Is Purgatory closed for business?

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This is the month of the Holy Souls. I have answered the call in my local parish to 'remember' the dead; however why is the Church within the community is no longer explicitly asking us to pray for them.

I know when I 'go' I want as many prayers as possible from as many people as possible, as I will need them! I hope that God is merciful, however scripture and the Church tells us to pray.

Is this not incredibly presumptuous?

-- Hugh (hugh@inspired.com), November 18, 2004

Answers

Yes it is. It is a real disservice to the deceased when a clergyman goes to a wake, leads a short prayer service, and assures everyone present that the deceased is now in perfect bliss, free of all pain and suffering forever. Of course he says this for the benefit of grieving family members. But what about the deceased person who more than likely is suffering in Purgatory? The clergyman would accomplish far more by encouraging family members and friends to keep the memory of the deceased alive by praying for him/her daily, and remembering him/her every time they attend Mass. I know I am not going to bypass Purgatory, and the last thing I want is some well-intentioned person getting up at my funeral and telling everyone "you can stop praying for Paul, he has no need of your prayers".

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 18, 2004.

Purgatory used to be considered a place.

No longer. The theology has deepened.

If you think of God, Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory as out of our commond concept of space and time, Purgatory becomes not a place but a state of being.

Purgatory is a state of transition. And, I believe we are aided in our tranisition by the prayers of others. But,only God knows "how long" our state of transition will be.

I don't necessarily want to leave this minute, and I don't WANT to go through the dying process, but I am looking forward to seeing what is on the "other side".

God bless

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), November 18, 2004.


To Paul M.

You say, "I know I am not going to bypass Purgatory..."

Is it not possible to bypass Purgatory?

Let's say that one day (many, many years from now, I hope), you go to Confession, are absolved, do your penance, and then you do something that gives a plenary indulgence (like saying the Rosary in Church or something like that). Then, very soon after that, before you've committed another mortal sin, God calls you back to Him.

Wouldn't you bypass Purgatory in that case?

-- Curious about plenary indulgences/Purgatory (fake@ddress.com), November 18, 2004.


Yes, it is possible, at least in theory, to bypass Purgatory. However, I don't think many people do so, and I'm not exactly a living saint. That's all I meant by the comment.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 18, 2004.

Thanks Paul, that's what I was hoping you meant. (Otherwise, I was afraid I was going to have to unlearn something.)

-- Curious about plenary indulgences/Purgatory (fake@ddress.com), November 18, 2004.


Hugh, I don't really know what you mean. Most people would say my parish is pretty "trendy", but our parish priest exhorts us to pray for all the deceased, and we have a book inscribed with the names of our deceased relatives and friends, whom we pray for together right thru November, keeping the book open on a special stand in the sanctuary. When your parish asks you to "remember" the dead, don't they mean "remember to include them in your prayers"?

I did tell my little nephew that his grandmother is now in Heaven. That was hard enough to explain without bringing Purgatory into it.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), November 18, 2004.


When your parish asks you to "remember" the dead, don't they mean "remember to include them in your prayers"?

Steve what is implicit to me, is probably not so for others. This is my concern. There is never any explcit mention of purgatory or why we should pray.

Even on this bulletin board, until this message was posted, there is no mention of it this month, of all months.

-- Hugh (hugh@inpsired.com), November 19, 2004.


I did tell my little nephew that his grandmother is now in Heaven. That was hard enough to explain without bringing Purgatory into it.

How old is he Steve?

-- Brian Crane (brian. crane@cranemills.com), November 19, 2004.


This very subject was just one where I had conflict with the priest of the parrish outside of Boston where my Mother's funeral service was held this past August. My brother, the Fundamentalist, was permitted to "preach" to those who attended that since Mom had spoken both to his minister and a priest before she died, and had stated to the minister that she believed in Jesus Christ as her Savior, that she had gone "straight to heaven."

