Mass Apostasy

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How is it possible that so many Christians will abandon their faith previous to Christ's return?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004

Answers

There are two major signs both Jesus and Paul told us to watch for, events that must happen before the second coming. One is the antichrist defiling the temple:

Matthew 24 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place

2 Thessalonians 2 that day shall not come except ... the man of sin be revealed ... who sitteth in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The other event is a huge apostasy from the faith:

Matthew 24And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2that day shall not come except there come a falling away first...

I'm curious about the latter.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004.


In SEP 2002, Christianity* was the largest major religion, boasting 2 billion people belonging to the faith. In second place was Islam at 1.3 billion.

3) Hinduism 900 million

4) Secular/Non-Religious/Atheist/Agnostic 850 million

I'm having a hard time nailing down accurate percentages of growth from these groups; everyone claims to be the fastest groin. But in most cases, the rate of increase of secular "faith" is close, and sometimes higher than Christianity.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004.


* includes Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004.

off... and change that to "fastest growing." I'm having troubles tonight

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004.

The pre-trib position accounts the Hell bound society of latter days to the removal of Christians from the Earth by rapture. But this position does not follow the words of Jesus and Paul that clearly indicate that those of the faith are loosing the love and hating one another. What kinds of things must occur for this to happen?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004.


Jesus said that many false prophets would arise. We've had (and had) false prophets recently. We all know the stories of cult recruiters evangelizing Christians, turning them to myths and lies. But these are on small scales (comparatively).

But these incidents certainly cannot add credit to the truth, the gospel testimony. Perhaps with the ever-increasing number of false prophets comes the spread of bad seed, which corrupts and of course, betrays. A victim of this certainly might become callous towards true religion.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004.


Can't forget that the actions and behaviors of Christians certainly serves as testimony to truth. I believe that one major reason people do not accept "God" is attributed to the hypocritical deeds of the church.

Off my mind now i'm thinking of date-setters,, those who set predictions for the Return of Christ, then reset them when Jesus does not come. Jehovah's Witnesses do this. They need to stop. They are humiliating God's word.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004.


Look at the stats, too. Christians run neck-to-neck when it comes to divorce, abortion, fornication. What is this, but a falling away from the truth? Most Christians have no idea what they believe and why they believe it.

If you look at Antiochus Epiphanes from the book of Macabees, and then take a gander at Nero, you have two very good precursors to the Anti-Christ, but they will pale in comparison to this one's evil. Will Christians be willing to die for their faith when this evil one comes on the scene? I shutter to think . . .

And remember, the Jews are still awaiting their messiah . . . a secular messiah!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), October 25, 2004.


I've always thought of the mass apostasy as a more visible thing. This makes it seem more sensational and obvious.

But Gail brings up an important point. The "mass apostasy" could be a more insidious and subtle apostasy of the heart. If the stats are true, what really sets Christians apart from the rest of the world and how can we claim we remain faithful to Jesus? Will Jesus find true faith in Him when he returns, or just a bunch of people who pay Him lip service by calling on his name but not really believing, as evidenced by their actions?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 26, 2004.


How many of you have read god's word.God's word,that book of mythology you call your bible,was written by man,therfore is inhierently flawed.Church is not the way to heaven.The bible is not the way to heaven.I wonder if any of you ever leave your church group and quit bothering people like me with your own self proclaimed holiness to try and get to know your own god.The bible is a gross raping of pagan beliefs that far outdate it.The Sumerians (the first recorded civilization,you know the cities of Ur from the bible right?) told of the daughter of thier supreme god (not mine now before you start flaming) decending into absu (hell,the abyss)and rising on the third day.Does this sound familiar?Open your mind for two seconds and you can see the hypcrisy that is the modern church.Before everybody freaks and says delete his post,He's evil I was raised in the episcopal church.My grandmother was church of god.Imagine being 5 and being told you were going to hell because your church was evil.My uncle was a c.o.g preacher.He molested his adopted daughter.It ain't just the catholics that touch children.No the real evil,the real antichrist,is what you like to proclaim as your holy church.Fanatics are not true believers.The church says your should be scared of going to hell right?I thought instead of being scared you should focus on a love of god?But then again who am I but an evil person that scares you much as your own god scares you.If you are not already repenting for looking at this evil maybe you will think for one second about who god really is and what he expects of you rather than questioning other people's faith all day long and further destroying more children and losing sight of what your god and supposed faith are supposed to be.

