Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

Andy said on another thread,"Doesn't this verse support David's belief?"

Yes, this supports my belief and not Faith's.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"

"... you seem to believe that we are saved by regeneration." - Faith

I believe we are saved by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. There is no need to put words into my mouth. The issue here is faith, and the myth of libertarian free will that is an unscriptural doctrine that you hold to. Perhaps you'd like to study up on this issue by reading some of the authors I have suggested. Like R.C. Sproul, John Piper, John McArthuer, James White, etc. www.monergism.com also has a few articles that might help you in understanding Reformed Theology.

"but I want to point out that it is not faith that is the gift" - Faith

Because... you... say so? You have not given any reason as to why we should believe this.

"Calvinism is a false teaching." - Faith

Why?

"Being dead in our sin simply means that we are not alive in Christ" - Faith

I see, is that all "dead in sin" means?

"There are no verses that say we cannot do this unless we are born again first." - Faith

There are verses, you are just unwilling to accept what they mean because you are blinded by your traditions.

"There is one thing we do have to do, to do the work of God--and that is to *believe.* " - Faith

Read that passage again. It is still 'THE WORK OF GOD'.

"God created us as free-willed creatures. That seems to be the most important thing He wanted for us." - Faith

Really? Would you care to offer any scriptures to back that up?

"I think that that is because He wants us to love Him--a love given freely--real love. This could never be forced from us or imposed on us if it is to be real." - Faith

No one is forced to do anything Faith.

"but He will not force us against our will." - Faith

Now where is that in Scripture?

"The Scriptures reveal that God wants that *all* people should come to a saving faith in His Son" - Faith

Scriptures please?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 26, 2004

Answers

bump

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 26, 2004.

Here are a few David, and I'm sure Faith has a few to add as well.

1 Tim, 2:4 . . . who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the turth.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, . . .

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentence.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 26, 2004.

Well Gail, those would work if you just yank them out of context. 1 Timothy 2:4 and Titus 2:11 speak of 'all kinds of men', not every single individual (one would have to show why the passage, in context, would mean this). 2 Peter 3:9 is speaking of believers, not un-believers.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 26, 2004.

I just looked them all up, one by one, and read the entire chapters from whence they came, and no, David, they are not taken out of context.

Calvinism breeds arrogance, and an attitude of superiority. It is not from God, but from the devil.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 26, 2004.

Hi David--

I hope you had a very Merry Christmas : )

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"

I love that verse. But where do you get that it is saying that we cannot believe unless God first regenerates us or makes us born-again?

And if God has to cause us to believe through this regeneration and then gives us with faith as a gift--which part came first? Faith or regeneration? If regeneration came first--how can we say that we are saved by faith, when it was regeneration that saved us?

The Scriptures always reveal that we are saved by faith which comes because we believed. Faith comes first--the result of this faith is that we are born again--all because we believed. It never says that because we were born-again we were able to believe and that we received faith as a gift.

Salavation is the gift of God to those who believe in faith that Jesus Christ is God. "... you seem to believe that we are saved by regeneration." - Faith

I believe we are saved by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. There is no need to put words into my mouth. The issue here is faith, and the myth of libertarian free will that is an unscriptural doctrine that you hold to. Perhaps you'd like to study up on this issue by reading some of the authors I have suggested. Like R.C. Sproul, John Piper, John McArthuer, James White, etc. www.monergism.com also has a few articles that might help you in understanding Reformed Theology.

How is it that I put words in your mouth David? Which it it? Are we saved by faith because we believed the gospel? Or are we saved because God regenerated us? You can't have it both ways. If God had to regenerate us in order for us to believe--then we are saved by that act. What choice did we have?

"but I want to point out that it is not faith that is the gift" - Faith

Because... you... say so? You have not given any reason as to why we should believe this.

I think it is just a matter of literary understanding.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Just break this verse up a bit to see just what it is that is not of ourselves.

For it is by grace you have been saved...though faith....

But what is through faith?

(answer) That you have been saved.

So what is *not of ourselves?* The faith or the salvation?

In other parts of Scripture we read that salvation is the gift of God- -right?

In other parts of Scripture we read that salvation is not by works so that no one may boast--correct?

"Calvinism is a false teaching." - Faith

Why?

"Being dead in our sin simply means that we are not alive in Christ" - Faith

I see, is that all "dead in sin" means?

Romans 5:6-7

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 7:4-6

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 7:25

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

"There are no verses that say we cannot do this unless we are born again first." - Faith

There are verses, you are just unwilling to accept what they mean because you are blinded by your traditions.

Post one--just one if you can....

"There is one thing we do have to do, to do the work of God--and that is to *believe.* " - Faith

Read that passage again. It is still 'THE WORK OF GOD'.

And this is why we know that faith is not the gift--salvation is....faith comes to those who *believe* which is the work God requires of us.

"God created us as free-willed creatures. That seems to be the most important thing He wanted for us." - Faith

Really? Would you care to offer any scriptures to back that up?

Any verse where God pleads with us to turn from our wicked ways is proof that we are free creatures....

"I think that that is because He wants us to love Him--a love given freely--real love. This could never be forced from us or imposed on us if it is to be real." - Faith

No one is forced to do anything Faith.

Salvation by regeneration which doesn't come to us by our choice--but God's--is forced on us.

"but He will not force us against our will." - Faith

Now where is that in Scripture?

It is the overall teaching and clear revelation in the Scriptures David.

"The Scriptures reveal that God wants that *all* people should come to a saving faith in His Son" - Faith

Scriptures please?

Are you serious?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 26, 2004.

-- (italics@off.com), December 26, 2004.

david are you a calvinist?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 27, 2004.

David--you can delete the above post because I am reposting it here with the necessary correction. ***********************************

Hi David-- I hope you had a very Merry Christmas : )

You posted:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"

I love that verse. But where do you get that it is saying that we cannot believe unless God first regenerates us or makes us born- again?

And if God has to cause us to believe through this regeneration and then gives us faith as a gift--which part came first? Faith or regeneration? If regeneration came first--how can we say that we are saved by faith, when it was regeneration that saved us?

The Scriptures always reveal that we are saved by faith which comes because we believed. Believing comes first--and the result of this is faith and we are born again--all because we believed. It never says that because we were born-again we were able to believe and that we received faith as a gift.

Salavation is the gift of God to those who believe and have faith that Jesus Christ is God. "... you seem to believe that we are saved by regeneration." - Faith

I believe we are saved by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. There is no need to put words into my mouth. The issue here is faith, and the myth of libertarian free will that is an unscriptural doctrine that you hold to. Perhaps you'd like to study up on this issue by reading some of the authors I have suggested. Like R.C. Sproul, John Piper, John McArthuer, James White, etc. www.monergism.com also has a few articles that might help you in understanding Reformed Theology.

How is it that I put words in your mouth, David? Which it it? Are we saved by faith because we believed the gospel? Or are we saved because God regenerated us? You can't have it both ways. If God had to regenerate us in order for us to believe--then we are saved by that act. What choice did we have?

"but I want to point out that it is not faith that is the gift" - Faith

Because... you... say so? You have not given any reason as to why we should believe this.

I think it is just a matter of literary understanding.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Just break this verse up a bit to see just what it is that is not of ourselves.

For it is by grace you have been saved...though faith....

But what is through faith?

(answer) That you have been saved.

So what is *not of ourselves?* The faith or the salvation?

In other parts of Scripture we read that salvation is the gift of God- -right?

In other parts of Scripture we read that salvation is not by works so that no one may boast--correct?

"Calvinism is a false teaching." - Faith

Why?

Because there is no mercy or love in that theology. What kind of God would command that we repent and turn from our wicked ways and then not provide every single person with the very same ability to do that?

"Being dead in our sin simply means that we are not alive in Christ" - Faith

I see, is that all "dead in sin" means?

It simply means we haven't been saved yet.

Romans 5:6-7

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 7:4-6

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 7:25

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

"There are no verses that say we cannot do this unless we are born again first." - Faith

There are verses, you are just unwilling to accept what they mean because you are blinded by your traditions.

Post one--just one if you can....

"There is one thing we do have to do, to do the work of God--and that is to *believe.* " - Faith

Read that passage again. It is still 'THE WORK OF GOD'.

And this is why we know that faith is not the gift--salvation is....faith comes to those who *believe* which is the work God requires of us. You cannot call something a gift that you had to work for, can you?

"God created us as free-willed creatures. That seems to be the most important thing He wanted for us." - Faith

Really? Would you care to offer any scriptures to back that up?

Any verse where God pleads with us to turn from our wicked ways is proof that we are free creatures.... otherwise--isn't God being a bit cruel to be commanding us to do something that He knows we cannot do unless He regenerates us first?

"I think that that is because He wants us to love Him--a love given freely--real love. This could never be forced from us or imposed on us if it is to be real." - Faith

No one is forced to do anything Faith.

Salvation by regeneration which doesn't come to us by our choice--but God's--is forced on us.

"but He will not force us against our will." - Faith

Now where is that in Scripture?

It is the overall teaching and clear revelation in the Scriptures David. Otherwise--what need would there be for evangelism?

"The Scriptures reveal that God wants that *all* people should come to a saving faith in His Son" - Faith

Scriptures please?

Are you serious?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.

Gail--

This verse in particular is a very good one that should be a strong message against the idea that we are predestined to be saved or not by God's choice.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentence.

I would have to ask in this case., can the elect perish--ever? If God predetermined who would be saved, how could they be in danger of perishing?

Clearly this verse means all people when it says all., and not just all of the elect, as Calvin tried to suggest.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.

I'll answer some things after I come out of work.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 29, 2004.

Looks like some team work! Very interesting posts and nice to see the cooperation. Happy New Year!

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 29, 2004.

Happy New Year to you too, Jim!

