Walker quotes Mr. Darity: "Again, you cannot use Agrippa as an example of a man who trusted in Jesus but did not have works. Agrippa was not persuaded that Jesus was the Messiah. He even said this plainly."

Mr. Walker replied: No Agrippa didn't say this plainly, he stated "you ALMOST persuade me to become a Christian." Paul said he believed, why do you have a problem understanding what is written???

Mr. Darity responded:

Mr. Darity quotes Mr. Walker: "No, Paul said that Agrippa DID BELIEVE. Just because one believes in Christ does NOT mean that they are saved. Faith alone salvation is DEAD for this is exactly the kind of faith King Agrippa had, faith with NO works. He had faith, and this did NOT save him."

Mr. Darity replied: No, Agrippa did not have faith in Jesus. You maybe were taught that, but there's no indication from the scripture that he trusted in Jesus. He may have believed in the fact of a Christ coming for the Jews, but he never trusted in the person Jesus Christ. The more you insist he did, the more you discredit yourself.

Mr. Darity quotes Mr. Walker: "No Agrippa didn't say this plainly, he stated "you ALMOST persuade me to become a Christian." Paul said he believed, why do you have a problem understanding what is written???"

Mr. Darity replied: He believed the prophets just as the Pharisees believed in Moses etc, but the Pharisees didn't believe in Jesus. Agrippa didn't trust in the person of Jesus as his Savior. There's no way an honest reader could ever come up with this idea. In fact, he said he was NOT persuaded to believe in Jesus as the Christ.

Mr. Walker responded:

Mr. Walker quotes Mr. Darity: "No, Agrippa did not have faith in Jesus. You maybe were taught that, but there's no indication from the scripture that he trusted in Jesus. He may have believed in the fact of a Christ coming for the Jews, but he never trusted in the person Jesus Christ. The more you insist he did, the more you discredit yourself."

Mr. Walker replied: I didn't say that Agrippa had faith, Paul said it, and obviously you have a problem with what Paul wrote through inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Paul said that Agrippa believed, Max says he didn't. I choose to believe God.

Mr. Walker quotes Mr. Darity: "He believed the prophets just as the Pharisees believed in Moses etc, but the Pharisees didn't believe in Jesus. Agrippa didn't trust in the person of Jesus as his Savior. There's no way an honest reader could ever come up with this idea. In fact, he said he was NOT persuaded to believe in Jesus as the Christ."

Mr. Walker replied: Actually, some of the rulers DID believe in Jesus, they did NOT confess Jesus for they were afraid they would be put out of the synagogue. (John 12:42-43). Here are some rules who BELIEVED in Jesus, yet they were NOT saved. So much for faith ALONE salvation.

Mr. Darity responded:

Mr. Darity quotes Mr. Walker: "I didn't say that Agrippa had faith, Paul said it, and obviously you have a problem with what Paul wrote through inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Paul said that Agrippa believed, Max says he didn't. I choose to believe God."

Mr. Darity replied: Paul said Agrippa believed the prophets. That doesn't mean Agrippa was persuaded that Jesus was the Christ.. leading to faith in Jesus.

Your credibility, not mine.

Mr. Walker responded:

Mr. Walker quotes Mr. Darity: "Paul said Agrippa believed the prophets. That doesn't mean Agrippa was persuaded that Jesus was the Christ.. leading to faith in Jesus. Your credibility, not mine."

Mr. Walker replied: If Agrippa believed the prophets (and he did), then he believed Jesus for the prophets are the ones who spoke of Jesus.

Mr. Darity responded:

Mr. Darity quotes Mr. Walker: "If Agrippa believed the prophets (and he did), then he believed Jesus for the prophets are the ones who spoke of Jesus."

Mr. Darity replied: There were many who claimed to be the Christ that the prophets foretold. Are you telling me that Agrippa believed in every one of those who claimed to be the Christ?

Seriously... Agrippa didn't believe Paul's claim that Jesus was the promised Christ. He may have believed in the promised Christ, but he did not trust in Jesus as that Christ.

Agrippa did not believe in Jesus as the Christ that the prophets foretold. The reason he was "almost persuaded" was because he did believe that the Christ would come someday, but he failed to see that Jesus was that Christ, just as the Jews in general failed to see it and crucified Jesus, even though they still believed a Christ would come someday.

Agrippa did not believe in Jesus as you insist he did. If you can't see the distinction, I know it's not because I fail to help you see it.

Mr. Walker responded:

There are more than 300 prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament. Paul said, "King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe." (Acts 26:27).

