I would ask Emily and Andy to try this website. It might be infomative to them

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), November 19, 2004

Answers

Sorry- I hit wrong button this is it;

http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/index.html

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com)), November 19, 2004.

Thanks TC. Lots of good links in one place. I noticed a list of the papal encyclicals that came up in our recent discussions.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 19, 2004.

Here is a link. It really is a tremendous site.

-- jake (j@k.e), November 19, 2004.

Here is one for Emoly.

http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/warning.html

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), November 19, 2004.

And here is one for me. I couldn't resist.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 19, 2004.

Rod

you are the master joker!!!!

very good!!!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 19, 2004.

The website recommended above does have a lot of useful links. Unfortunately the real purpose of the site becomes obvious before reading very far, namely the dissemination of schismatic, so-called "traditionalist" propaganda, visciously attacking the Pope, the Mass, and the Holy Catholic Church. It is a very dangerous site for anyone who is not solidly grounded in the Holy Catholic Faith. It is specifically designed to breed divisiveness and contempt for the Church. Anything worthwhile that is present on this website can also be found on genuinely Catholic websites, so there is really no reason to visit sites such as this, which can be occasions of serious sin for anyone susceptible to such propaganda.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 19, 2004.

lol.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), November 19, 2004.

Here is a good website if you want to learn the truth: What must I do to be saved?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 21, 2004.

Who determined that this is the truth?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 22, 2004.

Uh.....Kevin?

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 22, 2004.

Well, maybe Larry?

Jim has a nice house!

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 22, 2004.

From that website:

"When Christ was on the cross, He was still on this earth. And He had the authority to forgive sins. "

That is a confusiing assertion. Am I to believe that because Christ is not actually walking on earth, He no longer has the authority to forgive sins? That's a justification for Baptism? Huh??

(We've been over this before. Another new thread? Oh, well....)

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 22, 2004.

That "What must I do to be saved?" website has a glaring error. It omitted this fine print: Obey the teachings of the Catholic Church and stay away from the teachings of wanna-be-popes or self-proclaimed-prophets or loud-mouth-ministers.

-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), November 22, 2004.

Churhc of Christ dosnt beleive in the Pope or Catholic Chruch though, so I dont think it was an imission...Though not sure what its point was in this particular thread.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 22, 2004.

Joseph is a dedicated member of the conciliar church. Loyalty is a wonderful attribute, but it must first be to truth. Joseph, when does this pope refer to anything prior to V2? Rarely if ever. Why? Because it clashes with the modernity of V2.

I do not have all the answers by any means, but I am not afraid to follow truth, and I trust all the popes before that, because they gave us a strong and vibrant church of saints and martyrs.

If the best "saint" that V2 has to offer is Pope John 23rd I can have my doubts. He ignored the Fatima mesage of Our Lady and went ahead with his council. It has brought nothing but dissention and division.

Any wonder why one of the six Protestants attending the council said, "We have now completed the work that Luther began"

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), November 22, 2004.

"Churhc of Christ dosnt beleive in the Pope or Catholic Chruch"

Book, Chapter, and Verse, please! Just kidding, Zarove.

"Joseph is a dedicated member of the conciliar church."

Yes, we are so few nowadays, only a Billion strong and United as one in the Holy Eucharist and the visible Head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on earth.

"Loyalty is a wonderful attribute, but it must first be to truth."

TC, Dissent is not a wonderful attribute, especially dissent from the Divine Authority of the Vicar of Christ and his Magisterium -- the Fount of Truth from Christ and the Holy Spirit.

"Joseph, when does this pope refer to anything prior to V2? Rarely if ever. Why?"

Maybe, because he's not Italian :-)

"I do not have all the answers by any means"

It's OK. The Magisterium does in all matters of faith and morals.

"If the best "saint" that V2 has to offer is Pope John 23rd I can have my doubts."

Actually, JPII beatified 1310 Blesseds and canonized 469 Saints. Take your pick. Anyone of them is better than you -- they are all in heavenly bliss, glory, and perfection.

"He ignored the Fatima mesage of Our Lady and went ahead with his council. It has brought nothing but dissention and division."