For the discussion: All good comes from God and we can claim no good of ourselves. Although God desires for all men to be saved, the fact is that all men are not saved. That any man is saved can only be attributed to the goodness of God. That any man is lost, is solely the fault of the one who is lost. Yet God never commands what is impossible. I think that sums up St. Augustine's teaching on predestination.

I do find Arminianism to be a bit contradictory for someone who believes in eternal security. If one can freely deny God and not be saved, then how does free will suddenly disappear after one accepts Jesus into their heart? The Calvinist idea of predistination seems more consistent with the idea of eternal security. When I use the term eternal security, I am equating it with the term "once saved always saved." Not sure this is correct though.

I realize that I may be spouting some misinformed opinions. I honestly don't know enough to say that my analysis of Arminianism and Calvinism is correct. Both ideas of predestination seem to have truth and error in them.

Personally, I believe that one must choose to cooperate with God's grace for it to be effective, but that even the ability to cooperate with His grace comes from Him.

If I'm misrepresenting your beliefs, please set me straight.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 30, 2004.

Hi Andy

Just noted Faith and Gail working together on scripture. THey are often at odds. just a side note, not really related to the discussion.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 30, 2004.

I thought that was a good observation Jim and actually was relevant to the discussion. It's interesting to see how the "teams" change depending on the topic.

Hope it didn't seem like I was trying to get us back on track from your "side note". ;-) That's not what I intended to convey.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 30, 2004.

Gail said, "I just looked them all up, one by one, and read the entire chapters from whence they came, and no, David, they are not taken out of context."

Ok, then you should easly be able to show why "all" means "every single individual", and why 2 Peter 3:9 is refering to non- believers, when the chapter is clearly talking about the elect.

Gail continued, "Calvinism breeds arrogance, and an attitude of superiority. It is not from God, but from the devil."

Ok, prove it.

Faith01 said, "And if God has to cause us to believe through this regeneration and then gives us with faith as a gift--which part came first? Faith or regeneration?

I'm still convinced you are confusing regeneration with sanctification.

*If regeneration came first* - Faith01

It does.

*how can we say that we are saved by faith,* - Faith01

Because the Bible reveals that we are justified through faith.

*when it was regeneration that saved us* - Faith01

This is where you lose me. Never have I said, "We are saved by regeneration". You have to stop confusing regeneration with all of salvation. Regeneration is part of the process of salvation. That is why you make absolutely no sense whatsoever when you start making fundamental errors like this.

"The Scriptures always reveal that we are saved by faith..." - Faith01

The Scriptures reveal that we are justified through faith, and faith alone.

"...which comes because we believed." - Faith01

Ok, now your getting confusing again. Faith comes because we have faith? So, somehow spiritually dead rebel sinners find a way to exercise saving faith, and then get a super-faith after that?

"It never says that because we were born-again we were able to believe and that we received faith as a gift." - Faith01

Read First John 5:1.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (KJV)

We believe because we have been born-again.

"Because there is no mercy or love in that theology. What kind of God would command that we repent and turn from our wicked ways and then not provide every single person with the very same ability to do that?" - Faith01

I can't really comment on this, as you obviously have false views about God's love.

"It is the overall teaching and clear revelation in the Scriptures David." - Faith01

I asked for Scriptures that say God will not violate this man-made libertarian free will Arminianism promotes. I'd really like to see some.

"This verse in particular is a very good one that should be a strong message against the idea that we are predestined to be saved or not by God's choice." - Faith01, on 2 Pet. 3:9, to Gail

Perhaps you'd like to tell us why this verse does what you claim is does? Who is Peter speaking to here? Believers or Unbelievers? Peter limits "all" to a specific people, the elect. It is up to you to prove otherwise.

"Clearly this verse means all people when it says all., and not just all of the elect, as Calvin tried to suggest." - Faith01

Prove it.

"I would have to ask in this case., can the elect perish--ever?" - Faith01

The point of this passage is that God desires that the elect don't perish, so they don't.

"Any verse where God pleads with us to turn from our wicked ways is proof that we are free creatures...." - Faith01

No it's not.

"otherwise--isn't God being a bit cruel to be commanding us to do something that He knows we cannot do unless He regenerates us first?" - Faith01

God has commanded us to do things we cannot do.

"Salvation by regeneration which doesn't come to us by our choice-- but God's--is forced on us." - Faith01

This has been corrected already...

"what need would there be for evangelism?" - Faith01

We have been through this already too.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

Geez, David, are you saying "It's all according to what the meaning of the word 'all' is." What, did you learn vocabulary at Clinton's School of Evasive Reasoning?

"ALL," David, the text says ALL. If you don't know what the word "all" means, I suggest you get out your Webster's and look it up!

You're the one that has to prove that when the writer used "all" he didn't mean "all" at ALL, but really meant only "some."

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 03, 2005.

Very well Gail.

In 2 Peter 1, who is Peter addressing?

v.1 "...to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:""

Did the audience change from 2 Peter 1 to 2 Peter 3?

v.1 'beloved, I now write unto you' v.8 'beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing' v.13 'we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth'

Do the math Gail.

9.The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Can it... is it... could it... be posssible... that just maybe... "all" and "any" refer to the elect? And that God wants all of them to come to repentance? (And they do, because God's will is not thwarted)

It is crystal clear who Peter is addressing in 2 Peter 3:9, it is up to you to show otherwise. All I had to do was show you the verse.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

David--just because Peter may have been addressing the church--does not mean that he could not have been talking about people outside of the church.

If God predestined some to be saved, called the *elect*--then why would there be any danger of them possibly perishing?

Isn't God's predestination a sure thing?

In truth David--you cannot find even one verse where someone is predestined to be saved.

They are always predestined to certain blessing because they are saved.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2005.

Also David--

You posted in response to me:

"The Scriptures always reveal that we are saved by faith..." - Faith01

The Scriptures reveal that we are justified through faith, and faith alone.

The Scriptures say that we are saved by faith, because we believed.

"...which comes because we believed." - Faith01

Ok, now your getting confusing again. Faith comes because we have faith? So, somehow spiritually dead rebel sinners find a way to exercise saving faith, and then get a super-faith after that?

No David., faith comes because we believed the gospel.

"It never says that because we were born-again we were able to believe and that we received faith as a gift." - Faith01

Read First John 5:1.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (KJV)

We believe because we have been born-again.

Sorry David--but the way that reads to me is that we are born of God/born again-- because we believed.

Luke 8:12:

Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Mark 16:16:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 16:31:

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.”

Romans 1:16:

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

1Cor.15:1-2:

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Ephes. 2:8:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this (salvation)not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

1Tim 1:16:

But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

Romans 10:17:

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2005.

Why do some say that when Peter says "all" he is talking only to the elect, but when Paul exhorts Christians to persevere and not fall back into sin, they say he is talking to both the saved and unsaved?

Hebrews 6 (NIV)

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 10 (NIV)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38 But my righteous one[f] will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.” 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 03, 2005.

In reading the entire Chapter 3 of 2 Peter, David, this Chapter negates the teachings of Calvin for the following reasons:

First, Peter is talking about the ungodly, then he addresses "believers" whom he is encouraging to "come to repentence so that they might not perish." (Okay, I'll concede on that. He is clearly speaking to believers here.) But then Peters slaps Calvin in the face . . . BECAUSE Why do they need to come to repentence? "So they might not perish."

Then, he says in verse 14: "Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation." And why should they be diligent if they've been "elected," their salvation is "assured" according to Calvin? And why do they need the Lord's patience? Aren't they already a "card-carrying member of the We-are-the-Elected-and-You're-Not-Band?"

Then he says in verse 17: "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness." How can you fall if your "elected"? And what are the consequences of "falling". See verse 9. "so that you will not perish."

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net.), January 03, 2005.

"just because Peter may have been addressing the church--does not mean that he could not have been

talking about people outside of the church." - Faith01

Nice try. He wasn't, and it is obvious by the context. The 'all' and 'any' are the 'beloved', the

ones who 'have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour

Jesus Christ'. It's simple English Faith01, if you can't accept that, then I don't know. The only

thing one can do is pray that God enlightens you.

"If God predestined some to be saved, called the *elect*--then why would there be any danger of them

possibly perishing?"

You completely miss the point of the passage... They don't perish, because God's will is not thwarted.

"Isn't God's predestination a sure thing?"

Would you prefer a system where God's wants to save you, and tries to save you, but FAILS? Oh wait..

you do.

"In truth David--you cannot find even one verse where someone is predestined to be saved."

Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the

kind intention of His will, (NASB)

Case closed. Though, the goggles of tradition won't let you see the truth.

"They are always predestined to certain blessing because they are saved."

Would you provide some scriptures to back this up? This is your usual claim against predestination,

but I've never seen a verse.

"The Scriptures say that we are saved by faith, because we believed"

The Scriptures say we are saved by faith, because we have faith? You lose me at this point... I see

faith and belief one and the same. In your view, what is the difference between faith and belief?

"No David., faith comes because we believed the gospel"

I agree. I have never said otherwise.

"Sorry David--but the way that reads to me is that we are born of God/born again-- because we believed.

"

Well take off the goggles of tradition and read it again.

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him. (NASB)

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the [child] born of Him. (NASB)

Are you Faith01, going to be consistent with your interpretation and promote a works-salvation gospel? According to your way of interpreting things, we are born again through practicing righteousness. Which is it? Explain both parallel verses.

And How many times do I have do have to repeat myself? I believe in Sola Fide, I believe it is through faith we are justified, but I believe in tota scriptura, and sola scriptura. I believe it is through faith, but one does not have the DESIRE or Ability to exercise that saving faith. You provide me with a scripture that specifically says a dead rebel sinner who is at emnity with God, hates God and does not understand the spiritural things of God, get the ability to exercise saving faith.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

It's a matter of a "change of heart" David.

