Calvinism and its ongoing misrepresentations

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Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

I told this to rod on another thread. It is quite obvious most of you have not read anything dealing with Calvinism, other than RC/COC/Arminian anti-Calvinist sources, such as the one Kevin has provided us with. If you are really interested in understand in learning and understanding the Doctrines of Grace, I encourage you to go to this website: www.monergism.com

Articles on the Doctrines of Grace:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html

Articles I chose that speak of certain points of TULIP.

Total Depravity:

by R.C Sproul

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul/depravity.html

Unconditional Election

by John Piper

http://www.desiringgod.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/03/113003.html

Particular Redemption ("Limited Atonment")

by Charles Spurgeon

http://solagratia.org/spurgeonatone.html

Irresistable Grace

by John Calvin

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/calvin_conversion.html

Perseverance of the Saints ("OSAS, Eternal Security")

by Jonathan Edwards

http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/works2/htm/xi.vii.htm#xi.vii

There is a good online book by Loraine Boettner called _The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination_

http://www.ccel.org/b/boettner/predest/default.htm

If you don't have time because you are "working", here is your Calvinism 101 class ;)

http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=72&print=1

[Note: If you highlight and copy the link, you might have to delete some extra spaces that appear for no reason]

Asked by David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com) on September 08, 2004.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 18, 2004

Answers

...I don't understand you, David. I was probably the first person to call you a "Calvinist" in this forum. You said that you were not a Calvinist. What is this we see? You are posting Calvin's doctrines and theologies, but do you deny that you are a Calvinist?

For Max:

I'm not using the term "Calvinist" as a bad word. I'm merely attaching labels where labels fit. It makes it easier to navigate.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


...So, God created man, a totally depraved man was created by God? God created a flawed being who is incapable of seeking God, obeying God, seperating sin from sanctity? I've read that God created man and that was good.

How should I view God?

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


In our modernistic minds and society, humanism tends to become a dirty deal when it ignores or rejects God. But, when Jesus walked the earth, His message involved humanism in its purer form. We are to treat others as we would have others treat us. That is an offering that we may choose or ignore. Why would Jesus give us such an option if we are totally depraved and unable to make such a choice on our own? It sounds like we still have a free will.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


rod,

You said, "I don't understand you, David. I was probably the first person to call you a "Calvinist" in this forum. You said that you were not a Calvinist."

Yes, you were one of the first people to expose me for what I am ;) Which is weird, I never spoke of "the elect" or anything of the sort. And I even mentioned I was in the Assemblies of God, which is sort of Arminian. How rod can call someone who attended the Assemblies of God a Calvinist is truly a mystery. I am a Christian, who happens to believe in the Reformed doctrines of Grace that are commonly known as Calvinism.

You said, "What is this we see? You are posting Calvin's doctrines and theologies, but do you deny that you are a Calvinist?"

Read above :)

You said, "So, God created man, a totally depraved man was created by God? God created a flawed being who is incapable of seeking God, obeying God, seperating sin from sanctity? I've read that God created man and that was good."

God created Adam righteous. Adam chose to sin.

You said, "Why would Jesus give us such an option if we are totally depraved and unable to make such a choice on our own? It sounds like we still have a free will."

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." - Jesus

Hmm....Do I believe rod, or do I believe Jesus?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 18, 2004.


David,

Are you a Calvinist? Do you accept Christ like a Calvinist accepts Christ?

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.



"Adam chose to sin. " Adam was tricked by Eve. That happens today, still. "I am a Christian, who happens to believe in the Reformed doctrines of Grace that are commonly known as Calvinism. " Ok. In that case, I am a Christian, who happens to believe in the Catholic catechism of Apostolic truth given by Jesus in His One and only True Church known as the Holy Catholic Church. But, I guess I'm not a Catholic even if you do call me one, David. I'm not even confindent that the Catholic Church would recognize me from Adam (I can't partake of the Holy Eucharist). Nevertheless, as I walking behind you, I see the tracks left in the sand--"Calvinist". My tracks--"Catholic". But, I think my faith goes further back than today's Catholicism and Calvinism (for sure). I think I'm a Traditionalist. Things begin to break apart just prior to 1533 in the history of Christianity. That's right about the time the Reformation begins to fiddle with doctrine and theology. It would be nice to go to a church that is frozen in time. Oh, let's say a church a few hours after the Day of Pentecost. Gosh! that sounds just like a Pentecostal church I used to help with. But, I think they forgot specifics about the charisms

And then there is Elpidio.

