Are there sins a saved person cannot commit?

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A while back Faith said something to the effect that a saved person couldn't commit murder. I am curious, are there sins a saved person cannot commit? What are they? Do we love some free will when we are saved?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), October 03, 2004

Answers

James, in your last sentence, I think you meant:

Do we have some free will when we are saved?

Good question, James. I am interested in Faith's views on this topic. Faith, in your view, are Christians capable of sinning at all, and if so, to what degree?

I can share that as a Protestant, I was part of a church in the Arminian (Wesleyan) tradition, so I believed that if someone committed *major* sins (eg. murder, adultery, idol worship, etc.) then they were rejecting their salvation and needed to repent and get re-saved. I was never really clear, though, on the line between "major" sins that would mean rejecting God and "minor" sins, so I would often worry that I was no longer saved after any sin. Oh, the other thing I believed was that if someone refused to listen to God and continued to live in sin, even "minor" sins, then they would lose their salvation and have to get re-saved.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), October 03, 2004.


Emily,

You caught me not paying attention. I meant to say, do we lose some free will when we are saved?

Thanks for your answer.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), October 03, 2004.


I think you need to understand just what salvation is and what it is that we are saved from.

I have tried to explain this as best as I can--but it seems to go right over everyone's head. I just don't think you hear me because you are so programmed by Catholic doctrine or something.

But salvation has nothing to do with sins we commit. We don't need to be saved from all those sins...we need to be saved from the penalty incured in the Garden--which is death. Jesus paid that penalty for us. When we receive Him we are saved from that judgement. It is finished. This is a done deal.

Now as a saved Christian--you have been delivered not only from the penalty of that one ultimate sin that occured in the Garden that we all inherited--but we are saved from the power of that sin in our lives.

What is that one sin and what power did it have over us?

The sin was rejection of God. When we reject God--ultimately we live sinful lives--doing everything wrong. We cannot even help it. We are slaves to the lust of the flesh.

When we are delivered from that one sin of rejecting God--then we no longer reject him. As a saved Christian--we are better able to resist the lust of the flesh because we are controled by the Spirit instead of the flesh.

Yes we will make mistakes and sin still. Don't forget that we are saved sinners and we are not perfect. Only God is perfect.

But when we mess up and sin--our salvation is not at risk. Our standing with God may not be great--but as long as we have a repentant heart--we can work out this salvation that has been given to us because we received Christ.

If this salvation is not real--if there really hasn't been a rebirth-- then we apart from God and we not saved in the first place.

Someone who has truly experienced rebirth--will not purposefully sin in rebellion. It isn't that they lost their free will--it is just that they no longer will to do things apart from God.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 03, 2004.


Faith,

I will agree with you that faith in Jesus gives us access to the grace that we need to avoid sin. In addition, we have an increased desire for holyness and to avoid sin. My problem with your argument is that we still sin because we choose to. There still exists an attraction to sin. Let me illustrate with a couple of examples. I went to christianbook.com, an evangelical bookseller. I typed in pornography and I came up with 59 titles, I typed in bitterness and I came up with 109 titles. This suggests to me that these are sins that even people who are saved struggle with. From some of the stories I heard on my evangelical christian radio station, divorce is still a problem among people who are saved. This does not appear to be the accidental sin that you suggest, but of people deliberately choosing to sin.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), October 03, 2004.


If you are "saved" but mess up and so it turns out you weren't tuely saved in the first place, (just thought you were and it seemed true enough at the time) But then you realise or are truely granted Gods grace and are "really" saved "this second, third or maybe fourth time." How different is this from simply commiting a sin, (Serious or venial) recognising the disunity with God and then repenting.

Jimmy Swaggart is not someone I place a lot of faith in, but he certainly illustrates an individual who is "saved" and then hugely messes up and then gets "really saved." He has ended up being saved a lot of times. I'm not a fan of Swaggart, but I have no reason to to be absolutely sure he isn't saved. He may have gotten it right this time.

Isn't continueous "savings" and mess ups somewhat equivalent to "working out your salavation?"

Isn't there some common ground here? Our free will allows us to sin, and Gods grace allows us to return to Him. Hopefully we'll be in the "right place" when the time comes. We'll be there by the Grace of God as well as our free will to take advantage of that which is freely offered. In the 13th century, Meister Eckhart actually said metaphorically---"God is on sale at very reasonable prices." Sounds very "today." (He was not talking about indulgences, so please don't turn this comment around)

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 03, 2004.



Well then james.,

I question the validity of such a claimed salvation.

Think of the word salvation for minute. It means to be saved or delivered.

How is it that one could say they are saved or delivered--yet they practice pornography?

I think that this is what is meant by working out our salvation. Yes-- we still are lured into the sinful things of the flesh--but now we have the power to resist. If someone claims to have salvation--yet doesn't work it out--how real was it?

A truly saved person may struggle with these things and even backslide--but they should always be working their way out of it. And with their new power in Christ--it should be accomplished--whatever it is.

But if someone isn't even trying--and they are engaging in all sorts of sinful acts--then they do not know Jesus.

Rebirth brings about a changed life.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 03, 2004.


I still think we're basically using different words to say the same thing. A person cannot reject God by committing "grave" sin, die with an unrepentant heart, and gain eternal life with God.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 03, 2004.

There is no such thing as accidental sin. Sin is always a choice, and it always involves a rejection of the will of God - or more precisely a choice of our own will over God's will. Of course not every sin means total rejection of God. Only mortal (deadly) sins constitute complete rejection of God, as described in 1 John 5:16-17. But even deadly sins are forgivable through sincere repentence and confession. The ungodly life is a life of sin without repentence. The Christian life is a life of sin, repentence, and gradual healing. But no person alive on this earth is free of intentional sin. Which of course is why no person alive on this earth is "already saved". Which is why the bible tells us that we WILL be saved (notice the future tense) IF and only IF we remain faithful until the end of our earthly lives (Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13; Mark 13:13) Faithful to repentence whenever we sin, and faithful to forgiveness of others when they sin against us.

"If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him." (Luke 17:3-4)

Obviously the reference here to "your brother" means another Christian, not an ungodly person, for an ungodly person would not repent whenever he sinned. Jesus here acknowledges the fact that Christians do continue to sin, and that their sin is indeed intentional. Otherwise there would be no need for repentence and forgiveness.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 04, 2004.


I never said anything about accidental sin. Never heard of that, actually.

But there is a difference between someone who stumbles with regret-- and someone who willfully lives in disobedience.

The latter cannot possible be in a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 04, 2004.


Agreed. Someone who willfully lives in disobedience is not being faithful at all, let alone faithful until the end, so certainly will not be saved at the end - unless of course he repents before then. However, someone who is trying to live in obedience can still stumble in very serious ways, even murder. Such an act closes a person off from the saving relationship with Christ; but even then it is possible to reinstate that saving relationship through true repentence and confession, and to receive salvation if one continues in that relationship until the end, because remaining on the road to salvation is an ongoing, lifelong process. Every person has free will, and can reject that relationship at any time, thereby forfeiting salvation. If salvation is a free gift, freely accepted, then it can likewise be freely rejected, not only initially but at any time. Fortunately, because of the great mersy and love of God, we can come back to Him even after we reject Him, for He never rejects us.

Paul clearly realized that he was not yet saved, and that more was required of him if he hoped to be saved ...

"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. (1 Corinthians 9:24-27)

"Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus". (Philippians 3:12-14)

"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 04, 2004.



I guess we just use the term salvation differently.

You seem to be using it as though [it] itself is eternal life.

I think salvation leads to eternal life. I think true salvation enables us to resist sinning...and I think that a person who is truly born-again cannot go on sinning as though he were still unsaved.

I can't imagine a true born-again Christian committing murder. I just think it is impossible. Unless of course--if there is a mental illness present. I actually think that anyone who could murder--has to be ill or something.

I guess it boils down to the same disagreement we have about what James says. I think that when James says your faith ids dead--that he is saying that it was never real.

A person who claims to have been born-again., yet he sins away--is actually not really born-again. He does not exhibit that new life.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 04, 2004.


Faith:"...has to be ill or something. "

Does this mean that only healthy people have a better chance at Salvation than "ill or something" people?

Healthy people don't sin? ...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 04, 2004.


Please remember what salvation is. It is the deliverence from the penalty we incured from Adam and Eve in the Garden--that judgement-- remember it?

Salvation is the deliverence from that penalty and the deliverence from the power of subsequent sin that stems from that original sin.

We are saved from those things and can now live our lives for God and follow Christ. God will judge sick people and ill people accordingly.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 04, 2004.


You sound "immaculate". Are you?

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 04, 2004.


rod--

Don't waste my time.

Your only purpose is to exasperate. If you can't post quality posts that you think out--then take a break! Buy a Bible--or something.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 04, 2004.



Faith,

Yes, we are using "salvation" differently. I use it to mean eternal life. By my definition, "once saved always saved" is true. Once you enter heaven, there is no way you can lose your salvation. You use the term to mean "born again", an earthly experience. By that definition, "once saved always saved" is certainly not true, for many who find Christ and respond to Him, becoming born again and finding the road to salvation, walk that road for a while, but then abandon it never to return. Such individuals will never arrive at salvation because regardless of their initial sincerity, they have abandoned the road which leads to it. They were truly born again into a new life in Christ, but later rejected that new life. There are many reason why this might happen, as Jesus explains in Luke 8:12-15. This is why one must remain "born again", remain in relationship with Christ, and remain on the road to salvation until the end if one wishes to be saved.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 04, 2004.


You are assuming that everyone who says they know Jesus--really does.

But even Jesus shows us that there are many who will hear "I never knew you."

Salvation is based on our acceptance of Jesus Christ--and we are *predestined* to eternity as a result of our salvation--or acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior.

If it is real--we cannot be lost because we were predestined before the begining of time--by God--who in His foreknowledge already knows those who believe and those who don't.

Jesus says that those who the Father has given Him--cannot be snatched from Him. Not by anything--especially not by Satan.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 04, 2004.