-- the antichrist (kinbrutal@hotmail.com), October 26, 2004.


Interesting view of things, antichrist.

I have actually made an attempt to rediscover those pagan beliefs. Is it mythology? I don't know. Could it be a precursor to our current beliefs? I don't know. I do know that man has a "thirst" for knowledge and God.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 26, 2004.


"maybe you will think for one second about who god really is and what he expects of you"

And just how would you propose to know this except through the Church??

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 26, 2004.


Uh, I'm gonna post this in the "Funniest Quotes" at the Catholic Forum, Luke:

I'm having a hard time nailing down accurate percentages of growth from these groups; everyone claims to be the fastest groin. But in most cases, the rate of increase of secular "faith" is close, and sometimes higher than Christianity.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 25, 2004.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 26, 2004.


Here is the link: At the Catholic Forum.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 26, 2004.


"... and change that to "fastest growing." I'm having troubles tonight "--Luke.

Yikes! I won't even ask what kind of troubles. I hop it isn't your "growing"; it could be a hernia. :)

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 26, 2004.



I did strain myself at work yesterday. This may or may not have caused the typo. I didn't notice the typo before I submitted that post. I then noticed that I left off the * explanation. I had to post again, only this time my formatting was messy. Going back just to make sure i did everything else correct, that's when i nocticed the groin, and then

Panic hit me...

like that feeling you get when you are awaken at 5:30am to the sound of pouring rain, only to remember that your car windows are still down. "What should I do?" I repeated this over and over until each letter danced before my eyes. "I'll just ignore it," I spoke this out loud. Nobody heard me.

Then there was a voice.

"This is a Christian sight." I turned to look! Before me was the spell check. Some words are spelled correctly, but are knot the write form.

In the end, I felt it was better to add the correction, just in case someone was unable to follow my thought. The troubles I spoke of were in regards to my formatting and grammar errors, not to the physical pain I found myself in.

The End

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), October 26, 2004.


Luke, you are TOOO FUNNY!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), October 26, 2004.

Whoops, I meant "you are TWO funny!"

-- gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), October 26, 2004.

Well, that's better than being "two fanny".

................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 27, 2004.


Will the real pope please stand up.

Pope Pius had promoted as his successor Cardinal Giuseppe Siri, ardent foe of Communism and defender of the true Faith, who would no doubt have followed through with Our Lady's wishes. At the conclave that followed the death of the old Pope, Siri was elected both on the third and fourth ballots, and took the name of Gregory XVII, a fact which is attested to even by documents recently declassified by the FBI, and cited in a recent book. This should finally be enough to convince the skeptics that the so-called "Siri Theory" is no theory at all, but an historical fact. It is the best explanation why for more than forty years under the "conciliar popes" the Church has been revolutionized, and the true Church is now in a state of eclipse.

-- Sharona (Sharonab@yahoo.com), November 20, 2004.


Concerning departures from the faith, God says in 1 Timothy 4:1-3, "1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth."

This certainly fits the Catholic Church...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 21, 2004.


Well, since the Catholic Church was the ONLY Church to which the faith was originally given, and the ONLY Church to hold and preach the faith for the next 1,500 years, it could not "depart from the faith" unless it departed from itself. I don't quite see how that would be possible, nor do i see any evidence that it happened; but I do see the obvious historical fact of thousands of conflicting manmade churches which have departed FROM the Church which received the fullness of truth from God. This fulfills the scriptural prophecy, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths". (2 Timothy 4:3-4) This forewarning of widespread heresy took over 1,500 years to become a reality, but a mere 450 years to spread division, fragmentation and doctrinal chaos throughout the earth, destroying within its own manmade tradition the stated will of God Himself, "that they all may be ONE".

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 21, 2004.

"Well, since the Catholic Church was the ONLY Church to which the faith was originally given, and the ONLY Church to hold and preach the faith for the next 1,500 years, it could not "depart from the faith" unless it departed from itself."