The crest of JPII has the letter M, for Mary. He is competely devoted to the Mother of Jesus Christ, Mother of the Church, and the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

"Any wonder why one of the six Protestants attending the council said, "We have now completed the work that Luther began"

Whatever Luther started and ended has no place in the Catholic Church. He's anathema.

-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), November 22, 2004.

"Who determined that this is the truth?"

God...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 22, 2004.

"Uh.....Kevin?"

Yes Rod???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 22, 2004.

Rod wrote, "From that website: "When Christ was on the cross, He was still on this earth. And He had the authority to forgive sins."

Then said, "That is a confusiing assertion. Am I to believe that because Christ is not actually walking on earth, He no longer has the authority to forgive sins? That's a justification for Baptism? Huh??"

No one said that because Christ was not "actually walking on earth, He no longer has the authority to forgive sins"... On which page was this discussed on the website that you refer to above???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 22, 2004.

Hi Kevin.

Jim and Larry seemed like a relatively easy case. The hard cases are those who have left the flock and who now border on the edge of atheistism. They peeked up from atop a mountain of knowledge, but they just couldn't get quite over as their faith slid quickly to the foot of a hill. Those are the tough cases.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 22, 2004.

That quotation was dealing with an argument for Baptism in regards to Dismas on the cross with Christ. Dismas was Old Testament plan, not New Testament, according to the argument, and didn't need baptizing because (I too made the same argument at one time) Christ was there with Dismas to forgive him and save him.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 22, 2004.

Ok, I don't know what "atheistism" is. If I did, it probably doesn't exist anyway. I meant "atheism".

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 22, 2004.

Hey Joseph,

"Whatever Luther started and ended has no place in the Catholic Church. He's anathema. "

explain the rationale of this to me: Luther is anathema, but the contemporary Lutheran isn't.

does the mere passage of time turn a heresy into a licit religion?

the modern Lutheran holds the same views as early Lutherans. those views are as heretical today, perhaps even more so, as they were 100 years ago.

the modern Lutheran is very aware of the necessity of the Church. we live in the information age.

why then?

or is this another mystery that only the Holy Father can ever understand?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 22, 2004.

Rod,

Thanks for the info... That statement was made concerning the thief on the cross because those who claim faith only salvation look to the thief as their model for not being baptized for the remission of their sins...

Jesus did have the authority to forgive sins while He was on the earth and it is evident that Jesus forgave his sins when He said that he would be with Him in paradise...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 22, 2004.

I have no argument with that, Kevin. But, Jesus still has the power and authority to forgive sins, now.

Ok, why can't you call the thief on the cross by his name? Dismas.

Is his name a myth or legend? Or, is it simply because his name is not mentioned in the Bible.........OK.....I answered my own question. Never mind.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 22, 2004.

Ian, I'm with you on this one, modern Lutheranism, the religion, is still a heresy; Lutherans, the people, are still heretics ... walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, must be a duck -- not a mystery at all.

BUT some people may argue that they are generations removed from the root heresy of Luther and therefore not culpable and therefore not intentional heretics, and therefore non-heretics. Hmmm.

The Catholic Church considers baptized (trinitarian baptism) protestants as Separated Brethren. However, their souls are still in the grrreaatest danger because they do not partake of the Holy Sacraments of the Catholic Church especially Holy Confession, Holy Eucharist, and Sacrament of the Sick; plus, chances are, they are not invincably ignorant. Since they are Separated, may God have mercy on their souls.

-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), November 23, 2004.

yes Joseph.

i just wonder who can claim to be invincibly ignorant AND to have perfect charity?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 23, 2004.

Ian,

Of course only God knows definitively but we can try to speculate ... how about a deaf, mute, blind orphan who loves God? or a 12 year old virgin girl, from a remote Amazon tribe, who prays all the time? I think a person who is invincably ignorant and with perfect charity is like a needle in a haystack.

-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), November 23, 2004.

Joseph, i do see your point on the Pope but what i struggle to understand is this. he's an "orthodox" Pope in so many ways (abortion, bitrth control, female ordination, etc); but he just seems so hell-bent on ecumenism regardless of the outcome. read this story:

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=30035

that's what ecumenism does - it blurs the distinctions - it legitimises religious chaos and anarchy. it becomes a free-for-all.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 24, 2004.

By reaching out to Protestants, the newchurch people have given away everything that is precious and Caatholic. Hee is another real life example.