Elpidio. You do have those Gnostic overtones in your theology. Some Gnosticism may still exist in this world. For me, I can't surrender to the idea that Christ is just a sounding board for God. There are multitude of sounding boards throught history. Well, there's more, but I don't want to go into it today.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


There are also a multitude of other computer keyboards throughout this school. (I push the keys, but they don't seem to work. Or, is it me?????)

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


Well , Rod,

I accept the Gospel of Thomas as scripture which at one time in the first centuries was used by some Gnostic sects. Though I don't believe Thomas is 100% Gnostic. 75% of its sayings are found in Matthew (78 sayings), Luke (close to 70) , they overlap, this matches Bible scholars belief in a Gospel called Q . About 30 are in Mark. 2 are in John.

To me John and I John are more Gnostic than Thomas. In John Jesus doesn't touch th blind, the sick,....as he does in Mark, where he spits and makes mud to put in people's eyes, touches lepers,....Lepers are ignored in John. In John, Jesus can enter through closed doors. This is a docetic Gonstic idea which claimed that Jesus only appeared to be seen. He had no flesh.

Thomas has the saying where Jesus mother and brothers look for him thinking he is going insane, and in Mark. Jhon skips it.

To me, drop John and Revelation, and 90 % of Trinitarian views die overnight. Most of Trinitarians views are based in those 2 books.The only passages left to contend with would be Mathew 28, Phillipians 2, and 1 Timothy 3. Since we know for a fact Matthew is Jewish and Paul wasn't ever accused of blasphemy against Yahweh, then there is no Trinity.

Paul could be classified as a semi-calvinist today, Rod. He was the champion of Grace. Be believe that humans come short of God's puropose, that we sin. But unlike modern Calvinists, he believe salvation was open for everyone. That is why he believed the Gentiles needed to hear the Gospel. These included even homesexuals and lebians as mentioned in Romans chs. 1 and 2.

So my views are Pauline when it comes to God Yahweh's grace, because 99.9999% sin. But I don't believe we are born in sin. I don't believe God would make a bad copy of himself.

Your friend

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


I tend to believe that man is generally well behaved. It wasn't until he was tempted in the Garden that he fell. Had he been left alone, Adam and Eve would have been just fine. Had all of us been left alone in Paradise, we would all been ok. But, we have no Paradise and Evil roams the world. We are tempted every day. I believe that infants are saved. I don't know for sure if they have sin. Scriptures indicate that no one is without sin. But, infants are not aware of sin--they are ignorant--that their Salvation should be a given.

The Ebionites reject St. Paul, yes?

Yes, we've had this discussion before regarding Gnostic tones in John. I do see Gnosticism. Maybe I should not have read the "other gospels" cuz, now, I can see it in many places. "Those who have eyes can see".

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


"The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

(John 3:16, Matthew 22:14, Acts 17:29-31, Matthew 23:37-39, John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, John 1:12-13, John 3:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-10) "

How is that possible--freely and willingly--went one must first be elected by God?

How do we know who is not "elected"?

Does if matter if the evangelist goes to those non-elected people?

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.



Yes, Rod, the Ebionites: James, Peter, ... rejected most of what Paul preached. That is why they forced Paul to act as a practicing Jew when he came to Jerusalem. Unfortunately, he was identified by Asiatic Jews who almost killed him. Once Paul was in prison, they never came to visit him except for John Mark.

Luke, Titus (is he the same as Timothy ) Aristarchus, Apollos...were believers in Grace. They were his feelloworkers.

Even modern Ebionites reject Paul: Ebionites, Assemblies of Yahweh,...

I accept what is Good from Paul. Some things from Paul I reject: Paul believed in slavery, I don't. Paul believed in submission to the state, I don't. Paul believed that women no no role in teaching, I do.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


I've been afraid to reject anything written. But, I do have some issues with some of St. Paul's recommendations.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


I've been afraid to reject anything written. But, I do have some issues with some of St. Paul's recommendations.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


Here's the rest from above, --- I hit "submit" when I was going for my spell check. I was always the last picked in Gym class because I'm a bit of a clutz. I would have thrown this post in the opponents basket.