Every person was predestined for eternal salvation. That's why human beings were created. But the gift of free will gives us the power to alter our destiny by rejecting that which God has predestined us for, and substituting a destiny of our own choosing. It is true that nothing can snatch us away from Him. The only way we can become separated from Him is by our own personal choice. We can't be snatched away but we can most certainly turn our backs and walk away, and many do. There is no basis for saying that such people never had a real relationship with Him. Just like a marriage that ends in divorce, a very real and good relationship can deteriorate over time and finally end.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 04, 2004.

Wrong Paul--

The Scriptures do not say that everyone is predestined for eternal salvation--only those who received Christ and are saved--are presdestined to eternal life.

God's election/predestinination is in agreement with something He foreknows about those whom He predestines to partake of these blessings-- such as eternal life.

We each are known by God from before the begining, and the Bible reveals that we are predestined to eternal life as adopted sons and daughters--based on what we did with Jesus.

This predestination is set.

If we walk away--it means we were decieved by the ways of the world and disbelief. That is the work of Satan--and God knows in advance, those of us who walked away--so they were never saved or predestined from the start--based on their choice to reject God and believe the lie.

Salvation is a gift given to those who believe. And eternal life is a blessing bestowed on those who have placed their faith in Christ.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 04, 2004.


Every person was predestined for eternal salvation.

That's true, Paul M.

If Judas Iscariot had confessed his sin, then he too could be saved. That's why human beings were created. He repented, that we know. But his salvation was up to God Yahweh.

-- Elpidipo Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 04, 2004.


Whoa Faith,

I never figured you for a Calvinist! The heresy of predestination in the Calvist sense is a very dangerous one. In means, in essence, that our lives on earth are completely meaningless. God has already decided who will be saved and who will not, so why bother doing anything at all? If there is nothing we can do to influence our salvation one way or the other, why go through this cruel, meaningless charade first? If God created some people for heaven and others for hell, why doesn't He just create them in heaven or in hell, instead of making them go through 50 or 80 years of gratuitous suffering first?

You make the same basic error that all fatalistic predestinationists make - equating foreknowledge with control. Because God "knows beforehand" who "will" be saved and who "won't", He must therefore create some individuals to be saved and others to be damned. However, terms like "beforehand" and "will" are time-related. God exists outside of time. He sees all of time eternally. Right now He sees the creation of the solar system; Adam and Eve in the garden; Jesus hanging on the cross; the twin towers burning; me being born; me dying; my great, great, great grandchildren graduating from high school; and the end of the physical universe. It isn't that God knows who "will" be saved "before it happens". Rather, there is no such thing as "before" or "after" for God. Yes, He knows who is saved and who is not, because he sees right now, each person's choices of free will, from Adam and Eve to the last human being who will ever live. He knows which of the predestined will accept their destiny and which will reject it, because He sees them doing it. In a kingdom, the king's son is predestined to become the next king; but that doesn't mean it will happen. He may turn against His father and become an enemy of the kingdom. It is the same with all whom God has created and predestined for eternal happiness. Some will accept the gift, others will reject it. God sees us do so, but He doesn't make it happen. The choices which result in our salvation or loss of salvation are completely ours and completely free.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 04, 2004.


Whoa yourself Paul...

God's foreknowledge is based on what we do...he simply knows in advance what we will do with his Son. This does not negate free- will., nor does it mean that God created some people for damnation.

God wants that none should perish. He sent His Son to die for the whole world--that whosoever will believe--could have eternal life.

But the bottom line is that not everyone will choose His Son. It is up to us--but the almighty God who knows the begining from the end-- has predestined those who chose His Son to eternal blessings.

This is what the Bible says. Some argue that if God knew in advance what we would do--then we have no choice but to do what he foreknows we would. But that just doesn't follow.

God is past present and future--and he can know everything--without taking away our free will. Whatever we do with Jesus, determines whether or not we are saved and will receive eternal life or not..

This is why we cannot loose our salvation if it is real. Because God already predestined us to our eternal blessing..., or not.

Biblical predestination/election is never unto salvation...it is always unto specific blessings that accompany salvation. Knowing who would believe the gospel is a valid reason for such blessings...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 04, 2004.


Faith,

Can a person truly believe they're saved but be wrong?

Jack

-- Jack Sammon (romanrite@aol.com), October 05, 2004.


Of course they can. Here is what jesus says about them...

Matt 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

It would seem to me that this sounds very much like the Catholic Church--though it could simply mean anyone who makes these such claims. However--the Catholic Church oozes with false prophets and miracles performed in the name of Christ....

Jesus will tell them "I never knew you" even though they seem to think they did everything in His name.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 05, 2004.


"but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Key point Faith. Only those who do the will of the Father are saved, so faith alone doesn't cut it.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), October 05, 2004.


Faith,

Thanks for answering my question. Then it isn't really possible to know with absolute certainty if one is saved or not. It seems that we can have a reasonable hope and assurance of salvation however the final judgement is not ours to say.

Jack

-- Jack Sammon (romanrite@aol.com), October 05, 2004.


No--

Actually Jack--

The Scriptures say that we can *know* that we are saved.

Just because others might be mistaken--doesn't mean that those who are truly saved can't know it.

1 John 5:13-15

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us-- whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 05, 2004.


"Just because others might be mistaken--doesn't mean that those who are truly saved can't know it."

A: Well, the obvious problem here is that every single person who thinks he is "saved" assumes that he is one of the "truly saved", and not one of the "others". Therefore, if there actually are some "others", they must be found among those who are convinced they are "truly saved". Therefore there is no reliable way for anyone who thinks he is "truly saved" to know with certainty whether he actually is "truly saved", or whether he is one of those "others" who are mistakenly convinced that they are "truly saved".

However, since Catholics know, as St. Paul did, that no-one is "truly saved" until they reach the end of their earthly lives, we don't spend our time working out such mental puzzles, but rather working out our salvation in fear and trembling, as the Word of God instructs.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 06, 2004.


Dear Faith,

First let me explain that I am not intentionally trying to be contentious. I'm trying to sort out what appears to be a dichotomy.

1. A person can truly know if he is saved.

2. A person can truly believe he is saved but be wrong.

My question is obvious. How can a person distinguish himself from those who really believe they're saved but are wrong from those who really believe they're saved and are right?

Jack

-- Jack (romanrite@aol.com), October 06, 2004.


He must rely on the Word of God for His guidance and truth.

The Scriptures themselves tell us how we can know. It has everything to do with receiving Christ as our Savior through the gospel. Hearing and believing.

When one experiences conversion--true rebirth., there is no mistaking it. Your life will change.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 06, 2004.


He must rely on the Word of God for His guidance and truth. The Scriptures themselves tell us how we can know. It has everything to do with receiving Christ as our Savior through the gospel. Hearing and believing.

When one experiences conversion--true rebirth., there is no mistaking it. Your life will change.

Faith,

If, as you say, a person can truly believe he is saved but be wrong, how can you be so sure that you're not among those who think they are but they aren't? Do you see what I'm driving at?

Which verses in Scripture tell us how we will know?

-- Jack Sammon (romanrite@aol.com), October 06, 2004.


I understand what you are saying--

Though as a born-again Christian--I don't think your concern is valid.

You can't help but know when you have been renewed, and are a new creation in Christ.

And even though there are those who claim the name of Christ--they actually don't belong to Him. This is something that a litmus test can reveal.

The test is in the Scriptures. Did you fall on your face in repentance? Did you see Jesus through His Word. Did you hear Him speak to your heart? Did you confess with your lips that He is Lord over your life? Did you commit your life to Him? Did you receive Him and have you since--received the Holy Spirit? Is Scripture easy for you? Did you stop drinking, cursing., engaging in pre-marital sex? Do you deny evolution and believe creation is true? I mean--the list can go on. It depends on what your sins were. Do you bear fruit? Do you hunger for the Word of God all the time? Did you become a prayer warrior? Do you feed the hungry--even when you'll get no recognition? Do you give--even in secret--out of a joyful heart? What is your motive., your focus.., your reason for living now?

Jesus was pointing out in his verse about how there will be those who claimed the name of Christ--performing all sorts of miracles and what not--but they didn't know Jesus. This puts a big question to their motives behind what they did. Did they feed the hungry when it would not benefit them? Do they pray in secret or in the town square for all to see how godly they are?

It's a true heart issue. You should be able to tell the condition of your heart by reading the Scriptures--they reveal to us exactly where we stand.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 06, 2004.


Faith said: When one experiences conversion--true rebirth., there is no mistaking it. Your life will change.

This is a good point, in the sense that knowing Christ changes us into more Christ-like people. I believe it's more of a process over time in which God works on us. Interestingly in my life, the biggest change in my outlook and increase in my commitment to Christ has occurred during the process of my conversion to Catholicism. So Faith, according to your definition, that must mean that I am truly saved, since my life is changed for the better.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), October 06, 2004.


I never said that a Catholic person cannot be saved. I have friends who were born-again by the washing of the Word of God--even while in that Church. Though the eventual pattern is that they, at some point, leave that Church in their wake. No offense to you Emily. But someone who begins to understand the Scriptures, out of necessity--must leave Catholicism behind.

Was your conversion into a religion, the Catholic Church in particular?

Ya see--being born-again has nothing to do with religion as far as I can tell. Being renewed has to do with receiving Christ--not a Church- -and being washed clean by His blood. You bury the old self--and you come up new and clean....forgiven. The Holy Spirit comes upon you and you change. Your life may get better--but more often than not--it gets worse. It's not easy. You begin to feel the same rejection that Jesus Christ felt. You may even find that you have been shunned by your own family. The more real that your faith is--and the more truth you speak, the more you will be hated by those who do not believe.

If no one seems to mind you or your new clothes--then something is very wrong., though I agree that in many ways--life does get better. You find internal peace...peace of the soul. You have purpose in your life now. Things that seemed so troubling and worrisome--don't look that way anymore. You have your new hope in Christ--and there is nothing in this world that could pull me away : )

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 06, 2004.


