The pope always seems to say the Mass in the vernacular, yet praises the Latin. It seems as if he does not like the Latin for himself.

This news item got me thinking abiut that;

Pope John Paul II (1980 letter on the mystery and worship of the Eucharist), praised Latin as an expression of the unity of the Church which, through its dignified character, elicited a profound sense of the Eucharistic mystery. He said it was necessary to show understanding and full respect towards those Catholics who missed the use of the old Latin liturgy, and to accommodate their desires as far as possible. He said the Roman Church has special obligations towards Latin and she must manifest them whenever the occasion presents itself. And at the start of the new millennium, Pope John Paul told an international group of pilgrims in Rome on July 28, 1999: "We strongly encourage you all that, by diligent study and effective teaching, you may pass on like a torch the understanding, love and use of this immortal language in your own countries."

-- Lucille G. (awetrs@yahoo.com), October 11, 2004

Answers

Lucille,

The pope should lead by example. If he publicly offered an indult mass, I am sure that the pressure would be too great for the bishops to ignore. Why he does not, who knows?

-- Roger (2345@6789.com), October 12, 2004.

Mass celebrated in the venacular is intended to promote active participation in the spirituality of the mass in all its forms.

Anything short of that would be detrimental.

Latin masses are beautiful and should augment, but should never replace the venacular.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), October 14, 2004.

Mass celebrated in the venacular is intended to promote active participation in the spirituality of the mass in all its forms. Anything short of that would be detrimental.

Has the vernacular mass achieved this active participation in the spirtuality of the mass in your opinion? Is it better than the old mass?

Latin masses are beautiful and should augment, but should never replace the venacular

If Latin Masses don't promote participation in the spirituality of the mass to the degree that Mass in the vernacular does, how can the former augment the latter?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), October 14, 2004.

Actually, I disagree with John. I think the Mass should be in Latin--it would be a unifying experience, especially when travelling to foreign countries.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 14, 2004.

Hate to point this out John, but the norm is meant to be Latin, the vernacular is allowed.

We are also told that for the people's responses, Latin should be promoted.

Hugh

-- Hugh (hugh@inspired.com), October 15, 2004.

Hugh,

That is not correct. The vernacular Mass is the common law of the Church at this time. The Latin Mass is allowed only by pontifical indult. Pontifical indult is defined as "special faculties granted by the Holy See to bishops or others to do something which is not permitted by the common law". Indults are concessions, deviations from the normal life of the Church, which can be granted for sufficient reason.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 15, 2004.

-something I recently ran across is another forum:

"The similarities of Tridentine Mass and charismatic Catholics are most interesting. Although Latin can be deciphered and the tongues heard at charismatic prayer meetings usually cannot, both groups of people feel that a departure from plain old vernacular lends a mystery to worship.

Both groups are repulsed at worship and praise which is plain and without drama. They do not accept that the ineffable and majestic God can be truly adored when the horizontal (social) dominates over the vertical, although charismatics groups have times for intercessory prayer over those in attendance. Charismatic leaders, however, can fall into a cult status whereas in Latin Mass, the rite dominates over the personality of the priest.

Both groups of people are very emotional and convicted about the centrality of Jesus to our salvation and do not go for synchretistic, watering down of doctrine or coopting to worldly thought.

Both groups would like to see the bishops quit messing around and speak prophetic words, hard preaching about the moral dilemnas of our time. They want the kingdom of God brought into the public square, and don't care if you are put out by their boldness. Both groups reject business as usual Catholicism and want to see radical holiness in the Church's members.

The dedicated charismatics and Latin Massers I have known would die for the Church--they are that serious about the Faith. Both groups, I personally believe, are part of the spiritual renewal of the Church which I believe we so desperately need.

_________________ Sincerely in Christ, Fr. Angel"

-I that the comparison fit quite well...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), October 15, 2004.

The Latin Mass is allowed only by pontifical indult.

The indult is needed to say the Tridentine Mass, which must always be said in Latin. But no indult is needed to say the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin.

Casting aside Latin in favor of the vernacular was just about the dumbest thing that the Catholic Church has ever done in her 2000 year history. In so doing the Catholic Church lost both her unity and her identity.

-- DC (skeptickk@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

Dear Deacon Paul

My comments were reagrding the Novus Ordo mass which is in Latin and then translated to the other languages.

(although I would question the requirement for an indult to say the Tridentine Mass, unless you can point me to a text which shows that it was abrogated by the Church in the first place)

Hugh

-- Hugh (hugh@inspired.com), October 15, 2004.

"the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites."
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM (36,1), Vatican II

As is typical of Vatican II documents, though, a statement that upholds tradition is usually followed by "exceptions can be made as needed" kind of statements. The exception then becomes the norm.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), October 15, 2004.

Hugh,

Sorry I misunderstood your previous post. Novus ordo can of course be celebrated in any language without special indult. I have not had the opportunity to attend a novus ordo Mass in Latin. I would like to some time, if one is available locally, though I would not want to make it my usual Mass.

