It's in CCC #2677

Wholly to her care

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 20, 2004

Answers

Link doesn't work for some reason...

CCC #2677--

Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word." By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

Wholly to her care

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 20, 2004.

But Faith you quoted the Catechism this way on the other thread:

"Catholics should surrender THEIR SOULS at the hour of their death wholly to her, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church."

Where does the Catechismal excerpt above state that we are to give Mary OUR SOULS at the hour of our death?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 20, 2004.

Lol!

Can't address the issue no matter what--huh?

First of all--I did not quote the Catechism in my post. You added those quotation marks!

I simply pointed out that the Cathechism instructs its faithful to commit the soul wholly to her care...and I was going on my memory and understanding of this CCC 2677.

Since we know that it is our soul that lives on after we pass away-- we can understand exactly what is meant by this. What else would it be that we are surrendering wholly to her care?

James was so sure I had to be wrong about this. I wonder why? Did he not like the sound of this?

I can't say that I would like it much if I were you.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 20, 2004.

Faith you said "James was so sure I had to be wrong about this. I wonder why? Did he not like the sound of this?"

James was sure you were wrong because you ARE wrong Faith! Can't you READ? Are you so blinded by your bias that you cannot even read your own BOLDED quote:

It says to "surrender THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH wholly to her care." We simply ask Mary to be with us at our death.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 20, 2004.

Faith,

In your previous post, you said:

"Catholics should surrender their souls at the hour of their death wholly to her, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church."

There is NO passage of the catechism that tells Catholics to surrender their souls to Mary.

Now, let me get to the issue at hand, which is the fact that you are very ignorant about catholicism. First of all, this is another example of convenience sampling with a little cheating mixed in. You choose one section of the catechism, change the words slightly to suggest your point of view, and then you present it as the official teaching of the catholic church.

Now if we are going to interpret the catechism, we need to consider the whole thing in its entirety. For example, paragraph 970 states:

"Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

Basically, what the catechism says is that Mary prays for us, just as you might pray for a member of your church. If you pray for someone in your church, you are not detracting from the fact that Jesus is our sole mediator, but realizing that the only way your prayers will have any value is because of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross. If your prayers are valuable, then Mary's prayers must be even more valuable because as it says in James 5:16 says: "The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much." I don't think that there is any dispute whether Mary is rightous.

Think of it this way. If I were going on a journey, I would find comfort in knowing that people back home were praying for me. It would give me strength to continue the journey. Same thing here, we know that at the hour of our death, Mary will be praying for us. That is all the passage is saying.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 20, 2004.

I note that everytime Faith is exposed for what she is is, SHE DISAPPEARS!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 21, 2004.

James and Gail--

You can try and wriggle your way around this most blasphemous teaching all you want.

According to the Catholic Catechism--Even today, you are to already have surrendered your eternal destiny wholly to her care. You are to look for Mary when you pass--because it is Mary who will take you to Jesus.

There is no such revelation in the Scriptures.

The Scriptures teach us that there is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. I know I will look for Jesus when I die. He is my Mediator and my Savior.

And Gail--I don't disappear from this board--I am quite responsible and attentive--however--I am also extremely busy at this time and can't hover around this computer waiting for you to all respond.

I do my best.

Gotta run--again. Going for my morning step class--then to church for the finishing touches on the scenery for Christmas Eve--then to the Mall for a few last minute things--then home to wrap again, collect my kids from the buses--and then I have dinner to make for tonight and some early Christmas dinner preparations. I will check in from time to time, but be sure that I am not hiding from any of you.

I hope you have as a great and hectic a day as me : )

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 21, 2004.

No Faith, Jesus is our Savior, not Mary. Your above quote from the catechism does not say that Mary is our Savior, nor does it that that we are to "surrender our souls wholly to her."

Gail

P.S. Sounds like you need a multitude of the heavenly host to accompany you on your expeditions! God SPEED!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 21, 2004.

Faith says:

"Even today, you are to already have surrendered your eternal destiny wholly to her care."

Nowhere in the catechism does it even begin to remotely suggest that. Be honest Faith, you took a piece of the catechism and changed the words to suit your point of view. That in my opinion is dishonest. Now of course, there are two possibilities here. One is that you deliberately distorted what the catechism said in order to promote your point of view. The second is that you engaged in sloppy research and writing, and didn't check your sources before you posted. The first case is absolutely inexcusable, there is no way in which such behavior can be justified. The second is not much better, especially because you refuse to apologize for your error. As Christians, we have to be very careful what we say, and it is important to double check our facts before we post. Also, when you spread false information due to your own fault, at least be christian enough to own up to it.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.