"But someone who begins to understand the Scriptures, out of necessity--must leave Catholicism behind".

LOL that's rich. Someone who begins to "understand" the Scriptures through personal interpretation, even though their beliefs conflict left and right with others who similarly "understand" the Scriptures through persobnal interpretation, of necessity must leave the Church which defined and compiled the Scriptures, the only Church authorized by God to interpret and teach them. Yeah right. Every week, another new denomination "understanding" the Scriptures.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 06, 2004.


Conflict?

I'm sorry Paul--but the gospel message is very simple--very to the point.

I don't care much about differeing perspectives on other things revealed in the Bible.

But I am talking about the gospel message. Where that is concerned-- we are all in agreement--every true Christ.

We understand that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. We understand and believe Jesus when He says he will return for us--and that He will raise us in the same way that He was raised.

We believe that he died for our sin--so that we can live--and that we are forgiven the debt we owe when we accept Him as our Savior.

Show me where all the Protestant denominations differ on this one core belief??? This is all we need unto salvation--the truth of the gospel.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 06, 2004.


oops--make that

"But I am talking about the gospel message. Where that is concerned-- we are all in agreement--every true Christian. "

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 06, 2004.


Faith,

Is it possible that someone can experience all that you mentioned when they became "saved" yet be wrong?

I'm thinking of a particular case that happened a number of years ago in the town where I was living. A well respected minister was the pastor of a local, and affluent "Bible Church." I won't mention the name of this church or the town out of repect for the man and his family.

Anyway, I knew this man fairly well. He was as sincere a Christian as you would meet. He would literally give someone the clothes from his back and the food from his own table. He was very humble and devout. He preached the Gospel as he understood it, he brought many souls to Christ, he operated a day-care and a school, and raised a wonderful family of his own.

After his kids were raised, it turned out that he fell into an adulterous affair with a new person in the congregation. I personally think he was intentionally seduced. Anyway, after awhile it turned out that the lady's husband became aware of the affair and extorted money from the pastor to buy his silence. The pastor gave him money that belonged to a church trust-fund because he didn't have any real money of his own. This went on for almost three years when an audit brought the whole mess to the light of day. The poor guy shot himself.

Now here's a poor soul who obviously assumed he was saved for many years but at the end of his life he got caught up in adultery, theft and suicide.

Do you suppose he was saved or was he possibly mistaken about his salvation?

Thanks,

Jack

-- Jack Sammon (romanrite@aol.com), October 07, 2004.


It sounds to me like he was talking the talk--but he wasn't walking the walk.

The real question is, "What was the condition of his heart?" Was he remorseful..or not? He obviously tried to cover up his actions and he used money not his...so not only was he an adulterer, but he was a thief.

Still--we are saved sinners. Was he repentant?

It doesn't sound like it to me.

Did he know Jesus?

It seems to me that he was more concerned with appearances and being caught by people like his wife and congregation--than he was concerned about making it right with God.

Then he kills himself?

Boy--it sure doesn't look good to me. But again--this is between him and Jesus., really.

Do you think this pastor was for real?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 07, 2004.


Hi Faith,

I'm sure this pastor was the real deal. But his horrible story sure as heck shows me that anyone can fall. What I can't see is the idea that if he were a "true" Christian and "really" saved in the first place that he would have somehow been incapable of these serious deeds. Nobody knows the future or what they might or might not do. I think he took control of his God-given free will and made some seriously bad decisions.

I do agree with you that if he were truly repentent that he could be saved; especially if his personaly culpability were in some way deminished

-- Jack Sammon (romanrite@aol.com), October 07, 2004.


What about all the religious teacher in Jesus day? They sure looked good on the surface., right? They were highly respected men. The religious Pharisees.., were particulary religious. Some were known as the bleeding Pharisees because they walked with the heads down, not looking up for fear that they might see a woman and have a sexual thought. Can you get more religious than that?

Yet--what did Jesus say about those religious leaders of His day?

Matt 25:25-28

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Perhaps your pastor friend was really a hypocrite?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 07, 2004.


Faith,

Pehaps, but I doubt it. There were too many good fruits for many, many years. This man was associated with this church as assistant pastor, then pastor for almost 30 years. He and I once discussed what he called "the eternal security of the believer" about 10 years prior to his misfortune. I'm sure he believed he was saved.

Jack

-- Jack Sammon (romanrite@aol.com), October 07, 2004.


"It seems to me that he was more concerned with appearances and being caught by people like his wife and congregation--than he was concerned about making it right with God. "--Faith.

Amazing! It is obvious that the man/pastor was tempted by a beautiful woman. The man gave in to the battle with lust. I believe that most men constantly must battle with lust at some degree. Obviously, he repented for his sins. He should not of killed himself, but I tend to look at his suicide as a form of repentance. Disgrace, embarrasment, guilt, regret, you name it, it was finalized by his suicide. May God have mercy on his soul. But, who are at fault?

Sure, the pastor is at fault for giving in to temptation. May we all have the power to resist. The attractive woman is at fault for providing the offer of sin. What about the wife? Did she contribute to the temptation in any way? Why would a man leave his wife for sexual interests in another woman?

It isn't as easy as it looks many times.

Was he saved? I don't know.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 07, 2004.


Amen, Rod, Amen.

suicide is a terrible thing for all concerned, and we cannot assume that, in taking such a course of action, the suicidant had any control over his destiny.

indeed, a great many Catholics may have fallen by the wayside over the centuries, but we never know the true state of the account.

that's God's business.

we can pray for their souls. we can pray for their families.

we can thank God that we are not in positions where it almost seems like a "sensible" option.

someone up the road from us took their life some time ago. the eldest boy ended up in a looney-bin. the wife, God bless her, has never been the same. the man, well, no-one would ever have guessed until he did it. then, i think we all saw some deep sense of guilt on his part, and an associated loneliness.

may God rest his soul.

an aside, i know, Rod, but you struck a chord.

the Church does teach that a Mortal sin is not a "strict liability" offense.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), October 07, 2004.


An unrepented mortal sin, once committed, IS a "strict liability" offense, and that liability is loss of eternal salvation. What the Church does teach, and what you probably intended to say, is that commission of an action that is gravely immoral from a purely objective standpoint may not constitute a mortal sin in all circumstances.

Suicide is not a form of repentence. In fact it is precisely the opposite - a form of despair.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 07, 2004.


Paul

In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

- Mortal sin is a sin of "grave matter"

- Mortal sin is committed with "full knowledge"

- Mortal sin is committed with "deliberate consent"

you know this. and i know that i am teaching granny to suck eggs.

however, to be "strict liability", as that term is commonly understood, the 2nd and 3rd conditions are irrelevant.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), October 07, 2004.


Of course, Paul. But, I'm looking at it from the suicidal man's point of view. His only answer was suicide. For him, it was his ultimate repentance. It is wrong to kill one's self, yes. It is probably damnable, too. There were alternatives to such a terminal solution. His loss of faith brought him to that final act. Forgiveness escaped his thoughts. His congregation would have forgiven him, I'm sure. And, he would have built a whole new life having learned from his errors. Instead, well........now, it is between him and God.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 07, 2004.


While it would be oh-so-very-nice if we who are being saved by the power of God through Christ Jesus could be "barred" from committing sin, I'm afraid that is simply not the case. While we are living on this earth we have "free-will," and we can, unfortunately "choose" evil, and fall into sin. King David was "a man after God's own heart," and yet he committed a heinous sin. Does God forgive heinous sins, even after we have committed our lives to Him . . . that's the good news . . . YES, YES, AND AGAIN I SAY YES! If the sinner returns to God with a "broken and contrite heart."

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), October 07, 2004.


This brings us back to the "Judas question." A very famous suicide.

Could he be saved? My vote means nothing, but its "yes."

There is only one final judge,--- and its none of us.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 07, 2004.


Jim--

If you knew your Scriptures--you wouldn't ask that question.

Jesus tells us the answer to this question when He prays for His disciples...

John 17:6-19

"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name- -the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

John 6:70-71

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 08, 2004.


OK Faith

Good answer, I accept it as you have pointed out. But could God if he wanted to,--- save Judas? Not saying he did because the answer is clear from the scripture you quoted. But could He?

I have never been an expert on scripture as is plain to see.

-- Jim (furst @flash.net), October 08, 2004.


God cannot defy His own Character or Will. For example, although we would believe that God can do anything--the thing is that it has to be according to His Will. For example--God could never lie. That would simply be against who He is. Therefore--what He has revealed in Scripture is how it will be.

If He had changed His mind or His Will--it would be evident in the Scriptures somewhere--because the Scriptures are a past, present and future glimpse into the heart of God.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 08, 2004.


Why would the Scriptures reveal anything that happens after a soul leaves the body? I mean something disclosed in full detail.

It is God's nature to offer forgiveness and Salvation.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 08, 2004.


rod..,

God says that Judas went to his destruction...he chose to reject jesus. It is that simple.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 08, 2004.


I'm not arguing whether Judas was condemned or not. It is about how a person can make such conclusions. It would be purely conjecture on the human perception.

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 08, 2004.


Judas was part of the plan. Was he duped into doing his evil act?

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 08, 2004.


rod--huh?

What would be purely conjecture on the human perception? What does that mean?

Are you saying that it is purely human conjecture that Judas was not saved--even though we have the Scriptures confirming this?

Was Judas duped? What does that mean? Deceived? Deceived by Satan? Obviously. But he still made his own choices. God--in His foreknowledge--used Judas'betrayal to further His plan--in the same way that he used Pharaoh's wickedness and hard heart to further His plan.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 08, 2004.


What would have happened if Judas never appeared? Well, another "Judas"/"Brute" would have taken his place. There was no way out. Prophecy is prophecy. Somebody had to be "Judas".

...................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 08, 2004.


