I was wondering...I've asked this before but never gotten a straight answer...you have to be catholic, or in ignorance of catholicism, to get into heaven? If you are not, is everything else about your life null and void? It seems to me that would rule out some really great people. What about Martin Luther King? He was a Christian, he lived his life by the Bible, and he worked tirelessly for civil rights and peaceful coestistance between all people. Or what about Ghandi? What about George Washington? What about all the average people who spend their weekends (after church, of course) helping out at the local homeless shelter, but who aren't catholic? Are all these people bound for hell? It doesn't seem right.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), November 30, 2004

Answers

I was wondering...I've asked this before but never gotten a straight answer...you have to be catholic, or in ignorance of catholicism, to get into heaven?

{Gods grace is salvific, so Protestants may be saved, or any other Christain, if they either do not udnerstand cahtolisism or are not introdiced to it as truth. If they know its the turth and reject it they are damend only. I beelive this is the Cahtlic beleif. However, those who do not know its ture and are sincere can still be saved.}- Zarive

If you are not, is everything else about your life null and void?

{Its not abotu good or bad, its abotu content of charecter... after all isaiah said all our righeousnes is as filthy rags.Paul said none are righeous, no, not one, in romans. sin will leav eus laden before God.}-Zarove

It seems to me that would rule out some really great people. What about Martin Luther King? He was a Christian, he lived his life by the Bible, and he worked tirelessly for civil rights and peaceful coestistance between all people.

{He also practiced perverse sex acts... he wasnt as pure and clean as the modern image makes him, and we are all sinners lad. Noentheless I cannot speak to the matter of his sils salvation, that is betwen him and God.}-Zarove

Or what about Ghandi?

{Better man than king, but all the same we cannot speak to who God does and does nto have mercy on. Only God knows there souls content.}- Zarove

What about George Washington?

{You mean the traitor? He swore an oath to serve the british forces... Harldy a "Great man". Then aain Im British...

And wasnt he episcopalian? Back when that meant soemthing?}- Zarove

What about all the average people who spend their weekends (after church, of course) helping out at the local homeless shelter, but who aren't catholic?

{Again see above, god saves wh God saves... its between them and us, and no oen can speak to it.}-Zarove

Are all these people bound for hell? It doesn't seem right.

{I think you mistake the docorine of "ex Cathedra Salvo Nulla".}- Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 30, 2004.

JPII has said on many occasions, and it is clear in Ut Unum Sint, that non-Catholics and even non-Christians may go to heaven.

MLK, Ghandi and Washington did what Jesus calls us all to do. So yes, they may be saved. They will all have a chance to accept Jesus and ALL His teachings in purgatory. But their lives on earth are already shining examples of what Jesus calls us to do, whether they knew it or not.

-- brian (brian@brian.com), November 30, 2004.

Brian, purgatory the way I understand it, isn't a second chance at salvation. It is a final purification before entering into heaven and into the presence of God for those who are already saved. So, people are not going to have a chance in purgatory to recieve Christ. If you reject Christ and his teachings while you are alive on earth there will be no second chance to do it once you have died. From what I understand about the teaching of the Church is that those who are invincabily ignorant and do not understand or were never taught the gospel can be saved. A person who has had the opportunity to recieve the gospel and rejected it or chose not to follow it will have no second chance after he has died.

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 30, 2004.

suzanne is correct, purgatory is reserved for those who have already been judged and saved. I must add, even if a person has divine truth explained to them, if it is not done in an acceptable manner so as to appropriately convince the person, there is also leeway for invincible ignorance in that the presentation of truth was not done in acceptable manner.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 01, 2004.

What about cases like that of Martin Luther King? He was born and raised in the United States. Surely he must have been exposed to Catholic teachings many times in his life, yet he died a protestant. Does that rule him out?

