The subject of statues has come up in previous dicussions here. Some have claimed they fall under the heading of graven images. Just curious whether people here consider manger scenes at Christams time as "graven images". What about those fish you see on the back of cars? Angels?

Serious questions.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 14, 2004

Answers

bump.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 14, 2004.

I don't think the question was the statues themselves but the whether they were being worshiped. I think the point of the command from God is that we are not to create any heavenly representation from earthly elements for use in worship. The Catholic church maintains that the statues of Mary and of the Saints serve only as a reminder of the sacrifice and work the Church had to endure. Okay, well, despite what I perceive, I'll accept this explaination.

Likewise, manger scenes let us reflect on a single, yet deep event. Jesus fish would be the same as wearing a cross around the neck. These are symbols to identify the bearer with the Christian faith. Are they worshiped? I don't think so, but if they are, we'd have to call it idolatry.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 15, 2004.

Ah! it feels good to have everyone on the same wavelength.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 15, 2004.

Many Non-Catholics do not realise that God has on several occasions used images for purposes relating to His holiness:

"Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered." (Ex 25: 18-20)

"He gave also gold for the tables of proposition, according to the diversity of the tables: in like manner also silver for other tables of silver. For fleshhooks also, and bowls, and censers of fine gold, and for little lions of gold, according to the measure he gave by weight, for every lion. In like manner also for lions of silver he set aside a different weight of silver. And for the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: and to make the likeness of the chariot of the cherubims spreading their wings, and covering the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All these things, said he, came to me written by the hand of the Lord that I might understand all the works of the pattern. And David said to Solomon his son: Act like a man, and take courage, and do: fear not, and be not dismayed: for the Lord my God will be with thee, and will not leave thee, nor forsake thee, till thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the Lord." (1 Para 18: 16-20) [Chronicles to new Bibles]

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "And even to the inner house, and without all the wall round about within and without, by measure. And there were cherubims and palm trees wrought, so that a palm tree was between a cherub and a cherub, and every cherub had two faces."

And many more examples...

Catholics use images and statues to recall Christ and how he is ever present with us in our everyday lives. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. How else would the faith spread, if 80% of the population in those days could not read or write. A picture speaks a thousand words.

It is interesting to note that Protestants have pictures of family memebers in their households. If one was to measure them by the same stick that they use to beat Catholics into confessing they are idols worshippers, then Protestants too are also idolaters. I mean doesn't it say, "Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in.. the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth."

God cannot be contradicting himself if he used the brazen serpent to heal the blasphemous Israelites of the fiery serpents(Numbers 21: 8- 9) - "And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed."

I detect a little bit of 'double-standards' by Protestants

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), December 15, 2004.

"Graven" simply means "carved". A "graven image" is a 3-dimensional image, as opposed to a 2-dimensional image like a painting or mosaic. The Bible contains no prohibitions against making images, graven or otherwise. But it does contain prohibitions against idolatry - the making AND WORSHIPPING of such images, which was the common practice of pagan religions of the time. All biblical references to graven images are clearly admonitions against idolatry, not against making statues or carvings for other purposes.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 15, 2004.

Btw Andy, you mentioned Angels. Have you noticed how comfortable the unbelieving world is with angels? If you ever watched the show Touched by an Angel, you'll know that they replaced the role of Jesus with that of angels. People are so religious, but don't want religion. Their spirits crave deep faith, but believe in twisted perversions. Angels have become the object of faith and worship to a wicked generation.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 15, 2004.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 15, 2004.

Council of Trent:

"The images of Christ and of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the saints are to be had and retained particularly in churches, and due honor and veneration are to be given them; NOT that any divinity or virtue is believed to be in them on account of which they are to be worshipped, or that anything is to be asked of them, or that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old by the Gentiles, who placed their hopes in idols; BUT BECAUSE the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which these images represent; so that we through the images which we kiss...or bend the knee, adore Christ and venerate the saints, whom they represent."

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 15, 2004.

The problem with graven images is not the artwork itself--but the worship of these things. Bowing down in front of them or something like that. Asking them to grant you something as though they were listening to you. That would be idolatry.