Those who allow the flesh to control them (their sinful nature) it is they who cannot please God.

But there is nothing in the Bible that says a man cannot turn from the flesh and his sinful nature and be healed--thereby living according to the Spirit and putting to death the sinful nature.

If man is incapable of doing this without God first regeberating him-- then someone should tell God--because He seems unaware. Jeremiah 29:13 reads:

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Even the wicked are commanded to turn to God, without even so much as a hint that this is impossible for them to do unless God first causes them to do so:

Isaiah 55:6-7

Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.

Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts.

Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Calvinism drives us into an irrational dead-end, David.

Don't you find it both useless and senseless for God to plead with the so-called *elect* whom He has already predestined to salvation and will effect it sovereignly before any faith is exercized on their part--and conversely, does it make any better sense for God to present the Gospel to and plead with the non-elect who cannot believe until they have been regenerated--but that won't happen of course, because they are damned by Hid eternal decree from before the creation of time???

Yet He continues to plead with the wicked and then blame them for not repenting and turning from their sin (consider the judgements on Israel throughout Scripture)--even while He withholds from them the essential grace which He only gives to a select few. This is an entirely unbiblical and unreasonable doctrine.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.

Gail,

"In reading the entire Chapter 3 of 2 Peter, David, this Chapter negates the teachings of Calvin for the following reasons:"

Have you ever read what Calvin thinks of this passage? You can acutally see how he deals with those verses instead of speculating.

"And why should they be diligent if they've been "elected," their salvation is "assured" according to Calvin?"

Are you seriously asking me that? Go find a verse where Paul says "you've been elected so live however you want" and then get back to me. In fact, while your at it, find a quote of Calvin saying something simliar to that too.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

But there is nothing in the Bible that says a man cannot turn from the flesh and his sinful nature and be healed--thereby living according to the Spirit and putting to death the sinful nature. - Faith

I agree, but Scripture also says that God will have mercy on whom He will and harden the hearts of those whom He chooses to.

Do you believe that a man can "turn from the flesh and his sinful nature and be healed" without the aid, without the grace of God? Is there anything we can do that is good, that is not God's work (including repenting and believing)?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 07, 2005.

God provides that grace in Jesus Christ to all whom will believe...

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.

You need to *believe* the gospel and then the salvation you receive enables you to do all that God commands.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.

You need to believe the gospel and do all that God commands. Failure in either of these requirements forfeits salvation.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 07, 2005.

"Have you ever read what Calvin thinks of this passage? You can acutally see how he deals with those verses instead of speculating."

ANSWER: I think the text speaks for itself, David. It's not hard to understand unless you have a jigsaw puzzle that requires squares and all you have are circles.

I asked you this: "And why should they be diligent if they've been "elected," their salvation is "assured" according to Calvin?"

And your response was "Are you seriously asking me that? Go find a verse where Paul says 'you've been elected so live however you want' and then get back to me. In fact, while your at it, find a quote of Calvin saying something simliar to that too."

ANSWER: Sarcasm is useless and shows me that you have no answer, David. Paul doesn't teach that once you've been elected you can live the way you want; I never claimed he did, AU CONTRAIRE! I asked you some very specific questions related to these passages and all you can do is direct me to find a quote of Calvin! You are the Calvinite David. Aren't you prepared to give an answer for what you believe and why? If not, why did you start this thread?

These passages in Peter, like SO VERY MANY N.T. passages, are NOT consistent with eternal security OR predestination PERIOD! You know that they're not, and you can't figure out, by yourself, how to fit these round pieces into the squares in your jigsaw puzzle.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 08, 2005.

Paul.,

You can't possibly *do* all God commands without salvation first. Salvation is the deliverance from the power of sin as well as from the penalty thereof.

The blessing of salvation is that we become children of God and receive eternal life.

There is only one way to be delivered from sin, and that is to believe and receive Jesus Christ as Savior. Then you have the power to accomplish all that God asks of you.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

Paul wrote, "You need to believe the gospel and do all that God commands. Failure in either of these requirements forfeits salvation."

Not only does one need to "believe the gospel", they must obey the gospel in order to be saved and that is not all, like Paul said they must do "all that God commands"... Yes, failure in either of these requirements does forfeit one's salvation...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

"You can't possibly *do* all God commands without salvation first."

That is not correct...

One must first hear the gospel, then one must believe the gospel, then one must repent of their sins, then one must confess their faith in the gospel, then one must be baptized for the remission of their sins... These are all things that one "can" do before they have salvation...

It is not hard to "do" these things in obedience to God's commands before one is saved...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

Don't be silly Kevin--how can one possibly obey the gospel without being saved first? Salvation gives us the strength in Christ. Without that--you can't possibly please God--let alone obey Him. The Bible is clear that without Christ in us we are incapable of doing good before an Holy God.

You need the salvation first. And that comes to us because we believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Word that sets us free and have the power to convict our souls.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

"Don't be silly Kevin--how can one possibly obey the gospel without being saved first?"

Can one hear the gospel without being saved???

Yes they can...

Can one believe the gospel without being saved???

Yes they can...

Can one repent of their sins without being saved???

Yes they can...

Can one confess their faith in the gospel of Christ without being saved???

Yes they can...

Can one be baptized in obedience to the gospel of Christ without being saved prior to their baptism???

Yes they can...

It is not difficult to do the things that God commands... It is people like you who claim that one cannot do these things unless they are first saved.... And I say to you prove it!!! If one cannot do any of the things I stated above, then I challenge you to prove that one is not able to do them...

"Salvation gives us the strength in Christ. Without that--you can't possibly please God--let alone obey Him."

Here is another assumption of yours without any Biblical proof... Please show me in the Bible where one has to be saved first before they can obey God???

"The Bible is clear that without Christ in us we are incapable of doing good before an Holy God."

That is also not true...Go back and re-read Acts 10:1-4... This centurion was able to do these things before he was saved...

"You need the salvation first."

Scripture please...

"And that comes to us because we believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Word that sets us free and have the power to convict our souls."

Again, this is also not true... God gave us all free will and we can either choose to obey God on His terms and be saved, or disobey and be lost... The choice is ours to make...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

Faith,

You keep stressing that "we must believe" and then God gives grace to those "who believe". I'm trying to pin down whether "believing" is something we can do without the grace of God. I'm trying to understand exactly what you believe regarding God's grace.

Does God give one the grace to believe or does one choose to believe (a simple act of the free will) and then God gives them the grace to repent. I'm nether a Calvinist, nor an Arminianist. I'm a Catholic.

I want to get to the bottom of your belief regarding God's grace.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 08, 2005.

Yes they can, Kevin:

Can one hear the gospel without being saved???

Yes they can...

Can one believe the gospel without being saved???

Yes they can...

Can one repent of their sins without being saved???

Yes they can...

Can one confess their faith in the gospel of Christ without being saved??? Yes they can!

Thank you Kevin--you just described the process of being born-again. Renewed by the Word. Then you are saved. After this--and only after this, does one have the power to *obey* the gospel. Hearing and believing gives us the power to *do* whatever God calls us to do. But you must first believe and be saved. That is what the Scripture teaches!

Romans 10:17:

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

1Cor.15:1-2:

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Ephes. 2:8:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this (salvation)not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

1Cor.15:1-2:

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 08, 2005.

Faith,

You wrote, "Thank you Kevin--you just described the process of being born-again. Renewed by the Word. Then you are saved. After this--and only after this, does one have the power to *obey* the gospel. Hearing and believing gives us the power to *do* whatever God calls us to do. But you must first believe and be saved. That is what the Scripture teaches!"

You are incorrect... You believe that one is saved by "faith alone" then one can obey God... and skip several steps that are required prior to one being saved...

One can repent of their sins before they are saved...

One can confess Jesus as Lord before they are saved...

One can be baptized in obedience to the gospel of Christ before they go down into the water and have their sins washed away...

It is not difficult to do the things that God commands...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

The Word is Jesus Christ is risen. That is the gospel message that one must believe to be saved.

You can't very well believe works, can you? You believe the message, then you are saved. After which you are able to obey and work.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

The only work of God, Kevin--is to believe in the One He sent!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

"The Word is Jesus Christ is risen. That is the gospel message that one must believe to be saved."

This is not true... The gospel message that must be believe is that Jesus died, was buried and resurrected as stated in 1 Cor 15:1-4, "1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-- unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures"

Paul says it is possible to believe in vain in verse 2... Also there is an example of some Pharisees who believed in Jesus but did not confess Him, hence they were not saved for it is written in John 12:42, "Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;"

"You can't very well believe works, can you? You believe the message, then you are saved. After which you are able to obey and work."

No, one does not only have to believe the message then they are saved... You leave out commands that are required before one is saved... Did Peter tell the Jews on the day of Pentecost that all they had to do was "believe" and they were saved in Acts 2:38???? No, he told them to "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;"

It is obvious that repentance comes before remission of sins... You also leave out confession that is a requirement before one is saved and baptism which actually puts one into Christ... One is not "in Christ" unless they have been baptized "into Christ" for that is exactly what Romans 6:3-4, "3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." and Galatians 3:27 teaches... "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

One does not "put on Christ" until they are baptized and have their sins washed away... "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16).

"The only work of God, Kevin--is to believe in the One He sent!"

Why do you have to add the word "only" to what has been written Faith??? The text actually states, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (John 6:29).

Your faith only salvation is dead...

"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20).

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

Kevin--you just confirm what I am saying:

"The Word is Jesus Christ is risen. That is the gospel message that one must believe to be saved."

You say:

This is not true... The gospel message that must be believe is that Jesus died, was buried and resurrected as stated in 1 Cor 15:1-4, "1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-- unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures"

Isn't this my point?

We are delivered--which means saved--when we believe that Jesus Christ is risen!!

Then once we have been saved, which is born again by this Word--then we can obey the gospel and do whatever Jesus commands of us in the way of deeds and following His will.