I don't have a problem with anyone comforting grieving families..nor do I propose that a priest say.."NOPE.Mom is suffering in Purgatory, live with it." Yet when I called the parrish to tell them what my brother had in mind, I was told that I was "out of line"..that "It was up to God to decide if Mom was going straight to heaven or not", and that my brother's salvation message was appropriate, since Jesus did not suffer and die just for Catholics."

I have to tell you I was rather blown away, since I'd never heard of anyone being permitted to preach Fundamentalist doctrine at a Catholic service..never mind being told (indirectly) that Purgatory is outdated. Other relatives who were there said that the message was that as long as one "accepts Christ as your personal Savior, you're guaranteed to go straight to heaven." and the priest sat there and smiled and let my brother preach this. Apparently Catholic doctrine doesn't apply in that parrish.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), November 19, 2004.


Lesley, I'm feel sure your brother was not prostelytizing.

Bottomline -- Only God knows for sure how long our transition will be. Keep praying for the departed.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), November 19, 2004.



A Dominican priest, Fr. Paul O'Sullivan, wrote a booklet on "How to Avoid Purgatory." I am not a saint either but I intend to avoid Purgatory if I can help it. I don't think I will enjoy all those fire and smoke. Father Sullivan offers ten means on how to avoid purgatory. They are practical and achievable. Briefly, they are: 1. Remove the cause, 2. Penance, 3. Suffering, 4. Confession, Communion, Holy Mass, 5. Asking God, 6. Resignation to Death, 7. Extreme Unction, 8. Indulgences, 9. Third Orders, and 10. Those who earnestly help the Holy Souls may well hope to avoid Purgatory. The booklet is published by Tan Books.

-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), November 20, 2004.

"Purgatory used to be considered a place. No longer. The theology has deepened."

Wrong.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), November 20, 2004.


Thank you Emerald. I can't believe I missed that. Poor speed reading. But actually john may be partially correct. While it is erroneous to not consider it a place, many people in fact, do not consider it a place.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 21, 2004.

It is not in conflict with Catholic teaching to believe that Purgatory, Heaven and Hell are not "places" in the sense we typically apply to that term, that is, locations in space with specific dimensions. Before the Creation there was no such thing as "space" and therefore no such thing as "places". Space exists only within the physical universe. Therefore "places" in that sense also exist only within the physical universe. Eventually the physical universe - matter, energy, space and time - will cease to exist. Heaven and hell however will never cease to exist. Therefore they cannot be "places" in the usual sense of the word. If they are "places" in any sense, it must be in a totally different sense from the usual concept represented by that term. Therefore many theologians think it is more reasonable to characterize Heaven, Hell and Purgatory as "states of existence" rather than "places". I really don't think it is an important point. What we experience when we enter into those states/places is really what matters.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 21, 2004.

Brian, my nephew is 3 and a half. I certainly do not consider purgatory a place, and I'm sure this is not in conflict with the Faith. In fact calling it "a place" leads to error, typified by those atheists who say "Well we've been up above the clouds and we didn't see God up there, and we've drilled down underground for miles and we didn't strike Hell, so your faith is false!"

I think the case of the priest who let the fundy say that the deceased was certainly in Heaven was a one-off aberration caused by the unusual situation in that family. I've certainly never heard anyone say such a thing in a Catholic church. Though in the case of one particularly good and devoted old parishioner, our priest said "If she's not going to Heaven, then I think there's no hope for the rest of us." We don't KNOW, but the approved texts of our Requiem Mass and prayers for burial are full of ASKING God to welcome the deceased to the fulness of life in Heaven. And remember those in purgatory ARE already "saved". Everyone in purgatory is destined for Heaven.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), November 21, 2004.



My bad. I realize now that John was probably talking about the Holy Father's recent pronouncement about Purgatory not being a physicalplace, although I'm not sure why the Pope felt the need to make the distinction. Did alot of people think that Purgatory was a planet out in the cosmos somewhere? I agree with Paul, I don't think its an important point. My point was to echo the original lament in this thread. It seems that many people no longer seriously believe in purgatory, whether a physical place or a state of existence.