But artwork by itself--that we do not venerate is probably not a problem.

Nativity scenes serve as decoration.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 15, 2004.

Absolutely right, Faith. And I have never yet met a person who thought a statue listened to them. However, a person might kneel before a statue while talking to the real living person represented by the statue. In that case the act of kneeling would show reverence, not for the visible inanimate object, but for the holy person whose image it is.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 15, 2004.

Faith says:

"Bowing down in front of them or something like that."

The implicit assumption here is that act of bowing implies worship. When I was in Japan, there were people who bowed when they greeted me. I assume, however that they didn't mean it as a form of worship. My guess is that they meant it as a form of respect. I imagine that even Faith would agree that Mary is deserving of our respect.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 15, 2004.

Mary is deserving of respect--but I don't think a statue of Mary is...unless you think that Mary is somehow in the statue.

People can respect people and even bow to them--but a statue???

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 15, 2004.

But Paul..,

You say:

Absolutely right, Faith. And I have never yet met a person who thought a statue listened to them. However, a person might kneel before a statue while talking to the real living person represented by the statue. In that case the act of kneeling would show reverence, not for the visible inanimate object, but for the holy person whose image it is.

Isn't this where it gets a little ify??

You don't think that worshiping a person so much that you carve an image of her and bow to her, is really bordering idolatry???

Even bowing to statues of Jesus would be questionable. Yet--how many statues of Jesus are there compared to Mary? How many shrines to Mary in comparrison to Jesus?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 15, 2004.

Isaiah 6 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said, "Go and tell this people: 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

Psalm 115 But their idols are silver and gold made, by the hands of men. They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see; they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell; they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk; nor can they utter a sound with their throats. Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.

Psalm 135 The idols of the nations are silver and gold, made by the hands of men. They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see; they have ears, but cannot hear, nor is there breath in their mouths. Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.

-- Luke Juare (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 15, 2004.

A statue is nothing more than an object that helps some people focus their attention during prayer. Some people have a "mind's eye," --- a mental visual skill that is developed enough to make a statue unnecessary. Others don't and find the image simply a way to ward off life's distractions, to keep them on track. Noone worships or prays to an inanimate object. It is the representation that is helpful to some. Why make this into more than it is?

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 15, 2004.

A manger scene justs helps people invision that historical event and story. Its just a reminder. To some its merely sentamental and harmless.

No one worships or prays to a manger scene.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 15, 2004.

Faith says:

"Yet--how many statues of Jesus are there compared to Mary? How many shrines to Mary in comparrison to Jesus? "

Actually, Faith in most of our churches there are many more images of Jesus than there are of Mary. If you walk into a Catholic Church, chances are you will see a crucifix in a very prominent position. The crucifix, of course reminds us that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. In my church, you can't miss it. It's right there in the center. We do have a statue of Mary, because of course, she is deserving of our respect. I wouldn't throw out a picture of my grandmother even though she died a long time ago. The same way, Mary is a role model for us, because she said yes to God when he asked her to do something difficult. It is not bad to be reminded of that when we go to church.

Second, all of our churches are shrines to Jesus. After all, Jesus is the center of our liturgy and of course, we believe he is really and truly present in the eucharist. Perhaps you should take a look at how our mass is laid out and you will see how important we think Jesus is.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 15, 2004.

Btw Andy, you mentioned Angels. Have you noticed how comfortable the unbelieving world is with angels? If you ever watched the show Touched by an Angel, you'll know that they replaced the role of Jesus with that of angels. People are so religious, but don't want religion. Their spirits crave deep faith, but believe in twisted perversions. Angels have become the object of faith and worship to a wicked generation. - Luke

I agree Luke. In fact, angels have become either cute little Cupids, or nice people who died and came back to help the living. The truth is that they are fearsome and powerful beings. It was an angel of God that killed the sons of Pharoah. At the same time, they make powerful allies for those on the side of God.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 15, 2004.