We will then have the ability to love our enemy., to love everyone and to walk as He did.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

"Isn't this my point?"

No, your point is that one is saved by "faith alone" then once they have believe then and only then can they repent, confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized...

"We are delivered--which means saved--when we believe that Jesus Christ is risen!!"

This is not true... We are not saved until we are united with Him in baptism... where He shed His blood... Faith alone never saved anyone...

"Then once we have been saved, which is born again by this Word-- then we can obey the gospel and do whatever Jesus commands of us in the way of deeds and following His will."

No, actually one cannot be saved until they obey the gospel of Christ and that includes all of the commands, believe, repent, confess and be baptized for the remission of sins...

"We will then have the ability to love our enemy., to love everyone and to walk as He did."

People can love their enemies without being saved... In order to walk like Jesus, we must obey His commandments... Without obedience, there is no salvation...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

Take this topic to another thread, Kevin and Faith01.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 08, 2005.

False Kevin,

I understand the Scriptures which say that when you believe Jesus Christ is the perfect Son of God, confess He is Lord and repent from your sin., that in this you are born-again. In this you are saved.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

Consider the two criminals on the cross. One was saved and the other was not. What was the difference?

The difference came in the confession of the one thief--who recognized who Jesus was, that He was perfect, and without sin. He called on Jesus, confessing he was a sinner and he asked Jesus to save him.

There was no baptism in the physical sense, yet Jesus promised this repentent thief that he would be with Jesus in paradise.

What this thief experienced was a rebirth and a spiritual baptism.

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.." (Romans 10:4)

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

"False Kevin, I understand the Scriptures which say that when you believe Jesus Christ is the perfect Son of God, confess He is Lord and repent from your sin., that in this you are born-again. In this you are saved."

No, you say that one only has to "believe in Jesus" then they are saved... What I said is "true"... One is not born again until they believe, repent, confess and are baptized for the remission of their sins...

"Consider the two criminals on the cross. One was saved and the other was not. What was the difference? The difference came in the confession of the one thief--who recognized who Jesus was, that He was perfect, and without sin. He called on Jesus, confessing he was a sinner and he asked Jesus to save him."

The difference was that Jesus had authority while on this earth to forgive sins... The thief on the cross is not a model for our salvation today...

"There was no baptism in the physical sense, yet Jesus promised this repentent thief that he would be with Jesus in paradise."

As I stated above, Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins... Who is to say that the theif was not baptized???

"What this thief experienced was a rebirth and a spiritual baptism."

The thief was only told that he would be in Paradise with Jesus, nothing more... There is no such thing as a rebirth or "spiritual baptism"... Once again you are reading into the text...

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.." (Romans 10:4)"

Faith only never saved anyone... What does Mark 16:16 say???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

Mark 16:16 says that whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever doe not believe will be condemned. It goes on to say that these signs will accompany those who believe:...they will speak in tongues, drive out demons in Christ's name, heal the sick...etc....

The point being that it is about believing.

I concur....and the baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit--the real baptism that Jesus brings and John only forshadowed until the instituting of the church at pentecost.....

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.

"The point being that it is about believing."

No, the point is about believing "and" being baptized for the remission of sins...

"I concur....and the baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit--the real baptism that Jesus brings and John only forshadowed until the instituting of the church at pentecost....."

There is no such thing as "the baptism of the Holy Spirit"... Again you have been misled...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 09, 2005.

John 1:24-27

Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

“I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

John 1:29-31

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

John 1:32-34

Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

Faith,

There are only two (2) examples of Holy Spirit baptism, one (1) for the Apostles when they were gathered in Jerusalem and two (2) when this happened to the household of Cornelius... You will not find any other examples of your Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament... There were only two (2) examples of this in the NT and Holy Spirit baptism is not available for us today...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 10, 2005.

That's what you say Kevin--

But I wouldn't need to even see two examples to believe John 1:32-34.

This baptism is what ushered in the church. Why would it not apply today?

If anything, I would say that John's baptism is the one that wouldn't apply today since it was just a forshadow of what Jesus was bringing.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 11, 2005.

I don't see any scripture to support the cessation of baptism by water, or the spirit! They are both important!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 11, 2005.

I think there is only one saving baptism!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 12, 2005.

"That's what you say Kevin--"

No, that is what the Bible says...

"But I wouldn't need to even see two examples to believe John 1:32- 34."

Please show us any other example of where this "Holy Spirit baptism" of yours happened in the NT other than the day of Pentecost and for the household of Cornelius...

If this baptism is the "only" baptism that saves (according to your interpretation), then you ought to be able to show plainly that those who were baptized other than the 2 examples that I gave were given this baptism...

"This baptism is what ushered in the church. Why would it not apply today?"

Actually, this baptism was "not" ushered in the church, it allowed the Apostles to speak in tongues so that everyone assembled in Jerusalem might be able to hear the gospel of Christ...

"If anything, I would say that John's baptism is the one that wouldn't apply today since it was just a forshadow of what Jesus was bringing."

I never said that John's baptism was applicable today... Everyone who obeyed the gospel in the NT was baptized (in water) for the remission of their sins... There is no other way for one to be baptized...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 13, 2005.

Yes there is Kevin--the saving rebirth is spiritual. It is the same thing as being born again. The water ritual simply represents that. But since Christ came--we can do this through Him now, by receiving Him as our Savior.

Spiritual baptism is an instantaneous thing that comes through faith the moment we believe.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 14, 2005.

Y"es there is Kevin--the saving rebirth is spiritual. It is the same thing as being born again. The water ritual simply represents that. But since Christ came--we can do this through Him now, by receiving Him as our Savior."

Baptism actually saves for this is what the Bible teaches... "Spiritual baptism is an instantaneous thing that comes through faith the moment we believe."

There is no such thing as a "spiritual baptism" except in your own mind... If this "spiritual baptism" is real, then you ought to be able to quote scripture(s) to prove it...

Please give us all an example other than the two that I gave you in the NT where anyone else was ever baptized with the Holy Spirit...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 15, 2005.

Kevin--even only one example is fully sufficient.

The baptism in Scripture always means the same thing. It is a rebirth. We know this is spiritual. Jesus brought it at pentecost.

We see many examples of people who were never dunked in water--who were saved by their faith in Him anyway. That ought to be enough for you.

Whenever I read the word baptism--I think--born again. These things are simultaneous. The water ritual does not save you. Faith saves you.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.

"Kevin--even only one example is fully sufficient."

Where are the examples of your Holy Spirit baptism after what happened to the household of Cornelius??? Sorry, they just are not there... "The baptism in Scripture always means the same thing. It is a rebirth. We know this is spiritual. Jesus brought it at pentecost."

Baptism is what actually washes away our sins and what places us in the body of Christ... for this is what the Bible teaches...

"We see many examples of people who were never dunked in water--who were saved by their faith in Him anyway. That ought to be enough for you."

It is obvious that they are not located in the New Testament???

"Whenever I read the word baptism--I think--born again. These things are simultaneous. The water ritual does not save you. Faith saves you."

That is your problem Faith, you have been misled on the true meaning of baptism...

Faith does not save until it acts...

There is no such thing as salvation by "faith alone"...

I guess that John 3:5 means absolutely nothing to you am I right Faith???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 16, 2005.

John 3:5

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.

Rod,

Exactly!!! We are born again by the Spirit through the word of God which is what 1 Peter 1:23 states and being born again by water is our baptism in water for the remission of our sins...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.

Ridiculous Kevin.

The water is representitive of a deeper truth.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.

"...deeper truth"?? Is that a pun?

What is that deeper truth?

We are humans, born of water. We are alive when the Spirit indwells us. What deeper truth do you speak of?

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.

The deeper truth is that the saving baptism is Spiritual and it is of faith in Christ...salvation is not ours by some performance in a water ritual.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.

"Ridiculous Kevin. The water is representitive of a deeper truth."

No, not ridiculous Faith, it is actually what the Bible teaches... Water means exactly what it states... Water... And I challenge you to prove otherwise...

Unless one is baptized in water for the remission of their sins, they are still in their sins whether you choose to accept it or not for this is what has been plainly revealed in Scripture.

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.

Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ

Col 2:6-17

So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2005.

What in the world does this passage have to do with water Baptism. Christ orders Baptism, Faith. Are you saying this passage contradicts Christ's command?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 18, 2005.

I am saying that Christ's baptism is of the Holy Spirit. The water ritual was a forshadow of what was to come--the reality of Christ.

When Jesus says we must be born of water and Spirit--he is talking about being born-again.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2005.

"I am saying that Christ's baptism is of the Holy Spirit. The water ritual was a forshadow of what was to come--the reality of Christ."

Faith, you can assert this all you want, you still have not proven this to be true from God's word...

There is no such thing as a "water ritual" as you call it...

Baptism is the point at which our sins are forgiven...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 18, 2005.

"I am saying that Christ's baptism is of the Holy Spirit. The water ritual was a forshadow of what was to come--the reality of Christ."

POST ASCENSION

Acts 8:38 And as they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" . . . And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch; and he baptized him.. and when they came up out of the water . . .

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 18, 2005.

Right Kevin--baptism is the washing away of our sins. However--the word baptism is not accompanied with the word water.

Consider Paul's baptism:

Acts 9:17-19

Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord–Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here–has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

************

What was Paul's baptism? Do you think it was of the Holy Spirit in this verse--or of some water ritual?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2005.

Well, it would probably be something like what is found in the Eunuch's baptism, Chap 8, posted just above your post.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 18, 2005.

Paul was in a house. Did he run for the bathtub?

Nah--that's ridiculous.

The verse answers us.

Lord–Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here– has sent me so that you may see again and be *filled with the Holy Spirit*.”

Baptism by the Holy Spirit is the baptism that Jesus brings--the one that really counts. It's a revelation thing. Paul experienced revelation and believed. He sees.

