My boyfriend and I are considering marriage. Some of his family members are muslim, but he is not. He celebrates Ramadan, but other than that does not consider himself muslim and is uncertian if he wishes to become a practicing muslim or not. In order to better understad one another I have been doing a lot of reading about the muslim faith and history so as to better answer his questions, which he has asked some. As a result he had agreed with no objection to read some books about Christianity so as to better understand me as well. We have talked much about what we would do about raising children. He has expressed to me that he understands faith is very special to me, much more special to me than it is to him (at this point in time) and has agreed that I may baptize and raise our children Catholic. I know I still have a lot of praying and thinking to do but I am uncertian as to if this is even an acceptable marrige in the catholic faith. i myself am not yet catholic, officially. I was raised Episcopal they gradually over the past few years had become a kind of 5 point calvinist and eventually my heart was softened toward the catholic faith and I discovered its truth. However there is still much I am trying to figure out as you can see. PLEASE HELP. any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Blessings, Anna Eltgroth

-- Anna Joy Eltgroth (ajmusicnut@yahoo.com), November 05, 2004

Answers

Response to Can I marry a man considering becoming a muslim if he agrees that our children should be catholic?

Dear Anna,

Please give the matter a lot of prayer and check out these threads:

I am a Catholic female single parent can I marry a Muslim man?

Vatican Warns Catholics Against Marrying Muslims

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), November 05, 2004.

Response to Can I marry a man considering becoming a muslim if he agrees that our children should be catholic?

i think ppl should start talking about religion to children when they're old enough to understand otherwise they could interpret so many things wrong(i speak out of experience) i'm not saying u shouldn't teach them from early the right morale but more in the way about god and stuff... we also don't give sexual education to a 6 year olds right:)? and baptising babies is wrong... baptising is when u declare urslef as a christian confirm ur faith in jesus who can babies do that lol? ppl should make that descision by themselves when they're old enough to choose like jesus and all the other christians in his time did...

-- nathan de winter (de_nathan_winter@msn.com), November 05, 2004.

Response to Can I marry a man considering becoming a muslim if he agrees that our children should be catholic?

A person doesn't suddenly become "old enough to understand". A small child can understand almost anything at a certain level, and the truth about God, His love for us, His Church, and salvation should be presented to them at their own level of comprehension from a very early age. Likewise, they begin to form ideas about male-female relationahips at an early age, and their questions (where do babies come from?) should be answered honestly, at their level of understanding.

As for baptizing babies, this has been the practice of the Christian Church from the beginning. The Bible tells us that whole families - parents, and all the children - were commonly baptized together in Apostolic times. It also tells us that one cannot enter the Kingdom without baptism, and that the kingdom belongs to little children. Obviously then, little children, to whom the Kingdom belongs, could not be excluded from that without which one cannot enter the Kingdom, namely Baptism. The writings of the earliest Church Fathers also describe the baptism of infants as a normal practice of Christianity. What you need to question Nathan, is by what authority your manmade church forbids what the original Christian Church has been doing for 20 centuries. Such modern traditions of men cannot replace the beliefs of true Christianity, and still pretend to be Christian.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 05, 2004.

Response to Can I marry a man considering becoming a muslim if he agrees that our children should be catholic?

'What you need to question Nathan, is by what authority your manmade church forbids what the original Christian Church has been doing for 20 centuries'

first about this paul the original christian church??? who executed so many 'heretics' the crosswars... the 'pay and get ur ticket to heaven'-thing... the wars against the protestants... the childrenrapists... who were using god's and jesus's name to kill,manipulate,start wars,and get big money who forbid the priests to get married and have children,just cos of one sentence they took out of the context of apostol paul when he said it was just beter to don't i mean this is the greatest most beautiful thing in whole god's creation then the statues in the church... strictly against the bible...but no-one cares? and then some sick 90-year old guy who's the leader of all this and who u call the pope or the 'holy father'... i mean where does this say in the bible? no one ever talked about a pope in the bible...but no one cares... ok back to the baptising thing: baptising won't get u to heaven... what about all the good ppl before jesus,the good ppl now who never heard of jesus,or the good ppl that just can't believe in him cos they have grown up with some other religion and believe in that or just simply can't believe it.... they all gonna rot in hell? baptising little babies is totally ridicoules lol i mean how can they choose their faith when they even don't know how to talk? they have to make that choise by themselves when they are old enough to know in what they believe it's like u give ur baby a cap of the yankees and then say he's a fan...

'A person doesn't suddenly become "old enough to understand". A small child can understand almost anything at a certain level'

many grown ups even don't understand the bible good like u for example...convinced that u'll go to hell without baptising... i speak out of experience i said... children can get many things wrong... for example:thinking that all non-christians are evil,put all their trust in god when they have to deal with something and then think it will be ok and then when it works out the wrong way lose their faith,get obsessed with it and see almost anything as a sin,...etc they just believe it cos u tell them,cos ur their parent,cos they love u and they trust u they can't rationalize it what kind of faith is that?