Steve,

Yeah, 3 years old is pretty young. I agree. But I'm not one to brush aside the existence of purgatory to children of a young age--maybe even 4 or 5 years old. Blessed Jacinta Marto was only 6, I believe, when Our Lady of Fatima told the children that one of their friends from the village who had recently died would be in purgatory until the end of the world. Our Lady also told her brother Francisco, all of nine years old, that he would have to pray many, many rosaries in order to get to heaven.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 21, 2004.


The Faith teaches that we will be reunited with our bodies, whether for good or ill. We can't rightly have that happen to us without us ending up in an actual place. We are composite beings, body and soul, matter and form. It is of our very nature, designed this way by God. Therefore, it is of our nature to be in an actual place.

But the phrase "state of being" is completely unclear as to what it means. What is a state of being would be a good question, for starters. Produce a non-nebulous meaning for this phrase, maybe, because as it stands, who can say what it really refers to?

Nope; it is of our very essence, as human beings, to be in place. We've been created this way, body and soul, and the resulting composite of body/soul must exist in a place. It absolutely has to. Take place away, and there exists a conflict with the doctrine concerning the final judgment, and right philosophy, and common sense, and a whole host of other conflicts and contradictions as well.

If the matter is talked through sufficiently, you'll all end up believing that Heaven and Hell and Purgatory really are actual places.

That's one issue. The other when is how the Church could possibly teach one then, and then later, teach the opposite in the name of a deepening understanding. In fact, the Church teaches against such ideas. Pascendi Dominici Gregis.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), November 21, 2004.


Our Blessed Mother's promise to St. Dominic and Blessed Allan in the 12th Century : "I shall deliver from Purgarory those who have been devoted to the Rosary."

-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), November 21, 2004.

> "The Faith teaches that we will be reunited with our bodies, whether for good or ill. We can't rightly have that happen to us without us ending up in an actual place."

A: That would be true if the bodies with which we are to be reunited were to be just as they are now. However, the Church teaches that our bodies, once reunited, will be in a "glorified state". No-one knows exactly what this glorified state will be like. The Church teaches only that it will be vastly different from the current physical state of our bodies. Therefore the requirements for its existence may also be vastly different.

> "We are composite beings, body and soul, matter and form. It is of our very nature, designed this way by God. Therefore, it is of our nature to be in an actual place".

A: When we die, our physical bodies will cease to exist. Therefore the place or state in which we then exist will not be dependent upon our physical bodies. Eventually we will be reunited with our bodies, but in a glorified form which we know virtually nothing about. Therefore we cannot predict anything about the nature of the "place" or "state" in which we will then exist - except that it will not be physical in nature.

> "But the phrase "state of being" is completely unclear as to what it means. What is a state of being would be a good question, for starters. Produce a non-nebulous meaning for this phrase, maybe, because as it stands, who can say what it really refers to?"

A: Exactly right. Since we are utterly incapable of understanding the nature of the afterlife in any real sense, we are forced to describe it in such terms as "state of being", "non-physical place", "glorified body", etc., none of which can be defined precisely. This is because "as it is written: eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him". (1 Corinthians 2:9) Therefore we just do our best to describe it in terms we are familiar with.

> "That's one issue. The other when is how the Church could possibly teach one then, and then later, teach the opposite in the name of a deepening understanding. In fact, the Church teaches against such ideas. Pascendi Dominici Gregis."

A: While the fact of heaven is dogma, and certain revealed characteristics (it is everlasting) are likewise dogmatic, other elements of the nature of heaven are not. How could they be when such information has not been revealed to the Church by God? Therefore, such matters are open to theological study and speculation, and the Church proposes those ideas which seem most in keeping with what is known to be true as a result of cumulative scholarship.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 21, 2004.


"However, the Church teaches that our bodies, once reunited, will be in a "glorified state". No-one knows exactly what this glorified state will be like."

True.

"The Church teaches only that it will be vastly different from the current physical state of our bodies. Therefore the requirements for its existence may also be vastly different."