Actually, the Catholic Church never was a part of the true church of Christ and has long since departed from the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

"I don't quite see how that would be possible, nor do i see any evidence that it happened; but I do see the obvious historical fact of thousands of conflicting manmade churches which have departed FROM the Church which received the fullness of truth from God."

You don't see evidence because you have been blinded by the God of this world... for 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 states, "3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them."

You claim that you are a follower of Christ, but this is not true... There is no such thing as a Catholic Christian... There is only one way to become a Christian and I can assure you that Catholics are most certainly "not" Christians. They are taught a false gospel by the Pope of the Catholic Church and not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

"This fulfills the scriptural prophecy, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths". (2 Timothy 4:3-4)"

Yes and this fits the Catholic Church to a "T"... This corrupt Church most certainly does "not" endure sound doctrine and they have turned their ears aside from the truth many centuries ago...

"This forewarning of widespread heresy took over 1,500 years to become a reality, but a mere 450 years to spread division, fragmentation and doctrinal chaos throughout the earth, destroying within its own manmade tradition the stated will of God Himself, "that they all may be ONE"."

Actually, this started to take place right after the Apostles died for Paul said in Acts 20:29-30, "29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves."

You claim this has not happened to Catholicism (which is not the truth) and yet Catholics are the ones who have caused all of this division...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 21, 2004.


...and yet Catholics are the ones who have caused all of this division... - Kevin

You said that doctrinal division started to take place after the death of the Apostles. There was also doctrinal division when Arius and his followers made the claim that Christ wasn't God. There was the schism with the Orthodox Church in the eleventh century. Then the divisions occurring from the Reformed movement in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries and further fragmentation within the ranks of the Reformers. That's just the "highlights." Would you elaborate on how the Catholic Church is the cause of all this?

-- Andy S ("ASK3332004@YAHOO.COM"), November 21, 2004.


"Would you elaborate on how the Catholic Church is the cause of all this?"

What is a "Protestant" protesting???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 21, 2004.


Kevin, would you be more explicit on how the Catholic Church caused divisions of the Church throughout history?

With regard to the Protestant Reformation, my understanding is that what began as a protest against abuses within the Church turned into a demand to change doctrines of the Church. I'm not sure how that question answers my question though. How is the Catholic Church to blame for the divisions that occurred after the death of the Apostles? This would include the Arians and others, not just Protestants.

Are you saying that the Catholic Church's refusal to waver from Truth forced those who denied the Truth to remove themselves from the Church?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 21, 2004.


"Kevin, would you be more explicit on how the Catholic Church caused divisions of the Church throughout history?"

Sorry, I am not going to get into that debate...

"With regard to the Protestant Reformation, my understanding is that what began as a protest against abuses within the Church turned into a demand to change doctrines of the Church. I'm not sure how that question answers my question though."

Yes, they are "Protesting" the Catholic Church... not some other Church but the "Catholic Church"... that is why I made my statement above...

"How is the Catholic Church to blame for the divisions that occurred after the death of the Apostles? This would include the Arians and others, not just Protestants."

The Catholic Church has never been the true church of Christ.

"Are you saying that the Catholic Church's refusal to waver from Truth forced those who denied the Truth to remove themselves from the Church?"

What truth was the Catholic Church refusing to waver from???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 21, 2004.


Kevin, thanks for your reply.

Sorry, I am not going to get into that debate... - Kevin

I respect if you don't want to get into a debate whether the Catholic Church caused the divisions of Christianity throughout history. That claim you made struck me though. That's why I questioned it, wanting to understand why you believe that to be true. I'm not sure I have the time to get into it right now either, to tell you the truth. Maybe next time.

What truth was the Catholic Church refusing to waver from??? - Kevin

The full truth of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, as witnessed to and taught by the Apostles and staunchly guarded by their successors, the bishops of the Catholic Church. I say this because I believe it, not because I want to bait you or anything. I understand there's a lot in this statement that you disagree with, but you asked. I'll leave it at that since we've been through this before. Take care.

-- Andy S ("ask33232004@yahoo.com"), November 21, 2004.


Andy,

You wrote, "The full truth of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, as witnessed to and taught by the Apostles and staunchly guarded by their successors, the bishops of the Catholic Church."

What is the gospel of Christ as taught by the Apostles???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 22, 2004.


Same thing. The Apostles were the first bishops of the Holy Catholic Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 22, 2004.