James

"The crucifix, of course reminds us that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. In my church, you can't miss it. It's right there in the center."

out of interest, where's the Tabernacle?

"We do have a statue of Mary, because of course, she is deserving of our respect.......The same way, Mary is a role model for us, because she said yes to God when he asked her to do something difficult."

the Blessed Virgin is not "a" role model, but "the" role model, as Jesus is. she is spotless. she was born perfect, and lived the perfect life of humble servitude to God. others, such as Mother Theresa, have answered God's call. but there's a whole world of difference between the two, and always will be, even if Blessed Mother Theresa is ultimately canonised.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 16, 2004.

That's an interesting theory Ian, but it is completely unbiblical.

The Bible teaches that no one is sinless except for Jesus. The Bible teaches that no one is perfect except for Jesus.

Mary usurps the place of Jesus, again!

Can't you see how this subtle deception can interfere with biblical truth--causing many to place their hope and trust in Mary to save them?

The Bible says that there is no other name under heaven besides Jesus, by which we can be saved.

Therefore, to believe these things about Mary and to submit your soul to her care at the hour of your death, might very well be all the trickery Satan needs to lead you astray.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 16, 2004.

Faith, in no way can you conclude that Mary is usurping Jesus from what we have said here. You are distorting the information.

1. There are more shrines to Jesus than to Mary because every Catholic Church building is a shrine to Jesus!

2. Mary points to Jesus. God has given her the role of dispensing His grace. It's not Mary's grace as God herself, but God working through her. Similar to how God worked through the apostle Paul when he said "if by all possible means I might save some". Of course it was Jesus doing the salvation work, but God was working through Paul, using him as His instrument. Mary is this on a larger scale because God preserved her from sin, the same way He created Adam and Eve without sin. The difference is that Mary chose God's way. All of the Saints in heaven are there interceding for us.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), December 16, 2004.

Like I said--it seems like a nice thing to believe about Mary. It simply isn't biblical and therefore I think it is dangerous. It is definately the reason so many Catholics are literally worshiping her-- whether you agree that that is happening or not.

Nowhere in God's Holy revelation do we read that Mary was perfect or born free from sin.

Quite the contrary--the Bible tells us that only Jesus is perfect and only Jesus was born free from sin.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 16, 2004.

Faith

I'll give you that "some" a small number of Catholics worship Mary in error. A result of improper teaching and understanding--- But can't go for your characterization of "...so many..."

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 16, 2004.

Ian asks:

out of interest, where's the Tabernacle?

The tabernacle is right in the center, behind the altar. Where it should be in my opinion. When I was a kid, the our parish went off the deep end and made the church look like a baptist church. Even hid the tabernacle behind a wall.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 16, 2004.

Faith says:

"Nowhere in God's Holy revelation do we read that Mary was perfect or born free from sin."

Where does God even begin to suggest that His revelation is soley through Sacred Scripture?

Second Faith you need to look at the evidence, not just the part that fits your preconceived notions. Jesus is at the center of our worship.

Let me pose a challenge to you Faith. If we are really Mary worshipers like you suggest, then our Mass should be filled with statements that worship Mary. After all, the center of our worship is the Mass. Perhaps you should take a look at the order of our Mass and then determine who we put first, Jesus or Mary. So, if you really believe we worship Mary, that should be a good place for you to look for the smoking gun. Good luck.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 16, 2004.

What need is there for your man-made tabernacle since Christ has come?

Aren't you under the New Covenant?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 16, 2004.

The High Priest of a New Covenant

The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, *not* by man.

Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle:

“See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said:

“The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,

...and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor,

...or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 16, 2004.

Faith,

Here is an article, which explains the significance of the tabernacle:

http://www.petersnet.net/research/retrieve.cfm?recnum=679

Now, I am still waiting for your evidence from our Mass that suggests that we worship Mary. After all, I am sure that you would agree that if we truly do put Mary ahead of Jesus, then it should be clear that we worship her at mass.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 16, 2004.

Eeks!

I never realized that believing that the bread was literally Jesus would cause you to perhaps idolize the bread? Well--that makes sense I suppose.