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 01, 2004.

again, anti bush, read my statement above. The issue at hand is not acceptance of Catholic teaching, but acceptance of Catholic TRUTH. if the truths were not adequately presented to Martin Luther King Jr. such that a rational person should necessarily understand them and accept them, then that leaves room for a case of invincible ignorance to be made. If, however, that truth WAS adequately presented and he chose to reject it, then that severely limits the case for invincible ignorance. HOWEVER, there are still a few extenuating circumstances which always ensure and are the reason why we are unable to judge that which is between God and man. God will save whomever He chooses, it is merely our job to make that as easy on God as possible by conforming ourselves to His divine will.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 01, 2004.

We have a confused child here again. ''asked this before but never gotten a straight answer-- you have to be catholic, or in ignorance of catholicism, to get into heaven? --If you are not, is everything else about your life null and void?''

That isn't how the Church teaches the Gospel, anti-- You're misled by the ''Catholic'' mark of Christ's true followers. It stands for ''universal''. Being saved as a Catholic merely means a soul is set apart as Christ's own; conformed to the teachings of His Church; sanctified. This would be in accordance with the teaching of His apostles. (That's one other mark, apostolic; there are four in all.)

All other manners of reaching Jesus and salvation through Him are extraordinary; and He allows some souls the necessary leeway; as it pleases His Almighty Father in heaven. Not as it pleases the particular soul, who has done little or nothing to conform to the Church's teachings. Jesus said it Himself, ''All things are possible with God.''

The proper way to come to salvation is not as -- ''some really great people. [Might come] What about Martin Luther King? He was a Christian, he lived his life by the Bible, and he worked tirelessly for civil rights and peaceful coestistance between all people. Or what about Ghandi? What about George Washington? What about all the average people who spend their weekends (after church, of course) helping out at the local homeless shelter, but who aren't catholic?''

What ABOUT them? Can any of these fine people save themselves, by external works, or a false faith? NO. Only Christ can give them salvation. It happens that He has the divine power of granting them membership in His flock even when they dismissed His holy Church. But it isn't the norm. It's the exception that proves the norm.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 01, 2004.

Darn, I'm doing it again.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 01, 2004.

Invincible ignorance , if there is such a thing, is for God alone to judge.

As for George Washington; He died a Catholic with a priest in attendance. In fact, one of the slaves present said, "Master's gone and joined them Romans"

-- glory W. (WandaG@yahoo.com), December 01, 2004.

"..he was a Christian and he lived his life by the Bible..."

Did he? There is no doubt he did some very good things. But, I seem to rember Paul C., and a few others saying he didn't.[as far as the Ladies go]

The only thing you can do for him is pray for his soul, and also pray that Olly and LUG comes back to the holy Catholic Church because the Church is very clear with this.

May God bless you Oliver(and Jesse) and bring you both home with His Grace.

-- - (David@excite.com), December 01, 2004.

I pointed out that king was no Saint. Not to disparage the man, but relaly the image of the faultless leader of desegregation is overplayed, and we idolise the man, and orget that, like us, he was just that, a man, and a sinner. ( He was heavy into womanising, and a few other queationable practices invovling chemical sybstances. Nonetheless, he was not wholly evil either, he was mrley Human. The image of greatness we erect forbids us often to see this truth of Dr.King. But, like Hitler, it is a truth we all must confront, and, scarier still, hitler is seen as inhuman, yet, reading his writtings, we see just how human he was... and htat is the scariest fact of them all.)

As to General Washington, you all know my background and htus my perspecive on that "great" man. He was till a traitor to his oath to serve and protect our naiton, leader of insurection and civil war, and htus open treason, agisn thte crown, was a slave owner, and a land theif. Americans often also overlook these facts and lionise his image.

Again, Anti-Bush, we are all sinners. None of these men where great, they whwre all vile wretches who, if saved at all, where saved by grace. This by no means makes me say i ma better than them ( well, OK, maybe better than washington...) nonetheless, we shoil never see them as better than men, they where men, elevate din our midns by deeds most notable, but largley that depended as much on cercumstance as Charecter.

None are deservant of any recognition above there deeds, and all where men, and snners, and next to christ nothign but tattered rags in contrast to a royal robe.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 01, 2004.