You would have to point me to where the Church has expressed that it would be vastly different, and in what sense different. You have to ask in what way will it be vastly different. Will it be essentially different, as in something of uniquely and entirely different creation, or merely different in condition of the same essential being as in perfect vs. imperfect. The problem I would have is with any "different" that would entail a departure from the original created nature of man. The disparity between perfection and imperfection of the same being alone is tremendous enough alone. We don't need to posit that we will be morphed into some other type of being to account for differences.

"When we die, our physical bodies will cease to exist. Therefore the place or state in which we then exist will not be dependent upon our physical bodies. Eventually we will be reunited with our bodies, but in a glorified form which we know virtually nothing about."

But there's something to work out here. On the one hand, you have bodies that cease to exist, but on the other, we have it by Faith that we will be reunited with that which has ceased to exist. Somewhere along the line here you have to get involved in a discussion of matter, form and substrate. Assuming the things of Faith being held without question, the rest of this is a philosophical question, really, at the root of it.

"Therefore we cannot predict anything about the nature of the "place" or "state" in which we will then exist - except that it will not be physical in nature."

The last part can't be right, though, is what I'm trying to get at. It most certainly will have the nature of a physical existence. If you want to posit that this physical nature will be unlike anything we are familiar with, then sure, I would absolutely agree with that. But to say it isn't physical... can't do that. We have the Blessed Sacrament, the Incarnation as central to our Faith. The Word becomes flesh, etc. Our entire roster of Sacraments stoops over to reach to us, and God bends Himself in our direction to make contact with us in our physical existence. There is our composite nature to reckon with, that of composite being. To be physical beings is intregal to our very created nature, and cannot be simply dispensed with. He made us this way; it is what we are. We are, in fact, the summit of His creation. Not the highest in hierarchy, mind you, but the masterpiece.

"This is because "as it is written: eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him". (1 Corinthians 2:9) Therefore we just do our best to describe it in terms we are familiar with."

I believe this. But this doesn't force a jump to positing a non- corporal existence of the human being in the afterlife.

This is actually a very interesting discussion though. This made a good read. Part I, in particular.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), November 22, 2004.


The reason for raising Hell from the New Advent site as opposed to the related sections on Purgatory and Heaven from the same site was that the discussion in that particular place seemed offhand to jive more with the discussion at hand. In other words, the focus intended isn't Hell here, but issues concerning physical existence in a place.

I'll have to pull up the other sections on Heaven and Purgatory and read through them more carefully. Maybe we could dig up some more stuff that will shed light on the topic. There's some good stuff in Trent that is somewhat related but requires some time to dig up.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), November 22, 2004.


I think it was just temporarily closed for some fall cleaning. Last I checked Purgatory is back on line and functioning well. :)

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), November 23, 2004.

As a new convert to the faith from a Southern Baptist background, I don't understnad the concept of purgatory. I know that is is something we are supposed to have to "endure" after our death and that those entering into it are guarnteed salvation at some point, but I guess what I am asking is this: Where did the idea of it's existance come from? Is it scriptural? Why do protestant churches teach against it? And what shall I say to my protestants who ask me why I believe what I do. I have an answer for most everything else. Why I pray to Mary, saints, ect.... why I have a picture of Christ on my livingroom wall and a cruicifix on my wall but don't worship them, why I feel that the Pope IS the head of the church. I can answer most any question about my faith and find scripture to back it up, but not on the subjest of purgatory.

as a final note....If I can not explain it or understnad it myself, it is hard for me to believe it. I know you might say, "But you believe in God and how does one explain Him?" I believe in God, because at one time I didn't believe and something incredable happened to me, that I will explain at another time, that showed me that God is indeed real.

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 23, 2004.


If you go to www.catholic.com and select '"Last Things" in the left column, you will find a good treatment of this subject.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 23, 2004.

In all seriousness, "Purgatory" is a technical term of a concept that is both mentioned in scripture as well as is something deduced from theological reflection. It's the same thing as "trinity" - nowhere mentioned per se in the Gospels, but the concept of God being one and yet 3 is there all over the place...