Now I can sort of remember all the ritualist ceremonial stuff the Priests had to do during the Sacrifice they performed on the altar.

I can remember they way they wiped everything clean with a white cloth and paraded these vessels around and they even kissed some stuff--I think I remember.

Sounds so much like what the Jews did before Christ:

Worship in the Earthly Tabernacle

Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, which had the golden altar of incense and the goldcovered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings–external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not manmade, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance–now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a manmade sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.

Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

See Hebrews 8-9

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 16, 2004.

Faith, there are thousands, if not millions of Protestant Christians who worship at the altars of various T.V. preachers, who salivate over the latest off-the-cuff "prophecy" coming down the pike, who have left their homes and families to galivant around the country sucking up the leftovers at so-called revivalist camps.

I'm sure you don't condone any of that, and neither do we condone anyone claiming to be Catholic who has actually fallen into the idolatry of Marian worship.

Would it be fair for me to say Protestants worship Kenneth Copeland, just because I see a lot of people getting goofy over the guy?

You know that the Catechism prohibits worship of anything or anyone other than God. You know that the Catholics you have come in contact with in this forum, the Catholic forum and the Trad forum do NOT worship Mary.

If you do know of anyone in particular, in person, who claims to be Catholic and who you feel is worshipping Mary, please invite them to this forum for some "corrective ministry."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 16, 2004.

I mean this in honesty, and I'm not even sure why I think this, but I have a feeling non-Catholics would be less intolerant of "images" if, instead of protraying invidual statues, a specific moment or deed was illustrated. The manger scenes we see are pictures of a certain event that we wish to remember. I can see an event before me and remember what significance it had. But an image of a person? I couldn't tell Paul from Adam. And why focus on the person him/herself and not on the work he/she did?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 17, 2004.

Luke, you have a good point. However, many times people know the story of some favorite Saints and *do* meditate on what they did for the Lord. Also, prayer cards to Saints contain some elements of the person's life. For example, one prayer card I have says something like, "Lord, May I grow to love holy mass as she did", etc.

The other factor is that we are also praising God for the work He did -- namely, creating this person and enabling him or her (through His grace) to live a holy life.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), December 17, 2004.

Luke, I think Emily has a good point there. In my view, you can't focus on the person without focusing on the work they did and the events they were involved in. That's how we really come to know someone, mainly through the deeds they do. The "person" brings to mind a summation of all the great deeds God worked through them. All those events can be brought to mind by one image of that person. For example, a statue of Abe Lincoln brings to mind the War Between the States, the Emancipation Proclamation, the Gettysburg Address, his assassination, the US nation's struggle with slavery and states' rights, etc. All in one image. It also helps to personalize the events and make them more real. In a way, honoring the person is really honoring the deeds they did by the grace of God. People are defined by the deeds they do, especially historical figures. If we recognize those deeds as gifts from God, we are honoring the gifts that God has provided through them, for our sake. Just my humble opinion.

-- ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 17, 2004.

Gail, you are also a pillar of logic! Yes, it only makes sense that, if Faith truly wishes to teach, she bring those confused believers into the "light" this forum provides.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 17, 2004.

Christians generally recognize a picture of Jesus whenever we see one. Only Catholics and those familiar with such would know one Apostle from the next.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 18, 2004.

I'm not sure a Catholic could tell the difference between an image of one apostle or the other either. The only way I know who a statue is supposed to depict is by the "title card" next to the statue, or other symbolic things like Peter carrying the keys, or Paul with the sword of truth.

No one knows what Moses really looked like either, but holding the Ten Commandments is a dead giveaway.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 18, 2004.

I notice Faith never provided any evidence from our Catholic Mass that we worship Mary. I will take it from her silence that she concedes that there is no evidence.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 18, 2004.

I have also asked Faith to provide what pagan ideas have been adopted by the Church,and still have not received an answer. She did mention once the "feasts" that we celebrate. But then I guess that would make ancient Israel pagan as well!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 18, 2004.