I think our Lord Jesus said in St. Luke's gospel, "Whoever is not against us, is for us." That gives me hope that many who do not understand or appreciate Catholic teaching are nevertheless open to God's grace. Remember Cornelius in Acts 10, who was pleasing to God even before he became a Christian.

Dear Glory W., Do you have solid information about this supposed deathbed conversion of George Washington to Catholicism? I have also heard the claim he was baptized by a Baptist minister. Anyway, if Washington was indeed baptized Catholic, that would be most interesting, and it would explain a lot about Washington's studied silence in religious matters. After all, having Catholic sympathies was not "politically correct" in 18th century America!

Dear Zarove, I can't deny the traitor label, but George Washington was against slavery. He made sure his slaves were released. But most of the slaves at Mt. Vernon were owned by Martha and her family.

Cordially,

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 03, 2004.

Washington was a man of prayer. The paintings we have of him kneeling in the snow at Valley Forge are based on fact. He was reported by soldiers who knew him well to pray with great regularity; he officially ordered Sunday to be a day of rest, as far as might be possible, so that his soldiers might be able to attend church. Again, somewhat like Saint Paul, it is reputed that God rewarded his prayer with mystical experience. We have a written description of “a singular beautiful female” who addressed him, saying “Son of the Republic, look and learn,” as she showed him visions of the destiny of the Republic and its place in history.[v]

A lot of controversy surrounds the story of Washington’s deathbed conversion to the Catholic Faith. There probably will never be certainty about it. Clearly, if such a thing took place, there would have been many among the Protestant majority who would not have wanted it made known. But we were reminded by both Pope Leo XIII and Pope Pius XII, that Washington was on close terms with the first American Bishop, John Carroll—Pope Pius referred to their friendship as “a proof that reverence for the Faith of Christ is a holy and established principle of the American people.”[vi] If the account of Washington’s Vision is correct, we Catholics know who the “singular beautiful female” had to be. We know that Washington’s effects were found to contain a picture of the Blessed Virgin and another of Saint John, and that he made the Sign of the Cross before saying grace. We are told that “About four hours before Washington's death, Father Leonard Neale, a Jesuit priest was called to Mount Vernon from St. Mary's Mission across the Piscataway River [and] Washington ... was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church that night.”[vii]

-- GloryW (WandaG@yahoo.com), December 03, 2004.

GloryW said: We are told that “About four hours before Washington's death, Father Leonard Neale, a Jesuit priest was called to Mount Vernon from St. Mary's Mission across the Piscataway River [and] Washington ... was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church that night.”[vii]

This is most interesting. Where are you quoting this from? Thanks :)

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), December 04, 2004.

bold off. sorry

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), December 04, 2004.

Yes, Glory W., where did you get that great quote? Utterly fascinating. Many thanks.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 04, 2004.

Well I googled it and found this:

ht tp://bellsouthpwp.net/O/L/OLRosary/sermons/july4_2004.htm. See paragraphs 5-6. Now, whether this information is reliable is another question.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), December 04, 2004.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/O/L/OLRosary/sermons/july4_2004.htm

This is the same as the one aabove. I hope that it connects

-- Glory W. (WandaG@yahoo.com), December 04, 2004.

Zarove,

Better than Washington? How many countries have you liberated? How many groundbreaking democracies have you created? Do we, as Americans, inherit a country founded on treason? You bet we do, and we're damn proud of it. Sometimes it takes treason to get things done. As it says in the Declaration of Independence (and speaking of which, don't see National Treasure, it sucks...just trying to save everybody from wasting 9 bucks on a crappy movie), when a government is corrupt and neglects the will of the people, it is their duty to change it, by any means necessary. If it were 1776, I'd be on the front line with a rifle in my hand ready to kick some English butt.

As for King's proclivity toward the ladies...whatever. We're all humans. So he dabbled in womanising ALLEGEDLY. We've all got our weaknesses. Ladies were his. I believe his civil rights work and the progress he made toward equality overshadows that. Just my take...it's up to God. I think at the end of the day he was still a pretty good guy, and that's really all any of us can hope to be; just a lighter shade of gray.

