A suffering sould for Christ predicted this in 1902. OurRord spoke to her. She had the most horrible stigmata of anyone in history. Here is part of what she was told;

Marie-Julie was the wonder of the many scientists who examined her continually, the scorn of unbelievers and the proud, the admiration of her lifelong friend, Monsignor Fourier, Bishop of Nantes, and of the devoted circle of those who made the diffusion of her messages to an ungrateful and unheeding world their life's work. She went to her Heavenly reward on March 4, 1941.

Blind, deaf, dumb and crippled, she had subsisted miraculously on the Blessed Sacrament alone, for the last many years of her life. Surely then, we will not pass over lightly what God has confided to her for the benefit of our own sad days. Now read Marie-Julies's prophecies concerning the new liturgy:

On November 27, 1902 (Ed. note: The seventy-second anniversary of the Miraculous Medal Apparition [November 27, 1830]) and on May 10, 1904, Our Lord warned of the new liturgy which would one day be instituted:

"I give you a warning. The disciples who are not of My Gospel are now working hard to remake according to their ideas, and under the influence of the enemy of souls, a Mass that contains words which are odious in My Sight. When the fatal hour arrives where the faith of my priest is put to the test, it will be these texts that will be celebrated, in this second period."

"The first period is the one of My Priesthood, existing since Me. The second is the one of the persecution, when the enemies of the Faith and of Holy Religion will impose their formulas in the book of the second celebration. Many of My holy priests will refuse this book, sealed with the words of the abyss. Unfortunately, amongst them are those who will accept it."

On May 10, 1904, Our Lady describes the new clergy and its liturgy:

"They will not stop on this hateful and sacrilegious road. They will go further to compromise all at once, and in one blow, the Holy Church, the clergy, and the Faith of my children."

She announces the "dispersion of the pastors" by the Church herself; true pastors, who will be replaced by others formed by Hell: "...new preachers of new sacraments, new temples, new baptisms, new confraternities."

Fruits of the New Mass "By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit." (Matt. 7:15-17) Given the foregoing, it should be plain that the New Mass was conceived for an evil purpose and constructed by evil means. It only follows that such a tree would have disastrous effects on the Church. Let us look at its fruits as reported in Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II.

The number of priests in the United States more than doubled from 1930 to 1965 to 58,000. Since then, however, the number has fallen to 45,000 and there will be only 31,000 priests left in 2020, with half of them being over 70. In 1965, only 1% of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, 3,000 or 15% of the parishes are priestless. The number of seminarians from 1965 to 2002 dropped over 90% from 49,000 to 4,700, while two-thirds of the seminaries have closed. There were 104,000 teaching nuns in 1965, while today there are a mere 8,200, a decline of 94% since the end of Vatican II. Religious orders are on the road to disappearance. Three and a half thousand were studying to be Jesuits in 1965. In 2000, the number was 389. The Christian Brothers have lost two-thirds of their members in that span of time, while the number of their seminarians has shrunk by 99%. In 2000, there were only seven. Almost half of all Catholic high schools have closed in the U.S. since 1965. Only one in four Catholics now attend Mass on Sundays. There were 338 annulments in 1968 and 50,000 in 2002. Only 10% of lay religious teachers now accept Church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent say that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent hold that one can be a good Catholic without going to Mass on Sundays. Finally, 70% of Catholics between 18 and 44 believe that the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

Who could possibly claim that there is not a crisis in the church;

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 23, 2004

Answers

bump

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 23, 2004.

TC

I'd go over to the Catholic forum and check out Eugene's feelings about this subject. He knows more about this than me. I don't know that he is right, (about devotion to the priesthood) I hope he is, but he has definite ideas about your concerns.

Ultimately, Novus Ordu is here to stay, (my belief)---I don't think it will be rescinded. Isn't the possibilty of continued revelation possible or has it been halted by words?

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 23, 2004.

There is so much going for he traditionals, that it seems a shame to offer God that blemished lamb in place of the unspoted.What is to be gained?

I have seen Eugene's writings and even though he is not the modernist that Paul is, he is just another neo-conservative.