" God--in His foreknowledge--used Judas'betrayal to further His plan--in the same way that he used Pharaoh's wickedness and hard heart to further His plan. "

That sounds like a conspiracy. It also sounds malevolent. How can evil further the plan of Salvation? That is contrary to the very nature of God. Mortal man had the chance to embrace their Saviour, but some did not. It was a free choice. Obviously, those who rejected Christ did not help promote the Salvation plan. Not if Christ died for all who believe in Him did Christ die on the cross. It is man's own destruction that enabled Judas to do what he did because some will reject the offer of Salvation. Judas was duped by his own agenda, his own will, and his own worldly interests. Judas is the personification of man's illlusions of autonomy.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 08, 2004.


Maybe this is a totally Catholic perspective. It surprises me . Really! I thought perhaps we were completely without the ability to see other peoples lives--- if they were not Catholic like me. Fortunately some Sisters of Notre Dame DeNamur straightened me out or perhaps wrecked my understanding. These were some very bright women. (actually I've been somewhat pompassly happy about the possibility that we can think for ourselves)

This is the only place I've seen it discussed. Are we as Catholics more forgiving only because we hope the same forgiveness will be offered to us. Or am I completely wrong.

If that's the case we're all guilty of free sinfullness. If Catholics seem to believe that salvation is not possible for others understanding God differently. Than thank God I'm one. Spoke to a young Jewish man this evening who if he is not saved I'm going with him!

What we've been talking about does not seem absurd. "Judas being saved" Are we "Catholics" the only ones pickled enough to think its even remotely possible.

Please Faith, believe me. You are the best Biblical scholar I know. I am sinsere.

I'd be interested in Paul M's input. But even if its not particularly what I think. Once again is it so far off to think that what we have as scripture, is not necessarilly how we should look at it.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 09, 2004.


rod--

Scripture reveals that God does indeed use us to work out His plan. He uses the good in believers to evangelize others--so why wouldn't he turn something bad, over to something good--like the salvation of many souls?

God knew in advance the evil, self-willed heart of Pharaoh.., and that is exactly why He raised Pharaoh up at the time that He did.

Exodus 9:13-17

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD , the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.

God did not cause Pharaoh to sin--nor has He ever done so with anyone, including Judas.

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

God knows our hearts and whether or not we will receive His Son. He has predestined those who believe--to eternal blessings. And He clearly uses all circumstances for the good of those who love Him.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 09, 2004.


"Raised up" does not mean to pull the strings of a puppet, in this case. I view it as "calling out", like the sheriff calling out the gunfighter for that final moment of truth. The Sheriff did not "raise" the gunfighter to be evil, but He will call him out to make things right.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.


AS far as Judas being saved?

He committed some very severe sins. On his final moments did Judas confess and, in so doing, revealed his faith in Christ? Do we know his thoughts during his final hour?

I can only hope that Judas saw redemption.

I'm not gonna damn him and brush my hands thinking it's an open and shut case.

............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.


Obviously rod--

You choose not to believe what God has revealed about the issue...

That is you priviledge as a free creature....something that predestination does not deny--unless you understand predestination wrongly as the Calvinists do.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 09, 2004.


Hi Rod

Faith did give a very good scripturally based argument for Judas' damnation/loss of salvation, in the "Can Satan be Saved?" thread.

It shut my mouth. But I still can't help feeling the same as you about this.

I wonder why. I don't think I was ever taught that Judas went anywhere other than Hell in Catholic school. But I've met other Catholics who can somehow see the possibility that Judas did not "necessarily" end up damned.

Is this some Catholic perspective that while not specifically taught, somehow leaves many of us open to this alternative idea? I mean as Faith pointed out, the scriptural basis for his damnation is pretty clear.

Why, or how is it that we seem to see possibilities that are not clearly based in scripture? (or even specifically taught by the Church) I do,--- but I don't know exactly why. It also seems right at an intuitive level.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 09, 2004.


What you are doing Jim.., and rod also--is you are leaning on your own understanding of things. You are using wishful thinking and emotion to decide that there must be a way that Judas was saved.

We'd all like to believe that--though I don't know why.

Do you have the same compassion for Hitler? Saddam? Osama Bin Laden?

The ultimate sin of all these men--is not what they each did--but *why* they did it.

And in all instances--the answer is the same. They reject Jesus Christ.

The Bible is clear that there is only one way to the Father--and that is through Him.

I think we should take it seriously...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 09, 2004.


You are way too funny, Faith. When I first learned about Judas and his evil betrayal of Christ, my first reaction was to fry the guy. Even today, I have this sense of wanting to get even with Judas. Suicide seems like the easy way out for Judas. Then, I have the teachings of forgiveness that the Church, Scriptures, and logic have taught me. I cannot condemn such people because it isn't my job to do that. Saddam would do well executed; that's my first gut reaction to him and his kind. But, we can't go on selfish human emotions; we'd be killing everybody, I guess. No, I think we must consider what Christ would do and did. He said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." I tend to believe that this also included Judas. Judas thought he was doing what had to be done in order to make good for his people. Obviously, Judas knew not what he was doing. When he did himself in, he finally may have realized his error and wrong deed.

For that reason, I feel that Judas' case is not as we "wish" it to be.

So, Faith don't go making up my mind for me. You have your view; I have mine. It isn't a "wishful" feeling.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.


"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

What in the world does that mean, Faith? Should we ignore some of Christ's words on the cross? I don't think so. What did Christ mean when He asked that from His Father in Heaven?

...................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.


Rod wrote, "I tend to believe that this also included Judas."

This does not agree with the truth of God's word Rod. God said in Acts 1:25, "to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

Judas was "not" saved. Jesus said in Matthew 26:24, "The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." Jesus also said that Judas was lost in John 17:12, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 09, 2004.


Forgiveness is found at the cross--for those who accept Jesus as their Savior....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 09, 2004.

"You are using wishful thinking and emotion to decide there must be a way that Judas was saved."

Actually not really Faith---I'm not looking for a way that Judas "must" be saved. You and Kevin have shown biblical support for your position and I'm really not crazy about Judas. I am wondering why I have this "intuitive" feeling that it is at least possible.

I can't really look at Judas in exactly the same way I look at Sadam or Hitler. In addition to the fact that both are chronologically closer in time to me, Judas was part of a divine plan that eventually lead to the possibility of our salvation.

I don't know or have as yet been given any revelation to explain the evil perpetrated on humanity by either of your other two examples.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 09, 2004.


Why is it that you guys don't answer to my points and instead ignore them??????

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

.................................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.


Rod

I get your point and see it as pretty powerful biblical support as well.

But you and I tend to be closer in our thinking about this subject than others here.

If its any consolation,--- I get it.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 09, 2004.


Yes, Jim. I should have addressed Faith and Kevin will deliberate specificity.

I do wonder if it is our Catholic teachings that underly our reasonings of Forgiveness and Salvation. I try not to use the catechism to answer; I'm trying to remain clear in my thoughts.

What will eventually happen around here will cause me to beome a "Sola Scriptura" kind of guy. Those are the demands Kevin and Faith put on us. I suppose that we can play the same cards always holding on to the realization that we can walk away from the table when things just don't jive.

Kevin and Faith will you at least consider my point and try to understand what Christ meant when he spoke his dying words?

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.


When will I learn how not to make mistakes??

"Yes, Jim. I should have addressed Faith and Kevin with deliberate specificity."

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.


I answered you rod...but I guess you don't make the connection.

Forgiveness is found at the cross--for those who accept Jesus as their Savior....

In other words rod--jesus' death brings that forgiveness that Jesus was asking the Father to give us. But the Scriptures are also clear about how that forgiveness of the debt we owe--how Jesus' sacrifice-- is applied to our name as "paid." We need to accept Jesus.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 10, 2004.


You still condemn Judas, yes?

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 11, 2004.


Judas rejected Jesus--and as the Scriptures reveal, he was condemned., not by me--but by his own choice.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 11, 2004.

Faith, you need to allow God to condemn Judas. It isn't up to us to do such a task.

As far as I can't see, Judas committed the sin of dispair in his realization of his sin and suicide.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 11, 2004.


Pardon me for sticking my nose into this discussion, but I don't see anywhere in scripture where it indicates what was in Judas' heart at the time of his death, one way or the other. Perhaps he was distraught at having his dreams shattered. He thought Christ was going to be the new "zealot-of-the-day." He had a plan and scheme, he had a DREAM, that was torn to shreds when Christ was crucified. He didn't stick around to see the risen savior. His suicidal act may have been just another one of Judas' supremely selfish acts. Who knows!

Scripture does tell us that Jesus said it would have been better "if that man had not been born." Of course, a person could take that several ways too, but it doesn't sound to awfully good for Judas in my estimation.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), October 11, 2004.


rod--

Ignore the clear Scripture verses if you want. But the Bible says he was doomed to destruction. This tells me that he never accepted Christ.

It doesn't matter how much dispair he was in if he never received Christ.

The Scriptures do not reveal that He was ever born-again. It appears that he was just afraid for his own skin...much like that criminal on the cross--the one that was not saved. I think Judas realized that he was in deep **** for what he'd done. He had nowhere to go now.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 11, 2004.


If you can use your emotionalism to fry the guy, we can also use logic to imagine or deduce a different view, Faith.

It was a common phrase by the early Christians--"...it is better that I had never been born...".

I haven't read the words that Judas is condemned to Hell. So, at the very least, Judas' condition may prove to be a moot issue.

Faith, you still haven't made a deliberate address to Christ' words-- "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." Who is Christ talking about and what is He asking for?

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 11, 2004.


rod--

You are hard to deal with. We are in teo very different places theologically.

I never used the word hell. That is your word., though I do think that when one is doomed to destruction--this is most likely what is meant.

You say you never read those words--but the Scripture was posted for you. So I don't know what to say... *shrug*

It is not I who has condemned Judas --as I keep trying to point out to you. God has revealed that--so your argument is with Him then.

And as for your claim that I did not address your question about what did Jesus mean when He said, "Father--forgive them, for they know not what they are doing".., I answered you.

The forgiveness is found right there at the cross.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 11, 2004.


"The forgiveness is found right there at the cross. "

Yes, of course, but you are not answering to the quotation.

