Prints missing from jobsgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Elevator Problem Discussion : One Thread
So your sitting in the courtroom and the attorney is asking you what you actually did to the elevator when you responded to the service call that an hour later killed a person in a tragic way. “Gosh” you say “There were no prints on the job so I kind of just guessed.” “Oh” the attorney says (with a victorious grin) “you just guessed”. Could this happen? You bet your ass. This bullshit of going to a job with no prints is not only riduclicous, its unsafe. With all the new installations in the last 10 years and with all the old timers retiring there is a lot of T.M’s and new mechanics out there. So company A, if company B outbids you, don’t steal the prints. That is so chicken shit. That reminds me when the Dover boys would tape the battery in the C.O.P so when the mainline was thrown all ram was lost and a hoist way scan had to be imitated. T.M’s when you get to a job with no prints, inform your supervisor. Someone needs to step up and be responsible for this shit. 29 years in the trade and Im tired of this shit. Lets work to solve this problem. Our job is already dangerous enough, why compound it with guessing.
-- Macky (Macky@sciti.com), August 11, 2004
Macky, Customers are provided with prints when the job is turned over, it's up to them to remember where they put them. Besides most manufacturers will sell you prints if you ask them. It's not that I'm disagreeing with you but if the supt. says get the prints off the job you gotta do it. I get more pissed when we take a job knowing we don't have prints, refuse to buy the prints then give you a set of hydro prints from the same manufacturer, but the catch is your working on a geared car 30 years newer then the hydro on the prints go figure......
-- Clark (email@example.com), August 11, 2004.
Regretfully, the prints are not given to the owners when the elevator is turned over, they lay in the machine room. On occasion a good technician will make a binder of sort and hang them. Usually they make it into the controller or lay in a cabinet. Its not until the owner uses another service provider and the prints come up missing; that the owner gets the picture and realizes they should have copies. This does happen over and over.
You make a good point macky, taking the prints does more harm than good at the technician level.
-- john (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 12, 2004.
Macky, When I worked for the Big O ( 15 years with them ) we had a Service Manager that worked for a while that was a tyrannt when it came to stealing prints off jobs, leaving all kinds of booby traps and stuff to make it hard on the new service provider. This guy actually got off on doing shit like that, and guess where he went ? Straight to the damn top. I'm glad that i'm working now for a company ( our office anyway ) that always leaves the jobs in good shape, prints there, and in a professional manner when we lose a job to a competitor. I've actually been sent to a few jobs we lost to help the competitor get it running when they couldn't find the problem. Guess what i'm trying to say is... Real Elevator Men Dont Steal Prints and do shit to mess with a competitor. In this business, INTEGRITY is EVERYTHING at the service mechanics level, although our managers and those above only see Dollars. Good topic, I'm glad you posted...
-- Bill (email@example.com), August 12, 2004.
This is a age old problems and I have all sales people when surveying jobs make a complete survey of prints,manuals and take pictures of them. Then tell the owner to copy the prints before the other co has a chance to take them. I know a large independant that never left prints on a job, you used standard prints and if you needed the originals you signed out for them and then returned them, they did that for 50 years that way.The other thing I have seen is the bug in the software after so many counters the doors wont close and the new company cant fix it and the OEM gets the contract back. With all the lame code changes (like no alarms bells anymore)all the time you would think this print problem would be addressed. The other thing is pull sheets, most consultants dont even cover thme on their spec. and most times it ends up being the binder paper mess and the mech is so embarased with them he takes them home, that should be code compliance item also. The problem is the large prints are $3 a square foot to copy and no one wants to pay.
-- Jim (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 12, 2004.
I've seen this happen over and over through the years. At least half of the new service contracts I receive do not have prints. I always make sure I leave prints to the new service company. Remember, if the customer has never spent any money to upgrade his piece of junk elevator, you want to make it as easy as possible for the new service company to maintain it ! I don't want to get it back on my route again !
-- Jim Hagerty (email@example.com), August 15, 2004.
it is a huge industry problem i'v only been around 10yrs thru the trades and have learnt to adapt and to expect the unexpected. even on newer jobs I have found circuit mods not drawn up due to the pressures on instilation crews, the industry standards i think are slowly dropping due to undercutting pressures which i think will yet cause further problems i tend to watch my own back and check all paper work i hand about its going to take an accident to tidy things up again, self regulation is ok if u have a high standard to follow but all company's are sliding together i wk hard to maitain my own standards and refuse to doctor or take drawings and if i can help or offer advice at a personal level to a fellow mechanic without hurting my firm i will, it generally goes both ways with those with good ethics. Good luck to all doing the right thing if we keep it up it will remain a safe industry
-- mike (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 16, 2004.
This is a worldwide problem that has gone on for decades.As an industry we have been lucky that the courtroom scenario has not come up.Remember guys, that the colleague you rely to save you from getting yourself injured or killed on a site, may well be the guy who got injured when YOU removed the drawings from HIS last job.(sexist I know but you get the picture) Leave them on site. By all means get copies made. If it is fading so it becomes hard to read, draw over it to bring back the clarity, don't wait until you can't see it. How many of us have not been able to read them because someone left them in the sun If you do a modification mark it on the drawing and a short explanation of what you were trying to achieve Hopefully this website could be the start of the end of this problem. If anyone needs drawings ask on this website and if any one has them post them on to those requiring them or maybe companies should put them on the web themselves so that they are freely available???? just a thought, and I doubt that it would happen, but the moderator may be able to look into doing this
-- geoff judge (email@example.com), August 16, 2004.