Do these Newchurch bishops ever learn? Is there even one of them who is sane? Apparently not. Now that they have all been exposed in the moral sphere as colluding or participating in crimes from embezzlement to conspiracy to racketeering to concealment of evidence to obstruction of justice to prostitution, they are repeating the worst scandals in the liturgical sphere by putting on a "Broadway Mess" to open their recent conference, which degenerated to a silly spectacle with "Gimme that Old Time Religion" and some bishops clapping and swaying to the closing hymn before processing down the aisle like drunkards.

You wanderers who think that you can find a "reverent" Novus Ordo Mass or you Adoremus types that think a "better translation" will correct the problem, think again. It is hard to deny any longer that the Novus Ordo service, in any version, is unCatholic, sacrilegious, irreverent, scandalous, blasphemous, idolatrous, and conclusively invalid, as yet another book recently published by a Roman canonist has demonstrated.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), November 24, 2004.

Ian,

So what if our beloved Pope is "hell-bent" (as you irreverently put it) on ecumenism? It doesn't diminish one iota the sanctity of his Holy Office. He is still the 265th Pope, the legitimate Successor of St. Peter. He is still the rightful Bishop of Rome, the indisputable Vicar of Christ on earth. He still has Divine Authority over the Billion, united Catholic sheep. Different Popes have different personalities and agenda; this one just so happen to be zealous for ecumenism. The next Vicar of Christ might not be as interested in hobknobbing with the non-Catholic separated brethren, schismatics, heretics, heathen, pagans. This Pope is nearly impeccable, the next Pope might not be as impeccable. So what? All the Catholic sheep are still united as one in support of our beloved Pope. Aren't you in the habit of praying for JPII, your Pope, every single day?

Trust -- The Catholic Church trusts in the guidance of the Holy Spirit upon every legitimate Pope. The 2000 year Catholic history proves the faithfulness of the Holy Spirit. What was once a mustard seed is now a mature tree with birds nesting on its branches.

Having an ecumenical pope is not a good enough reason to go into schism -- plain Disobedience -- similar to what Luther did.

Poverty, Chastity, Obedience -- the schismatic priests broke the sacred vow of Obedience they had pledged to Holy Mother Church -- similar to what Satan and his evil angels did against God Almighty.

If two heads are better than one, then one Billion Catholic heads are better than one thousand schismatic heads.

If a 5 year job experience is better than a one year job experience, then the 2000 year Catholic Church experience is better than the 50 year schismatic experience.

-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), November 24, 2004.

Indifferentism blurs distinctions, creating an illusion of unity where there is none. Indifferentism is also known as "false ecumenism". True ecumenism doesn't blur distinctions. It recognizes them even as it seeks to eradicate them, by striving for genuine unity, which is the divine mission of the Church - to call all men into the true fold. Separatism inhibits the mission of the Church, and often leads to elitism.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 25, 2004.

"Separatism inhibits the mission of the Church, and often leads to elitism."

But theses terms separatism and elitism cannot be referenced to the Church; the Church doesn't speak of them. Secular society does, but the Church, no.

I don't see anything of an elitism or separatism applying to traditional Catholics, in all honesty. It's a mere opinion, and I believe it to be misguided.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), November 25, 2004.

We better start that other conversation pretty soon. I see degenerating forces bending the thread in another direction.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), November 25, 2004.

Joseph,

yes, "hell-bent" was an ill-chosen word. it was most certainly NOT a deliberate double-entendre.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 25, 2004.

Paul

"True ecumenism doesn't blur distinctions."

explain to me Paul why the Pope kissed a book that relegates the Second Person to a Tier #2 Prophet.

was he expecting the Moslems to engage in a mass conversion to Catholicism? the purpose of ecumenism is evangelisation. how many converts did he get?

if i were a Muslim, i'd take it as a positive affirmation of Islam, or a symbolic equalisation of Islam and Christianity by the world's leading Christian.

and what about the effect of such symbology on Catholics? are we surprised that the Swiss have a Eucharistic free-for-all.

let's have a straight answer to a straight question, please, and no more of this yah-de-yah "you're not fit to lick his boots" stuff that leads nowhere.

just a straight answer to a sincerely posed question.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), November 25, 2004.