I think we all have to remember that Paul and all of the other Gospel writers were products of their time and circumstance. Paul as a Roman citizen could not have received the word without it coming through his Hellenized orientation. He was a human first, before becoming an instrument of the word. As were Peter and James who could not possibly from their entirely Gallileean prospective come to exactly the same conclusions as Paul. This battle has continued til today. I know many see no arguments within the scriptures. I do. But I stay away from arguing them as I'm not qualified.

Who was wrong? Or does God continually and methodically reveal the truth through many, for lack of better words "spickets."

I've read somewhere that Galilee was in closer contact with both Hellenizing and Asianizing influences than was Jerusalem itself.

The Persian influence of Zarathustra/Zoroaster with its early monotheistic influences along with life after death, not to mention the "Dark" idea of the Devil ran through this part of the world. It introduced ideas that were not exactly indigionous to that small Judian area until the 5th to 2nd century BC. The priestly sect/Saddusees did not believe in life after death. That came from Greek and Persian influences. Jesus ideas were quite revolutionary in the early first century.

God has been at work for ages. Revealing and helping us piece things together.

I'll Let the Catholic Church work things out for me, but my other eyes see other obvious possibilities.

Why can't we look at all of these influences as being valid without excluding what isn't "written."

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), September 18, 2004.


>I'm not using the term "Calvinist" as a bad word. I'm merely attaching labels where labels fit. It makes it easier to navigate.<

Using a term to "categorize" things in your mind is fine... as long as it meets all the conditions. Using a term as a sort of blanket condemnation isn't smart, especially if what you're condemning doesn't meet all the conditions of the term you're using. You may as well just re-write the dictionary in that case.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.



I think I shall re-write the dictionary, Max. Words change with time. And, who the hey is condemning anyone? BTW, this forum was calling me a "Catholic" way before I made the same acceptance. (Well, some don't accept my convictions.)Even if, I don't meet all of the conditions to my convictions. Hey, neither do a 100% of those other believers, yet they seem comfortable using their labels. Who is 100% what the say they are?

I have an idea. Max should be a moderator cuz I'm not very "smart". There you go again, Max.

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.,com), September 18, 2004.


Which one should I use?

pseudo-Calvinist

Calvinist-wannabe

semi-Calvinist

modern-Calvinist

post-Calvinist

neo-Calvinist

reform-Calvinist

traditional-Calvinist

orthodox-Calvinist

situational-Calvinist

depraved-Calvinist

totally depraved-Calvinist

predetermined-Calvinist

non-determined-Calvinist

pre-elect-Calvinist

elect-Calvinist

post-elect-Calvinist

(I'll add more later.)

As for me?

How about quasi-Catholic?

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


I think for depraved Calvinist Rod you should use people born sinners Calvinist. The word depraved has such bad connotations today that it includes people who molest children, practice all types of sexual acts,...

Now, what parts of Paul's beliefs you accept and reject.

Besides, not only John has gnostic ideas, but Revelation too. According to Revelation (Apocalypse), only men that are virgens, a Gnostic tenet, will reign with the lamb. This corresponds to Thomas saying 114 where Jesus says that he is going to make Mary(Magdalene) a male.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


Jim Furst makes two points of historical importance for Christians .These, Jim, you mentioned:

I've read somewhere that Galilee was in closer contact with both Hellenizing and Asianizing influences than was Jerusalem itself.

The Persian influence of Zarathustra/Zoroaster with its early monotheistic influences along with life after death, not to mention the "Dark" idea of the Devil ran through this part of the world

I think there is a city named Sephoris, very close to Jesus town of Nazaret. It was a Greco-Roman city. Jesus made had made instruments, or any other types of works for them. There is something about Jesus' way of teaching which attracted Greek speakers as attested by John and Acts, besides the letters of Paul. Did Jesus learned some Greek? Maybe. He may habe been opened to other people's cultures, but he believed his mission was to show Israel a true way of worship. That is why 12 disciples are chosen, to stand for the 12 tribes of Israel. Even Jesus says they will sit in 12 thrones judging the Israelites.

The Persian dualitic religion of Good and evil truly permeated Jesus way of dealing with diseases and ilnesses, not only of the body, but of the mind too. He attributed them to demons.

These days we know most of them are caused by viruses and bacteria.