-- nathan de winter (de_nathan_winter@msn.com), November 06, 2004.

Response to Can I marry a man considering becoming a muslim if he agrees that our children should be catholic?

Dear Nathan de Winter,

Dear "de_nathan_winter", I just wished to write and thank you for your imput into my question. i, as a former protestand understand where you are comming from, thought I think like many protestants, your veiw of the catholic church as well as its teaching is a bit misguided. Many things you sad I can totally agree with, becuase even a catholic (or in my case, a catholic to be) can admit that (for example) Idol worship is wrong and always has been. Some Catholics have been never been instructed in the fullness of their faith which is truely a shame, and that we have much we can learn from our protestant brothers and sisters, for example your zeal for the lord, which i have likewise known and still see in countless protestant friends, is truly to be admired. Blessings, Anna E.

-- Anna Joy Eltgroth (ajmusicnut@yahoo.com), November 06, 2004.

Response to Can I marry a man considering becoming a muslim if he agrees that our children should be catholic?

the original christian church??? who executed so many 'heretics' the crosswars...

are you aware of the fact that these heretics you refer to (from the first inquisition, i presume, were opposed to human reproduction (ie, all human activity to reproduce was sinful and people who did so should be killed)? were you aware that these heretics were forming an army? were you aware that these heretics had plotted to assasinate the pope and several of the kings of the time? were you aware that it wasnt just the church who wanted their terrorist and militant organization taken apart? apparently not, or you wouldnt spout such ignorant phrases.

the 'pay and get ur ticket to heaven'-thing...

you are ignorant if that is what you think of an indulgence. an indulgence does not buy anyone an entrance into heaven. we are saved on our judgement. an indulgence lessens the amount of time that one must spend in purgatory before entrance to heaven, but unless one is judged worthy, an indulgence does no good.

the wars against the protestants...

really? you, apparently, are aware of history that no catholic or secular historian knows anything about. name this war. crusades? nope, those were against muslim invaders. inquisition? nope, first not a war, and second most were against the kathars, and third, only the spanish inquisition could objectively be judged as "against the protestants" and THAT wasnt even started by the church but rather by the spanish government in conjunction with a few unsanctioned helps from bishops acting outside their abilities granted by the church.

the childrenrapists...

really? how do you reconcile that the priesthood has a lower percentage of child molestors than any other organization of people in the world... in fact, much lower than the average for the society. What does that mean to you? it means that your pastors are more likely to molest a child than a priest. further, im sure you must recognize the difference between renegade sinners invading the church to do satans work, and true church action... if you dont, then say so now, because it wouldnt be worth continuing dialogue with you if you are blind.

who forbid the priests to get married and have children,just cos of one sentence they took out of the context of apostol paul when he said it was just beter to don't

actually, the priestly celebacy is not a doctrine, and not expressly declared in the bible. it is a discipline which is a great boon to the church. a priest who takes confessions would have something to hide from his wife, since he is sworn to confidence with the confessing member. also, the priest's attention would be divided between his flock and his family. Not even to mention a single priest looking to get married... how would that seem to you to find your priest hitting on a woman in a bar? thus, the discipline of celebate priesthood. any pope can change that at any time, but its good practice for the good of the church.

i mean this is the greatest most beautiful thing in whole god's creation

you mean to tell me that the greatest most beautiful thing in God's creation is MARRAIGE? you must be dillusional. how about God's sacrifice for our sins? how about the birth of an innocent and loving child? how about the salvation of a sinner? how about the very fact that despite your sins you can be forgiven and saved? marraige is a beautiful thing, but it is certainly not necessary nor is it the "most beautiful thing" God ever did for us.

then the statues in the church... strictly against the bible...but no-one cares?

by all means, show me where having a reminder of Christ, or of one of His servants, is against the word of the bible... you CAN'T. dont bother producing some asinine verse on idolotry, because you dont understand what truly constitutes idolotry, much less true worship. i recommend you take a class called philosophy of religion so that you can begin to understand the nature of what worship even is... in fact, tell your pastor to take it too, since he is probably the one who filled you with these lies and misconceptions of the nature of God and your existance and worship.

and then some sick 90-year old guy who's the leader of all this and who u call the pope or the 'holy father'... i mean where does this say in the bible?

the pope is the leader of the church. he is a shepard for men, working for the Master of the house of God. He is ninety because he is old, but he is far from any "sick 90 year old guy." first, he isnt 90, second, parkinsons disease does not attack the clarity of the mind (and his is a very devout and religiously educated mind), third he is ordained successor of Peter, first among servants and apostles.

no one ever talked about a pope in the bible...but no one cares...