"Same thing. The Apostles were the first bishops of the Holy Catholic Church."

Actually the Apostles were the first bishops over the church that Christ built. There is no mention of the Catholic Church in the Bible.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 24, 2004.


On the contrary, every mention of "the Church" found in the Bible is a mention of the Catholic Church, as plainly shown by history. We know from very early Church documents that the Church founded by Christ was calling itself the Holy Catholic Church by the end of the First Century, and has been calling itself that ever since. There was no other Christian Church on earth for the next 1,000+ years. That's historical fact, clearly documented and irrefutable. If you have to deny recorded history in order to cling to your beliefs, there is something seriously wrong with your beliefs. Truth can't conflict with truth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 24, 2004.

Of course the name Catholic Church is not there, Kevin. Jesus original Church was called The Way Acts 9, 19,24,26.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 24, 2004.


"On the contrary, every mention of "the Church" found in the Bible is a mention of the Catholic Church, as plainly shown by history."

Sorry, the Bible knows nothing nor mentions this corrupt Church...

"We know from very early Church documents that the Church founded by Christ was calling itself the Holy Catholic Church by the end of the First Century, and has been calling itself that ever since."

Men who abandoned the truth called their church Catholic however, none of the Apostles in the Bible ever called the church Catholic. The Catholic Church as we know it today has no resemblance to the churches we read about in the New Testament...

"There was no other Christian Church on earth for the next 1,000+ years. That's historical fact, clearly documented and irrefutable."

No that is not true... You can claim all you want that it is "historical fact" and "irrefutable" however, every time the gospel of Christ was preached, and someone obeyed the gospel, a new church sprang up and there was most likely no documented evidence. Just because this institution called the Catholic Church has been documented in history is no proof they are the true church of Christ.

"If you have to deny recorded history in order to cling to your beliefs, there is something seriously wrong with your beliefs."

That is merely Paul's opinion... He can claim all day long that if I don't believe history there is something wrong with my beliefs however this is not true... One does not have to believe history in order to become a Christian. It is the word of God that causes one to have faith, not faith in history nor faith in some so called institution as we have in the Catholic Church.

"Truth can't conflict with truth."

Men lie and the Catholic Church has proven through history that they do lie, and use false documents... So their so-called truth is nothing but a fabrication.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 25, 2004.


Not my piece but if even partly true there is real, real, trouble for the novus ordo future;

Newchurch's Modernistic Structures Stand Empty While "New Mass" Attendance Plummets Close to Single Digits JPII has called for a National Day of Prayer in the United States for more priests. The poor man shows again that he is out of touch with reality. More "priests" aren't going to help the New Order get out of the deep pit into which it is rapidly sinking, in the United States and elsewhere.

First of all, the New Order doesn't have "priests." It has presbyters. That is the official term that the New Order uses for its ministers, although most Novus Ordinarians, out of habit, incorrectly keep calling Novus Ordo presbyters "priests." What is the difference?

A presbyter in the New Order is literally an "elder" (that is what the Greek word essentially means) ordained to "preside over the assembly." Like a Protestant minister or the Masonic Worshipful Master, he sits in a big chair to oversee the goings-on. A priest in the traditional rite is ordained to offer sacrifice (that is what any "priest" literally does, even pagan priests), the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, on an altar, not a table.

Secondly, the New Order doesn't need any more presbyters. Attendance at the Novus Ordo service is dropping like a millstone into the sea, falling from 80% to 15% in just forty years. In Europe, attendance is already in the single digits, in many countries at less than 5%.

Thirdly, the New Order is closing churches right and left, in some cases up to a third of the total (in this round of closures, with more to come). The Newchurch bishops in the United States admit that the closings result from sinking attendance. Who needs more presbyters to serve a dying religion, the New Order?

Newchurch in the United States, for political reasons, like to throw out the figure of 63,000,000 "Catholics," which is picked up by an ignorant liberal press without analysis. Impartial figures from Gallup and the University of Chicago show that only about 10,000,000 of those "Catholics" ever see the inside of a church after their Baptism, unless they return to have one of those Novus Ordo "Hindu" funerals in white, with open coffin and automatic deification.