This is how far the novus ordo church has sunk. Never mind for the moment the for you, or all controversy, or ecumsnism, or the Koran. They are all horrible, but look at what they tolerate in the most cowardly and shameful way. Yes, the election is over but the memories linger on.It is a fact that one can be in John Paul II’s “Church” and be pro-abortion. An honest person cannot deny this. John Kerry is a case in point: the Vatican and his Bishops have been fully aware of his obstinate pro-abortion stand for a long time, and yet he has not been excommunicated. Thus, those who continue to say that John Paul II is the real Pope and his Bishops the legitimate hierarchy, but that one still cannot be a Catholic and be pro-abortion, are liars. The “hierarchy” of John Paul II recognizes him as a Catholic. Thus, it is a fact that one can be a part of the sect of John Paul II and be pro-abortion. This alone proves that the Vatican II sect is not the Catholic Church. The false traditionalists who obstinately accept the apostate John Paul II – and his disgusting, apostate Bishops – mock the Catholic dogma which condemns abortion by recognizing as Catholic a hierarchy which recognizes pro-abortionists as Catholics. The disgusting, phony hierarchy of the Vatican II sect and John Paul II are so heretical and such a sick joke that they cannot even bring themselves to excommunicate the execrable John Kerry.

-- TC (Treadmill234@@south.com), November 25, 2004.

On what basis do you suppose that the Church has the authority to excommunicate persons who hold moral views not in keeping with the teaching of the Church? Should all Catholics who accept abortion under certain cicumstances be excommunicated? All Catholics who accept extramarital sexual relationships? All Catholics who accept artificial contraception? All Catholics who accept homosexual relationships? Don't get me wrong - all of the above Catholics are most certainly in serious error, and in great spiritual danger. But is it the Church's mission to excommunicate persons who are in grave moral error, thereby cutting them off from any hope of coming to know the truth? Or to minister to them?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 25, 2004.

http://holyroodschool.catholicweb.com/index.cfm/NewsItem? SlideID=30021&id=114923&From=Home#headline

Anyone inerested in what your children are learning in catholic schools, check these pictures.

I wonder if the priests are over at the siks school trying to make them catholic.

-- TC (Treadmill234@@south.com), November 26, 2004.

Sorry wrong lead. try this;

http://holyroodschool.catholicweb.com/index.cfm/NewsItem? id=114923&From=Home

-- (Treadmill@@south.com), November 26, 2004.

Third attempt to get it right. You will get to the school, but when you get there go to the 18th item down on right side entitled Sikh day.

Some shocking pictures.

http://holyroodschool.catholicweb.com/index.cfm/NewsItem? id=114923&From=Home

-- TC (Treadmill234@@south.com), November 26, 2004.

"But is it the Church's mission to excommunicate persons who are in grave moral error, thereby cutting them off from any hope of coming to know the truth?"

Only if they happen to repeat what the Church has taught for 2,000 years...

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), November 26, 2004.

< /sarcasm >

Forgot to close tags; sorry.

Paul, at what point would you be willing to have a genuine discussion about the Catholicism of tradition, setting aside any sentimental grievances and misconceptions you may entertain concerning it?

Are we all just too harsh and negative?

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), November 26, 2004.

TC,

What you talk about in the Church is certainly scandalous.

However, my experience in what you call the "Novus Ordo" Church is just the opposite. The parish I just came from had two masses each day and each were attended well in my estimation (20-30 people per Mass). Eucharistic adoration and Benediction once a month and a Rosary prayer group every week. These outward signs of devotion were edifying, but I also came to know the real faith of the people at the parish. Their faith blessed me. I recently moved out of state and am attending a growing parish that will be starting Eucharistic Adoration once the church building is complete. Their work to catechise the adults and children is exciting.

There have been horrible times in the Church's history, but Christ never abandoned her. The "parallel" church hierarchies during Arianism, many of the Renaissance popes, and the decay of personal holiness of the priesthood in the times of Catherine of Siena and St. Francis Assisi, for example. But the Church was always protected by the Holy Spirit from doctrinal error.