What did Christ mean in that quotation I keep refering to ?

I guess that you don't really know what He meant.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 11, 2004.


You are hard to deal with.

-----Only with you, Faith.-----

We are in teo very different places theologically.

-----When did you first notice this?-----

I never used the word hell. That is your word., though I do think that when one is doomed to destruction--this is most likely what is meant.

-----Are you admitting that "hell" is what is meant or not? So, then, it isn't my word if you tend to agree with the damnation's destination.-----

You say you never read those words--but the Scripture was posted for you. So I don't know what to say... *shrug*

-----Obviously. The Scriptures have been interpreted to mean what you assert, Faith. Can you, at least, admit that you are interpreting what you have read?-----

It is not I who has condemned Judas --as I keep trying to point out to you. God has revealed that--so your argument is with Him then.

-----No, my argument is with you. I leave judgements up to God.-----

And as for your claim that I did not address your question about what did Jesus mean when He said, "Father--forgive them, for they know not what they are doing".., I answered you.

The forgiveness is found right there at the cross.

-----That answer does do a tap dance around the quotation. I'm asking you to give a direct answer to the quotation. Again, what did Christ mean? He very directly asked God, the Father, to forgive who of what?-----

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 11, 2004.


Rod,

You wrote, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Does this mean that all who crucified Jesus are saved??? Does God automatically forgive those who disobey Him??? Certainly not...

God specifically told these Jews what they must do in Acts chapter 2 in order to have forgiveness. On that day, the day of Pentecost, only 3,000 Jews obeyed the gospel of Christ and were saved. The others did not obey and were not saved.

To claim that Judas was saved is just plain ignorance of God's word.

Now how about answering my posts...where I plainly showed that you were not correct concerning Judas.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 12, 2004.


"Pardon me for sticking my nose into this discussion, but I don't see anywhere in scripture where it indicates what was in Judas' heart at the time of his death, one way or the other."

What does Judas "heart" have anything to do with his salvation?

"Perhaps he was distraught at having his dreams shattered. He thought Christ was going to be the new "zealot-of-the-day." He had a plan and scheme, he had a DREAM, that was torn to shreds when Christ was crucified."

Judas never saw Christ's crucifixion as he killed himself prior to this event. (See Matthew 27:3-5).

"He didn't stick around to see the risen savior. His suicidal act may have been just another one of Judas' supremely selfish acts. Who knows!"

Judas killed himself. All murderers will have their place in the lake of fire. (See Revelation 21:8).

"Scripture does tell us that Jesus said it would have been better "if that man had not been born." Of course, a person could take that several ways too, but it doesn't sound to awfully good for Judas in my estimation."

Exactly... Judas will end up in the lake of fire just as it has been written.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 12, 2004.


I don't think any one of us is saying that "Judas is saved!"

I think there are some who are absolutely sure and say "no way" based on some excellent biblical evidence.

And others who, despite what can be quoted, backed up, and "seems" as plain as the nose on a face,--- are still more comfortable leaving Judas' fate to the final Judge. Those whose agendas are in no way advanced or destroyed by being sure of Judas' ultimate fate.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 13, 2004.


What if we are wrong about Judas? I would rather be "lost" in his fate, than wrong in his judgement. We don't have to condemn anyone. Judas did his deed; he had a role in God's plan. That's all we really need to understand, yes? We can learn from the events. For me, Judas represents the world in trying to do without God. The world thinks it can fix any problem on their own. When the world plays "god", its fate will be identical to Judas (whatever that will be).

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 14, 2004.


Jim wrote, "I don't think any one of us is saying that "Judas is saved!"

You couldn't tell that by reading what Rod has posted.

Jim wrote, "I think there are some who are absolutely sure and say "no way" based on some excellent biblical evidence."

And where is your evidence to the contrary based on biblical evidence?

Jim wrote, "And others who, despite what can be quoted, backed up, and "seems" as plain as the nose on a face,--- are still more comfortable leaving Judas' fate to the final Judge."

Judas fate was sealed the moment he killed himself. You can rest assured that all murderers will end up in the lake of fire.

Jim wrote, "Those whose agendas are in no way advanced or destroyed by being sure of Judas' ultimate fate."

All one has to do is read what has been written and the only correct conclusion concerning Judas is that he was lost.

Rod wrote, "What if we are wrong about Judas?"

God does not lie.

Rod wrote, "I would rather be "lost" in his fate, than wrong in his judgement."

I don't think you would, maybe you will have an opportunity to decide on judgment day however, I think not.

Rod wrote, "We don't have to condemn anyone."

Who is doing the condemning? Did Kevin write the New Testament or did God?

Rod wrote, "Judas did his deed; he had a role in God's plan. That's all we really need to understand, yes?"

Yes, he did his deed and will pay the price for his works.

Rod wrote, "We can learn from the events."

Yes we can.

Rod wrote, "For me, Judas represents the world in trying to do without God. The world thinks it can fix any problem on their own. When the world plays "god", its fate will be identical to Judas (whatever that will be)."

Who is playing God when all that is being done is pointing out what God has specifically stated in His word? Where is it written that "when the world plays "god" it's fate will be identical to Judas"???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 16, 2004.


Vengeance is God's, not man's. I tend to apply this to Judas' situation, too.

This means that I would not dare make a judgement on Judas because God will take care of Judas' judgement. Wouldn't this view be correct in obeying God?

The world (those who are reject God) tries to judge others, but they are outside of God's grace. According to St. Paul's letters, let him be given back to Satan--the world--for his judgement. I think that we are speaking about two forms of judgement--secular and sacred.

........................ ................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.


God already judged Judas--and we can see this judgement in the Scriptures.

And you are right not to do any judging yourself. And this would include not judging those of us who listen to God's Word.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 17, 2004.


Looks like we are all firmly in the same place we started. My last question on this subject is: How does it matter to us one way or another what Judas' final fate was. He played out the role and through that process we are offered salvation. Whether he's in Hell seems somewhat imaterial. Is it just a point of view, or an issue that some of us feel it is necessary to "Know" and others don't?

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 17, 2004.

"And this would include not judging those of us who listen to God's Word. "

Uh? what posseses you to say that, Faith? Also, I listen to God's Word, but I do not call all "interpretations" God's. Most interpretations are man's. For example:

Kevin keeps harping on Murderer's being condemned. Of course, but I do recall that all sins can be forgiven when we confess and repent. If that is not possible, then of what meaning does Christ' death on the cross mean? So, we need to know that even Judas has the offering of Salvation. If Judas repented, it is not up to us to figure that out. But, many are fast and furious to fry Judas in Hell. I am not in such a hurry. God teaches me that forgiveness is His nature, too. Do you think that Jesus would not forgive Judas? Of course He would. But, we don't know if Judas confessed; Scriptures doesn't tell us, cuz we really don't need to know. Unless, we go ahead and believe you all's interpretations. I'd rather not play "god".

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.


'And this would include not judging those of us who listen to God's Word. "

You all can believe what you please. Who am I to change your thinking and beliefs? I'm just trying to defend my thinking and my beliefs. If you wish to join me, fine! If not, that's ok too. I will certainly not judge you. I think I've made that clear. Have I?

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.


Well for example rod--

You keep saying that we are condemning Judas simply because we believe God's Word about it-- and declare it to be so, that Judas was condemned.

You act all righteous and you talk religion by saying.,"We are not to condemn others" as if that was what we who believe God were actually even doing.

So in that respect--you are judging us...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 17, 2004.


" You keep saying that we are condemning Judas simply because we believe God's Word about it-- and declare it to be so, that Judas was condemned. "

Nope, sorry. That isn't accurate at all, Faith. You are condemning Judas because that is your interpretation of Scriptures. Actually, it is your interpretation of the Gospel writer's interpretation. There are times when I wish I had never been born. That doesn't mean that I am condemned to Hell. All that means is that my life may be going through trials that seem impossible. Judas entered into that phase of crisis that had severe impact for the rest of the world to come. Was he meant to be used in such a role of denying and indicting Christ to the executioners?

You believe that God has told you that Judas is condemned to Hell. If that is your belief, go in peace. Some of us are hard of hearing; I suppose. Will you next teach me to forgive only a select group of sinners? Which ones?

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.


Well, how about it, Faith? Would Jesus forgive Judas or not?

I notice that you won't answer those tough questions. I know; if you can't find it in Scriptures, then there just isn't an answer. But, the question is still unanswered, Faith.

Not only am I "Hysterical", I'm also "Righteous". What's next? Ah! "Pompus". "Judgmental", "Ignorant", "Thick", "Blind", "Lost",.....

Any more adjectives you'd like to add, Faith?

(Jeepers, I guess Zarove was right afterall.)

So, what about all that ugly stuff you've said about the Catholic Church? Does that make you "righteous" over them? Hmmmm??

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.


oops! I forgot:

"Emotional"

"Liar"

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.


"Vengeance is God's, not man's. I tend to apply this to Judas' situation, too."

I have not said anything to the contrary. Does God condemn murderers??? Yes or No??? If yes (See Revelation 21:8), then God has already judged.

"This means that I would not dare make a judgement on Judas because God will take care of Judas' judgement. Wouldn't this view be correct in obeying God?"

Judas fate was already sealed the moment he killed himself. Suicide is self-murder, so God has condemned him to the lake of fire.

"The world (those who are reject God)?? tries to judge others, but they are outside of God's grace."

Who is in this category "the world" Rod??? Does God say that we are not to judge??? Or is there a condition that is applied if we are to make a judgment???

"According to St. Paul's letters, let him be given back to Satan--the world--for his judgement."

Where is this written in the New Testament???

"I think that we are speaking about two forms of judgement--secular and sacred."

Does the Catholic Church state that Judas has the opportunity to be saved??? If so, this is something else (among many others) that is not in accordance with the word of God.

"Looks like we are all firmly in the same place we started. My last question on this subject is: How does it matter to us one way or another what Judas' final fate was."

It doesn't matter to us, it matters to God and He has already judged Judas final fate.