At one time I debated in a thread called God and Satan with John Gecick that even in the Old Testament, God was called Satan by David. The word did not have the later connotation now we make of the Evil one.

Evangelical and Pentecostal Protestantism have relied on this belief to control their members today just like Catholics did with the devil, original sin, absolution of sins,.... before.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


Elpidio: Besides, not only John has gnostic ideas, but Revelation too. According to Revelation (Apocalypse), only men that are virgens, a Gnostic tenet, will reign with the lamb. This corresponds to Thomas saying 114 where Jesus says that he is going to make Mary(Magdalene) a male.

rod: Gnostic thinking asserted the belief that all humans would become men before the end was to occur. Literally, this would bring woman up in the word, as they changed into men. I wonder if we are already seeing Gnostic prophecy in today's American lifestyle in the secular society. "Men" meaning those in power; "Women" meaning those who are considered inferior (Gnostic view). But, today, women are just as powerful in society as men, out numbered though.

What is puzzling is the fact that women played a higher role in the office of the Gnostic "church". Women were priestesses and regarded to be holy, until somebody put a stop to all that nonsense.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


God has been at work for ages. Revealing and helping us piece things together.

I think this is an important point you make here Jim. I see God as working not only throughout time, but also in other cultures and theologies. I think he has been preparing the world for the Gospel since the Fall of Adam, even in pagan cultures by revealing some truths to them. That is why I am not surprised by any similarities someone might make between Christianity and other religions. Truth is truth no matter where you might here it. That is, not to say that every religion is just as good as the next, or that each contains has THE truth, but I can see pieces of the truth in other religions and theologies.

I think this helps me understand what Paul was saying in Romans 2:1- 16. Though pagans may not have the whole truth, God can still reveal some truths to them. I see this in the almost universal laws in civilization against murder and stealing. Just some thoughts.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 18, 2004.


Don't post until I finish. 5 posts in this thread.

-- Assistant Moderator (egonval@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.

>I think I shall re-write the dictionary, Max. Words change with time.<



-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


>Which one should I use? pseudo-Calvinist

Calvinist-wannabe

semi-Calvinist

modern-Calvinist<

Use whichever term best fits the specific or general category you are speaking of. Some use the word Calvinism as an insult or an "instant heretic" label. If you're going to insult or use the term as an "instant heretic" label, be sure what you're categorizing actually fits the category.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Please use the word "dumb" correctly, Max. :) Did you mean that you were left speechless?

Anyway.

If God open the heart, does He also close it?

Galatians 6

9 (1) Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we (2) do not grow weary.
10 So then, (3) while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the (4) household of (5) the faith.

NASB.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


I think we are supposed to do good works.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Ah!"Use whichever term best fits ...". Never fear. I will call a heretic a "heretic". I don't mince words with heretics and Satan worshippers. But, generally, if he walks and talks like a duck, I'll call him a "duck". There are many ducks of different colors and patterns, but they still em duks 2 mee. I won't call a swan a "duck" or a goose a "duck". Same goes for Christians. If they follow Christ, them R Christians.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Women shall become me (Gnosticism).

Why is it that I will open the door for a women, but when I'm trying to enter a room, while loaded down with books and instruments, those women walk right by without opening the door? Why? Those Gnostics were wrong, that's why. Some women! I don't think it is heliocentric thinking; it is gynocentric behaviors.

Anyway.

It is an egocentric world at best, at least. The universe revolves around the individual. Think about it.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


>Please use the word "dumb" correctly, Max. :) Did you mean that you were left speechless?<

You're so cute, Rod. ;)

>If God open the heart, does He also close it?<

Man gets the credit for closing his own heart.

>I think we are supposed to do good works.<

Yep, because we are in spiritual unity with God by faith, Christ living in us, the Spirit of God showing His presence through us in the works we do, God's Will which is written in our hearts being manifested in the physical world.

We don't do good deeds to be saved. Good deeds are a natural fruit of being united with God - His Spirit manifesting through our lives.

We are saved for good works - amazing works of the Spirit of Christ.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


>Never fear. I will call a heretic a "heretic"<

OK.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


>Why is it that I will open the door for a women, but when I'm trying to enter a room, while loaded down with books and instruments, those women walk right by without opening the door?<

Maybe they were scared of the instruments you were carrying? ;) jk

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Not only in Gonostic groups did women have a prominent role, Rod, but also among Paul's Greek churches like Corinth. That is why Paul says to women to listen to men in Ch. 11, where he also discusses the eucharist(last supper=Passover).