It's funny how bigger people seem to have bigger problems. Famous people's problems always seem bigger than just some regular person's. But really we're all sinners. Some people think that to be in the spotlight, you have a responsibility to be better than most people...you have to be above the weaknesses of the average joe. I was reading a biography of Che Guevara by John Lee Anderson (a very good read, even if you're not a "liberal commie pinko" like me), and I thought it was interesting how fervently he believed that. He thought that if he was going to be a role model for revolution, he was going to have to live his life to a higher standard than everyone else. He worked nonstop, he refused to eat any expensive foods (even as a guest in someone's house), he volunteered every day off, including holidays, to work in the factories with the common workers, he tried to stay completely away from indulging himself in anything...in short, he tried to be perfect. But in the end, all it did was make him unhappy. He ruined two marriages, countless friendships, his relationship with all his family...he died a lonely, bitter person. His attempt to be a perfect person to the outside world only destroyed him inside. I know I'm kind of going off in a tangent here but I just thought it's an interesting thought...how fame can create such a paradox in a person.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 04, 2004.

Rev 21:2 Shows the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, prepared as a bride for her husband.

This city therefore is not a physical city, but a corporate person, the church.

Thus, the eternal dwelling place for believers is upon the Earth, not "Heaven".

Furthermore, we believers are being constituted and transformed to become the very eternal habitation of God.

The precious stones described in Rev are the transformed, built up members of the body of Christ.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), December 08, 2004.

Oh boy. Maybe I shouldn't but... Martin Luther King was a great man...but he was gunned down after spending the night at a motel with two women who where not his wife. Now, I know people have canonised his work and the civil rights movement in general, but that doesn't mean he personally was above all criticism.

I think the best we can say is... he was conselling them. But that situation still hangs there like a rusty nail needing someone to either pull it out or pound it home.

If any of us had spent a night with two women, in a motel room, and things went from Platonic to physical...and then in the morning we stepped out on the balcony to speak with our entourage and Pow! were gunned down, possibly killed instantly... I don't think we could assume our way into Heaven because of a lifetime of good service.

All the more reason to live in the state of grace...as we really don't know the day or the hour.

I'm NOT judging him to be damned. I think it's a serious 50/50 that he committed adultery the night before or morning before he died. If so, it's a 50/50 whether or not he sincerely repented either before realizing he was on his way out, or in the seconds of life and consciousness he enjoyed between impact and death.

Let us hope. But depending on how you look at it, he either has a 75% or 25% chance of having died in serious, unrepentant and recent sin.

It would be a shame for anyone especially one who did alot of good or whose cause was just... but neither can we just suppose he's in heaven shining like the sun.

As both the old and new testaments make clear, past wonderful work isn't of itself insurance of salvation. One would HOPE a man who did alot of good for others had the grace to be sincerely repentant of serious sin before the end... but by accounts of eyewitnesses he wasn't expecting to be shot that morning.

I think the above is all the more reason such assassinations are so horrible - they don't give the victim time to even pray.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 08, 2004.

Notwithstanding the man's excellent work for civil rights, (it was formidable) he was a sinner in the end. Hopefully an avenue of grace opened in his final moments.

It illustrates plainly the deficiencies of a protestant faith undergoing decay. Southern Baptists in the main are decent enough Christians. Some may be very zealous. But the faith taught in most Southern Baptist communities appears deeply flawed to someone brought up in the Catholic Church.

I watched TV one night where a large group was gathered discussing a variety of subjects, mostly social or cultural. One guest was Darryl Daw.kins; a former basketball star, African American. He seemed a dominating personality, certainly a great physical specimen. The subject came around to sexual prowess and, inevitably Darryl's sins.

He exposed for a minute a number of items related to his religious upbringing; black Southern Baptist. He stated very cheerfully: ''I can do any damn thing that strikes me; if it's bad, well-- I can sell dope, I can pimp or have sex with somebody's wife; or any sin I please. I ain't in danger of damnation, either; because all I have to do is;

I'll go with the Preacher Man and he'll pray over me, just say some loud words up to heaven, and I'M HEALED; FORGIVEN! --I can go straight to heaven tomorrow! Yuck, yuck, yuck.''