The popes and bishops may not be using their authority as you and I wish they would, but they are still the successors of the Apostles. And being human, some are stronger than others. If you look for it, I think you'll see there is a movement in the Church to reign in liberals and modernists. The number of lay people and bishops who won't stand for this sort of thing are growing. The priests and deacons graduating from seminaries since Pope John Paul II are orthodox. The majority of "liberal-minded" priests are typically the older ones who are losing parishioners. Do I have numbers as proof? No (or not yet). Guess I should do some research to back up these statements. This is just what I have found from my personal experiences in the Church.

I wanted to point out that there are always bad things happening in the Church. That doesn't justify us separating ourselves from her.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 26, 2004.

The parish I just came from had two masses each day and each were attended well in my estimation (20-30 people per Mass). - Andy

That's daily Mass (one at 6:30 am and another at 8:30 am).

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 26, 2004.

We better start that other conversation pretty soon. I see degenerating forces bending the thread in another direction. - Emerald

Yes, let's do this Emerald. Do you want to have it in this forum or in the Catholic forum next door? I'd be willing to post the topic starter, but I think you'd come up with the best wording.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 26, 2004.

Emerald pleae start a new thread. Start it here though, not over in Pravda.

-- TC ((Treadmill234@south.com)), November 26, 2004.

" I wanted to point out that there are always bad things happening in the Church. That doesn't justify us separating ourselves from her"

Andy, your quote above.

You are correct, as the church being run by human beings is always going to have this trouble It is a proof of her divinity that she has lasted this long.

My own family and friends have this discussion every time we get together,and tometimes it can get pretty hot.

One says "sure there are problems, but solve them inside the church". Others will say " we have tried that for years but to no avail".

So we go our separate ways. The big concern is for the young children. All agree that the Catholic schools are no place to get a Catholic education.

Reason they go: For physical safety. Never for spiritual safety.

A sad commentary.

-- TC (Treadmill234@@south.com), November 26, 2004.

Paul; Your post amazes me. The list you gave is cause for excommunication. Just because these people see nothing wrong does not give them license to go on that way, and poison other minds in the process.

Abortion has always been a cause for excommunication, and one had to be forgiven by the bishop, not the priest. That of course, is the public abortionist, such as Kerry.

The others were ipso facto excommunicated.

Can't you see the scandal the bishops and pope give, when they allow this blatant public behaviour by a presidential candidate?

Where does that leave their credibility as leaders of The Lord's flock. Some shepherds!

-- TC (Treadmill234@@south.com), November 26, 2004.

> "Paul; Your post amazes me. The list you gave is cause for excommunication. Just because these people see nothing wrong does not give them license to go on that way, and poison other minds in the process."

A: Obviously not! And the Church cannot in any way condone such unacceptable views of morality. However, it isn't grounds for excommunication. If the Church excommunicated everyone who has a mistaken idea about the morality of particular acts, there wouldn't be many Catholics left, sad to say. The Church's responsibility regarding such people is to educate them, call them to repentance, forgive them, and heal them, not to kick them out the door.

> "Abortion has always been a cause for excommunication, and one had to be forgiven by the bishop, not the priest. That of course, is the public abortionist, such as Kerry."

A: Yes - abortion. Direct participation in procuring or committing an abortion is grounds for excommunication, which is automatic and does not require any further action by the Church. However, merely holding a false personal view regarding the morality of abortion is not and never has been grounds for excommunication.

> "Can't you see the scandal the bishops and pope give, when they allow this blatant public behaviour by a presidential candidate?"

A: I don't recall any statements of approval of Mr. Kerry's rhetoric by any bishop, and most certainly not by the Pope. The mere fact that your unrealistic demands for Mr. Kerry's excommunication were not met doesn't imply any sort of approval. As for Mr. Kerry's "behavior", he has free will. How would you suggest the Church prevent such behavior? Does the Church prevent your behavior when you choose sin?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 26, 2004.

Let's do it And & TC; give me til Sunday though; work and stuff.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), November 27, 2004.

" I see degenerating forces bending the thread in another direction."

Schismatic "Catholic" propaganda is only one of the myriad of degenerative forces awaiting to devour the unwary Catholic.

"why the Pope kissed a book that relegates the Second Person to a Tier #2 Prophet."