Also women were prominent in Bishop Paul of samosata's Church in Antioch, the first Christian Church. Paul was the first known Christian Unitarian. As bishop and Patriarch, Paul made many enemies among the trinitarians who, when Paul's protector lost the kigdom, Paul was banished. This happened about 80 years before Nicea.

Later bishops of Antioch were Arian or Semi-Arian.Until the 5th - 6thcentury they became monophosites.

If a bishop was a unitarian like me, Rod, long back from the oldest Christian Church (By the way, Jerusalem and Caesarea were Ebionite centers), then, our Church was originally Unitarian since from Antioch the Apostle Paul and Barnabas went preaching to the Greeks and Romans.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


"We don't do good deeds to be saved. Good deeds are a natural fruit of being united with God - His Spirit manifesting through our lives. "--Max.

This may be true of a Christian, but I gather that this "good deeds" is a work of those who are not Christian.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


The Apostle Paul was Unitarian?? Maybe you meant a different Paul.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.

Oh, I read that too fast. Nevermind!

Except I think Paul of Samosata taught Modalism - akin to present day Oneness.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


>Bishop Paul of samosata's Church in Antioch, the first Christian Church. Paul was the first known Christian Unitarian.<

Paul was Modalist, not Unitarian. There's a difference.

Also, Antioch was the first Christian Church? You'd think that Jerusalem was the first, since that is where it all started.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Paul the Apostle and Paul of Samosata were Unitarians, Max.

If the apostle Paul had been a Trinitarian he would be kicked out of the Synagogue accused of heresy. He was accused of transgressing their laws on circumcision. He was never accused of heresy, Max.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Since this thread turned into the topic about children and infants having faith, I thought I'd add this personal testimony.

My girlfriend has a 2-year-old daughter whose dad wants nothing to do with her since before she was born. I've sort of taken the place of dad in this little girl's life. Hopefully someday I will adopt her.

Lemme just cut to the meat... I rarely teach this girl about Jesus and there is only one children's book in the house about God. I've never felt the need since she's not truly my child. Her mother is not a church goer. We've both tested out several local churches together, but that's about it. Either I disagree with the highly casual "fun" atmosphere that prevails in today's churches or I find something that I highly disagree with in doctrine. I like to have fun as much as the next person, but I'm pretty sure God doesn't like His house of prayer turned into a rock and roll circus.

Last Sunday, I traveled 50 miles to attend an Eastern Orthodox Church for the first time in my life. I brought this little girl and her mom. I'll just say, in a strange way, it felt familiar... but also very foreign coming from a Lutheran and Branhamite background.

Last night I asked God to give me a sign if this was the Church He wanted me to continue with, since currently I have no stable church home. I confessed signs are for blind people and that I am totally blind. I don't know which group of Christians on earth is His True Body and I refuse to believe that there is no One True Visible Body on earth. I also absolutely reject Rome's claim to be the Church over all Churches... especially after changing the Creed without calling a council, baseless views of Mary, indulgences, historical atrocities, etc. etc.

This morning, I was getting my girlfriend's daughter ready for school. I asked her if she liked singing in Church the other day. (she's 2 years old) She said "yeah." Mostly she laid under the pew and sometimes she would hum along with the Priest and chanters and look at the icons on the walls.

I asked, "Did you see the pictures in the church?" Immediately, this little girl declared, "Yeah, pictures of Jesus."

I was dumbfounded. I asked her again, "Pictures of what?"

She said, "Jesus"

I asked, "Jesus?"

She nodded her head.

If I wasn't intimately familiar with the upbringing of this little 2- year-old girl, I would just chalk this up to a girl who has seen lots of pictures of Jesus in her life and that she's been taught about Jesus frequently. Not so with this girl. There is only one children's book in the house and it barely mentions Jesus. Also, we never explained to her what going to Church is about. I'm a very skeptical person, but I was forced to admit this to be a sign of some sort. My girlfriend thought I was funny that I'd even try to doubt something so obviously a sign from God. What more could I ask for as a sign? Light from heaven? The humble confession of a little child seems more in line with the character of God it seems.