I would hate to think everone who attends their meeting house interprets God's Word quite that simply. But it explains what we see on MTV, rap recordings, and other black cultural outlets.

And; so that no one interprets this as a rant against black people, let me say also: Our former president Jimmy Carter finally gave up his life's membership in the same Baptist Church ( Southern White congregations) a few yaers ago. He said publicly he could no longer live with the serious faults he saw approved, condoned and even upheld by their clergy and current leadership; in that church. This must have been very painful for him to say, who had always been known as a man of faith. Just as Martin Luther King had been.

Catholics have also had scandals, we acknowledge. We remain faithful however, because throughout history the faith is not compromised or corrupted, no matter how shameful some Catholics act in this world. For this let us thank our Popes, and naturally the Holy Spirit. And even we must remain watchful as individuals, against the world, the flesh and the devil.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 08, 2004.

Zarove, you left out that the “great” George Washington was also a war criminal and a cold-blooded killer, ordering the execution of a group of French soldiers who had come peacefully on a diplomatic mission, when there wasn’t even a war on.

So Michael,”George Washington was against slavery” because “most of the slaves at Mt. Vernon were owned by Martha and her family.”!?! Probably for tax purposes! :-) And I bet he refused to eat a meal cooked by “her” slaves, or wear clothes washed by “her” slaves, or enjoy profits from the produce of the fields worked by “her” slaves? Some people can convince themselves of ANYTHING if they really want to.

As for Glory W’s unsupported story of this treasonous war criminal converting to Catholicism, or her outrageous claim to “have a written description of “a singular beautiful female” who addressed him, saying “Son of the Republic, look and learn,” as she showed him visions of the destiny of the Republic and its place in history”, what a load of emetic codswallop. How can he be a son of the Republic when he was the father of the Republic? LOL!

Anti-bush, your attitude is no different from the communists you claim to detest. (“inherit a country founded on treason? You bet we do, and we're damn proud of it. Sometimes it takes treason to get things done. … when a government is corrupt and neglects the will of the people, it is their duty to change it, by any means necessary”) The will of the majority of the people was to remain with Britain, or neutral. But Washington and his minority who wanted independence forced it on the majority and then forced the loyalists into exile in Canada (where they attacked them again 20 years later).

So Joe you convict MLK of “spending the night at a motel with two women who where not his wife”. Jesus spent a lot of time with women including prostitutes, and similar innuendos were made. Did it occur to you that MLK had a lot of powerful enemies with the motivation and the means to make up and manufacture “evidence” for a story like this? Did it occur to you that if MLK had wanted a bit of adultery he would have arranged a rendezvous alone and incognito, not on a public trip through the heartland of his enemies accompanied by his entourage, knowing his every move was being watched?

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 08, 2004.

The motel incident is true, Steve. MLK was taped during the adultery/fornication, by the FBI, as I recall. It was a sordid end to a great career. Very tragic, seeing how he died. That's the breaks, Kid.

About Washington, who knows? Myths abound around that type of historical figure. he was probably no saint.

But who's to say he didn't receive baptism before his death? Can you say that with total assurances? No.

If he did, we should be joyful. Even you who claim here to know ''all the dirt.'' He is preceded into heaven, maybe; by many other souls who repented.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 09, 2004.

Thankyou for the good intentions of your heart David. Perhaps we should start a new thread discussing the church, how we both feel about it, its significance in our lives etc. I think it'd be a good opportunity to have some fellowship about a very crucial aspect of the Christian life.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), December 09, 2004.

Zarove, Better than Washington? How many countries have you liberated?

{He didnt liberate any cuntry, he lauched a civil war in defiance ot the legal authority of the American colonies. relly Americans have this insane notion that ameirca was an independant naiton that was occupied by Brittian, dispite the fact that they came to America to preserve there british Heratage...