This is a counterfeit "crisis," just as the New Order is counterfeit Catholicism and the "New Mass" is a counterfeit Mass.

-- TC (Treadmill234@@south.com), November 26, 2004.


Again, just my experience TC, but I've seen both attendance and a thirst for the truth increase over the past 10 years at the parishes I've attended. What's very telling I think is the increase in attendance at daily Mass. Is this "proof" of truth? Not really, but evidence I think of a change in attitude among the faithful.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 27, 2004.

Andy; I don't doubt your personal experiences as some folks I kknow have the same results. The big picture though is a downward slope for the Church overall.

I don't relish the failings that happen. Too many people are losing the faith allong the way. However, the goings on in most churches are so bad that the people are losing the faith while stilll attending.

How do people hae the gall to come up to comminion in short shorts, bare midriff, etc. Bad enough they don't dress as they should, but immodesty is awful. The whole body language as they come from communion, (and everyone goes to communion) is total indifferintism.

Hands at sides, strolling in casual manner etc. Where I attend church people dress modestly and neatly. Not alll go to communion, although most do, but they kneel at the altar rail, while the priest moves along one by one. Whe they arrise they fold hands or hold hands across their chest and walk back to their seats in a slow dignified manner.

Even the kids genuflect every time they cross that middle aisle. I mean 5 and 6 year olds. The church is quiet and no one speaks after Mass until they get outside. Many stay to pray long after Mass.

When I have to attend a novus ordo baptism or wedding, the church is a hubbub of noise. No one notices the tabernacle, (usually in some corner) no one genuflects. It is a horrific sight to one used to the traditional ways.

Someone with me when we went there, said later when we came out, quote "I thought we walked into hell". It is just a shock.

-- TC (Treadmill234@@@south.com), November 27, 2004.


I believe this thread is appropriately named for this item.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The nation's Roman Catholic bishops voted Wednesday to join a new alliance that would be the broadest Christian group ever formed in the United States, linking American evangelicals and Catholics in an ecumenical organization for the first time. The alliance, called Christian Churches Together in the U.S.A., is set to kick off next year. It would include mainline Protestants, Orthodox Christians, and black and other minority churches. With about 67 million U.S. members, the Catholic Church would be the largest denomination.

Comment: All over the internet you can find articles about this amazing act of heresy by the U.S. Bishops in communion with John Paul II. The Novus Ordo Bishops have officially joined “Christian Churches Together in the U.S.A,” a Protestant communion which is part of the National Council of Churches. This act is definitely on a level with the incredible Joint Declaration with the Lutherans on Justification and John Paul II’s repeated acts of repudiating proselytizing the Eastern Schismatics.

With this agreement, the Novus Ordo Church in the U.S.A. has officially repudiated any claim to be the one true Church of Jesus Christ, and has admitted that it is just one of many heretical denominations. It also has officially recognized that the Protestant and schismatic sects which belong to “Christian Churches Together in the U.S.A” are part of the true Church of Jesus Christ. This is a fact, and anyone who denies this or tries to lessen the significance of this act is a heretical liar who is used by the devil. If the Novus Ordo Bishops did not officially recognize these (non-Catholic) heretical sects and denominations as part of the Christian Church, they would never join this heretical group.

-- TC (Treadmill234@@@south.com), November 27, 2004.


I was hearing something on the radio this summer. I can't recall details specifically, it was something that the SBC and another group (I thought It was Catholic) agreed to stop evangelizing one another.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 27, 2004.

I think that this statement by St. Pius X, might have some bearing in the Church's problems today.

"...the great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which,under the pretext of freedom and human dignity, would bring back to the world (if such a Church could overcome) the reign of legalized cunning and force, and the oppression of the weak, and of all those who toil and suffer." --Pope Saint Pius X, "Our Apostolic Mandate," 1910

-- Ethan (Pleasantvilletutor@msn.com), November 27, 2004.


The nation's Roman Catholic bishops voted Wednesday to join a new alliance that would be the broadest Christian group ever formed in the United States, linking American evangelicals and Catholics in an ecumenical organization for the first time. -TC

I'll have to look this up. Thanks. But isn't this kind of thing like the National Council of Churches, more of a political alliance rather than a merging of churches and doctrine?