"He played out the role and through that process we are offered salvation. Whether he's in Hell seems somewhat imaterial. Is it just a point of view, or an issue that some of us feel it is necessary to "Know" and others don't?"

God says that all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8), Judas was a murderer, how hard is that for you to understand? This doesn't surprise me that Catholics reject what God has plainly revealed in His word as they claim to follow God, but choose to follow a man instead.

"Kevin keeps harping on Murderer's being condemned."

I am not the one who wrote, "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev 21:8).

"Of course, but I do recall that all sins can be forgiven when we confess and repent."

Judas killed himself and did not have an opportunity to repent of his sin of murder so, he will end up in the lake of fire.

"If that is not possible, then of what meaning does Christ' death on the cross mean? So, we need to know that even Judas has the offering of Salvation. If Judas repented, it is not up to us to figure that out."

Once you die, your fate is sealed for God says in Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

"But, many are fast and furious to fry Judas in Hell. I am not in such a hurry. God teaches me that forgiveness is His nature, too. Do you think that Jesus would not forgive Judas? Of course He would. But, we don't know if Judas confessed; Scriptures doesn't tell us, cuz we really don't need to know. Unless, we go ahead and believe you all's interpretations. I'd rather not play "god"."

"Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." (John 19:11).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 17, 2004.


Ah! so sins vary in degree of their grave-ness. Are those sins also forgivable?

I don't know what the Catholic Church teaches about Judas' fate.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.


Don't you think that a person can suddenly change their minds and heart moments during their choking and dangling from a rope? Do you ever cry out for Jesus right before you crash into another vehicle or fall from a tree? Is it possible that Judas could have realized his sins and cried out to Jesus just moments before the noose choked the spirit out of him? Of course, it is very possible. Why can't it be? Is it probable? Not if I listen to those fundamental interpretations. Why do we sin in the first place? And then, why do we feel remorse for doing so? I can see Judas pulling the trigger on a pistol and not having enough earthly time to confess or regret his actions of suicide. I think that dangling from a branch offers a little more time to reconsider, rethink, and regret--confession, repentance, God's forgiveness. Of course, Scriptures doesn't say that Judas experience what I have described. So, you all have every justification to nail Judas' verdict pat. I just don't want to be "judgemental" about a soul's eternaty.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.


Oops, I had time to rethink:

Of course, Scriptures doesn't say that Judas experienced what I have described--his possible thoughts in the noose.

I once passed out at the doctor's office. I heard voices calling me and that proverbial light at the end of the tunnel. I gasped for air that never came then everything went black before I found myself staring into a cieling of white tiles. The doctors around me had a look of terror. They hovered over me with posture of helplessness. Shoot! they could have given me oxygen. I came to on my own. Now, I wonder. Does a person need to be awake in order to be "not dead"? Do our feelings, thoughts, and desires manifest themselves in our dream states? Do our confessions and prayers remain valid in a less than conscious state of mind? Does the coma patient have the offer of Salvation the same as the "awake"? Did Judas have that same offer of Salvation as his life slowing slipped away? Did Judas talk with Jesus in his semi-conscious or unconscious state? Let's say that only our conscious state is valid. Did Judas have enough time before death? Did Dismas?

...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.


"Don't you think that a person can suddenly change their minds and heart moments during their choking and dangling from a rope?"

By then it is too late.

"Do you ever cry out for Jesus right before you crash into another vehicle or fall from a tree?"

Does this mean that Jesus is obligated to save everyone who calls on His name?

"Is it possible that Judas could have realized his sins and cried out to Jesus just moments before the noose choked the spirit out of him? Of course, it is very possible. Why can't it be? Is it probable? Not if I listen to those fundamental interpretations."

Sorry, it is not possible. Judas killed himself and this is self-murder. All murderers will have their part in the lake of fire.

"Why do we sin in the first place? And then, why do we feel remorse for doing so? I can see Judas pulling the trigger on a pistol and not having enough earthly time to confess or regret his actions of suicide."

If he would have had "godly sorrow" he would not have killed himself for God says in 2 Corinthians 7:10, "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death."

"I think that dangling from a branch offers a little more time to reconsider, rethink, and regret--confession, repentance, God's forgiveness. Of course, Scriptures doesn't say that Judas experience what I have described. So, you all have every justification to nail Judas' verdict pat. I just don't want to be "judgemental" about a soul's eternaty."

God has already passed judgment, so I am merely pointing out what God has already ordained and nothing more.

"Of course, Scriptures doesn't say that Judas experienced what I have described--his possible thoughts in the noose."

Exactly...

"I once passed out at the doctor's office. I heard voices calling me and that proverbial light at the end of the tunnel. I gasped for air that never came then everything went black before I found myself staring into a cieling of white tiles. The doctors around me had a look of terror. They hovered over me with posture of helplessness. Shoot! they could have given me oxygen. I came to on my own. Now, I wonder. Does a person need to be awake in order to be "not dead"? Do our feelings, thoughts, and desires manifest themselves in our dream states? Do our confessions and prayers remain valid in a less than conscious state of mind? Does the coma patient have the offer of Salvation the same as the "awake"? Did Judas have that same offer of Salvation as his life slowing slipped away?"

Here you go with your logic again Rod. Why do you have a problem believing what has been written in the New Testament???

"Did Judas talk with Jesus in his semi-conscious or unconscious state?"

Probably not...

"Let's say that only our conscious state is valid. Did Judas have enough time before death?"

If he did, then he would not have killed himself.

"Did Dismas?"

Who is "Dismas"???

If you are claiming the thief on the cross, then the thief did not kill himself, the Romans placed him there.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 17, 2004.


"Is it possible that Judas could have realized his sins and cried out to Jesus just moments before the noose choked the spirit out of him? Of course, it is very possible. Why can't it be? Is it probable? Not if I listen to those fundamental interpretations."

Sorry, it is not possible. Judas killed himself and this is self-murder. All murderers will have their part in the lake of fire.

rod replies: Now, you are denying sanity if you cannot consider possibilities.

"Here you go with your logic again Rod. Why do you have a problem believing what has been written in the New Testament??? "

rod replies: I don't have any problems believing the New Testament. Again, I have problems believing what people interpret from the Bible. "Did Judas talk with Jesus in his semi-conscious or unconscious state?"

Kevin answers: Probably not...

rod replies: Well, Kevin. I presented a possibility. You present the ability to read what was in Judas' mind. How is that possible for you to be able to read other people's thoughts?

rod asks:"Let's say that only our conscious state is valid. Did Judas have enough time before death?"

Kevin answers: If he did, then he would not have killed himself.

rod replies: Hmmm. You missed the timing here. I am referring to the instant Judas may have realized his moment of acceptance (if any) directly after gravity took control of the inevitable. Besides, we still sin even after accepting Christ.

"Did Dismas?" Who is "Dismas"???

Dismas was the name of one of the criminals on the cross who asked forgiveness from Christ.

If you are claiming the thief on the cross, then the thief did not kill himself, the Romans placed him there.

I never claimed that Dismas committed suicide. But, we must consider the risk Dismas took in falling into a life of crime/sin. He must have known the penalty, yet he paid the risks. But, for Dismas, he also had a final chance to accept Christ. Perhaps the circumstances lead him to accept Christ, afterall, Dismas was on his dying thread.

So, Kevin, you dismiss what is logically possible. You also can read what was on Judas' mind prior to his death, not his hanging or the act of suicide. I am talking about his death. You know what was in his mind. What is in my mind? I don't know what was in Judas' mind, but I only give you a possibility.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.


The Romans may have nailed Dismas to the cross, but Dismas bought the ticket for his penalty. Perhaps Dismas didn't have any other options besides thievery and had to steal to live. I don't know. Maybe he was caught while others were lucky. Dismas did admit to his guilt, but he also accept Christ. Was it his timing or his state of mind or a response to stimuli? People do funny things when they know they are going to die. Some expediate the inevitable, some prolong their fate, others pray, and some convert. This sounds like that last ounce of hope in a hopeless situation. Does God offer us that pinpoint of light when everything looks hopelessly lost? Well, I sure hope so, at least, for my sake in my situation.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2004.




-- (bold@off.com), October 17, 2004.

Peculiar. On my Mac, the bold type is ok. On this PC, the bold type stayed "on".

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 18, 2004.


rod..,

It would seem to me that if God wanted to teach that we could have a last second chance conversion before the very last breath we take-- then He would have revealed this about Judas.

God is not stuck in a time frame with us--He sees everything past present and future--and this is why the Bible reads that way.

The Scriptures clearly teach that Judas was doomed to destruction. No teaching exists of last minute conversion--something that I think would have been important to reveal.

God--knowing everything past, present and future--says that Judas was condemned.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 18, 2004.


It isn't a matter of "conversion", but simply a matter of repentance. Every Christian has the opportunity to repent until he/she is dead. Then and only then it is too late. There would be no point in God revealing Judas's private repentance, if in fact such a thing happened. We know that many have received the grace of final repentance while on their deathbed, or while awaiting execution. The same could have happened with Judas. Granted, the fact that he was in the act of committing suicide would seem to indicate despair rather than repentance; but still, it could have happened, and no-one knows for sure except Judas and God.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 18, 2004.

Exactly, Paul. This is why I can't say that Judas is in Hell. I can't put him there just because it seems like the "right" thing to say and believe. It isn't. God knows; we don't.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 18, 2004.


I disagree Paul--because if there was a conversion in the last minute by Judas., then the Scriptures would reflect that. Even if they didn't outright explain the conversion--at the very least, they would not say that Judas was doomed to destruction or that he was condemned.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 18, 2004.

If it isn't written, then there must not be an answer? Huh?

Did Adam have a belly button? The Bible doesn't say, but we can pretty well guess that Adam didn't have a belly button. But, what is worse to all of this is the idea that any person can decipher and understand the Scriptures on their own. Ah! but you can understand what your teachers have provided for you to understand. And, that is what is being discussed in this thread. Everyone has their time under the lights of "Broadway" when it comes to their own interpretations. All I've done is to present a "possibility", but some here will not even consider such a "possibility" because they are very well indoctrinated by their leaders.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 18, 2004.