Did the south try to "Liberate" the confederate states of America? If not, then why shudl I treat this Civil war, the secpnd in my naitons Hisotry, any differently than you yanks treat the one with Lincon and all? washington was no better than Cromwell.}-Zarove

How many groundbreaking democracies have you created?

{If I ever found a naiton, why make it a democracy? And as for Groundbreaking, America was neithe the irst of its kind, as rome had her beat y millinia, nor was she even the firts constitutional Govenrment. Moses beat them there, just read the Ocnstitution of Israel, knwon as the Torah.Its in your Bible.}-Zarove

Do we, as Americans, inherit a country founded on treason? You bet we do, and we're damn proud of it.

{With Pride cometh contention, and rebellion is as thr sin of witchcraft.}-Zarove

Sometimes it takes treason to get things done.

{ Yes, so sid Lenin...}-Zarove

As it says in the Declaration of Independence (and speaking of which, don't see National Treasure, it sucks...just trying to save everybody from wasting 9 bucks on a crappy movie),

{I liked National Treasure... a fun romp...}-Zarove

when a government is corrupt and neglects the will of the people, it is their duty to change it, by any means necessary.

{ Change yes, commit acts of wanton treason agaisnt, no. Parlement was open to recieve complaints, and they coidl have easily gone through proper channels.}-Zarove

If it were 1776, I'd be on the front line with a rifle in my hand ready to kick some English butt.

{ My ancestors fought and shot at richard Stockton of New Jersey, a signer of the declaration of Independance. Its fairly clear that, if it where me, I woidl will to try to avid the insurection, btu if not posisbel I woidl try to secure the unity of the British empire. Hey, what can I say, Im not American. odnt expect me to get misty and sentimental over it.}-Zarove

As for King's proclivity toward the ladies...whatever. We're all humans.

{I beleive that was my point. We are all wretched sinners, and all our righeousnes sis as tattered rags...}-Zarove

So he dabbled in womanising ALLEGEDLY.

{Its more than mere allegation, its known hisotrical fact. He was even cauht on tape havign sex with two of them, and many many more came forward, only to be slenced because we didnt want to ruin the reputation of the "Great" civil rights leader. He was jus man who did a greatthing, btu was no moral giant himself.}-Zarove

We've all got our weaknesses.

{Again, that was my point...}-Zarove

Ladies were his.

{And boy howdy did he ever give in...}-Zarove

I believe his civil rights work and the progress he made toward equality overshadows that.

{But are you God who can judge sin? Does God relaly palce his civil rights work above his womaniding? Is it fair to let himinto Heaven based on the good deeds he did and not the content of his chareter? Didnt King himself famosuly say we shoidl be judged by the contet of our charecter? His works her eon earth, though good and nessisary, do not secure his salvation, nor make him a good person by default.}- Zarove

Just my take...it's up to God.

{Exaclty, and God doesnt care abouthe good he did in ife or the bad, he cares abouhte content of his soul. His good deeds in securign civil liberties to Minorities do not cover his personal faults an make him worthy of Heaven, only personal obedience and repentnece of sins do that.}-Zarove

I think at the end of the day he was still a pretty good guy, and that's really all any of us can hope to be; just a lighter shade of gray.

{God offers me more than Grey, and I follow God. If you can only be Grey, you mis sout on the full life Jesus promised. Greatness of charecter is possible, afte all, look at Ghandi. even Ghandi wasnt perfect, but he was noentheless a man of great charecter. even Libncoln wa a man of Great charecter. We are all sinners, btu some are far more than dull grey colours, many are shimmering exampels of Virtue, from mother Teresa to St. Jerome to Mahatma Ghandi to even obscure peopel we don even oknow!}-Zarove

It's funny how bigger people seem to have bigger problems. Famous people's problems always seem bigger than just some regular person's.

{Not to me, and not to God.}-Zarove

But really we're all sinners.

{Which i reitenrate was my point...}-Zarove

Some people think that to be in the spotlight, you have a responsibility to be better than most people...you have to be above the weaknesses of the average joe.