Nick,

You read too much into Sacrosanctum Concilium. The phrase "is to be preserved" certainly is not equivalent to "will be the norm". "Is to be preserved" means "is not to be completely abandoned", and most dioceses are taking steps to ensure that Latin Mass (Here again I mean the Tridentine Mass) is indeed preserved as an available option for those who wish to participate.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 15, 2004.

"Actually, I disagree with John. I think the Mass should be in Latin--it would be a unifying experience, especially when travelling to foreign countries. "

The only time I feel at home when I travel abroad is when I go to Mass (traditional Latin Mass).

-- Faith (fgcc4@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

Paul,

In my diocese, the phrase "the use of the Latin language is to be preserved" has been interpreted as "Latin must be completely abandoned" for the past 40 years. No traditional Latin Mass (Tridentine is somewhat of a misnomer). Not even a Novus Ordo in Latin. [The horrible "Life Teen Mass", sure, no problem, offer one every week! But Latin, what's that?] The past few bishops of my diocese have ignored Sacrosanctum Concilium as well as Ecclesia Dei with the Pope's request for "wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition of 1962."

"and most dioceses are taking steps to ensure that Latin Mass (Here again I mean the Tridentine Mass) is indeed preserved as an available option for those who wish to participate."

Is this really true? I would hope so, but I have my doubts.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), October 15, 2004.

To me, if Latin is to be preserved, then there should be at least one Latin Mass in the largest (population-wise) parish in the county, and more if people want it. Every so often our parish will try a Latin response or hymn, and guess what, very few people respond, because they don't know Latin....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 15, 2004.

Vatican liturgy body wants more Latin, Gregorian chant

Prominent in a list of 'suggestions' released yesterday by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of Sacraments is more prayer and singing in Latin, particularly Gregorian chant.

Catholic News Agency reports that the document, titled The Year of the Eucharist: Suggestions and Proposals, encourages "familiarity of Latin, indicating its necessity, especially in housed of formation and in seminaries, for prayer and singing in Latin, particularly Gregorian chant".

The document, which has been put together by the Vatican congregation with the purpose of giving guidelines towards making the Year of the Eucharist as success, also asks that the tabernacle be conveniently located in a place conducive to private prayer.

Pointing out that the Holy Father asked particular dioceses to come up with pastoral initiatives, the document says it "does not pretend to be exhaustive, but rather limits itself to give, with a simple style, some working suggestions."

The Congregation "suggestions and proposals" include:

• Preparation of documents promoting the Year of the Eucharist, and reflection by priests and faithful local doctrinal and pastoral problems such as the lack of priests, low Sunday Mass attendance, and abandonment of Eucharistic adoration. • Promoting national Eucharistic congresses. • Encouraging knowledge of the saints. • Increasing perpetual adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. • Eucharistic adoration for young people around Palm Sunday. • Dedicating space to the theme of the Eucharist in diocesan magazines, internet sites, and local media. • Teaching the faithful to behave "properly" when entering a Church.

SOURCE Vatican encourages recovering use of Latin, Gregorian chant (Catholic News Agency 14/10/04) Congregation of Liturgy releases suggestions for Year of the Eucharist (Catholic News Agency 14/10/04)

-- - (David@excite.com), October 15, 2004.

Listen to some samples of Gregorian chant. I love it! What I would really like to see is a high mass in English, patterned after the Latin mass. This would preserve the form of mass over the centuries while still allowing me and the rest of the congregation to understand what's going on.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), October 16, 2004.

On the risk of starting another round of nasty posts, I should note that the Legionaries of Christ have been saying Masses in Latin, with Gregorian chant, with the bells and flourishes, for years - and not surprisingly they also often serve in Papal Masses both as acolytes and in the choir (needing little pre-Mass prep as their daily Mass in the seminary is virtually identical to the high Papal masses).

I myself have sung in the choir in St Peter's on about a dozen or so occasions - though unfortunately I never had the grace of serving as an acoylte (those lucky ones get to meet the Holy Father in the sacristy prior to Mass, see the Pieta up close, etc).

So the Novus Ordo can and is being celebrated with great dignity and pomp, in very moving and reverent ways around the globe. The real problem with the venacular languages (like English etc) isn't the obvious change of rubrics, or which way the priest faces...it's in the attitude of reverence and attention.

That's what scandalizes so many people - when priests or choirs or whomever acts as though this was merely a man-made "celebration" we can tinker with at whim - and not the supreme act of worship of God in Christ through the Holy Spirit.

When Mass is done with utmost care and preparation, reverence and awe, the result is holiness. When it is not - no matter what rite and rubrics - the result is loss of faith.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 18, 2004.

The new mass whether in latin or english is no match for the 1962 indult. wherever the 62 mass is celebrated it is more often than not, welcomed. why the discrimination against it? Let it live or die on an equal footing with the new mass.

-- Joe cranton (portman22@aol.com), October 18, 2004.