more than a billion people, as catholics, care. YOU obviously care. but YOU obviously havent read the gospel of mathew, or you would have read about where Christ named simon the rock and established him not only as the greatest among the disciples but as the first pope in a succession which has not ended since that time. read your bible before you criticize... repeatedly rebuking these ignorant claims gets annoying.

baptising won't get u to heaven...

here you are actually right, being baptised won't necessarily get "u" into heaven... however, the bible tells us that NOT being baptized WILL prevent you from getting into heaven. read: John 3:5 - Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

what about all the good ppl before jesus,the good ppl now who never heard of jesus,or the good ppl that just can't believe in him cos they have grown up with some other religion and believe in that or just simply can't believe it.... they all gonna rot in hell?

obviously you are unfamiliar with the catholic teaching of baptism by desire. we trust that in their desire to do that which is pleasing to God, that they were purged of their stain of sin by their desire to be in communion to God, the selfsame desire which manifests itself today in the desire to be baptised into the church.

baptising little babies is totally ridicoules lol i mean how can they choose their faith when they even don't know how to talk?

you don't think much of God, do you? why do you think God created a being who doesnt naturally desire to worship God? do you think God was incapable of creating us well enough that we would want to follow him? no. disobedience from God is a learned behavior taught in developement, the devotion to God is written on the hearts of all men and women from the moment they are concieved. This perfect devotion is the reason that baptising a baby makes perfect sense, what other time can we be fully devoted to God than when we are young and untainted by satan's hold on this world?

it's like u give ur baby a cap of the yankees and then say he's a fan...

its amazing how many protestants liken their faith to sports... a bunch of predominantly immoral overpayed players doing asinine things... if thats how you think of religion, you must not be very impressed by your pastors.

many grown ups even don't understand the bible good like u for example...

when you speak to Paul M, boy, you are speaking to a deacon of the church... a man who LIVES the bible. literally, Paul M eats, drinks, and sleeps bible knowledge. That man knows more about the bible in his little pinky than you'll probably ever be blessed to know in your life. His devotion to the church more than probably matches and defeats any one of your pastors. The man is a trove of catholic knowledge, which is what this forum is based on... and you had best to keep that in mind if you plan on staying here for a protracted amount of time. insolent and deliberately arrogant protestants have been banned before.

convinced that u'll go to hell without baptising...

i have already shown you where Jesus himself told you you are wrong... now we'll see if you are man enough to realize your error.

children can get many things wrong... for example:thinking that all non-christians are evil, put all their trust in god when they have to deal with something and then think it will be ok and then when it works out the wrong way lose their faith, get obsessed with it and see almost anything as a sin

these behaviors are LEARNED behaviors, not inherent ones given by God. i wonder if you truly believe that at birth a child has these traits... that God failed us when he created us. surely you must understand the ramifications of your statements which are merely blathering condemnation of Gods creation. at any rate, GOOD parents who are TRULY catholic wouldnt teach their to behave in such a manner anyway.

they just believe it cos u tell them,cos ur their parent,cos they love u and they trust u they can't rationalize it what kind of faith is that?

it is blind faith, which is the faith that Jesus commends:

Matthew 18:3 - and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:4 - Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

are you like the child??? do you have that perfect devotion which we are born with? or do you persist in calling God's creation flawed to the core and Jesus a liar? Doubting thomas, remember, was never as justified as the children who believed without needing to see. what are you... doubting thomas or beloved child?

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 06, 2004.

moderators

Please remove the above post by Nathan De Winter as it contains nothing of value, multiple personal attacks, and repeated violation of the forum rules against foul language.

Thanks,

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 08, 2004.

lol

paul h:

1)u are talking about things that never happend and u obviously don't know anything about history and if the inquisition,the crusades,the contrareformation...etc were so good,why did the vatican then in 1995 apologies for that?

2)litlle babies who believe in god lol that is impossible

3)the verses u mentioned u don't understand, jesus wants us to be innocent and pure-hearted like children ,and not did never refer to a child's faith

4)little children only believe in religions in particular cos their parents tell them,not cos they are convinced by themselves in that way,they are too young to rationalize that. this is not faith to me,this is some kind of brainwashing-thing and many ppl lose this faith when they grow up and start thinking for themselves and start forming new idea's

5)cos of all this above i mentioned,it speaks for itself that i am against baptising little babies cos it is meaningless only ppl who are sure that they want to follow christ and trully believe in him should get baptised

6)that jesus said simon would be the rock on which he would build his chruch, has nothing to do with the pope, jesus meant that he counted on simon would to spread jesus's idea's

7)the greatest and most beautiful thing in god's creation is LOVE,not marriage,the new child that is born is cos of love,the forgiveness of our sins is cos of love,

8)the statues in the chruch are wrong and against god's teaching (2nd command)

9)about the behaviours: children could understand many things wrong,especially if their whole church has it wrong! there is a general lack of knowledge of the bible

-- nathan de winter (de_nathan_winter@hotmail.com), November 08, 2004.