ATTENDING TRADITIONAL CHAPELS: THE WHOLE LOAF OF BREAD

Often and rather unfortunately the members of Ecclesia Dei and the various Indult Mass groups will advise that you do not attend an "illicit" Mass which is offered by a traditional Priest who is not under the jurisdiction of the modernist hierarchy. The implication is that to follow a traditional Priest, or to attend his valid Mass, or receive his Sacraments is somehow wrong and disobedient to the Church hierarchy. Can you imagine that? If you follow those who have tried to show a positive and Catholic way out of the crisis, you may be guilty of schism! In many instances, Bishops and Priests who have led the battle for truth since early on, those completely loyal to the teachings of the Church on Faith and Morals ... these might lead you astray. However, and rest assured, if you follow Ecclesia Dei and the Indult Masses, in "full union" with the modernist hierarchy (that even Ecclesia Dei often opposes) you will be in complete accord with the Church. This is so ridiculous and not worthy of continued argument.

The question most important and central is this: To whom shall we turn, and who is in fact preserving the complete Catholic Faith? Who has a "new" Faith and a "new" Liturgy? Have the traditional Roman Catholics merely kept the Faith or have they changed the Faith? Have the traditional Priests and Parishes adopted a different Faith? The answer is obvious, the traditional Chapels, as well as the Priests and Laity who follow the traditional Magesterium and traditional Mass have preserved the entirety of the Catholic Faith while the Indult Mass only offers a small part, and this under compromise with a modernist hierarchy.

The new Conciliar Church has adopted a new Liturgy and Sacraments, fully approved by the Hierarchy. They have changed, we have not. Traditional minded Roman Catholics desire the approval of a truly Catholic hierarchy, to whom they gladly would submit their works and Apostolates. On the other hand, it would be a deadly spiritual mistake to submit to a pseudo-Catholic hierarchy imbued with modernism. If you walk in the rain, you must expect to get wet. Further, we must remember the old adage: Nemo dat quod non habet, that is to say, you cannot give what you do not have. The modernist hierarchy has more or less placed themselves outside of the Church, outside of the right to demand obedience from the faithful. We cannot take the chance of placing ourselves under an authority that is certainly suspect

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 23, 2004.

"a Mass that contains words which are odious in My Sight"

A: Of course, to apply this to the current Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, one must first assume that any words odious in the sight of schismatics are likewise odious in the sight of Almighty God, in effect saying "my will is God's will", a statement so-called "traditionalists" seem ready to make without hesitation. Faced with the choice of accepting a critique of the Mass offered by God's infallible Church vs. one offered by a schismatic splinter group, there really isn't any choice to be made.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 23, 2004.

Odious...That is the word Our Lord used to the seer. Don't dismiss that woman so lightly. She has miracles to back her up.

The woman lived on the Blesssed Host for years.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 24, 2004.

If you take the years from 1904 to the year of the new mass 1970 you get 66 years.

The new mass was instituted by pope Paul 6th 66+6= 666. The number of the beast.

I know that they have done a lot with those numbers, but who is to say that just one time is the correct one. It may be an aggregate of all those occasions.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 24, 2004.

schismatic splinter group

To whom do you refer and on what basis do you call them schismatic?

-- jake (j@k.e), December 24, 2004.

TC- Your above post falls into a catagory of long time interest to me. The whole Prophecy involves many aspects in and of society with the ultimate end game towards the Church and not just the RCC but all honest or formally honest Christian Churchs.

When people understand that social agendas are aloud to get a foothold within any church it will lead to the ultimate destruction of the Christian Church and falling away of the faithful. In these agendas you will see a tremendous amount of false Love, false communities, deception, corruption, pride basically the 7 deadly sins. Since the RCC does not as a whole change like the wind it is a tremendous roadblocks to these groups. So the workings have to done from within as we have seen over the past 30-40 years.

With our current Pope we are seeing (when you look real hard) behind the scenes destruction of some of the problems which have been brought into the Church over that time frame, But his works are limited due to his age and the corrupt underlings he has working under him.which slow down the progress.

However over this same time frame within the Churchs are a growing amount of people chosen to prepare and be prepared for the up coming battles which will be waged with in the RCC against the deceiptful people looking to destroy it. My bigger concern is for the people who will run from the Church into the arms of the Churches which have fallen already or even worse throwing theirs arms up into the air and saying those people on the left are correct and that Religion is nothing but a bunch of Hypocrisy their is no God except the man made one.

I can take this topic and associated problems in a thousand directions the question is will you stay strong in the Church and be ready to battle deception when and where you see it or will you run as many will looking for a brighter future only to be pulled deeper into the trappings of the evil one?

And the battles require that you understand cause and effects, understanding the deception in society and its changing moral structures, but most of all Praying and Asking God to provide you with the Knowledge, Understanding and the Wisdom to see and understand the issues and people when you see it or them, and to guide you on the correct course of action if any at that immediate time. Sometimes you will need to wait when you want to attack, But with you question I suspect you are already being prepared..