Exelent point, thanx. I faced this problem all my 25 years in industry, specially when you're pulling wires to find the problem on 50 years old printless controller and shop is wondering how come you're working one hour and still can't say what caused the problem. It's besides all safety issues. Here is the problem: normal people go on forums like this, care about prints, never steal them... how many people like this? 20%? 30? The rest will always steal them they don't care, they don't even know that there is a forum where they can get some info, and nothing will make them better. And they will always be wondering how come you have a print for this job (just because 10 years ago it was your route and you made a copy and kept it home knowing that it could disappear). So the next generation of elevator mechanics will have the same problems. Unfortunately.
-- Danny Way (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 21, 2004.
I guess the answer is we shouldn't take the job unless sales is sure they have prints, or sure they can support the product. Maybe in a perfect world like 30 or 40 yrs ago we should all just maintain our own equpiment and not cut our competitors throats, nah - then the mom and pop shops would complain. Truth be told the industry has giving away to lies and sales, bottom line the customer doesn't matter neither do we just the almighty dollar and everything else is secondary........ atleast thats my take on it, but think about it when you go on jobs with your salesman and stab your brothers in the back pointing out the 38 machine with a leak or the pie plate that is worn on the selector, you wern't worried about those prints then were you?
-- Clark (email@example.com), August 25, 2004.
Whoever said that you can call the installation company and they will give you prints isn't living in this world. Try to get a set of prints from Otis, Thyssen, Or Schindler. Good Luck.
-- tj (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 01, 2004.
Hey Guys, It's simple, we as elevator constructors are not "Thieves", If asked to take prints off a job, just don't do it. If you are in service you probably don't have time to get by that job due to the grossly number of units on your route. If not in service use your imagination, just don't do it. I know the companies don't believe this until billing time but the ELEVATORS BELONG TO THE BUILDING OWNERS NOT THE ELEVATOR COMPANY. In the past 20 years I've adjusted and turned over elevators for three of the big four. I always tell the owners to make three copies of THEIR prints. One for the machine room, on for the maintence shop, and one for the office. If the Company wants someone to steal for them let someone from sales handle it. BE SAFE!!!
-- Lee Alley (email@example.com), September 03, 2004.
Next time your spineless "stupervisor" tells you to "steal" the prints from a job, tell him to do it his/her self, cause that's what it is, "stealing property'! They usaully ask you by phone (cause their never on your jobs anyway), at which time you can inform the property owner/manager to make copies and keep originals in file away from company "stupervisors" when he decides to clean-off a job! "Proud to Be a Union Elevator Constructor"
-- T.C. Marvin (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 22, 2004.
I'm a maintenance supervisor with USA Management in willoughby, Ohio. We are having a hard time acquiring blue prints for the safety controls, for the elevator violations. If the installer for our acension 1000 had left the prints with us, it would of solved a few problems. Getting a wire diagram for a Otis 10N1GL diagram 287021 A is also a problem.Most of our elevators were installed in the 1950's and the buildings previous owned. And of course our leaders didnt have the forethought to acquire said blueprints.
-- David A. Derk (email@example.com), February 10, 2005.
I', afraid you'll have to go directly to the manufacturers. Otis charges something like $250.00 per page, and with a 6 program you'll have a ton of pages. It'll be tough, but you may be able to define what pages you need so that you don't get all the pages with material that you'll never need. You only want the pages with actual schematics and the pages with the coil names and contact locations.
I think you may be able to get the US stuff from Vertex Good Luck
-- Dan (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 11, 2005.
whoops sorry, I got 6 program from another thread. Same advice still applies though.
-- Dan (email@example.com), February 11, 2005.
DAn Thanks for the response. Well Otis had responded with they cant find this pit powered cable elevator through their Unitech archive. Well I'll keep searching.
-- David A. Derk (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 13, 2005.
-- Dan (email@example.com), February 13, 2005.
Come on Guys think for just 1 min . The "Boss" tells you at the shop to go steal the prints off the job they just lost say OK .. Go out to your truck and down to Radio Shack and buy a tape recorder. Next call "Boss" on Nextel and ask in a serious tone what he wanted you to do at that job? Of course your taping evey word coming out your mouth and his. Then take it to your BA. SIMPLE
-- Richard (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 13, 2005.
Well I posted two questions on this Elevator forum, and have received a response. Still waiting for a few responses, since I can only go online after 6 P.M. Question headlines are now on Dover and wiring diagrams needed.
-- David A. Derk (email@example.com), February 14, 2005.
The prints belong to the customer. End of story. I've been doing this for 25 years and I always tell my Brothers and Sisters that the Company "Logo's" can come and go, but that "Union Logo" is forever. So, why would you want to screw over one of your own!? Remember, what goes around, comes around.
-- Al (Al E Vtr@aol.com), February 27, 2005.