> "litlle babies who believe in god lol that is impossible"

A: Yes it is impossible - and also irrelevant. Throughout the history of Christianity, Baptism has been recognized as an initial reception of grace which makes a person a child of God, a member of God's family (the Church), and an heir of heaven. It is analygous to natural birth. Birth introduces a child into a family, with all the rights which membership inn that family implies. The child has no clue what is going on, but that doesn't make him/her any less a member of the family. That's why in the early Church entire families, from the oldest to the youngest members, were baptized together when the family became Christian. The manmade tradition of baptism as a mere gesture we make to God is only a few hundred years old, and is totally inadequate and completely out of line with Scripture and the other teaching of God's Church from the beginning/

> "the verses u mentioned u don't understand, jesus wants us to be innocent and pure-hearted like children ,and not did never refer to a child's faith"

A: Yes, Jesus says (1) that Baptism is essential to enter the Kingdom; (2) that little children are in possession of the Kingdom; (3) that we must become like little children if we want to enter the Kingdom. If one must become "like a little child" to be baptized into the Kingdom, then it should be immediately obvious that no-one is more qualified for Baptism than one who actually IS a little child. The rest of us must strive for that degree of innocence. Little children already have it!

> "little children only believe in religions in particular cos their parents tell them,not cos they are convinced by themselves in that way,they are too young to rationalize that. this is not faith to me,this is some kind of brainwashing- thing and many ppl lose this faith when they grow up and start thinking for themselves and start forming new idea's"

A: Many people do lose their faith when the influences of the world overwhelm them - just as Jesus predicted in the parable of the sower. However, those who are rooted in their faith from the earliest moments of their lives are least likely to succumb to such influences. Saying that a small child's faith isn't real faith is like saying that learning to count to ten isn't real learning. Not only is it real learning, but it is an essential step toward deeper learning. Growth in faith works the same way. The elementary level of faith which a small child can profess is very real, and without it he/she cannot progress to a deeper level of faith and understanding. > "cos of all this above i mentioned,it speaks for itself that i am against baptising little babies cos it is meaningless only ppl who are sure that they want to follow christ and trully believe in him should get baptised"

A: As I said, this reversed notion of Baptism is a modern deviation from true Christian doctrine. Baptism makes us eligible for entrance into the Kingdom, and members of the Body of Christ. It provides the initial sanctifying grace and our introduction into the sacramental life of the Church, which enables us to live in the Kingdom as He intends us to live in it.

> "that jesus said simon would be the rock on which he would build his chruch, has nothing to do with the pope, jesus meant that he counted on simon would to spread jesus's idea's"

A: Nonsense! Jesus intended ALL the disciples to spread His teachings. There would be no reason to single out Simon in that regard. Jesus realized that the Church could not grow and prosper without a recognized central authority. He knew that lack of authority would inevitably lead to division and fragmentation, and loss of truth. Therefore He gave to Simon ALONE the "keys to the kingdom", which is the universal symbol of supreme authority.

> "the statues in the chruch are wrong and against god's teaching (2nd command)"

A: 2nd Commandment?? Maybe YOUR 2nd commandment says "Thou shalt not make statues", but the BIBLICAL 2nd commandment forbids the WORSHIP of false "gods". Surely you aren't naive enough to think that Catholics WORSHIP marble and plaster?? Is making a statue equivalent to WORSHIPPING it? Is the Lincoln Memorial a pagan shrine? Do you have likenesses of your family members on your wall at home? In your wallet? Do you WORSHIP them? If you do, then you are practicing idolatry, and you better take a hard look at the 2nd Commandment. But if you only use those likenesses to remind yourself of people who are important to you, and whose efforts have enriched your life - as Catholics do with pictures and statues of great Christians who have been instrumental in the building of our Church - then the 2nd Commandment has no relevance to the situation at all.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 08, 2004.

""""Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.""""

-- nathan de winter (de_nathan_winter@hotmail.com), November 08, 2004.

Yes, I am familar with the above Scripture, which is obviously an admonition against idolatry, not statuary! You see the part about "bowing down to them" and "serving them"? That's what the passage is about. It makes no sense whatsoever to pick out the opening verse of the passage and try to make it the whole message. The first verse makes no sense at all unless it is joined to the following verse. Then you have the complete message. We are not to make AND WORSHIP graven images.

Making a graven image is not equal to worshipping it. That should be obvious from the various accounts in Scripture where God COMMANDED the making of graven images! Was He contradicting Himself? ...

"Then the LORD said to Moses, "Thou shalt fashion a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live. And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he was healed". (Numbers 21:8-9)

"Thou shalt make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat". (Exodus 25:18)

"Then they said, "What shall be the guilt offering which we shall return to the Lord?" And they said, "Five golden tumors and five golden mice according to the number of the lords of the Philistines, for one plague was on all of you and on your lords ... They put the ark of the LORD on the cart, and the box with the golden mice and the golden likenesses of their tumors." ( Samuel 6:4,11)

In these cases, God fully approved, or even directly commanded the making of graven images, to be used for His honor and glory - not to be worshipped in His place. Catholics are well aware of the legitimate use of such images. They draw us to God. They do not take His place. They are not allowed to become idols, for the Church specifically forbids idolatry in all its forms.