-- Michael G. (NoEmail@Nowhere.no), December 24, 2004.

With our current Pope we are seeing (when you look real hard) behind the scenes destruction of some of the problems which have been brought into the Church over that time frame, But his works are limited due to his age and the corrupt underlings he has working under him.which slow down the progress"

I went through the same thing that you are in now. One day someone said to me, read some of his writings before he became pope. I did and found out that he was a flaming modernist.

He was the one that appointed the "team" that he has working for him. They reflect hiswishes, so while he is old and feeble now, he was not then when he put these men into high positions.

Once I got through that barrier I could see things a lot more clearly.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 25, 2004.

As regards their policy towards 'non-Christian' heresies - Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc, the Polist actor and present antipope of the Roncallists or Roman Modernists, Charles Voltiva ('John-Paul the 2nd') has been consistently teaching the Universalist heresy - that all men will be saved. However, according to Voltiva's version of Universalism, all men are already saved by and in Jesus Christ. Thus is his book, The Sign of Contradiction, published before his 'election', he teaches, taking up Vatican 2's teaching, 'By his incarnation, the Son of God has in a certain way united himself with each man," (Constitution 'Gaudium et Spes', pg 811, para 3), that the birth of the Church ... coincided with the birth of the 'new man' — whether or not man was aware of such a rebirth and whether or not heaccepted it." ('Sign of Contradiction', pg 91). Voltiva goes on to quote Vatican II - Jesus Christ "has restored in the children of Adam that likeness to God which had been disfigured ever since the first sin." (‘Sign...' pg 101, ‘Gaudium...' pg 811, para 3, Flan.) Voltiva has repeatedly taught this heresy since his 'election'. (See Fr Louis-Marie de Blignieres, 'John-Paul II and Catholic Doctrine').

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 25, 2004.

"I went through the same thing that you are in now. One day someone said to me, read some of his writings before he became pope. I did and found out that he was a flaming modernist."

What were his writings or views that you disagreed with? And have you see those writings come into the Church? Do you believe that maybe since the time of those writings his views have changed any or some?

"He was the one that appointed the "team" that he has working for him. They reflect hiswishes, so while he is old and feeble now, he was not then when he put these men into high positions."

It is a little more involved then that however there will always be some bad selections when it comes to people, look at one of your friends you believe would be an awesome employee because of how dedicated they always talk about their jobs and on and on and then work with them for a few months and you will see a side they never told you about, that is the side that shows they are a lot of hot air and little work unless it is to their benefit. So you hope that at the end of the day you have selected enough good people to override the bad selections.

"Once I got through that barrier I could see things a lot more clearly."

And what did you see and what did you do as a result of it?

-- -- Michael G. (NoEmail@Nowhere.no), December 26, 2004.

Michael;

What I "did see" was a man who is no friend of Our Lord or of His flock. Yes, he could app0int a few bad apples, but when almost 100% of his appointments ate heretics, I figure that it is the rare good guy that is getting i by accident, not the other way around.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 26, 2004.

I forgot the other question; What I did about it was to flee the Novus Ordo church and join up with the traditionals. Few in number, but so was the early church.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 26, 2004.

"What I "did see" was a man who is no friend of Our Lord or of His flock. Yes, he could app0int a few bad apples, but when almost 100% of his appointments ate heretics, I figure that it is the rare good guy that is getting i by accident, not the other way around."

Ok that was kind of a non-answer, answer so let me ask if you have seen the following and if not, would you approve or dis-approve of his actions.

*Mandatum requiring instructors of Catholic Theology at Seminaries, Catholic Univ. sign a statement and be approved by Bishop stating that ONLY Catholic Theology will be taught without Incorporating any other Theologies such as Liberation, Feminism or such into the courses. (i.e) teaching the future Priest only Catholic Teaching and not using him for a platform of social agenda changes

*Ordering that Laypeople are not to give sermons, applauding in Church, moving the Tabernacle back to the center of the Alter, requiring greater reverence to the service by the Priest, Showing Greater respect for the Gospel of the Lord. These are only a few small changed which have been or are occurring.

*Closing down Seminaries which had become so corrupted with homosexuals or forcing the homosexuals out who had become the gate keepers at many of the Seminaries which was preventing many good people who wanted to become priest to leave it.