Paul spoke about Christ when he said in Acts 26:19-23, "19 "Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come-- 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."

Paul was NOT talking about those who CLAIMED to be Christ NOR did he mention this in his defense.

The evidence is indisputable, Paul preached Christ to Festus and to Agrippa. Those who recognized the inspiration of the Old Testament looked forward to his coming, and many, on the basis of proof, obeyed Him for Agrippa said in Acts 26:28, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian."

Agrippa believed that Christ was the Messiah and Paul preached the gospel to him however, like many people today this faith is NOT enough to DO what God commands one MUST do in order to be saved.

Mr. Darity responded:

Mr. Darity quotes Mr. Walker: "The evidence is indisputable, Paul preached Christ to Festus and to Agrippa."

Mr. Darity replied: Obviously he preached Jesus Christ. That goes without saying. Agrippa truly believed that the Christ (annointed one) would come. He did not, however, believe the man named Jesus of Nazereth was this Christ.

Agrippa believed in the prophecy of "the Christ." = Yes. Agrippa believed Jesus was "the Christ." = No. He was not persuaded.

There is not one scripture that says Agrippa was convinced that the man named Jesus of Nazereth was the Christ.

Mr. Walker responded:

Mr. Walker quotes Mr. Darity: "There is not one scripture that says Agrippa was convinced that the man named Jesus of Nazereth was the Christ."

Mr. Walker replied: If Agrippa believed the prophets (and he did), then he believed that Jesus was the Christ. One can believe in Jesus Christ and still NOT do what He says.

Agrippa believed that Jesus was the Christ however his faith was NOT strong enough to become a Christian.

Mr. Darity responded:

Mr. Darity quotes Mr. Walker: "If Agrippa believed the prophets (and he did), then he believed that Jesus was the Christ."

Mr. Darity replied: No. You can believe in the coming Messiah, like the Pharisees did, but reject that Jesus is the person he claims to be.

Just because Agrippa believed in a coming Messiah does not automatically mean he trusted Jesus as that Messiah. I'm not sure how you can't see the distinction here... it's simple. Even John the Baptist wasn't perfectly sure about who Jesus was when he was in jail.

Mr. Darity quotes Mr. Walker: "One can believe in Jesus Christ and still NOT do what He says"

Mr. Darity replied: Of course, we're all sinners. Even you disobey Christ.

Mr. Walker responded:

Mr. Walker replied: Agrippa said that Paul ALMOST persuaded him to become a Christian. One can believe in Christ and still NOT be saved.

Mr. Darity responded:

Mr. Darity quotes Mr. Walker: "Agrippa said that Paul ALMOST persuaded him to become a Christian. One can believe in Christ and still NOT be saved.

Mr. Darity replied: Again... Agrippa did not trust or rely on Jesus for his salvation. He may have believed in the CONCEPT of a Christ, but he did not trust in the PERSON named Jesus of Nazereth. He rejected faith in Jesus of Nazereth - not just in action, but in his heart.

Seriously... you cannot pass Agrippa off as someone who trusted Jesus in his heart for salvation. Don't waste your time.

Mr. Walker responded:

Mr. Walker quotes Mr. Darity: "Again... Agrippa did not trust or rely on Jesus for his salvation. He may have believed in the CONCEPT of a Christ, but he did not trust in the PERSON named Jesus of Nazereth. He rejected faith in Jesus of Nazereth - not just in action, but in his heart."

Mr. Walker replied: Paul said that Agrippa believed the prophets concerning Jesus however, his faith was NOT strong enough to obey the gospel so, he was not saved. One can believe in Jesus Christ and not be saved.

Mr. Walker quotes Mr. Darity: "Seriously... you cannot pass Agrippa off as someone who trusted Jesus in his heart for salvation. Don't waste your time."

Mr. Walker replied: Paul said Agrippa did believe in Christ, that is why he was "almost persuaded" to become a Christian.

End.

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 16, 2004

Answers

>Mr. Walker replied: Paul said Agrippa did believe in Christ, that is why he was "almost persuaded" to become a Christian. <

Agrippa did not believe that the one Man named Jesus of Nazereth was the Christ. This is part of justifying faith.

Agrippa had no works because he had no revelation that this one man named Jesus of Nazereth was the Christ he was hoping for.

Agrippa DID NOT believe (trust) or have faith in (hope) in Christ in the "justifying faith" sense.

Therefore, one cannot use Agrippa as an example of someone with justifying faith that has no works. Agrippa had no justifying faith in his heart to begin with.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 23, 2004.