Incidentally, does your church have a graven image of a cross either inside it or on top of it? It's an usual Protestant church that doesn't. Do any of your members wear graven images of crosses around their necks? Or pinned to their collar? My boss, a Baptist, does. But he certainly doesn't worship such images in place of God, any more than Catholics do.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 08, 2004.

u are talking about things that never happend and u obviously don't know anything about history and if the inquisition,the crusades,the contrareformation...etc were so good,why did the vatican then in 1995 apologies for that?

i never said that all inquisitions were good, and niether did i mention the crusades at all. The FIRST inquisition was needed, as was the FIRST crusade (or perhaps you would rather be a muslim, because the first crusade prevented the destruction of western culture in europe by muslim invasion). The apology in 1995, which is NOT dogmatic and I'm not certain should ever have been made, was for those acts which followed the originals, which were NOT good. in fact, i openly noted that the spanish inquisition was not good. BUT since you were refering to the inquisition of the original church, i thought that i would constrain discussion to that topic and figure that you were educated enough to know the difference between the different inquisitions.

2)litlle babies who believe in god lol that is impossible

i'm going to have to disagree with paul m and say no, not impossible at all. Look at EVERY culture in the world. EVERY single one has SOME form of religion, regardless of whether or not it had contact with Christianity. you know what that speaks to??? it means that religious devotion to God, in nature not in name, is written on the hearts of men from the moment they are born. Either you recognize that God created us with a nature of worship to the divine, or you call God's creation flawed (and therefore God flawed). take your pick...

3)the verses u mentioned u don't understand, jesus wants us to be innocent and pure-hearted like children ,and not did never refer to a child's faith

WHAT?!?! he talks about unquestioning faith RIGHT AFTER dealing with Thomas. How in the world do you think he ISNT talking about the faith of children??? its not that they are innocent and pure- hearted, though they are... its that they alone can have perfect and unquestioning faith in something. even you have stated as much (ie~they dont question their parents).

4)little children only believe in religions in particular cos their parents tell them,not cos they are convinced by themselves in that way,they are too young to rationalize that.

again, you would know if you read your bible that Jesus repeatedly makes clear that faith is not something which needs rationalization. Do you think that a mentally handicapped person who can never intellectually pass the age of four is damned by God? NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!! Faith is NOT a rationalized instrument, it is a belief beyond rationalization. Even great philosophers will admit that faith is what bridges the minute gap between preponderance of evidence and belief... and the faith of a child is (necessarily) HUGE in order to bridge that gap because, as you say, they dont have the faculty to understand the preponderance of evidence.

this is not faith to me,this is some kind of brainwashing-thing and many ppl lose this faith when they grow up and start thinking for themselves and start forming new idea's

again, the very fact that every single culture in history has recognized the simple fact that God exists is enough proof to show you are wrong. It's not thinking for oneself that makes a person fall away from the faith, otherwise religion would have died out of the world a long time ago, since everyone who was rational (almost all adults) would have left the church. In fact, it is listening to the whispers of Satan that drags us away from faith. We are born with divinely inspired faith which is corrupted by our experience, not by our rational thought.

i am against baptising little babies cos it is meaningless

meaningless to YOU because you have fallen away from the church. No matter. I hate to tell you this, you are not the successor to Peter and therefore what you are against has little relevance does it?

6)that jesus said simon would be the rock on which he would build his chruch, has nothing to do with the pope, jesus meant that he counted on simon would to spread jesus's idea's

Hogwash and spit. Jesus said "YOU ARE ROCK AND ON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH." He said BUILD MY CHURCH. i would think that anyone who could read would understand what it means to say that you are going to build your church ON someone. its not 'spreading ideas,' its being a foundation for the church. stop skimming your bible and READ!!!

the greatest and most beautiful thing in god's creation is LOVE,not marriage,the new child that is born is cos of love,the forgiveness of our sins is cos of love,

AH, now, see, thats more like it. but you didnt say love, you said that the greatest and most beautiful thing in God's creation was marraige. If we're going to have intellectual discussion here, i would ask that you keep your flip-flopping on what you say to a minimum.

8)the statues in the chruch are wrong and against god's teaching (2nd command)

here, i think paul m has nearly answered your question, which i already know your answer to. suffice it to say that, as i said already, most protestants don't understand the nature of worship enough to know the difference between prayer and worship. Catholics don't worship statues, we are reminded of the saintly lives served in devotion to God, and of God Himself, because of them.