In Maccabees Judas has sin offerings made for the jews who fell in battle (fighting a just war) who also had worn lucky charm bracelets (a sin). Thus he believed that prayers for the dead were meritorious in that they could actually expiate some sin on behalf of the dead.

In the letters of Paul and Peter we read about people being saved "as though through fire" and their works burnt up - purified "as gold is tested in fire".

God is revealed as a blazing fire in St John and we learn elsewhere that nothing stained enters heaven... ergo theologians put all the pieces together and muted the existence of some temporal state post- mortem that wasn't hell and wasn't yet heaven but was still a place where the souls of the dead were totally cleansed of any "stain" - such as bad habits, etc.

I don't think Protestants have thought through all the significance or ramifications of the bible that profess to know by heart - but Catholics have, down through the centuries. This isn't necessarily to knock protestants. Anyone who doesn't have a corporate memory, a growing stockpile of theology to pull from is going to have to reinvent the wheel (or in this case, theology) one generation from the next and won't get very far each time.

If Catholics had to start from scratch every 100 years we'd be in exactly the same boat. But I can pick up an encyclical and know it's the real deal. I can read St Ignatius or St Irenaeus of Lyons...Ambrose and Augustin, Aquinas and Benedict, Francis and Dominic etc. and learn things about God and his revelation that few preachers today even know much less imagine.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), November 23, 2004.


It is ONLY by His death on the Cross that we are able to get into Purgatory! His sacrifice was absolutely sufficient to save all men - and yet we know that not all men are saved! Why? Because it is up to each individual person to accept and live by the graces of the gift Christ offers. No-one does this perfectly. Right within your own church congregation some are far more fully committed to Christ than others. Among men there is a complete range of commitment to Christ, from virtually total sacrifice of one's earthly life for the gospel message to outright hatred and persecution of the gospel message. Somewhere along that continuum there is a cutoff, where God separates the sheep from the goats. We have no way of knowing where that degree of commitment and response lies. But the Bible tells us that nothing unclean can come into God's presence. It is obvious that among those who are counted among the sheep, some are far more spiritually clean than others, even though all are saved. By the grace of Christ's death and Resurrection, and His infinite love and mercy, those sheep who are not sufficiently pure to appear before the throne of God "spotless and without blemish" are purified by His grace before reaching their eternal destination.

If Purgatory did not exist then one of two things would have to be true - (1) Every person who died with the slightest trace of spiritual blemish would go directly to hell - which would mean virtually everyone; or (2) People who have lived "on the fence" spiritually and who die carrying a burden of spiritual imperfection will walk directly into heaven alongside the holiest of the holy - something which Scripture plainly says cannot happen. His death on the Cross does not "cover" our sins. It provides the grace for us to turn from our sins and receive eternal life - which happens to the extent we allow it to happen by our response to His grace during our earthly lives. He does not smuggle us into heaven soiled and stained, under the "cover" of His grace, pretending we are pure. Rather, He gives us the opportunity to actually BECOME pure, so that we can enter heaven without false pretenses.

> "Do you really think you can add to your own salvation like that? Isn't salvation suppose to be a gift?'"

A: Add? Add what? What we receive is salvation. Period. There is nothing that can be added to that. Salvation is a free gift; and like anything freely offered it must be freely accepted. Some reject the gift outright. For them there is no hope. A very few respond almost fully, devoting their entire lives to following Christ, apparently free from worldly concerns, though even these exceptionally holy souls do sin. The rest of us will arrive at the banquet with smudges on our faces and stains on our clothing. And the Lord of the banquet will gaze upon us in perfect love and say "let's get you cleaned up before you come inside, so that you can fully enjoy the banquet I have prepared for you". What more could anyone desire?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 23, 2004.


Here is a great article that explains purgatory from Scripture and Jewish tradition, http://www.chnetwork.org/pu rg1.htm, for Suzanne or anyone else interested.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), November 24, 2004.

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