John 1:29

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

I don't doubt that Paul was MIGHTILY baptized in the Holy Spirit as were all of the disciples.

Paul was baptized in water which was and still is normative for today. (See the baptism of the Eunuch) It is one of many commands of the Lord, and it is the first act of obedience to be given to the Lord by a brand-new disciple.

Saul/Paul received the Spirit when he was baptised in water.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.

The Scripture says nothing about water, Gail. It says much about the Holy Spirit though, doesn't it? It follows John 1:29-34 quite well.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

What are you saying, Faith, that Paul was never water baptized? Jesus was baptized in water as an example for us. All faithful obedient disciples receive water baptism, as did the Eunuch. And yes Paul was baptized in water, and received the holy spirit all at the same time AS THE VERSE INDICATES.

Why did Phillip baptize the Eunuch in water if that was an unnecessary "water ritual"?

Why did Jesus receive water baptism if this was an unnecessary "water ritual" and then command that his followers be baptized?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.

Do you think that Jesus was baptized in water to be saved?

Paul may have--later on--went through the ritual to express his faith in the same way that the Eunuch did. But the saving faith came much sooner, both for Paul and the Eunuch. The Holy Spirit comes upon us the moment we believe in Jesus Christ. That moment happened for the Eunuch while he was in the Scriptures.

Baptism doesn't necessarily mean water., though the water does symbolize the washing and rebirth of the soul in the believer.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

Baptism (per Strong's) to cover wholly with a fluid; to moisten, to immerse, to dip, to fully wet.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.

Baptism (per Strong's) to cover wholly with a fluid; to moisten, to immerse, to dip, to fully wet, to overwhelm.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.

Like I already said, Jesus was baptized, then the heavens opened and the Spirit descended upon him like a dove. He was setting an example for us.

Beyond that, I guess you'll have to ask Him.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.

What Jesus did was bring the reality of John's water baptism into focus--that reality being that the water was a foreshadow of the truth which is in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures say that John's water baptism was a foreshadow of the real baptism to come--which is of the Holy Spirit--as Jesus exampled for us in the Jordan River. Jesus ushered in the giving of the Holy Spirit. And by doing this at His water baptism--He fulled the Scriptures.

Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

I don't really have a problem with that, Faith. The mystery of baptism is vast and deep. The problem is that it seems you are suggesting that water baptism did not continue, or did not need to continue after the ascension.

Christ commanded that the disciples "baptize" and obviously they did just that, by water, I would be loathe to seek a different meaning other than what is provided by the explicit example of the Eunuch, and the Greek meaning of the word itself.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.

I think water baptism did continue--but only to express the deeper truth, which is that the person has been born-again by the Holy Spirit.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

Well, it is that, sure, but it's also "being baptised into His death, burial and resurrection," having our sins washed away -- all of those wonderful things -- the glorious removal of the weight of sin left in the waters of our baptism. Like Peter said, "It's not the removal of dirt from our flesh but an appeal to God for a clean conscience."

When Christ was baptized, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him, and so it is with us. It is a fathomless mystery -- delicious, enticing, glorious and supernatural.

The Eunuch -- what a dear sweet man -- he must have been burning in desire to get down in that water and experience that "time of refreshing" because he said "Look, there's water. Let's do it!"

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.

See, this is where we greatly differ. I do not see the water baptism as the moment when the Holy Spirit comes on us. If I thought that it took literal water for this to occur--then I suppose I would be in complete agreement with you.

But Jesus was putting an end to the water's necessity by fulfulling its meaning. That is what His baptism meant.

Being baptised into His death, burial and resurrection is something that happens when we are born-again. The water is simply an expression of this truth. But the experience--the rebirth occurs the moment we believe--not the moment we get dunked into water.

Think of your own rebirth, that moment when you were made new in Christ because you saw and believed. Did that happen for you when you were baptised in water? For me--it happened before I was ever baptized in water. I got baptized in water because I first believed.

Does the Bible say that we are born-again because we are baptised in water or because we believed?

The Eunuch's moment of faith and His receiving the Holy Spirit came at the time that he was in the Scriptures and first saw, and believed.

The same is true for Paul., and even the repentant thief on the cross.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

Well of course the Eunuch believed before he went into the water. Otherwise he would have had no yearning for the water. Sure -- belief precedes the act. I never said otherwise. And certainly when a person first responds to the promptings of the Spirit, there is great joy and a whole myriad of wonderful things happening; the prodigal has returned, the sinner is being reconciled to God!

But the act of baptism is more than a sign or a symbolic (though it is that), it is a means of tremendous grace. It is prescribed in scripture, and carried out in scripture. It is a mark of consecretion, a seal. As to the Holy Spirit, we need Him more and more and more everyday, not just once at believing, or once at baptism, but every single minute of every single day. Throughout our entire lives we respond to the Holy Spirit, or reject His counsels; that is the process of sanctification.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.

"Does the Bible say that we are born-again because we are baptised in water or because we believed?"

John 3:5 states, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Water = Water (i.e. baptism)... (See Acts 10:47-48 and 1 Peter 3:21- 21, Compare Ephesians 5:26-27 with 1 Peter 1:23).

You have no examples of Holy Spirit baptism in Scripture other than the two that I have told you many times before (The Jews on the day of Pentecost and the household of Cornelius) therefore, there is no such thing.

If there is such a thing as Holy Spirit baptism, please explain to us Faith how it was possible that people could be baptized in the name of the Lord and still not have the Holy Spirit??? If there is only one case (and there is - see Acts 8:12-18), then it defeats the very doctrine that you say is true...

The Holy Spirit was not given in the first century without the laying on of the Apostles hands and there were only two exceptions to this that I mentioned earlier...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 19, 2005.

Baptism is God's most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God's Lordship. St. Gregory.

Ahhh yes, it is grand grace indeed!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.

I just disagree Gail.., the baptism described in Scripture is always meant to be of the Holy Spirit.

To put so much emphasis on the act on man's part to be dipped in water--misses the deeper point altogether, as I have tried to show.

Man can have no credit whatsoever for God's abundant grace. It is given to us freely, not by anything we do.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 20, 2005.

Kevin--

Even Paul's baptism was of the Holy Spirit. He was baptized the moment he could see. The verse says nothing about a water ritual--and your assumption that reference to baptism automatically means a water ritual performed by man, is where you go wrong.

When Jesus was baptized--he brought with Him the new and better baptism of the Holy Spirit--as the Scripture in John 1 tells us He would do when He came.

Baptism is a rebirth and it is spiritual--being born-again by the Holy Spirit. The water is symbolic of this much deeper truth.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 20, 2005.

Faith, you need to stop getting all of your mis-information from Dave Hunt. I read his article on Baptism, and you are right in line with him, aren't you? The guy is a lunatic fringe whose research and sources have gained him "the lack of credibility award" by his own Protestant peers. He is an embarassment to Protestant apologists.

Baptism = bastismo (Greek) according to Strongs, is "to immerse, to dip, to moisten, to cover with fluid," which is the meaning of the "baptism" of Paul.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 20, 2005.

Wow oh wow!

Gail, I didn't even mention him or anything he wrote and you are going to change the course of this conversation to author bashing?

I guess it's a sign that you are out of material?

I have to say that I have never read what Dave Hunt believes about baptism. I base my belief from within the Scriptures--and naturally I gravitate towards people who believe as I do. That is why I worship where I do--for example. That is also why I like Dave Hunt.

But as far as understanding baptism, I have no idea where he stands.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 20, 2005.

Google it up and see for yourself. You are a clone of Dave Hunt. What is so sad is that his anti-Catholic bias is pushing him into the heresy he so despises. Satan loves the two of you. You're doing his work for him -- he has you both desecrating the sacraments! The reason why you and Hunt are so in tune with one another is because you're both listening to the same demons.

Gail

P.S. Strong's concordance puts the issue of "water" baptism to rest. I don't need any other material.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 20, 2005.

You have an excellent eye, Gail!

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 20, 2005.

"Even Paul's baptism was of the Holy Spirit. He was baptized the moment he could see."

There is no proof that Paul's baptism was "of the Holy Spirit" as you assert above... The removing of scales from his eyes had nothing to do with his reception of the Holy Spirit...

"The verse says nothing about a water ritual--and your assumption that reference to baptism automatically means a water ritual performed by man, is where you go wrong."

It most certainly does for Ananias told Paul in Acts 22:16, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

One cannot "wash away" their sins unless they are baptized in water... There is no assumption here, this is what the text actually states...

"When Jesus was baptized--he brought with Him the new and better baptism of the Holy Spirit--as the Scripture in John 1 tells us He would do when He came."

As I continue to tell you, there were only 2 cases of Holy Spirit baptism and I challenge you to prove otherwise... I am sure that if you had other examples, you would provide them... Since you do not, your doctrine of Holy Spirit baptism is false... I even gave you an example to which you conveniently ignored... Why is this the case Faith??? If Holy Spirit baptism as you allege is in effect, then why did those people who were baptized in water for the remission of their sins not receive the Holy Spirit until the Apostles came and laid their hands upon them???

"Baptism is a rebirth and it is spiritual--being born-again by the Holy Spirit. The water is symbolic of this much deeper truth."

This is a continuing assumption of yours with not one shred of scriptural support...

Unless one is baptized "in water" for the remission of their sins in obedience to the gospel of Christ, they cannot be saved...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 20, 2005.

Lol!!

Well Gee Gail.,you sure do change character when you are losing an argument. Falling back on character assasination is a dead give- away...especially when you have to attack the character of someone not even involved in the debate.

My sole source in this is the Bible itself. I don't need a dictionary to explain the biblical meaning of baptism. We know that there are two references to baptism., one with water and one with the Holy Spirit.

Paul was baptised by the Holy Spirit--as we all are.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 20, 2005.