I can't recall details specifically, it was something that the SBC and another group (I thought It was Catholic) agreed to stop evangelizing one another. - Luke

Do you have the details on what they mean by "stop evangelizing each other"? I don't see that a statement like that has any real meaning. For example, would they consider this forum and others like it to be "evangelizing each other"? Practically speaking, it could only mean that the leaders of the churches in the SBC agree to discourage their flocks from leaving religious tracts on cars in other church's parking lots. Or something along those lines.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 28, 2004.


Andy;

If we stop evangelizing, we ignore the direct order of Our Lord to go out and preach the gospel to all nations. Ignoring is something the Church has been doing sinc V2. After that we lost so many religious that we cannot even evangelize ourselves.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), November 29, 2004.


If we stop evangelizing, we ignore the direct order of Our Lord to go out and preach the gospel to all nations -TC

You're right TC! That's why I wonder how anybody can quantify the statement "not to evangelize each other". I'm sure Protestants would have problems with that too.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 29, 2004.


here is another news item that just shows this fellow Joseph that he is disalussioned about his thinking on the billion loyal catholics. I know a hundred facts won't change him but here it is anyway.

Could Anything Be More Fitting On the 35th Anniversary of the "New Mass"? Novus Ordo temples are closing down all over the world, not just in Boston, New York, St. Louis, and other USA cities. Attendance at the Novus Ordo Protestant-Masonic-Pagan service has plummeted so far that churches are closing right and left. There is no "presbyter" shortage. The number of Novus Ordo presbyters is simply declining to match the steep decline in attendance.

Now it has been announced that a London church will be converted into a circus. We suppose one could get all hot and bothered about this sacrilege, but it seems quite appropriate. Newchurch is not Catholic; it's not even religious. It has gone far beyond sacrilege. It is now simply a joke. People snigger at the pope, who has been incompetent to govern the Church. People snigger at the bishops, who couldn't find Catholic doctrine and morality with a flashlight.

St. Paul's Church, an historic Gothic church opened in 1794, will become Circus Circomedia. The circus will install a full-scale flying trapeze rig, a sprung dance floor, tumble runs, and a cafe. Said one official: "Our mission is to restore our churches to the heart of their communities." And how do you do that? Take an historic Catholic church and turn it into a circus!

The innovations of the invalid and unCatholic "New Mass" have cooled down considerably in the last 35 years (November 30, 1969, was the 35th anniversary of the "New Mass"). Now the circus has become "a shining example of how innovative new schemes can bring new life." And you thought circuses were dying. It is the New Order that is dying.

-- TC (hummer@@rt567.com), November 30, 2004.


GALLUP POLLS: MASS ATTENDANCE IN THE UNITED STATES

According primarily to Gallup Polls in various years, Sunday Mass attendance among Catholics in the United States has sunk by 400% since Vatican II. When asked whether they had attended Mass within the past week, the following percentage of Catholics answered yes:

1958: 74% 1965: 71%, after the Mass was allowed to be said in the vulgar tongues 1968: 65%, after the very words of Consecration were changed 1969: 63%, when the Novus Ordo Worship Service was first announced 1970: 60%, when the Novus Ordo Worship Service was introduced 1971: 50%, after one year of exclusive Novus Ordo worship services 1988: 48% 1993: 25% 1995: 22% 1999: 19%, after twenty years of exclusive Novus Ordo worship services 2001: 17%

I looked these numbers up to show that the N.O. church is disappearing. The traditionals will some day pass them in attendance. Oh yes, N.O. will still hold the real estate, but they will not hold the faithful.

Lincoln said "you can't fool all of the people all of the time"

-- TC (Treadmill234@@south.com), November 30, 2004.


I also think TC, that there are other factors, not just the change in the liturgy(10% decline).

-The Catholic Church went ecumenical, thus diluting its supremacy. (5% decline) -The Church now competes against consumerism. a more powerful enemy than communism. People work longer hours to attain goods they desire. (20 % decline)

-Secularism (most students attend public schools which offer other theories about the universe and human existence.) (10%)

-competition against other churches and religions(10%). The church had a monopoly in Europe for 1600 years and Latin America for 500 years. Now Brazil-10% others, Guatemala 25% others, Mexico 7%,Chile 15%, Peru 9%,...USA 76% others.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 30, 2004.


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