James,

I do not consider church to be a shrine to Jesus. And I find that you are re-sacrificing Jesus as a victim during Mass--which hardly seems like the thing we ought to do given the fact that He has entered the real tabernacle of God once for all time and is no longer a victim. His death paid for our sin, past-present and future. His sacrifice was totally sufficient and needs not be repeated again and again like the Jews had to do with the blood of animals which were not able to cover their sin sufficiently.

Jesus is seated at the right hand of God. He is our High Priest....

He will return for those of us--who by faith--belong to Him and are waiting for Him.

There is nothing in the Scriptures that indicate that His real sacrifice was not good enough and that we need to keep re-offering Him up to God for further forgiveness.

So to me--the Mass is an error.

Every other aspect of Catholicism though--is focused on a human being called Mary--or any other number of so-called saints.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 18, 2004.

So I guess we can conclude that "manger scenes" are not "graven images" in the sinful sence. Agreement can be very satisfying.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 18, 2004.

Gail--

I think every aspect of the Catholic Church follows pagan practices and rituals. As my post indicated--the rites of Babylon--complete with the veneration of images and relics, penances, pilgrimages, and other pagan rites and festivals--became part of Christian worship.

This is what the church has become--it was not the original church as Jesus instituted. You cannot find anything like this in the New Testament church!

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 18, 2004.

faith says:

"I do not consider church to be a shrine to Jesus."

That of course, is just your opinion. Which of course, you are entitled to.

Also, you have provided no evidence that we worship Mary during Mass. I take it from your silence that if you think we do worship Mary, you at least concede that we do it outside of Mass. If you think we do it during Mass, then please provide evidence.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 18, 2004.

Does the Moses statue look anything like Charlton Heston?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 18, 2004.

James.,

I never really said specifically where Mary is worshiped. I never really considered church to be the place in particular where this is done.

I think Mary is worshiped in the hearts of Catholics. This is evidenced by the vast number of shrines errected for her., and also by the Rosary--along with all the prayers about her.

A Catholic is instructed to commit their soul to her care at the hour of their death.

I feel like calling the *robot* in from "Lost in Space"--he was real good at warning people of danger....warning, warning, warning!!!! weeeeeeeeeeeee..........

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 18, 2004.

Faith says:

"A Catholic is instructed to commit their soul to her care at the hour of their death."

Could you please cite the document where we are instructed to commit our souls to her care at the hour of our death. I missed that one. I don't believe that this is a part of our catechism. But, if the teaching is there, or in one of the council documents, or an encyclical I would like to see it.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 18, 2004.

"Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" equals "committing my soul" to someone? What does that mean? My soul is committed to no-one but my Lord and Savior, who purchased its salvation by His death and resurrection. However, I will still ask Mary and all the saints in heaven and on earth to pray for me, now and at the hour of my death. If I ask my wife to pray for me, now and at the hour of my death, does that mean I have committed my soul to her instead of to Christ??

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 18, 2004.

Just a note about the "vast number of shrines to Mary." This isn't a scientific study and I really don't know how far this carries over, but I was just at a Church that happend to be called "Holy Rosary." You would think by the name that there would be plenty of "Mary."

Because of this thread, I found myself counting the statues of Jesus to compare to those of Mary. There was one traditional statue of Mary with her foot crushing the serpant. The other two statues showed her holding baby Jesus, and another holding the crucified Jesus like the Pieta. There were six individual statues of Jesus and if you count the carved stations of the Cross, there totals about 20 rederings where Jesus is central, to the three of Mary, (two of which she is holding Jesus.) I would say the ratios of Jesus to Mary are similar in most every Catholic Church I've been in.

Jesus truely is central to Catholicism. Again there are some Catholics who through lack of education or understanding are in error about Mary, but they are the exception rather than the rule. This is what I have observed and I know lots and lots of Catholics.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 18, 2004.