Kevin,

I did provide an example of baptism by the Holy Spirit. It is Paul's baptism. You can reject it if you want, but its there.

But even only two examples is more than enough proof that baptism by the Holy Spirit is true.

As John the Baptist said, Jesus brings the better baptism.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 20, 2005.

Woman, you would argue with a fence post!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 20, 2005.

Faith,

Please answer this question that you continue to ignore:

"If Holy Spirit baptism as you allege is in effect, then why did those people who were baptized in water for the remission of their sins not receive the Holy Spirit until the Apostles came and laid their hands upon them???"

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 20, 2005.

"I did provide an example of baptism by the Holy Spirit. It is Paul's baptism. You can reject it if you want, but its there."

There is no proof, only your assertion that Paul's baptism was "by the Holy Spirit"...

"But even only two examples is more than enough proof that baptism by the Holy Spirit is true."

And only one example that proves otherwise is required to show that you don't know what you are talking about...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 20, 2005.

Kevin,

You asked:

"If Holy Spirit baptism as you allege is in effect, then why did those people who were baptized in water for the remission of their sins not receive the Holy Spirit until the Apostles came and laid their hands upon them???"

I would think that the question was in their faith--where was their faith., was it in the Word--or were they baptised in water with no meaning?

It had to be that they receive the Holy Spirit because water baptism by itself does not save.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 21, 2005.

"I would think that the question was in their faith--where was their faith., was it in the Word--or were they baptised in water with no meaning?"

No Faith you are misinformed... They were baptized in water for the remission of their sins... They didn't receive the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit could only be handed down by the laying on of the Apostles hands...

"It had to be that they receive the Holy Spirit because water baptism by itself does not save."

Again, there is no such thing as "Holy Spirit baptism" as you allege... Since there are no Apostles around to lay their hands on someone, the gifts of the Spirit that came with the laying on of the Apostles hands are no longer in effect... Holy Spirit baptism is not available for us today... The gifts of the Spirit are no longer needed since we have the complete and confirmed word of God revealed to us in the Bible...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 21, 2005.

Gal 3:

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing–if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[b] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 21, 2005.

Those passages are concerning the "Book of the Law" and those who seek justification by remaining in judaism.

Matthew 12:50 For whoever DOES the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother.

Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, 1) "Repent, and 2) let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; 3) and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 21, 2005.

Faith,

Galatians chapter 2 does not help your case...

When Paul made this statement "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" in Galatians 3:2, he was not telling them that they only had to believe and they were saved... They had to do what they were commanded in order to be saved, namely being baptized for the remission of their sins...

The Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit were only given in the first century by the laying on of the apostles hands and I have told you this before and you continue to reject what has been plainly revealed in God's word...

Here is the passage for you that settles the matter:

"And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money," (Acts 8:18).

Baptism in the Holy Spirit or Holy Spirit baptism as you call it was only given by the laying on of the apostles hands as clearly indicated above...

There are no 2,000 year old apostles to lay their hands on someone, so Holy Spirit baptism is not available for us today...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 22, 2005.

Kevin,

What the disciples/apostles could do then, has been passed on to us. Jesus told the early believers to pass on everything He commanded of them-- to all new believers, and so on and so forth.....down to this very day.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 22, 2005.

"What the disciples/apostles could do then, has been passed on to us. Jesus told the early believers to pass on everything He commanded of them-- to all new believers, and so on and so forth.....down to this very day."

Really Faith??? Please tell us which of the 9 gifts of the Spirit are available today???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 22, 2005.

The apostles were able to raise the dead... Please tell us Faith who is able to do this today???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 23, 2005.

All the gifts of the Spirit are active in the Church today. they were and are gifts to the Church, not gifts to the Apostles. As long as the Church endures the gifts will be active; and the Church will endure until the end of time. We have a divine guarantee of that fact.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 23, 2005.

Kevin-

I do not believe that raising people from the dead was a spiritual gift that has been passed on. It isn't listed anywhere in the Bible as being such. Miracles like that were performed to confirm the authenticity of the Word. But the Scriptures are complete now. However, evangelism continues through us and the Bible does tell us that we have the same mission and abilities as disciples ourselves to lead people to Christ.

The laying on of hands, by-the-way--is not what brings the Holy Spirit on us--it is faith. The laying on of hands is for testimony-- it is a power of suggestion for the benefit of expanding God's church of faithful believers.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 23, 2005.

"All the gifts of the Spirit are active in the Church today. they were and are gifts to the Church, not gifts to the Apostles. As long as the Church endures the gifts will be active; and the Church will endure until the end of time. We have a divine guarantee of that fact."

This is a nice assertion Paul of course the burden of proof lies upon your Church for you claim that these gifts are still active today then I say to you Prove It!!!

There is also no guarantee that these gifts would continue and unfortunately you have been misled in to believing this error...

Faith,

You wrote, "I do not believe that raising people from the dead was a spiritual gift that has been passed on. It isn't listed anywhere in the Bible as being such."

This is not what you said earlier... You said that "all" of the gifts were handed down... If you like, I can quote your very words...

"Miracles like that were performed to confirm the authenticity of the Word."

Exactly...

"But the Scriptures are complete now. However, evangelism continues through us and the Bible does tell us that we have the same mission and abilities as disciples ourselves to lead people to Christ."

Please tell us Faith which of the 9 gifts of the Spirit are available to the disciples of Christ today???

"The laying on of hands, by-the-way--is not what brings the Holy Spirit on us--it is faith."

Again you contradict what the Bible states... The Bible actually states that the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of the apostles hands... and of course you deny what the Bible teaches... This does not surprise me Faith as you deny many truths in the Bible that are plainly taught...

"The laying on of hands is for testimony-- it is a power of suggestion for the benefit of expanding God's church of faithful believers."

This is a fine assertion however, it is void of any truth... The laying on of hands today does nothing... The only thing that has the power today to cause one to be led to Christ is God's word. (Romans 10:17). For the word of God is living and powerful. (Hebrews 4:12).

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 23, 2005.

No Kevin,

I never deny God's Word. I deny your interpretation. Big, big, difference.

I do not believe that raising people from the dead is a listed gift.

The five gifts listed by Paul in Ephesians include:

Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher.

Paul tells us that there are a variety of gifts, but the same Spirit. The spirit gifts some people with special wisdom, knowledge, faith and the like. Further gifts listed are things such as faith, discernment of spirits, the gift of helps which would be in supporting or assisting the Body, and the gift of governments which carries the idea of steering-piloting or directing.

By His Spirit, God has provided for the operation of His Body in history. We are even told to earnestly desire the greater gifts.

I think that there are some signs of the Holy Spirit that people have still today, such as healing, and miracles and speaking in tongues-- that are there to edify God and to be a testimony of God--they are not for personal use and not everyone can exhibit these signs--yet they still have the Spirit in them if they believe. Pentecostals think that this is like a second baptism when people suddenly show these signs. I have a girlfriend who suddenly was gifted with the ability to speak in tongues. She never does it in front of me though, so I can't say I know much about it.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 24, 2005.

Faith is right, Kevin, there is nothing in scripture that states the gifts have ceased. The "that which is Perfect" that you mentioned is a person -- Jesus. When "that which is perfect" comes again, then we will not longer need the gifts because we will HAVE HIM! The Church's pilgramage on earth will end, and we will live with Him forever and ever, Amen!

Though the gifts may not be as "obvious" as they were at the beginning, they are certainly available and NECESSARY. Any great "work of God" must be done through the Spirit of God. Otherwise it's a dead work. I think the Pentecostals are a little overboard, especially in that most of them believe that "speaking in tongues" is THE gift, which it clearly is not, as it is only one of many. But, "don't the baby out with the bathwater" as they say. The gift of speaking in tongues WHEN DONE RIGHTLY as described by scripture, is a magnificant gift, but as St. Paul says, "Charity" is the end-all of spiritual gifts. That is the gift to seek!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 24, 2005.

Faith wrote, "I never deny God's Word. I deny your interpretation. Big, big, difference."

No in many instances you deny God's word... Not just this time...

Faith wrote, "I do not believe that raising people from the dead is a listed gift."

I didn't say that it was listed as a gift... I asked if anyone was able to do this today...

Faith wrote, "The five gifts listed by Paul in Ephesians include: Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher."

You are mistaken, these are offices not gifts... There were nine (9) gifts of the Spirit... (See 1 Corinthians 12:8-10).

Faith wrote, "Paul tells us that there are a variety of gifts, but the same Spirit. The spirit gifts some people with special wisdom, knowledge, faith and the like. Further gifts listed are things such as faith, discernment of spirits, the gift of helps which would be in supporting or assisting the Body, and the gift of governments which carries the idea of steering-piloting or directing."

These gifts were only given as stated in scripture until as Ephesians 4:13-14 states, "13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,"

Faith wrote, "By His Spirit, God has provided for the operation of His Body in history. We are even told to earnestly desire the greater gifts."

Sorry to disappoint you, none of the nine gifts of the Spirit are available today...

Faith wrote, "I think that there are some signs of the Holy Spirit that people have still today, such as healing, and miracles and speaking in tongues-- that are there to edify God and to be a testimony of God--they are not for personal use and not everyone can exhibit these signs--yet they still have the Spirit in them if they believe."

If these signs were still available today then people would be able to prove it... No one today has the gift of healing nor can anyone speak in a tongue (that is another language) of which they have never heard...

Faith wrote, "Pentecostals think that this is like a second baptism when people suddenly show these signs. I have a girlfriend who suddenly was gifted with the ability to speak in tongues. She never does it in front of me though, so I can't say I know much about it."

Yea, they claim a great many things... The problem is they cannot prove that these "tongues" come from God... I would like to see one of them communicate in a language that they have no knowledge of like those in the first century were able to do... This they cannot do...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 24, 2005.