One day about a year ago, this little girl got out of her bed and walked into her mom's room and woke her up and told her mom that "everything is ok, Jesus would take care of her." That's another place where this child proved to have spiritual depth from a very early age.

Now, for those people who wish to discount that infants and little children can have faith in God, I offer this personal witness. I've never been more humbled in my life. I trembled, wept, and laughed this afternoon like I've never experienced before. When I simply ponder Jesus now, I'm filled with the sense of love that I used to have when I was a child and barely knew any theology.

Remember, in the Bible, there were children in the temple making noise and singing when Jesus was there. The Jews were irate and told Jesus to get the kids out or shut them up. Jesus simply replied with scripture, telling the Jews, "Out of the mouth of babes I have ordained praise."

The faith of a child is pure. Unless you humble yourself and become like a little infant, having a humble simple faith, you cannot enter the kingdom of God, no matter how religious and "scriptural" you think you are.

I will likely post an update someday on whether I've truly found my home in Orthodoxy. It's very foreign to my Protestant background and "Western" theology. I agree with much, especially infant baptism, the Trinity, immersion baptism, the literal presence of Christ's Body and Blood in Communion, the mystic view of the Logos, the deification of man, the significance of icons, children in Communion, Liturgy, the equality of all Bishops, etc. There are some aspects that are difficult for me, though. I think most Western Christians are highly uneducated about Orthodoxy. In fact, it's said that if Luther would have been more educated about Orthodoxy, there likely would have never been a Reformation in the 1500's and thus such a confusing explosion of sects ever since all claiming to have the pure Apostolic Truth "based on the Bible."

Thanks for reading. Do not despise the young Christian in your midst. They are not 2nd-class members of God's Kingdom, no matter how young they are.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


>Paul the Apostle and Paul of Samosata were Unitarians, Max. <

Paul of Samosata was a Modalist. Look it up. Learn the difference between Unitarianism and Modalism.

>If the apostle Paul had been a Trinitarian he would be kicked out of the Synagogue accused of heresy.<

Paul certainly accepted the Personal Divinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is a clear undeniable fact from Scripture and the earliest Church Fathers.

>He was accused of transgressing their laws on circumcision. He was never accused of heresy, Max. <

Read Acts. Most of the angry Jews didn't like Paul's powerful preaching about the Cross and especially they rejected that the Messiah was the Son of God. Calling Jesus the Son of God was highly offensive and definitely was a heresy to the Jewish leaders. It had little to do with circumcision and mostly to do with jealousy and conviction by the Holy Spirit through the Message of the Cross and Resurrection of a man Who claimed to be the Son of God.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Elpidio,

Do you remember my discussions with you about the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Infants, just born? Growing children who can develop faith in God? There is a difference.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


What Max is experiencing is something I feel Rod someone coming from a Lutheran background can go through. It is easier for them to become Catholic Orthodox than Roman Catholics.

My guess is that Max will be an Orthodox in the next 5 years.

Max has just proved a point, that you showed , Rod, the difference between infants and growing children.

"Allow the young children to come to me, to such belongs the Kingdom of God".

I knew about Jesus before I was three. I knew about death too.

But it has taken me longer to understand God's salvation plan.

Before, I was taught that only Catholics (Roman) go to Heaven. Then that Catholics (Roman, Orthodox,....), Then I conjectured all Christians,...now I am not so sure.

When God Yahweh cares for an Atheist like Fidel castro, a Muslim like the late assassinated leader of the Northern Alliance, Masoud, a Jehovah's Witness like Prince, a Palestinian Arab, a Methodist President George Bush, Former President Clinton,..... Then I began to understand that God Yahweh sees the heart, not our religious affiliation, ....

Your friend,

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


>Infants, just born? Growing children who can develop faith in God? There is a difference.<

There's no explanation for this little 2-year-old's words except that she was speaking by the Holy Spirit. She has never been taught this stuff, so there's nothing to develop.

Let me give you another testimony that just happened tonight. I was reading a book about Orthodoxy I just got in the mail on the couch at my mom's. I don't normally read books unless it's in bed. This little girl walked up to me, pointed at the page I was reading and said, "I love Jesus."

This girl has not been taught this stuff. She may have heard me say it once many months ago, but this is the first time she's ever repeated it. The wildest thing about it was I was reading a page about the Orthodox belief that infants and children can have faith! I'm not making this up. I question it myself and even look for rational explanations.