9)about the behaviours: children could understand many things wrong,especially if their whole church has it wrong! there is a general lack of knowledge of the bible

nobody ever notes sufficient knowledge of the bible as necessary for salvation. the requirements of salvation: rebirth by baptism and spirit, faith, a life of works according to the faith, and eat and drink of the Flesh and Blood of Christ.

i know what you mean about children believing lies too, imagine all those baptist children being told that they don't have real faith because they are still too stupid to understand. i'll tell you one thing, when my niece (four years old) sings songs from church and talks about Jesus, there is no question in my mind of whos faith is more unquestioning and greater between the two of us. If that makes me stupid too, then so be it.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 08, 2004.

no comment... you're a hopeless case paul h...

-- nathan de winter (de_nathan_winter@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

TO NATHAN AND PAUL H:

1/the things about the inquisition and the heretics and the crusade,nathan is totally right

no one ever wanted to assinate a pope in the middles ages,back then the bible was red in latin to the ppl so nobody could know what it's all about,the catholic church exucuted thousands of ppl who they thought were not good christians,who were condiderd as witches and heretics without a good reason

the caothlic chruch was selling papers on which said that all your sins are forgiven,they were using god's name to start wars(the crusades) and did not teach anything about the bible, they just used it as a tool to manipulate and control

martin luther saw all this and he knew that this was totally anti- christian and he started a new religion that will teach christianity instead of using it as a tool to get money and manipulate

the catholic chruch saw this and they knew that they will lose their authority and that the ppl won't trust them so they started the contra-reformation, were thousands of innocent ppl were killed for no reason

paul h,you should maybe learn something about history before posting about it

2/i don't know what is in the mind of a baby lol,but if babies believe in god,why then kids who never been thought about any religion don't believe and don't ask questions about god...etc....

3/i know what you mean paul and i'd agree with you if we wouldn't live in a world full of lies and hate and manipulation so that we don't know anymore who to believe and who not, so i think it is good to rationalize things in general before we believe it and so religion

4/nathan is right about this,children do only believe cos their parents tell them,they are to young to make up their own mind about it

5/in some cases it is so as nathan said,but also some ppl don't lose their faith but rediscover it

6/true,baptising babies is meaningless,ppl started doing this cos many babies died after they were born and they tought they would go to hell unbaptised...

you sould get baptised when you trully know that you want to be a christian and that you want to live like one

7/nathan didn't say marriage, but he said a relationship between a man and a women

i agree with you love is the most beautiful thing in the world

but my opinion is that love between a man and a women is not better or stronger but just a little more special than the other kinds of love

8/i don't really know...

but many catholics do bow down to these statues...

9/yes children could understand many stuff wrong because many grown ups understand also many things wrong

you shouldn't plant a religion in a child's head just because you think it is the right religion

give them the freedom so that they can make out by theirselves in what they want to believe

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

""you shouldn't plant a religion in a child's head just because you think it is the right religion ""

true

i despise this

-- sdqa (sqda@sdqa.com), November 10, 2004.

Should you "plant" principles of morality in your child's head just because you believe they are the right ones? Should you "plant" health habits in the mind of a child, just because you think they are the right ones? Should you teach your child acceptable social behavior just because you think it is right? Should you send your child to a particular school just because you think it is the right one? Or should you just let your child wander aimlessly through life, to end up ignorant, amoral, unhealthy, socially inept, and a member of a false religion? If you do the latter you will have to answer to God for your failure as a parent.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 10, 2004.

yeah

all christians thinks that their religion is the only right

how are you so sure?

what if the jews are right and jesus ins't ur messiah?

what if the buddhists and the hindoes are right and we all are going to get reincarnated?

what if the muslims are right?

what if the taoists are right?

why not to live all options open to your kid and let him choose by himself in what he wants to believe

religion ain't moral,religion is a certain view on certain things in life and certain things after this life and about our origin and destination

all christians think that they religion is the only right one and all time try to convert people with a different religion

this really pisses me off

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), November 10, 2004.

why not to live all options open to your kid and let him choose by himself in what he wants to believe

Why don't you just let your kid be raised by wolves? How are you sure that's not right?

all christians think that they religion is the only right one and all time try to convert people with a different religion

And here you are trying to convert everyone to your ideas.

this really pisses me off

I hear ya! Btw, what's with all of the potty mouths lately?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 10, 2004.

> all christians thinks that their religion is the only right - how are you so sure?

A: God Himself came to earth to found a Church. One Church for all mankind. What God does is, by definition, right. What men do can also be right, but not when it conflicts with what God has done.

> what if the jews are right and jesus ins't ur messiah?

A: God has said that Jesus is the Messiah of all mankind.

> what if the buddhists and the hindoes are right and we all are going to get reincarnated?

A: God has said that men die once, and are then judged. Therefore

> why not to live all options open to your kid and let him choose by himself in what he wants to believe

A: Because failing to teach my children what I know to be the truth would be irresponsible and unloving, and I would have to answer to God for such a failure on my part.