Here it is agsin James--in plain language:

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"36 Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."37 By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing38 to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 21, 2004.

Faith you said:

"Catholics should surrender their souls at the hour of their death wholly to her, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church."

The catechism in no way says this. The fact of the matter is you lied. And you persist in your lies. There is no exception clause in scripture that says it is ok to bear false witness against catholics.

At first, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and assumed you were a sloppy researcher. Now I see the true you, you are not interested in the truth, you want to win an argument at all costs, and honesty is not part of your process.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.

If you really want to understand what the Catholic church teaches, read the whole catechism.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.

Excuse me James--

But you can lie to yourself if you want--but don't lie about me. I did not lie--and you know it!

I said that Catholics are told that they should surrender their souls at the hour of their death wholly to her care, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.., and then I provided the exact Catechism 2677 for you.

Here it is again:

CCC#2677

Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word." By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

Just what is it that you are surrendering to Mary at the hour of death--if not your soul??

Give it up. I proved myself right, and you can't admit it.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 21, 2004.

Where does this text say we are to "surrender our souls" to Mary?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 21, 2004.

Gail--

What is it that you would be surrendering wholly to Mary's care at that moment when you pass--if not your soul and it's eternal destiny?

What else is there?

There is only one choice. Mary is supposedly going to lead you to her Son and eternal life.

What I wonder is this:

What if you do not surrender yourself wholly to her care when you die?

Does that mean you cannot have eternal life?

And where does it say that in the Scriptures?

See the subtle deception?

Because, conversely--if Jesus really is the only way to the Father-- and there is no other name under heaven by which you can be saved., and your looking for mary at that moment--and she isn't there.., what happens?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 21, 2004.

Faith says:

"What is it that you would be surrendering wholly to Mary's care at that moment when you pass--if not your soul and it's eternal destiny? "

Faith this is nothing but your speculation. You are taking a text and reading into it nothing but your predetermined bias. Let me ask you a question: How much time did you spend trying to think whether or not there is another explanation for that passage? Did you look at the passage in the whole context of what the church teaches? Like I said before, what you do is engage in convenience sampling. You look for selective bits of information taken out of context that can be twisted to your preconceived notions. You are looking for support rather than illumination.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.

Can you just answer the question?

What--if not your soull--are youn surrendering wholly to her care at the hour of death?

Hmm?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 21, 2004.

Like it says, Faith, "the hour of our death!" Look up 'hour' in the dictionary, then look up 'our' in the dictionary, then look up 'death' in the dictionary, and then I think maybe you'll get it!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 21, 2004.

What is required for salvation as taught by the Catholic Church? If you think about that question, you will understand what that paragraph in the catechism means.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.

I understand what the paragraph means.

It has you trusting in Mary to save you.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 21, 2004.

Faith,

You don't understand what that paragraph means, because you don't understand what the Catholic church teaches. The question you need to ask yourself is: are you searching for truth, or are you pushing an agenda. If you really want to convince people that the Catholic Church is wrong, you really need to reconsider your methods. Have you read the entire catechism? It's a long catechism and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't, but if you really want to be an honest apologist, you need to put in the time to understand the institution that you are criticizing. Similarly, how many encyclicals have you read? These are another source of teaching of the Catholic Church. There are even some that we might agree upon. For example, you should read Centesimus Annus, which is the pope's encyclical on the economy. I don't think that there is anything in there that a protestant could disagree with.

Stop with the convenince samples, Faith. If you are really and truly right, you have nothing to lose by being fair in objections to the church. Right now you are practicing propaganda, not scholarship. You are bound and determined to prove we worship Mary, but you conveniently ignore the fact that there is not one hint of Mary worship in the Mass, our primary form of worship. Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd? If we worship Mary as you suggest, one would at least think that it would show up in the Mass.

Finally, who are you doing this for? For yourself, or to glorify God? I cannot imagine that God is pleased with your convenience samples. Finally, you can't generalize from a convenience sample, if you try the results will be disasterous. Like the time the literary digest used a telephone poll to predict that Alf Landon will win the 1936 presidential race. Only the wealthy had telephones at the time. Their prediction was dead wrong, just as your predictions are.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.