Saints and Idolatry

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I'm asking forgivness ahead of time because I'm kind of ignorant on a few things.

I was reading through the archives and I ran across a few posts that dealt with praying to saints. I believe one of the reponses implied that it was okay to pray to the saints (who are dead). I have been to the "Grotto" (sp?) in Portland, OR. There are MANY statues of people who were (assuming) involved in the church at one point or another. Am I to understand that catholics pray TO these people? Because, to my knowledge, the bible states that when you die, you're dead until the time of judgement. To me, praying to anything other than God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit is idolitry. I understand praying WITH people or asking people to pray for you is fine and dandy because you're praying TO the Trinity. But, people who are 6 feet under....that, to me, is a different matter. And heck, maybe I'm preaching to the choir :) In any event, answer are most welcome.

-- Jay Vowell (Archaicfx@yahoo.com), August 21, 2004

Answers

Response to Saints and Idolitry

You are misinformed on a couple of important points. First, the Bible most certainly does not state that anyone remains dead until the final judgement. The Bible states that we die, and then comes judgement (Heb 9:27). No indication of any delay. Jesus in speaking to the criminal who was crucified with Him said "this day you will be with me in Paradise". "This day" - not "someday", not "at the final judgement". Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the mountaintop. They were both alive and well, not in the grave. The Christian Church has taught for 2,000 years that we are judged at the moment of death, and go on to eternal punishment or eternal reward. Our bodies may remain dead until the final judgement when they will be raised and reunited with our spirits. But our spirits are never placed in a grave. They never die. They are immortal. Jesus said "everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die." (John 11:26) Since we will never die, it is impossible that we could "remain dead" until the final judgement.

The second area where you are off the mark is your definition of idolatry. The Catholic Church specifically forbids all forms of idolatry. A section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is devoted to it. Idolatry is the WORSHIP of anyone or anything other than the one true God. However, "prayer" is not a synonym for "worship". Prayer simply means communication. Actually it specifically means "to ask" or "to make a request". The Bible is full of passages where "pray" is used in this way, in conversations between two human beings. For example ...

"Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee" (Genesis 13:8)

"Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel" (Joshua 7:19)

"Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, where the seer's house is. (1 Samuel 9:18)

And many, many similar passages. So, "I pray thee" means "I ask you", or "I request of you", or "I implore you". But it certainly does not mean "I worship you". When we "pray" to the saints, we "ask" them or "request" of them that they intercede for us by offering their prayers on our behalf. And in response to our request they present prayers to God on our behalf, just as scripture says they do. (Rev 5:8) Of course we do not make such requests only of the saints in heaven. We also ask (request, pray) that the saints on earth will intercede for us. Don't you ask other Christians to pray for you? Don't you pray for them? Well so do we. And surely those saints who now stand before the throne of God are in a better position to pray for us than those who are still sinners on earth. The Bible says they are all alive, so why would we not pray/ask/request that they all pray to God for us? But of course we do not worship people who are living on earth OR people who are living in heaven. That would be idolatry!

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 21, 2004.


Question: With the exception of the people in the bible who were taken up and appeard on this earthly plane as per the bible; How do we KNOW if a saint is in Heaven or not?

-- Jay Vowell (Archaicfx@yahoo.com), August 21, 2004.

By the infallible declaration of the Church - the same way we know which writings constitute the inspired Word of God.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 21, 2004.

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