> religion ain't moral,religion is a certain view on certain things in life and certain things after this life and about our origin and destination

A: That's a definition of philosophy, not religion. Of course, it's an accurate depiction of some religions, but that simply indicates that such religions are really only philosophies in disguise. True religion means a relationship with God, and a life patterned on His revealed will - which includes morality.

> all christians think that they religion is the only right one and all time try to convert people with a different religion

A: They have no choice. God, who founded the Church, commanded it to go forth and make disciples of all peoples.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 10, 2004.

""> all christians think that they religion is the only right one and all time try to convert people with a different religion

A: They have no choice. God, who founded the Church, commanded it to go forth and make disciples of all peoples. ""

yeah...sure

your church judges people not based on their deeds,but on their faith and religion

this is called DISCRMINATION

and this is wrong

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), November 10, 2004.

your church judges people not based on their deeds,but on their faith and religion

HAHAHAHA, have you noticed that this is a CATHOLIC forum... arent non catholics supposed to accuse us of paying too much attention to peoples deeds?

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 10, 2004.

1/the things about the inquisition and the heretics and the crusade,nathan is totally right

unless you consider that he doesnt understand the difference between the five different main inquisitions which have been held.

no one ever wanted to assinate a pope in the middles ages

are you crazy or ignorant? there have been people who wanted to assasinate the pope in every era. you might as well say something like no one has ever tried to assasinate this pope, because you'd be equally wrong with such an assertion. At the same time, let me reiterate, loudly, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE MIDDLE AGES!!!!!!!!! I'm talking pre middle ages, say around 400-700 AD. EARLY church, not middle ages church.

the catholic church exucuted thousands of ppl who they thought were not good christians,who were condiderd as witches and heretics without a good reason

thousands huh? thats impressive. really. considering the fact that more catholics were killed in the last century than all christians killed in all previous centuries combined, i'm quite impressed with your thousands. second, most of the inquisitions were NOT extensive. the most extensive and widely known (and appropriately villified) is the spanish inquisition... only the spanish inquisition was started by, surprisingly enough (sarcasm) the spanish government. yes, it was supported by the local bishops. no, it was not sanctioned by the office of inquisitions at the vatican. third, as i already stated, the first crusade was a GOOD thing. turks and other muslims were driving an army into europe and the first crusade stopped that invasion. like i said, if it weren't for the first crusade, you'd probably be a muslim right now. again, it is the SUBSEQUENT crusades which were not good.

the caothlic chruch was selling papers on which said that all your sins are forgiven

really? thats news to me. why dont you produce some historical evidence. surely you've seen a copy of one of these pages. with all these invalid indulgences that the church must have been selling, one of them must have survived to this day, along with all the elaborately hand copied bibles. oh wait, no one has ever SEEN one of these notes??? maybe thats because its a MADE UP concept by someone who didnt, and still doesnt understand the concept of an indulgence. again, were there false indulgences sold? yes. was this a sanctioned church activity? no. at the same time, you know that the church still recognizes indulgence right?

martin luther saw all this and he knew that this was totally anti- christian and he started a new religion that will teach christianity instead of using it as a tool to get money and manipulate

HAHAHA, i can't help but laugh at this ignorant statement. have you ever READ martin luther's 95 thesis? have you ever studied martin luther's life? are you aware of the fact that luther didnt ever start a church, he died trying to reconcile with the church? are you aware that martin luther sparked the peasant revolt and then withdrew his support, leading more than 100,000 german peasants to be slaughtered? no, he was a great guy... never manipulated anyone that one.

the catholic chruch saw this and they knew that they will lose their authority and that the ppl won't trust them so they started the contra-reformation, were thousands of innocent ppl were killed for no reason

there was no inquisition immediately following luther's accidental reformation. you have your dates mixed up.

paul h,you should maybe learn something about history before posting about it

i know more about history than apparently you have bothered to learn in your anti-catholic based education.

2/i don't know what is in the mind of a baby lol,but if babies believe in god,why then kids who never been thought about any religion don't believe and don't ask questions about god...etc....

again, account for isolated societies which all recognize a deity. while God's exact fundamentals may not be concrete in the mind, the propensity for worship is written on the souls of men when they are born. Otherwise what? do you really think God creates us flawed and unable to naturally worship Him? do you really think that a mentally retarded person who can't mature past the intellectual age of five can never be saved?

3/i know what you mean paul and i'd agree with you if we wouldn't live in a world full of lies and hate and manipulation so that we don't know anymore who to believe and who not, so i think it is good to rationalize things in general before we believe it and so religion

ah, but you see, religion can't be rationalized, in can only be sufficiently explained. the aspect of faith is that it smooths over the doubts which necessarily exist in any arguement for something even so basic as the existance of God. Faith is not based on rational thought, it is bridges from rational thought to belief. because a child lacks rational thought, and yet has the propensity to worship, they by necessity MUST have the greatest faith to believe that which they cannot see.