The Last Rites are given to those who are moments away from death. Salvation is always possible. I'm reminded of the story of the workers who are paid the same amount even when they were hired at different times.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 18, 2004.


Like I said though rod--

If salvation did come to Judas--then the Scriptures would not declare his destruction...hmm?

And no one understands the Scriptures on their own. It is with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in us--that we can understand.

Even the members of your church hierarchy were trying to determine the Scriptures on their own--if they were not truly part of His Body. And I suspect that many supposed Roman Catholic *hierarcy* were not legitimate members of the Body of Christ. And by this I am not refering to your religion--but the real body of believers which is the true church.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 19, 2004.


Do you mean like when your Bible group gets together and interprets answers?

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.


Does your question seem to make any sense to you, rod?

To me--it doesn't seem to follow anything. I am not sure what you are asking...Do I mean what????

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 19, 2004.


The problem for you Rod, is that faith has evaded the question as to what Church she belongs.

For that reason, you will have a hard time trying to decipher her.

She doesn't have one. But she is a Bible Fundamentalist. There are quite a few like that: Southern Baptists, .....

It took me a while to decipher David O. and Zarove. They also don't have a true Church.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.


Elpidio..,

I have always said that although my church is non-denominational in its presentational flavor and quite contemporary--and yes--strictly biblical...we do have Baptist roots.

If I had to claim a specific denomination--it would have to be Baptist., though not southern and certainly not reformed (as in Calvinistic).

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 19, 2004.


So I was very close, faith.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.


Except--Elpidio.,

That you accused me of *evading* the question to begin with--which is not true. You also claimed that i don't have a church????

I also think David would have a laugh at the notion that he doesn't have a church. He is clearly of a "reformed" protestant denomination-- probably Presbyterain.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 19, 2004.


"rod replies: Now, you are denying sanity if you cannot consider possibilities."

The word of God tells us what the fate is of murderers ? the Lake of Fire. (See Revelation 21:8). It does not surprise me that you do not believe what God has plainly revealed in His word.

"rod replies: I don't have any problems believing the New Testament. Again, I have problems believing what people interpret from the Bible. "Did Judas talk with Jesus in his semi-conscious or unconscious state?"

1 Corinthians 4:6 states, "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written..." "rod replies: Well, Kevin. I presented a possibility. You present the ability to read what was in Judas' mind. How is that possible for you to be able to read other people's thoughts?"

No, you present the ability to read God's mind beyond what has been written. If Judas would have repented before he died, he would not have killed himself. Case closed.

"rod replies: Hmmm. You missed the timing here. I am referring to the instant Judas may have realized his moment of acceptance (if any) directly after gravity took control of the inevitable. Besides, we still sin even after accepting Christ."

By that time it is too late...come one Rod, to claim that one can repent at the last instant before they kill themselves is just plain ludicrous. Think about what you are saying... The fact remains that Judas killed himself and according to what God has written, these people will have their place in the lake of fire whether you believe it or not... Didn't they say that on Ripley's... Yes, we still sin after we accept Christ however, no Christian would ever kill themselves and remain a Christian.

"I never claimed that Dismas committed suicide. But, we must consider the risk Dismas took in falling into a life of crime/sin. He must have known the penalty, yet he paid the risks. But, for Dismas, he also had a final chance to accept Christ. Perhaps the circumstances lead him to accept Christ, afterall, Dismas was on his dying thread."

How did the thief know about Jesus??? Was the thief baptized prior to being crucified??? The word of God does not reveal this specifically however he must have been baptized and had his sins washed away otherwise Jesus wouldn't have told him he would be with him in paradise.

"So, Kevin, you dismiss what is logically possible."

Not according to what has been written in God's word.

"You also can read what was on Judas' mind prior to his death, not his hanging or the act of suicide."

I never claimed that I could read Judas mind prior to his death. Here is another passage to prove to you Rod that Judas was "lost". John 17:12 states, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

"I am talking about his death. You know what was in his mind. What is in my mind? I don't know what was in Judas' mind, but I only give you a possibility."

Yea, you give not possibilities, only assumptions that are completely at odds with God's word.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 19, 2004.


"It isn't a matter of "conversion", but simply a matter of repentance. Every Christian has the opportunity to repent until he/she is dead. Then and only then it is too late. There would be no point in God revealing Judas's private repentance, if in fact such a thing happened. We know that many have received the grace of final repentance while on their deathbed, or while awaiting execution. The same could have happened with Judas. Granted, the fact that he was in the act of committing suicide would seem to indicate despair rather than repentance; but still, it could have happened, and no-one knows for sure except Judas and God."

This is typical Catholic double talk. First Paul says that "every Christian has the opportunity to repent until he/she is dead", then he turns right around and says "...but still, it could have happened, and no-one knows for sure except Judas and God".

The fact of the matter is Judas killed himself and Jesus said that he (Judas) was lost (see John 17:12). To claim anything otherwise is the same as calling God a liar.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 19, 2004.


Kevin: Yes, we still sin after we accept Christ however, no Christian would ever kill themselves and remain a Christian.

rod: Not true. Christ allowed his death in order to save the world. Soldiers are willing to sacrifice their lives to save others; some are Christians. The Martyrs have died instead of denying their undying faith in Jesus.

Kevin: How did the thief know about Jesus??? Was the thief baptized prior to being crucified??? The word of God does not reveal this specifically however he must have been baptized and had his sins washed away otherwise Jesus wouldn't have told him he would be with him in paradise.

rod: Shame on you, Kevin. You are actually stepping outside of "Sola Scriptura" and drawing conclusions on a "possibility". Good man! You are beginning to blossom! Or, how come you can perform conjecture, but we are not allowed to do that?????

Kevin: Yea, you give not possibilities, only assumptions that are completely at odds with God's word.

rod: You've got to be kidding me if you cannot distinguish between "possibilities" and "assumptions". I'm not assuming anything in regards to Judas. You are. You are saying that "the Son of Perdition" is in fact Judas.

Also, you cannot even realize the interval between falling on a noose and death. You are assuming that Judas died instantly. The Bible doesn't say anything about how long Judas took to die. Yet, you make it sound like it was quick. Basically, you do not want to entertain any possibilities that threaten your fixations. Once again, I believe God's Word, not man's.

Kevin: 1 Corinthians 4:6 states, "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written..."

rod: It seems that you have gone against Scriptures. You wrote:

"The word of God does not reveal this specifically however he must have been baptized and had his sins washed away otherwise Jesus wouldn't have told him he would be with him in paradise."

Now, where in Scriptures does is say that, Kevin. Or, are you presenting a "Possibility"? Should I reject your "assumptions"? Afterall, it isn't written anywhere. Are you guessing?

At least, we can figure out who Dismas is. Before, you didn't know who he was. Oh, the Bible doesn't exactly mention him by name. Ok, let's go back and just call him, "the Theif on the cross

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.


I wrote, "Yes, we still sin after we accept Christ however, no Christian would ever kill themselves and remain a Christian."

To which Rod replied, "Not true. Christ allowed his death in order to save the world. Soldiers are willing to sacrifice their lives to save others; some are Christians. The Martyrs have died instead of denying their undying faith in Jesus."

The truth says that Christ did not kill himself. Are you insinuating that Christ killed himself Rod??? We are talking about suicide which is what Judas committed, not soldiers who are trying to protect their country nor Martyrs who have died but they also did not kill themselves. There is a difference. You are grasping at straws...keep trying...

I wrote, "How did the thief know about Jesus??? Was the thief baptized prior to being crucified??? The word of God does not reveal this specifically however he must have been baptized and had his sins washed away otherwise Jesus wouldn't have told him he would be with him in paradise."

To which Rod replied, "Shame on you, Kevin. You are actually stepping outside of "Sola Scriptura" and drawing conclusions on a "possibility". Good man! You are beginning to blossom! Or, how come you can perform conjecture, but we are not allowed to do that?????"

In this case, a necessary inference can be drawn because it is obvious that the thief knew Jesus, hence the possibility he could have been baptized. The situation with Judas is completely different as we have been told what is the fate of Judas, he was lost.

I wrote, "Yea, you give not possibilities, only assumptions that are completely at odds with God's word."

To which Rod replied, "You've got to be kidding me if you cannot distinguish between "possibilities" and "assumptions". I'm not assuming anything in regards to Judas."

Really now Rod??? Let's see if this is true. You make an assumption because you have "no" proof that Judas first repented of his sins. Then you again assume (with no proof) that God will forgive him of his sins contrary to what has been revealed. So to claim that "I'm not assuming anything in regards to Judas is just not the truth.

Rod wrote, "You are."

Let's see if this is true.

Rod wrote, "You are saying that "the Son of Perdition" is in fact Judas."

I didn't say it, God did. (see John 17:12). Did Jesus call Judas a "devil"??? (see John 6:70-71). No assumptions here Rod.

Rod wrote, "Also, you cannot even realize the interval between falling on a noose and death. You are assuming that Judas died instantly. The Bible doesn't say anything about how long Judas took to die. Yet, you make it sound like it was quick. Basically, you do not want to entertain any possibilities that threaten your fixations. Once again, I believe God's Word, not man's."

Again, no assumption here for God says in Acts 1:18, "and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out."

Sounds like he died instantly to me Rod...

You claim to believe God's word, but that is not the truth...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 19, 2004.


Again, no assumption here for God says in Acts 1:18, "and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out."

I have read differing accounts. You must be certain that yours is accurate? I've also read that Judas threw himself in a pit of fire. Even if your account is the standard documentation, anything is possible. You won't admit it. I've seen suicide bombers being lifted off the pavement and placed on a gurdy while the victim was still conscious. He was in pieces, yet still alive.

I like your response about "conjecture". I guess you are priviledged to do so at will.

...................

Kevin????? When did I say that Christ killed himself????? Did Christ die for us or not? You could have chosen not to die, but because of His love for us, he allowed His sacrifice to happen. You can read Scriptures well, but you can't read your common man's posts?