When I took this girl home, I was sitting on her bed reading the same book about Orthodoxy. (I haven't devoured a book like this in a long time.) Her mom is sick, so I've been taking care of her. As she was waiting for a movie to rewind (she wanted to watch it again) I was reading about the place of the Virgin Mary in Orthodoxy. As I was reading, this girl said, "I watched my friend Mary paint a picture." I asked, "A picture of what?" She said under her pacifier, "Jesus."

Mary is the name of a friend of the family. She's never just said something like that about this friend. There was nothing to bring it on. She was just laying there waiting for the video to rewind while I was reading. Yes, she probably saw Mary paint a picture before, but there was no reason to say it then, at the very moment I was reading a chapter about the Virgin Mary.

I take these as signs. These aren't signs for anyone else because they can't really speak directly to the heart of anyone but me.

Infants can have faith. Jesus said they can. Why doubt the Lord? Even children who have barely if ever been exposed to Jesus in their life can say "I love Jesus" at the exact moment the Holy Spirit moves them as a witness to an adult about the Truth.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.


>My guess is that Max will be an Orthodox in the next 5 years.<

I think most would guess 5 years is way to big of a window if they've read my recent posts.

>Max has just proved a point, that you showed , Rod, the difference between infants and growing children.

"Allow the young children to come to me, to such belongs the Kingdom of God".<

If you read the Greek, Jesus was referring to infants. Jesus was specific and accepted even infants. The earliest church never held any other belief that infants are accepted into the Body by Baptism.

>I knew about Jesus before I was three. I knew about death too.<

You were likely taught. Consider, however, if you were never taught and you still knew about Him and spoke about Him. This is my current experience.

>But it has taken me longer to understand God's salvation plan.<

We are not saved by our understanding theology, thankfully. We are saved by our union with the Lord of Love, Jesus Christ.

>Before, I was taught that only Catholics (Roman) go to Heaven. Then that Catholics (Roman, Orthodox,....), Then I conjectured all Christians,...now I am not so sure.<

I believe that there are those who are "saved" in all sorts of denominations. The Spirit honors the Word wherever it is preached. However, there is only One Body with one set of beliefs on this earth, just as Christ had one set of beliefs. Doesn't the Lord grieve for His sheep that don't seek out the greenest pasture but instead settle for the minimum required to survive?

>When God Yahweh cares for an Atheist like Fidel castro, a Muslim like the late assassinated leader of the Northern Alliance, Masoud, a Jehovah's Witness like Prince, a Palestinian Arab, a Methodist President George Bush, Former President Clinton,..... Then I began to understand that God Yahweh sees the heart, not our religious affiliation, .... <

God sends down rain on the wicked and the righteous alike. Each has the responsibility to seek the Truth and never settle for less.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, One God, now and forever. Those who deny Jesus is God have not come to the Truth yet. Jesus is the Truth and the Truth is God.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.


Not necessarily, Max. What is truth? Even Pilate asked that!!!

Those who deny Jesus is God have not come to the Truth yet. Jesus is the Truth and the Truth is God.

But I tell you, Max, that according to the oldest creeds and beliefs of the early believers

Acts 10 (Peter) AD 47, Acts 13 ( (Paul and Barnabas) AD 49,Acts 15 (James) AD 50, I Corinthians 15 (Paul) AD 54, and Acts 8 (Phillip) about Isaiah 53 AD 33,

None ,state Jesus is God.

Thus, the Truth is that Jesus is not God Yahweh.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.


Elpidio,

I think the passages you quoted are inconclusive. If you look at John's gospel in light of those verses one can make the case that Jesus is God.

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Joh 10:31 The Jews then took up stones to stone him.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou, being a, man, makest thyself God.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 23, 2004.


Andy, 10:30 should state one and the same (mias kai homoios).] Since it doesn't stae the same, cannot conclude 100% they are the same.

In Hebrew one-ehad states a collective state of being the only one in existence.

For example, in Genesis when the man and the woman come together they become one. They are one, as a collective, yet, they are still man and woman. They are not the same.

In this way, Jesus and God Yahweh are one , as a collective, working for the salvation of humans, but they still are Jesus and God Yahweh.They are not the same.

I look like my father. My son looks like me. We even do and like similar things. Yet, we are 3 distinct people!!!!

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 23, 2004.


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