"I never really said specifically where Mary is worshiped. I never really considered church to be the place in particular where this is done. "

Balony! You wanted me to go out and count the number of shrines, Faith. If you never considered the "church" to be the place of this type of worship, why did you want me to count those shrines? You are flip-flopping again!! You have realized that the mass is a celebration and worship to God in Jesus Christ our Saviour. NO "Mary Worship" to be found. So, you flip-flop your tune, nice.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 18, 2004.

It's like saying...

Your church, Faith, worships all the presidents on the U.S. currency. All you have to do is go and count the number of treasury notes your congregation keeps in their billfolds, purses, and bank accounts. Hey, and don't forget all those fund raisers you all do to raise more cash. They may not worship specifically inside the church building, but I think they worship the presidents in their hearts.

Do you see how ridiculous that is, Faith?

Of course, the most obvious difference is that no president ever gave birth to Christ.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 18, 2004.

I find your arguments ridiculous and far from the point, rod!

I asked you to count the number of shrines errected for Mary--such as Fatima.....and compare that number to the amount made for Jesus.

I never said anything about churches!

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 18, 2004.

Every Catholic Church counted so far is for Christ's believers. Every Catholic Church is about Christ.

Surely, you don't find that ridiculous, now do you, Faith?

Yes, this argument is ridiculous from the very start. I do believe it was you who started the argument. Yup! I agree.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 18, 2004.

How could anyone "count the shrines" anyway? That is an impossibility.

WE WORSHIP JESUS CHRIST, Faith! We recite the Creed at every mass. Mary is only mentioned as the vessel from which Christ was born IN ALMOST EVERY SERVICE. Mary has only several feasts dedicated to her in her HONOR. The rest of the hundreds of masses said every year are soley in honor of JESUS! So where-oh-where is the evidence! It's not in our hymnal. It's not in our lectionary. It's not in our Catechism. It is only in your MIND! And for some reason, because it is in YOUR mind, that is supposed to be proof-positive that what you believe is true contrary TO ALL THE EVIDENCE!

It's as if you're expecting us to say "Well, I know I'm worshipping Jesus at this mass, but Faith says it ain't so, so I guess I gotta believe her." Or, "Faith says Constantine took over the Church and paganized it. I can't find any evidence for that, but Faith says it's so, so it must be so." And the list goes on and on and on and on . . . of endless garbage we're supposed to believe. Why? Just because Faith says so!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 18, 2004.

I just find it funny that all the people who come out of your church-- supposedly worshiping Jesus.., then go home to their rosaries or make pilgramages to Marian shrines.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 19, 2004.

I think someone already pointed out that the rosary is really a meditation on the Gospels, which makes it's focus Christ. There are only two of twenty mysteries based on Sacred Tradition about Mary. And even these two point to the power of God and the humility of Mary.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yaho.com"), December 19, 2004.

So I guess we can conclude that "manger scenes" are not "graven images" in the sinful sence. Agreement can be very satisfying. - Jim

I just want to verify we are all in agreement before the discussion travels too far down another path. "Manger scenes" are not a violation against the commandment prohibiting "graven images".

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 19, 2004.

Faith said previously:

"A Catholic is instructed to commit their soul to her care at the hour of their death."

To which I responded:

"Could you please cite the document where we are instructed to commit our souls to her care at the hour of our death. I missed that one. I don't believe that this is a part of our catechism. But, if the teaching is there, or in one of the council documents, or an encyclical I would like to see it. "

I take it you are conceding that we are not instructed to commit our souls to Mary, since you are unable to produce any evidence.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 19, 2004.

Hi Andy,

Actually my post a few above was just a back door comment on how far this thread has wandered from the original intent.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 19, 2004.

Hi Jim,

Thanks. I do think you're "backdoor" comment was right on though. From what I read in the thread, it seems that we do agree that manger scenes are not "graven images."

It's interesting to see where we get from one starting point. Who'd a thunk?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 19, 2004.

We would make a ritalin salesman rich, we have a real hard time staying on topic sometimes. I think it usually starts with Faith claiming that we Catholics worship Mary. I try to force her to prove her usual faulty logic and we move quickly down a mountain goat path. We have no idea where we are going, but boy do we make good time on the journey.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 19, 2004.