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.


"I have read differing accounts. You must be certain that yours is accurate? I've also read that Judas threw himself in a pit of fire. Even if your account is the standard documentation, anything is possible. You won't admit it."

Here are the different acounts from four different versions:

NKJV - Acts 1:18, "(Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out."

KJV - Acts 1:18, "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

NIV - Acts 1:18, "(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out."

ASV - Acts 1:18, "(Now this man obtained a field with the reward of his iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

Four different versions of the Bible say that Judas fell, then his insides spilled out. It is plain that he died instantly.

Let's see if your version differs from what I posted to see if what you say is true.

You wrote, "I've seen suicide bombers being lifted off the pavement and placed on a gurdy while the victim was still conscious. He was in pieces, yet still alive."

There is no way that Judas could been alive after what the word of God reveals what happened to this man...

You wrote, I like your response about "conjecture". I guess you are priviledged to do so at will."

Yep, this is a free country...

You wrote, "Kevin????? When did I say that Christ killed himself????? Did Christ die for us or not? You could have chosen not to die, but because of His love for us, he allowed His sacrifice to happen. You can read Scriptures well, but you can't read your common man's posts?

The reason I made that comment was in your response to my comment of: "?no Christian would ever kill themselves and remain a Christian.

You wrote, "Not true. Christ allowed his death in order to save the world."

You were insinuating that Christ killed himself from your statement of "Not true."

The death of Christ was not a suicide even if He allowed it to happen.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 19, 2004.


Ok, Kevin. Here we go again.

You said, "?no Christian would ever kill themselves and remain a Christian. "

What are the chances of a Christian soldier going to war and actually knowing that he/she may not make it back alive?

Worse yet, would a Christian soldier volunteer for a "suicide mission" knowing that his actions may very well save many other lives?

Yes, a Christian would allow himself the "risk" and possibility of killing themselves in "action" and still remain a Christian. Unless, it is wrong to be an enlisted man/woman in the armed forces on the battle field, is it?

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.


Ok, the phrase "killing themselves" may be confusing. I guess you mean suicide. No, at first glance, he might not. But, there is another thread discussing "suicide". Eventhen, there are extenuating circumstances that are not evident. We still can't go condemning others.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2004.


Rod,

You wrote, "What are the chances of a Christian soldier going to war and actually knowing that he/she may not make it back alive?"

This has nothing to do with a "suicide" which is what we are talking about... You are spinning your wheels... and going nowhere fast...

You wrote, "Worse yet, would a Christian soldier volunteer for a "suicide mission" knowing that his actions may very well save many other lives?"

Please note that this person may be a Christian however, they are protecting their country. This so called "sucide mission" that you speak of they are not killing themselves. Someone else is doing that for them... Jesus Christ died, but someone else killed him...

You wrote, "Yes, a Christian would allow himself the "risk" and possibility of killing themselves in "action" and still remain a Christian."

They are protecting their country, not "killing themselves".

You wrote, "Unless, it is wrong to be an enlisted man/woman in the armed forces on the battle field, is it?"

I guess you forget that I was in the Navy... So the answer to your question is it is "not" wrong to be in the armed forces. There is a difference between killing yourself and someone killing you...

You are still grasping at straws... and wasting your time...

It doesn't surprise me that you don't make an argument from Scripture for your position because none exists...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 19, 2004.


Kevin, I don't forget that you are Navy. Why do you think I made my point in that direction?

Gosh! one day I would like to have a real conversation with you. I think we both would understand each other (not agree) face to face.

I can't pull you out of your narrow visions. It is best just to give up.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.


"It doesn't surprise me that you don't make an argument from Scripture for your position because none exists... "--Kevin.

Well, this can be a problem when answers cannot be found in Scriptures and then people start making their own answers. I'm talking about Protestantism, here.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.


Well, this can be a problem when answers cannot be found in Scriptures and then people start making their own answers.

Would issues like the cloning of humans fall into this category?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 20, 2004.


Yes.

I've read that science is advancing quickly to the possibility of actually deciphering the way life is created. I'm not sure what scientists are really saying. But, I gather that they understand the basic components and process of creation. I suppose it would be something like planting some "Super Tang" on some planet and then watching Genesis all over again. That sounds like man playing god. Can it be done or is it all science fiction?

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.


"I can't pull you out of your narrow visions. It is best just to give up."

Sorry Rod my visions are "not" narrow, they are based on what God has plainly revealed in His word. God has specifically told us what will happen to all murderers and yet you continue to question whether or not God will carry out what He has revealed in His word. God plainly states that Judas was "lost" (John 17:12) and yet you and the Catholic Church say... but, but, but, there still may be a chance... and completely change what has been written.

I will leave you with this quote from the Old Testament concerning Judas: "5 Thus they have rewarded me evil for good, And hatred for my love. 6 Set a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand. 7 When he is judged, let him be found guilty, And let his prayer become sin. 8 Let his days be few, And let another take his office." (Psalm 109:5-8).

Now will you concede that Judas was "lost"???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 21, 2004.


This reminds me of a joke:

This guy takes a trip to Houston, Texas. He drives for 6 hours, but then turns around and comes back home. As he arrives back home, a friend looks at him and wonders why he has returned so soon. The guy answers, "When I got to Houston, I read a sign: 'HOUSTON LEFT', so I turned around and came back home."

Kevin, you keep preaching that people will be lost if they don't "obey". You can isolate particular verses and then proceed to nail the poor souls to their deaths. Well, sure. If I murder someone, I'll more than likely fry for the sin. But, but, but, whatever happened to that forgiveness that God is all about? Does His forgiveness exists or not? A person must repent for all of their sins if God is to forgive them. Judas looks, walks, talks, and swims like a "lost" soul destined to Hell. Yes, yes, yes! It do! But, but, but, what about God's Divine Mercy and the "possibility" of Judas' confession and repentance. I must believe that all things are "POSSIBLE" through/with God. So, I cannot nail Judas to his death as simple as that. Do you want Judas frying in Hell or something? I don't. We are not taught to hate, but to love, yes? It is difficult to practice love in the heat of battle. If a person choses not to confess and repent, his coffin is nailed shut signed, "Deliver to: LAKE-OF-FIRE".

I wasn't aware that the Catholic Church and I shared the same viewpoint.

In regards to the Scripture you provided, is there such a thing as a person's reputation the lives on after one's death? I know that you do not subscribe to the Deuterocanonicals. I understand that the Jewish community had high regards for a person's reputation. You read death and destruction of the soul in that Scripture. I read the aftermath of earthly deeds that have an affect on the world to come. I also read how Judas engaged in a roll that you nor I would dare accept or fall into unless it was meant to be. Did God deliberately use Judas in His plan? No. I cannot accept that. Is it within the human nature for some to fall into the roll of betraying Christ? Yes. But, can a mortal-sinner still find forgiveness from God? If not, then He is not the God I believe in. Was Judas lost after his death? I hope not. God knows.

.............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.


Ooops! Yes, Judas did "roll", but I meant "role".

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.


And yes, I choose to use "chose" to mean "choose" instead of "chose". There...."quack, quack".

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.


Did Judas repent?

Matthew 27

3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. NIV.

Matthew 27

3 Then when (1) Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned (2) the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,NASB

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.


Further discussion about Judas.

Here is the URL:

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CTF7

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.


"This guy takes a trip to Houston, Texas. He drives for 6 hours, but then turns around and comes back home. As he arrives back home, a friend looks at him and wonders why he has returned so soon. The guy answers, "When I got to Houston, I read a sign: 'HOUSTON LEFT', so I turned around and came back home."

This is a take off from a blonde joke about going to Disneyland... Ignorance is no excuse Rod...

"Kevin, you keep preaching that people will be lost if they don't "obey". You can isolate particular verses and then proceed to nail the poor souls to their deaths."

Sorry Rod, I didn't take verses "out of context" nor did I "isolate particular verses" just to nail "poor souls to their deaths". This thread is about Judas and I merely pointed out to you what God has already stated in His word concerning this man. God has said that Judas is lost and you disagree with what God has revealed and this is in fact calling God a liar.

"Well, sure. If I murder someone, I'll more than likely fry for the sin. But, but, but, whatever happened to that forgiveness that God is all about? Does His forgiveness exists or not? A person must repent for all of their sins if God is to forgive them."

Judas did not repent of his sin, therefore he was lost...

"Judas looks, walks, talks, and swims like a "lost" soul destined to Hell. Yes, yes, yes! It do! But, but, but, what about God's Divine Mercy and the "possibility" of Judas' confession and repentance."

Sorry, it didn't happen.

"I must believe that all things are "POSSIBLE" through/with God. So, I cannot nail Judas to his death as simple as that. Do you want Judas frying in Hell or something? I don't. We are not taught to hate, but to love, yes? It is difficult to practice love in the heat of battle. If a person choses not to confess and repent, his coffin is nailed shut signed, "Deliver to: LAKE-OF-FIRE"."

The Bible says that he was "lost", a "devil", the "son of perdition", "it would have been good for that man if he had not been born" among many other things and yet you reject what was written about this man. God has already judged this man, I am merely pointing out what has already been decided.

"In regards to the Scripture you provided, is there such a thing as a person's reputation the lives on after one's death?"

This has nothing to do with their salvation. Will we be judged by our "reputation" or by our works???

"Was Judas lost after his death? I hope not. God knows."

Yes, Judas was lost after his death for that is what Scripture reveals.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 22, 2004.


Then, the problem I see is that Matthew and Luke have decided what God has decided. And, you believe Matthew, Mark , and Luke.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.


Actually, the joke I first heard it as a Texas Aggie joke.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.


"Then, the problem I see is that Matthew and Luke have decided what God has decided. And, you believe Matthew, Mark , and Luke."

In layman's terms please...

In other words, no comprende...

"Actually, the joke I first heard it as a Texas Aggie joke."

Okay, this doesn't surprise me... :-)

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 22, 2004.


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