{Im sure saddam, Mao, and Hitler disagree with you...}-Zarove

I was reading a biography of Che Guevara by John Lee Anderson (a very good read, even if you're not a "liberal commie pinko" like me), and I thought it was interesting how fervently he believed that. He thought that if he was going to be a role model for revolution, he was going to have to live his life to a higher standard than everyone else. He worked nonstop, he refused to eat any expensive foods (even as a guest in someone's house), he volunteered every day off, including holidays, to work in the factories with the common workers, he tried to stay completely away from indulging himself in anything...in short, he tried to be perfect. But in the end, all it did was make him unhappy. He ruined two marriages, countless friendships, his relationship with all his family...he died a lonely, bitter person.

{Then what good where his efforts? He knew not balamce and knew not the ways of the Lord, which brign fulfllment.}-Zarove

His attempt to be a perfect person to the outside world only destroyed him inside.

{He shudl have attempted ot be a better person inside, and not utside...A common error.}-Zarove

I know I'm kind of going off in a tangent here but I just thought it's an interesting thought...how fame can create such a paradox in a person.

{Ots not abotu fame, its abotu not puting them on pedistools.The other end of the specturm is we turn a blond eye and pretend the entirety of thes emens lives where psotless, when they wherent.}- Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 09, 2004.

Eugene, not to get into conspiracy theories, but I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to consider the possibility that racist elements in the FBI at that time may have faked the taped “evidence”. They also accused MLK of being a Communist.

I didn’t deny the possibility of Washington having converted to Catholicism. I certainly hope he did. I just said that Glory W’s story was “unsupported”. I don’t claim to "know all the dirt", but what he did to the Frenchmen is public knowledge. See http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041029.html

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 09, 2004.

For myself, I'm very sympathic to King. Who wouldn't be?

But we know there exist undercurrents in American protestantism. Not imaginary; consistent and well-known. I've a good friend in San Diego now in his 70's. He's not Catholic, not even religious. He was born & raised in New Orleans.

We talked about Jimmy Swaggart, around the time of that evangelist's public disgrace. Jimmy, (my friend) said to me-- ''Gene, in the South it's very common for popular preachers to have women always throwing themselves at them, like groupies. Swaggart is no saint, but that's no deep secret to anybody who knows the preachers' lifestyles around the South. They make so much money on their circuits, and girls swarm to them. The problem is, he was busted in public and couldn't hide.''

This from a southerner with no axe to grind. If Martin Luther King was innocent, no one is galadder than me. But it's water under the bridge, anyway. God has to either vindicate or damn them sooner or later; not us. We have only one soul to worry about. Our own. That's what equality should mean in the long run. Each one of us comes naked to the last judgment.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 10, 2004.

Why the knee jerk need to slime some other historical figure, like Geo. Washington, who didn't die in tragic circumstances, when someone you lionize is mentioned to have so died?

The question wasn't did MLK do mainly good things or bad things in his life, but whether or not he was in heaven. That's where the last 24 hours of his life become vital to the question.

Geo.Washington may very well have killed people in cold blood. But no more than ARAFAT who received the Nobel Peace Prize for signing a piece of paper promising peace, (afterwhich he then launched the intafada war)!

In the case of Washington, all the fighting occured early in his life, and as far as history can tell us he was pacific and Christian towards the end. No reason to believe he didn't repent of early sins later in life.

But there is reason to believe neither Arafat nor MLK had the chance to repent given the way and circumstances of their deaths.

Jesus conversed with public sinners IN PUBLIC, not in private. Not in his home. So that analogy won't fly. He also didn't absolve them of sin by claiming prostitution or fornication wasn't a sin. He forgave them of sin and then taught them to not do it again. Hardly the actions of Arafat *who never renounced violence or MLK who at least in lifestyle joined with many of the other male black leaders in being unfaithful to their marriage vows (Jesse Jackson anyone?)

Again, you want to absolve these men their sins because their work was good, but then dump on Geo. Washington? Or is it, you want them absolved for personal sins as they were drawing their last breaths, because other historical figures committed similar sins early in life too?

Don't you see the fundamental difference between a Constantine who is baptised late in life and a Hitler who was baptised early but then spent his whole adult life sinning and then committed suicide?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 10, 2004.