Gail,

You wrote, "Faith is right, Kevin, there is nothing in scripture that states the gifts have ceased."

Yes, the gifts have ceased Gail and unfortunately you have been taught error...

You wrote, "The "that which is Perfect" that you mentioned is a person -- Jesus. When "that which is perfect" comes again, then we will not longer need the gifts because we will HAVE HIM! The Church's pilgramage on earth will end, and we will live with Him forever and ever, Amen!"

Actually Gail the text states, "When that which is perfect is come..."

Not, "When He Who is perfect is come..."

This cannot be Jesus...

The word "perfect" means "complete" or "whole." The phrase, "that which," indicates the word "perfect" refers to something, not someone. Yet, some like you Gail apply this to Jesus Christ. You say these miraculous gifts were designed to continue until the Lord comes again. Since the Lord has not come again, you believe the gifts of the Spirit continue.

This cannot be true.

I say again, Paul did not write "when He who is perfect has come." He said "that which is perfect." Paul's words do not fit the context if we apply them to Jesus. Also, we must remember that the word "perfect" literally means "complete" or "whole." It does not refer to sinless perfection, but to maturity, or completion. That is its meaning in the original language of the New Testament. In 1 Corinthians 13, the completion of the New Testament is under consideration.

There is something else in 1 Corinthians 13:13 which clearly shows that "perfect" cannot refer to Christ's second coming. Hope will no longer exist when Christ comes again. Remember, Paul wrote "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three." In other words, faith, hope and love will abide after that which is perfect is come. Now, when Christ comes again, will hope continue? Will we still be hoping to see our Lord once He has come again? Of course not. He will be with us! Therefore, "that which is perfect" in I Corinthians 13:10 cannot refer to Christ. Notice another of Paul's statements about hope in Romans 8:24: "For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?" Hope that is seen is not hope. When I have seen that which I have hoped for, it is no longer hope, it has become reality. So Paul asks... for why does one still hope for what he sees?"

Here is a summary of Paul's inspired argument showing "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ's second coming. Paul states that hope will continue after "that which is perfect has come" (1 Cor. 13:13). However, there will be no hope for Christ's coming after He has come (Romans 8:24). Therefore, "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ and His second coming.

In 1 Corinthians 13: 11, Paul uses the illustration of the child who grows to the full-grown man. Paul was showing how the infant church was to grow to completion or wholeness with the completed written revelation given by the Holy Spirit. The Bible itself claims to be all-sufficient. Why do we need miraculous gifts now that the Bible is complete? We are now in the time Paul, in I Corinthians 13:8-13, predicted would come. The fact that the Holy Spirit is not operating directly and miraculously today does not mean God is not active in the lives of His people. The providence of God is promised in the Scriptures, and it is present with His people today. God answers prayer through His providence. God can and does overrule in matters, through natural means, without the need for a direct miraculous operation of His Holy Spirit. The Spirit influences today by means of the inspired Word!

The Word of God is all-sufficient to produce obedient faith. "And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30,31). The "perfect" Word provides all we need to know, and the providence of God is promised to us as we make our way toward the eternal home of the soul.

This is why Paul said the gifts were given to confirm the word in Ephesians 4:7-16. (Read verses 7-12). Notice verse 13 on why the gifts were given and some were given to be apostles, prophets, etc… (Read verse 13). With the written New Testament (verse 14), we would be able to Test the false teachers. (Read verses 14-16).

You wrote, "Though the gifts may not be as "obvious" as they were at the beginning, they are certainly available and NECESSARY."

Where is your proof that they are still available today???

You wrote, "Any great "work of God" must be done through the Spirit of God. Otherwise it's a dead work."

True and since you claim the gifts of the Spirit still exist today, then please tell us who has them???

You wrote, "I think the Pentecostals are a little overboard, especially in that most of them believe that "speaking in tongues" is THE gift, which it clearly is not, as it is only one of many. But, "don't the baby out with the bathwater" as they say. The gift of speaking in tongues WHEN DONE RIGHTLY as described by scripture, is a magnificant gift, but as St. Paul says, "Charity" is the end- all of spiritual gifts. That is the gift to seek!"

Yes, the Pentecostals deceive many by their so-called speaking in tongues which is nothing more than gibberish... There are only three things that remain and they are Faith, Hope and Love...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 24, 2005.

Kevin,

There are in fact many people who do indeed speak in tongues., and there are others who can interpret their messages. This should always be done in church for the purpose of edifying God., as Paul teaches.

My church discourages this during regular services because it scares some people and we are an evangelical church. Our purpose is to reach the unchurched. So it isn't the atmosphere during regular service. However--during our small group Bible studies--it does occur, though I have not been involved in any myself.

I think we have to truly desire it, if God is to give it to us. The Spirit knows what we are ready for, and some people are just going to serve God through other gifts, and that is fine.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 24, 2005.

Hi Kevin,

Perhaps the "that which is perfect" refers to the Body of Christ; i.e., the maturity of the Church -- ALL of the Church. You and I and everyone else can only speculate here as to what the "that" is. There a few problems, though, with the "that" being the canon. First of all, there is no indication that Paul knew he was even writing a letter that would later be part of the canon of the N.T., or that he knew there would be a new "canon" at all.

You stated that the N.T. is sufficent to equip every believer and therefore when the N.T. was complete, every believer was therefore fully able to equip himself and needed no further gifts of the spirit.

But there are real big practical problems with that. The New Testament was nearly completely written by the end of the 1st century, that's true. However, it was not canonized until Carthage, and since there were no printing presses until the 1500's or so, then how could the believer "equip" himself with the "perfect" that had come? Not to mention, that illiteracy was a huge problem in Europe all through the Middle Ages. So it wasn't like Christians could run down to the local Christian bookstore and pick up a copy of the Bible so they could "equip themselves with that which was perfect."

Christ's body needs the gifts, as long as the gifts do not take the place of the Giver. So often, "spirit led" churches tend to seek that which in the Master's hand, rather than the Master Himself.

Another problem with the canon being the "be all to end all," is that "knowledge puffs up but love edifies." In order words, you can have all the head knowledge in the world, but without "love" you are clanging symbol. We need both, the Holy Word and the Spirit of Life, for the "letter kills" but the "Spirit gives life."

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 24, 2005.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Clearly this verse is refering to the culmination of the end of the church age, when Christ returns and establishes His body in eternal glory. For now, we know in part--but then, we will see everything clearly...this is without a doubt in reference to being in Him at the end of the age. Heaven is perfection, and only those found perfect in Christ will be there.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 24, 2005.

I would have to agree with you Faith. The maturity of the Bride!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 24, 2005.

Faith,

You wrote, "There are in fact many people who do indeed speak in tongues., and there are others who can interpret their messages."

Ha, this is mere speculation on your part... There is no one on this earth who can speak in tongues (i.e. a language that they have never studied and have no prior knowledge of before speaking it) and I challenge you to prove it!

You wrote, "This should always be done in church for the purpose of edifying God., as Paul teaches."

Spiritual gifts are no longer required as we have the complete word of God that is as 2 Tim 3:16-17 says, "...profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

You wrote, "My church discourages this during regular services because it scares some people and we are an evangelical church. Our purpose is to reach the unchurched. So it isn't the atmosphere during regular service. However--during our small group Bible studies--it does occur, though I have not been involved in any myself."

Ok, you can make assertions all day long, until it is actually proven to be true, this is all it will be your assertion...

You wrote, "I think we have to truly desire it, if God is to give it to us. The Spirit knows what we are ready for, and some people are just going to serve God through other gifts, and that is fine."

As I have said and will continue to say, there are no spiritual gifts available any more as there are no longer any more apostles left on this earth to pass them down by the laying on of their hands...

Gail,

You wrote, "Perhaps the "that which is perfect" refers to the Body of Christ; i.e., the maturity of the Church -- ALL of the Church. You and I and everyone else can only speculate here as to what the "that" is."

There is only one truth Gail, not many...

You wrote, "There a few problems, though, with the "that" being the canon. First of all, there is no indication that Paul knew he was even writing a letter that would later be part of the canon of the N.T., or that he knew there would be a new "canon" at all."

The apostle Paul "knew" he was "writing" Scripture for he "specifically" stated in 1 Corinthians 14:37, "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."

What Paul "wrote" were commands of the Lord.

In John 20:29-31, the apostle John "wrote" so people would have an eyewitness record of Jesus miracles and thereby could believe in Jesus and have life in His name, even though they did not personally see Him (21:24,25).

In 1 John 1:1-4; 2:1-17, The apostle John "wrote" so people could have his eyewitness testimony regarding Jesus, could have fellowship with God, could know we should not sin, and could be told God's commands we should obey.

In Revelation 1:1,2,10,11,19; chap. 2 & 3, The apostle John was instructed by Jesus to "write" a message from Jesus and the Spirit to instruct the churches of Asia regarding Jesus will for them (cf. 14:13; 19:9; 21:5).

In Ephesians 3:3-5, What The apostle Paul received by revelation from the Spirit, he "wrote" so others could understand what he had received.

In 1 Timothy 5:18, That which is properly called "Scripture" includes quotes from New Testament "writing" (Luke 10:7) right along with Old Testament writings.

In 2 Peter 3:15,16, The Apostle Peter classifies Paul's epistles right along with "other scripture". Hence, they should be treated with the same respect as any other Scripture.

In 2 Timothy 3:14-17, All Scripture (both OT and NT) is inspired by God and was given to teach and instruct men so they could know all good works. Just as Old Testament writings were given to be a guide that people must follow to please God in their day, so the New Testament serves as an inspired guide in this age.

All men and women, need to know God's will, and God desires everyone to have that opportunity. To meet this need, God inspired men to record His message in "writing" in the Scriptures.