5/in some cases it is so as nathan said,but also some ppl don't lose their faith but rediscover it

you would be right, except that nathan blanket stated that rational thought leads one away from religion, which would be any rational person. i assert that this is incorrect, although some people who are rational may a posteriori arrive at a conclusion which is contrary to faith based on their limited experience.

6/true,baptising babies is meaningless,ppl started doing this cos many babies died after they were born and they tought they would go to hell unbaptised...

actually, people started doing this because this is the way it has been done since the original church. the practice of forcing people to wait until some asinine age is reached is a relatively new practice.

you sould get baptised when you trully know that you want to be a christian and that you want to live like one

and what could be a more innocent and potentially faith inspiring time to be baptised than when you are a child and your parents have oodles of time to teach you?

7/nathan didn't say marriage, but he said a relationship between a man and a women

i disagree, but regardless the answer remains the same, relationships between man and woman are not the most beautiful thing in God's creation.

but my opinion is that love between a man and a women is not better or stronger but just a little more special than the other kinds of love

disagree. what love is more special than Jesus hanging on a cross for our sins? I quote when i say "there is no greater love than this, that you lay down your life for a friend."

but many catholics do bow down to these statues...

again, this stems from a lack of understanding on most protestant's part as to what constitutes worship and what is merely respect or honoring. If you met a king in the middle ages, you would bow to him. heck, in asian countries they still bow to each other today. does this represent worship??? no, and its silly to presume so.

give them the freedom so that they can make out by theirselves in what they want to believe

sure, and while you're letting your five year old struggle against the world by himself, why dont you toss him a six pack of corona and the keys to your car, after all, he should be free to discover all these things on his own and who are you to hold him back, right? ridiculous.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 11, 2004.

--your church judges people not based on their deeds,but on their faith and religion--

This is true and this is pure discrimination,i despise this so much about christians,they think they know it all,that they are the smartest and the best and that their religion is the only right one

Well if you can't respect my religion because of your religion,than don't think you'll ever convert me to or get respect from my side

-- Superjew (...@....com), November 11, 2004.

So...what are you really trying to say, Superjew? You haven't made yourself very clear.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), November 11, 2004.

I'm trying to say that christians think that only their religion is the right one and judge other people just because they have a different religion

-- Superjew (...@....com), November 11, 2004.

christians think that only their religion is the right one

Being a Jew, don't you think Judaism is the correct religion? Is there more than one correct religion? In your mind, is Judaism just one religion, no better or worse than others? If so, why bother?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 11, 2004.

I accept and respect many things that are in other religions and i'm not trying to convert anyone to my religion,i don't think that i am a better or smarter person just because i am a jew;surely that there are people who think that way among the jews but i despise that also as much as i despise it from christians

-- Superjew (...@....com), November 12, 2004.

I don't think I am a better or smarter person by being a Catholic. But I do think that a Church founded by God for all men is better than churches founded by men in rebellion against God's Church. (Obviously I am not referring to Judaism here).

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 12, 2004.

the catholic church wasen't established by God,neither Jesus,but by Jesus' followers

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 12, 2004.

Hmmmm, that brings to mind that well-known statement by Jesus Himself, recorded in Matthew 16:18 ... "upon this rock my followers will build My church" ... no, wait, that isn't what He said. Perhaps you should read it for yourself.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 12, 2004.

funny, coz i thought this post was about a woman carrying a muslim guy... but... nevermind..

well, i do have one advice, that is to think twice before you marry this guy. he is still uncertain if he wishes to become a practising muslim or not... you said so yourself. but what if he changes his mind and he does want to practise Islam? sure, he agreed that you may baptize and raise your children catholic. but agreeing and actually doing it are two different things. comfirm what his faith is first, then carry on with the married :) MY OPINION!

-- kim (kmk_koolcat@hotmail.com), November 19, 2004.

I agree with Kim. I'm a Catholic engaged to a non-practicing Muslim, and I'm going through the same thing right now. He, however, doesn't even want the children raised Catholic or baptised. We're about to start counseling with my priest, but if it doesn't work out, I daresay we'll end up breaking the engagement, even though we love each other very much. It's a sad and painful thing, but you have to ask yourself if you would fell comfortable bringing children into the world not feeling comfortable with the religion in which you would be forced to raise them. For you and your significant other, I'm sure you can get along fine together despite your different beliefs, because you are both adults and you can appreciate each others' differences. But with children, you have a responsibility to them not to confuse them and to try to raise them in the best way you know how. That can be very difficult when the parents disagree as to the right way to raise children.

By the way, I think the first few people who posted were very rude to get into an argument over the merits of Catholicism versus Protestantism when Anna was posting here asking for advice on a completely different topic. Neither of you is going to garner any support for "your side" in this way.

Peace be with you, Melody

-- Melody (melody_marie@yahoo.com), November 22, 2004.