If a Muslim kissed a Catholic Bible, would a Catholic feel more amenable to dialogue with that Muslim? The answer is Yes. Would a sensible Catholic think that such a Muslim accepted Jesus as the Messiah, each Person of the Holy Trinity as co-equal, Mary as the Mother of God, the Holy Eucharist as the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and for that matter, the entire Nicene Creed, simply by kissing the Catholic Bible? The answer is no.

A Muslim does not become a Catholic just by kissing the Catholic Bible. He needs the Holy Sacraments. Pope (St.) John Paul II did not become a Muslim just by kissing the Qur' an. He had not declared that Muhammad was God's final messenger on earth; and will never do so.

The explanation, imho, is quite simple: JPII is merely showing respect. I see it as an ice-breaker, a tension-reliever, for the centuries of hatred between Catholics and Muslims.

"you're not fit to lick his boots"

Neither are you fit to untie his sandals; because he is the Servant of the Servants of God.

"not over in Pravda."

Correction: more like a bastion of Truth.
Still harboring hedge rage?


-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), November 30, 2004.

I see the banne is for new Catholics. I would plead with the new Catholics to not et too involved with the CCD or other classes purporting to teach catholic doctrine.

They contain much heresy and given time you will lose your faith. I have first hand experience in this so I know whereof I speak.

Get on the web and find out all that you can about real Catholic tradition and a valid Mass. Your soul is at stake!

-- Juniper (Laramee34@pacbell.com), December 06, 2004.

'The honest man,' writes Fr. Wathen, 'cannot help seeing that the last three Popes (omitting all mention of Pope John Paul I) have contributed positively, powerfully and directly toward fulfilling the Masonic program for the radical transformation of the Church.' (Ascend, p. 424). Oxfort concludes that the Popes of Vatican II, 'beginning with John XXIII, have systematically betrayed the great body of Catholic Social Doctrine that was established...on Rerum Novarum... Paul VI's 'development' which is the new name for peace' ...means the merging of the 'two opposing blocs of the superpowers into a vast, collectivist gulag. And the conciliar Church is the principle instrument to bring this unification of the whole human race about, because she is the 'sacrament and sign...of all mankind' (Lumen Gentium 1).'

"...What separates the authentic Catholic Social Doctrine from the evil illusions of the Popes of the catastrophic Vatican II is this: the former is centered on Jesus Christ, the Divine Redeemer of the world from all its social ills. The Popes of Vatican II, on the other hand, center their heresies on 'modern man' and, as the Revolution demands, relate 'all things on earth' to 'man as their center and crown. (Gaudium et Spec 12)' (Christian Counter- Revolution 57).

Current events corroborate the view that the post-Vatican II Roman Church, controlled by the global planners, will be the instrument to bring about the unification of mankind. Separate meetings this week of Israeli Foreign Minister Ariel Sharon and Yassar Arafat with Pope John Paul II at the Vatican will include invitations to attend the Bimillennial celebrations, such as Bethlehem 2000:

-- TC (A@b.com), December 07, 2004.

Something certainly has happened in the past forty years that makes the Church unrecognizable from the Church of the centuries.

-- Keith (Proscob@aol.com), December 07, 2004.

Yes, just as the Church of Augustine's time was vastly different from the Church of Apostolic times, and the Church of Medieval times was vastly different from the Church of Augustine's time. It's called growth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 07, 2004.

"Yes, just as the Church of Augustine's time was vastly different from the Church of Apostolic times, and the Church of Medieval times was vastly different from the Church of Augustine's time."

Paul,

if you mean timber vs brickwork, you have a real point here.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 07, 2004.

I call it adaptation.

The Church will adapt to whatever place it will infiltrate.

A church that does not adapt dies.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 07, 2004.

"A church that does not adapt dies."

a powerful statement Elpidio. however, i bet there are tenets of your faith that you perceive to be immutable? this is the source of all Catholic vs Catholic argy-bargy. working out which stuff you can never throw out.

example: there can NEVER be female Catholic priests. NEVER EVER. female ordination is, however, an adaption.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 08, 2004.

Never say Never, Ian.

I have seen in my lifetime stuff I never imagine would happened at the Catholic Church.

I still remember Catholic Masses in latin in the 1960s in my little town church.

Since then, the number of changes has been really great. Examples: holding hands, lifting hands, girls at the altar, deacons, charismatic gifts, host n your hand,.....

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 08, 2004.

good points Elpidio.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 09, 2004.