You wrote, "You stated that the N.T. is sufficent to equip every believer and therefore when the N.T. was complete, every believer was therefore fully able to equip himself and needed no further gifts of the spirit."

That is correct...

You wrote, "But there are real big practical problems with that. The New Testament was nearly completely written by the end of the 1st century, that's true. However, it was not canonized until Carthage, and since there were no printing presses until the 1500's or so, then how could the believer "equip" himself with the "perfect" that had come? Not to mention, that illiteracy was a huge problem in Europe all through the Middle Ages. So it wasn't like Christians could run down to the local Christian bookstore and pick up a copy of the Bible so they could "equip themselves with that which was perfect."

This is the standard Catholic diatribe that the word of God wasn't canoninzed... blah, blah, blah... Please can't you do any better than that??? If you think that for 1500 years there were no copies of God's word around that could cause one to have faith then you are sincerely mistaken... Jesus said in Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

You can rest assured that He meant what He said...

You wrote, "Christ's body needs the gifts, as long as the gifts do not take the place of the Giver. So often, "spirit led" churches tend to seek that which in the Master's hand, rather than the Master Himself."

The church does not need any more "gifts"... The man of God can be complete by obeying God's commandments in the New Testament... Nothing else is required by God other than to obey His commandments...

You wrote, "Another problem with the canon being the "be all to end all," is that "knowledge puffs up but love edifies." In order words, you can have all the head knowledge in the world, but without "love" you are clanging symbol. We need both, the Holy Word and the Spirit of Life, for the "letter kills" but the "Spirit gives life."

Gail, you have been misled... The Holy Spirit only dwells in the Christian through the word of God... One cannot have faith without "hearing" God's word (Romans 10:17) and doing what He commands... Yes Love edifies, but how does one learn to love??? Is it through obeying God's commandments in the New Testament to show the fruit of the Spirit in his/her life, or is it something that happens independent of God's commands??? If you say it happens outside of God's commands, then where is the proof of this assertion???

Faith quotes 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 and then says, "Clearly this verse is refering to the culmination of the end of the church age, when Christ returns and establishes His body in eternal glory. For now, we know in part--but then, we will see everything clearly...this is without a doubt in reference to being in Him at the end of the age. Heaven is perfection, and only those found perfect in Christ will be there."

We can see everything there is to see "clearly" right now!!! The kingdom of God is here on this earth right now!! There will be no future kingdom of God on this earth... Christians are being perfected as we speak through obedience to God's word right this moment...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 24, 2005.

Kevin, you simply have not proven that the "that which is perfect" is the canon of scripture. You are speculating. And, no, this is not standard "Catholic diatribe" The N.T. canon was argued and debated vehemently and then finally canonized at Carthage. Some would say it wasn't even canonized until Trent (though I disagree with that assertion). In order to get a copy of the Bible prior to the printing presses, one would have to hire "copiests" to hand write portions of the text. That is a reality, not "Catholic diatribe."

Let me as you this, Kevin, do you need God's grace for anything that you do? Or are you completely self-sufficient?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 25, 2005.

Kevin, you simply have not proven that the "that which is perfect" is the canon of scripture. You are speculating. And, no, this is not standard "Catholic diatribe" The N.T. canon was argued and debated vehemently and then finally canonized at Carthage. Some would say it wasn't even canonized until Trent (though I disagree with that assertion).

So it is your belief that the moment the writers quit "writing" it was up to the individual to ascertain what was in those writings (without copy machines) so they could receive the grace from God they needed to obey His Word?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 25, 2005.

Gail,

You wrote, "Kevin, you simply have not proven that the "that which is perfect" is the canon of scripture. You are speculating."

Obviously you did not read what I wrote, otherwise you would not make this statement... There is no speculation in what I wrote, only the truth... Why didn't you bother to refute what I wrote instead of just saying "You are speculating"???

You wrote, "And, no, this is not standard "Catholic diatribe" The N.T. canon was argued and debated vehemently and then finally canonized at Carthage. Some would say it wasn't even canonized until Trent (though I disagree with that assertion). In order to get a copy of the Bible prior to the printing presses, one would have to hire "copiests" to hand write portions of the text. That is a reality, not "Catholic diatribe."

The word of God was first spoken orally in the first century and that is how it was given to the people... When the word of God was finally written down, then there was no more need for the spoken word or traditions... Yes, it is the standard Catholic diatribe for that is the same argument that you use over, and over and over to try to prove the legitimacy of the Catholic Church... In all ages true Christians have been guided by the same source or standard the word of God. The word was delivered at first in oral form only, then both orally and written, and now only in written form. When the apostles and prophets died, their inspired writings became the only source of authority in religion.

The apostles put their writings into circulation and to claim that the word of God was not available to the people until the Catholic Church compiled it into one volume is absurd...

You wrote, "Let me as you this, Kevin, do you need God's grace for anything that you do? Or are you completely self-sufficient?"

This has nothing to do with the conversation we are having on whether or not the words "that which is perfect" means the completed New Testament or whether it means Jesus...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 25, 2005.

Yes, Kevin, I read every word of your post as I always do.

"Let me ask you this, Kevin, do you need God's grace for anything that you do? Or are you completely self-sufficient?"

I'm simply trying to understand whether you feel you must rely on God's grace, or whether you feel that pure self-will, based on the Word, is all you need to live out your earthly sojourn in a manner pleasing to the Lord. It has everything to do with spiritual gifts (or graces), which is precisely what a "gift" is.

Secondly, I would recommend you go to a website that Faith linked on another thread concerning the canonicity of scripture itself. It is not a Catholic website but was produced at least in part by Historian Bruce Metzger. It shows precisely how we came to have the N.T., how each book was disputed, by whom, and when, fully categorized, charted and dated. I don't think that the scenario you laid out earlier concerning the canon's completion and dissemination is feasible in light of the historical facts.

http://www.bible-researcher.com

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 25, 2005.

Gail,

You wrote, "Yes, Kevin, I read every word of your post as I always do."

The reason I asked you this is that you didn't bother to respond what I wrote and merely said that I did not prove my point... That is all that I am saying... If what I said was not true, then at least make an attempt to show where I did err in my post...

You wrote, "Let me ask you this, Kevin, do you need God's grace for anything that you do? Or are you completely self-sufficient?"

Then stated, "I'm simply trying to understand whether you feel you must rely on God's grace, or whether you feel that pure self-will, based on the Word, is all you need to live out your earthly sojourn in a manner pleasing to the Lord. It has everything to do with spiritual gifts (or graces), which is precisely what a "gift" is."

I don't deny the providence of God and always pray for guidance and assistance in doing God's will however, we do have a part in our salvation and we must do our best to live in a manner that is pleasing to the Lord. Spiritual gifts are not required in order for one to be "pleasing to the Lord"...

You wrote, "Secondly, I would recommend you go to a website that Faith linked on another thread concerning the canonicity of scripture itself. It is not a Catholic website but was produced at least in part by Historian Bruce Metzger. It shows precisely how we came to have the N.T., how each book was disputed, by whom, and when, fully categorized, charted and dated. I don't think that the scenario you laid out earlier concerning the canon's completion and dissemination is feasible in light of the historical facts. http://www.bible-researcher.com"

You can believe all you want about so-called "historical facts" Gail, what I stated is what happened.. Do you think that God would leave His people without His word until the Catholic Church canonized the Bible??? I think not...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 26, 2005.

Hi Kevin:

"I don't deny the providence of God and always pray for guidance and assistance in doing God's will however, we do have a part in our salvation and we must do our best to live in a manner that is pleasing to the Lord." You know that I agree with you!

But that's what I'm talking about "praying for guidance, God's providence." I consider those to be spiritual gifts. Maybe what you're talking about and what I'm talking about are two different things. I don't believe that what happened in Acts happens today like that! It was necessary then for many reasons. I just believe that the spirit of God enables us through his graces to do anything He has called us to do. For instance, if God calls someone to start an orphanage in Romania, I believe He will enable his servant through His spirit to accomplish the task. Or, someone is distressed and heartsick, then the Lord may put someone in that person's path with a "word of comfort." Or someone has a problem, and God may give that person "wisdom" that is from on high.

Then you said, "You can believe all you want about so- called "historical facts" Gail, what I stated is what happened.. Do you think that God would leave His people without His word until the Catholic Church canonized the Bible??? I think not... "

No, I do not believe that Kevin. The letters were copied and circulated between churches and read at worship. The reason why I posted that link is because it has a breakdown of differing "lists" of the N.T. canon up until the matter was finally settled. My point was that the N.T. canon was complete in that it had been written, but the decision as to which letters would "make it in" came much later. For instance, the "Letters of Clement" were hot, the Shepherd of Hermes letter was hot, and many other "spurious writings" had to be sifted through.

I was not raised Catholic, Kevin. I looked at historical facts presented OUTSIDE of the Church to form an opinion about just who "she" is. So if you think I just regurgitate what the Catholic Church has taught me, you would be utterly wrong. I look for reliable sources PERIOD! Bruce Metzger is a reliable source, and he is NOT Catholic.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 26, 2005.

Gail,

Maybe we just misunderstood each other after all!!! :-)

Sometimes it is a painful process to get to a point where you realize this...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 27, 2005.

Yes, conversing via "cyberspace" sometimes does have its inconveniences and lends itself easily to "misunderstanding"

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 27, 2005.

I really do enjoy debating you, though, Kevin. You are very consistent and logical in your presentation of scripture!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 27, 2005.

One of those times I agree with you, Kevin.

Do you think that God would leave His people without His word until the Catholic Church canonized the Bible??? I think not..

Precisely, Kevin. Yahweh cannot condem people to damnation, either for not believing in Jesus.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 27, 2005.

Gail,

Thanks for your kind words... It is my belief that there is only one way to interpret Scripture and most of the time the Bible is it's best interpreter...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 27, 2005.

True, so very true!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 27, 2005.