I dumped on boht of them... actualy...

And my poitn was that God decided who is and is no in heaven, and the human revernece we give these men is immaterial.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 10, 2004.

zarove,

before you cut too harshly against america, perhaps you should consider that the current status of your country is ALSO only because the brits once revolted and killed their king in a bloody revolution. stating that america is guilty of treason is pointing out the speck in our eye and ignoring the plank in your own... after all we just seperated from the country and left the king alive, you all TOOK the country from the king and had him murdered in a public square. which is worse zarove?

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 10, 2004.

As Catholics we believe in the grace of forgiveness - that God will forgive a soul who repents of the worst evil. So the question then becomes with respect to the dead, like Arafat, MLK, Geo. Washington, JFK, etc. "what was their state of soul when they died?"

Constantine was a pagan and killed alot of people. As a catecumen he fought and killed people. But after his baptism... I don't recall him being a bad guy.

Hitler was baptised but repudiated his faith by his teens - and never looked back.

MLK, Geo. Washington, and Arafat were all non-Catholics. Of the three, GEO.Washington presided over more good than the others unless you are of the opinion that the USA has been one complete moral failure. (and if so, then you will contradict the Holy Father who has repeatedly praised the nation for what we have accomplished to date).

Of the three, GEO. died after his political career and a retirement that gave him time for repentance. No one claims he killed French soldiers in cold blood the morning he died of the flu.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 10, 2004.

Paul H, the irts Civil war with Cromwell isnt exaclty fondly remmebered. Least of all by me, since I am decened form the man they killed. I decend from the Stuart Monarchy, and am o the blood of charles the second.

My ancestors, as well as over half the nation at the time, where fully on the dside of the King. ( and Bonnie Prince Charlie became King, it is form his illegitimate sireage that I owe mybirth in pater centuries).

Cromwell was likewise a traitor, and deserved death.

Nonetheless, my main point is that all have sinned, and noen are righeous before God, and rather they ar ein ehaven or not depends on God's judgement, not my own.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 11, 2004.

Dear Steve,

I did not deny that George Washington profited from the presence of slaves at Mt. Vernon. There is a bit of hypocrisy in all of us, I suppose, including Thomas Jefferson who was outraged by slavery yet never had the fortitude (or cash flow) to give them up. I just ask you to read Washington's Last Will and Testament as to his opinions on slavery.

Thanks.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 11, 2004.

Nonetheless he and Jefferson ( Jefferson beign worse than Washington, and to this day is declared "The Grerat Betrayer" byut he cherokee) owned slaves. Sayign tis worng and performign it dosnt make one better than not saing its wrong and doign it. indeed it makes you worse.

Let me tell you a story, and tlel me if I sound better or worse to you. dotn worry all, tis fictionsl.

I am having an affair with a married woman. Yes, I know adultery is wrong, but I love her and don wat to ruin her marriage. Now, if I had my way adultery woidl be eiminated, hwoever, we live ina rral world. so, evn though I don want you to commit adultery, please excuse me while I continue my affair wiht a married woman. My beleive and string conviciton is that Adultery is wrong and shouidl never be commited. Noentheless, I will continue, even though tis an outrage to me, becasue i cant bare to give up the pelasures this woman grants me.

Now, in the above, do I sound noble?

Why dos washington sound noble in his last will and testament? because we want him to be noble, and try to justify the parts we disliked about him. Such is the problem with "great men of Hisotry". they where men, nothing more.Before Jesus, none, not richard the Lonheart, not Joan of Acr, not Mahatma Ghandi, none, where righeous. all have sinned, and all flal short of the Glory of God.

This siad, please dont whitewahs men you admire, they had there fuakts, as we all have, and Washington isnt even veiwed the same way everywhere in the wrld. Lest we stray frm the Kord, and think a mere man is great, keep in mind that even St.Peter, the trusted leader of the Aostles, denied our Lorrd thre times and ran like a coward before his crucifiction. Mens hearts fial them, only the Lord is true.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 12, 2004.