"What I did about it was to flee the Novus Ordo church and join up with the traditionals. Few in number, but so was the early church."

Ok I can understand that, But prior to you leaving it were you truely active in it, and did you ever think that you could take an active role in for example: religious education (CCD) in which you could insure that the truth was being taught to the children? It only requires a few hours a weeks for several months a year but wouldn't that be better to help prevent corruption of the future generations then to flee and leave them on their own? Just my thoughts no condemnation involved.

-- Michael G. (NoEmail@Nowhere.no), December 26, 2004.

Michael; We had asked our pastor to leave the tabernacle in the middle. He said that we had to change. Next thing we knew he had gutted the church, removed every semblance of the old traditions, and built a monstrosity which no longer resembled the Catholic church. This was not only in our local area, but an epidemic throughout the diocese. Don't dare mention abortion, homosexuality, no salvation outside the church, etc, etc,. It was like trying to stop an avalanche with a snowshovel.

When you see that mountain of snow coming, you had better get out of the way.

As far as the new approach to seminaries, I believe that it is too little too late. That's like hiring more salesmen after the customers have left the store.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 26, 2004.

From: "Griff Ruby" He tells it better than I could

> even though the Holy Ghost guarantees papal infallibility under certain circumstances, but He does not guarantee the Pope freedom from error in the Pope's government of the Church and in his private teaching.>

Officially promulgating a "new mass" in 1969 which alters the meaning of many ancient texts upon which infallible teaching is based, and then making it obligatory all over the world (verbally) in 1971, and (formally published) in 1974, and even to this day regarding the use of the traditional Mass capable of being circumscribed by the rather flaky and whimsical Indult of 1984 and 1988, could hardly be considered mere matters of "government of the Church and ... private teaching."

If Honorius can be so heavily castigated for his one lapse in a letter to one bishop, how much more a severe judgement must necessarily await Paul VI

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 26, 2004.

"I believe that it is too little too late. That's like hiring more salesmen after the customers have left the store."

TC--I understand what you mean and I'm sorry that you final experiences were not to pleasant but it sounds as though you have found a Home which fullfils your spiritual needs which is awesome, many have left to go nowhere and that is sad. It's good and bad that the RCC does not move to fast on changing. If it moved too fast we would see alot of garbage society wants to put in, But it does seem to move slow when when you are trying to get that garbage out of the Church.

The one thing the RCC is good for is moving slow on changes so as not to make it so obvious like the correcting of the previous errors I mentioned, but when the changes are not getting made the Vatican starts clamping down harder and harder on the Bishops to clamp down harder on the offending Priest and Teachers.

Only time will tell what the outcome will be, my bigger concern is regarding the next Pope and what his ideas are.

-- Michael G. (NoEmail@Nowhere.no), December 26, 2004.

Honorius waffled on a genuine doctrinal issue. Paul VI merely made changes in the order of liturgy, something he had full authority to do, something which many popes have done, and something which is not doctrinal in nature. Honorius appeared to be flirting with heresy, though there is no evidence he actually did hold or approve heretical teaching. Paul VI made fully appropriate and desperately needed liturgical changes that don't happen to appeal to a handful of nostalgic older Catholics. However, there cannot be issues of heresy in such changes since there are no doctrional issues at stake. How sad therefore that issues of schism so often do apply to those Catholics/former Catholics who carry their nostalgia to absurd extremes, placing themselves in authority over the Vicar of Christ and the Magisterium of God's Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 27, 2004.

Again Paul, who is the number one apologist for the conciliar popes, talks about the disastrous changes as a good thing. When one's mind is made up om something don't try to change it. No matter that the place isin shambles all around you, just stick to your guns. The Lord gave us the answer if we want to listen to it. "By their fruits you shall know them".

What are the fruits of V2? One does not need a microscope to see what has happemed.

We traditionals are called malcontents be cause we want what our ancestors and the saints wanted.. Not bad company to be in.

Just let JP and his successor keep up the "good work". The problem will solve itself.

Michael do some investiating on the traditional webs. Keep an open mind and then decide for yourself. You don't need Paul or me to answer anything. God gave you your own mind. God bless.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 27, 2004.

Someone on another forum asked about the Leonine prayers; I would not attempt an answer over there but here goes;

October 13, 1884

Exactly 33 years to the day prior to the great Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, that is, on October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a remarkable vision. When the aged Pontiff had finished celebrating Mass in his private Vatican Chapel, attended by a few Cardinals and members of the Vatican staff, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there for about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. Then, going immediately from the Chapel to his office, he composed the prayer to St. Michael, with instructions it be said after all Low Masses everywhere. When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard voices - two voices, one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:

The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: "I can destroy your Church."

The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."

Satan: "To do so, I need more time and more power."

Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?

Satan: "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service."

Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will."

--------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

Let us think about this for a minute. This happened in 1884. The devil said he needed 75 to100 years. Well, 75 years from 1884 is 1959. Wow, what a coincidence that it was on January 25, 1959, that John XXIII publicly summoned the Second Vatican Council.

Remember that after the vision, Pope Leo XIII immediately wrote the Prayer to St. Michael to help us overcome the devil in his quest. He instructed that it be said after every low Mass.

One of the first changes to come from Vatican II, was the deletion of the Leonine Prayers which included the prayer to St. Michael. These prayers were eliminated in 1964, the 80th year of the devils 75 - 100 years needed to destroy the Catholic Church. It would seem that this would be the time to especially say that prayer, not to delete it.

The 100th year would be 1984. By 1984 John Paul II had let the devil develope a church that is called Catholic, but is not. This is obvious from his teachings.

A quick look at some of what JPII said from 1978-1984:

The words of John Paul II What the Church has always taught 5/6/80: All men are saved

11/17/80: Luther had a profound religious spirit; Condemned

12/23/82: Heretics are Christians Condemned

5/22/84: Masons are sons of God the Father Condemned

6/17/84: Buddhism is a great religion Eugene IV: All outside the Catholic Church cannot be saved

Innocent III: If anyone patronizes heretics, he is a heretic

Pius VI: Only Catholics can be Christians

Pius IX: The Masons are sons of the Devil

St. Pius X: Buddhism is a false pagan religion.

John Paul II has said much more against the teachings of the true Catholic Church, but this only a brief summary up to 1984, Satan's 100th year. To see some of the other things he has said view

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 27, 2004.

Michael G

a request!

can you reconcile Dominus Iesus with Cantate Domino?

thanks.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), December 27, 2004.

A good article, too long to post here;

http://www.latinmass-ctm.org/pub/archive.htm

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 27, 2004.

"a request! can you reconcile Dominus Iesus with Cantate Domino?"

Ian-- Are you asking me to jump into the middle of a Mexican standoff with a view most would not like? LOL

I think it is best for people to understand Church and social history and events occuring at each time, and even more so having Faith that The Holy Spirit knows what and how to accomplish it's mission for God and Jesus.

Perhaps think of it as when you were growing up and you were small, the rules were tighter and through each phase of your life the rules were eased up a little at time as you gain more knowledge to act at a more responsible level..

Think of the periods where Kings wanted to be Popes and Popes wanted to be Kings, Yet the Catholic "Universal" Church Survived and still grew- Of course we did help with a little Persuasion at times. Do I believe that either of these documents are bad or wrong? I think they have simply found their proper place in time.

I would like to think that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are Highly skilled chess player who know how to head off their Opponent in their future moves. But then thats just me.

-- Michael G. (NoEmail@Nowhere.no), December 28, 2004.

I am writing this on the feast of the holy Confessor Saint Peter Nolasco, bookended yesterday and tomorrow by the Double Feasts of two wonderful orthodox Doctors of the Church who I must follow. Yesterday the "Golden Mouth of Truth" as Saint John Chrysostom was called, and tomorrow Saint Francis de Sales, who is the patron saint of the Catholic Press. In order to be true to our crucial role as members of the Catholic Press, we must uphold the Truths and Traditions of Holy Mother Church, no matter the costs. To solidify this I rely on what another great Doctor of the Church Saint Augustine said, "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it." We'll stand with right. The right that was taught from Peter through Pius XII. And we will stand here and state unequivocally - and you can quote me - that this Pope is flat-out wrong! I will do all in my power to stop his will from triumphing. But I will also pray with all my heart for his soul for it is great danger. Remember Christ's charge in Luke 12: 48, "And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required; and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more." If we demand so much more of our Vicar of Christ, what do you think God asks? Would you want to be standing in Karol Wojtyla's shoes right now? Better right now than after he dies for at least now he still has the chance to turn back, to recant the anathemas he has allowed to permeate the Church. Judas Iscariot wouldn't repent. That was his sin. But the Pope needs to realize that the degree of how and where he has steered the Barque of Peter away from the infrangible truths is intricately linked to the state of his own soul. He can't be blinded to that fact, can he?

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), December 28, 2004.