So many dead, missing, and injured. My heart aches for these people as the numbers of dead keeps rising and for those who survived but have lost everything. Let us all please keep these people in our thoughts and in our prayers. And if possible donate to causes that will help them. The Red Cross for example. Have a good day everyone and God bless.

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), December 29, 2004

Answers

I agree, Suzanne. Good idea.

-- ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), December 29, 2004.

Catholic Relief Services

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), December 29, 2004.

Thanks for the link, Brian. I will be calling and making a donation.

Thanks and glory be to God !

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), December 29, 2004.

Thanks for the link Brian. Great suggestion Suzanne. Our hearts go out to our brothers and sisters.

-- ANDY s ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 29, 2004.

With all due sympathy and respect for the dead;

It was some 2 years back we received a truly pathetic message here. It was from a Christian in the Mollukka Islands, somewhere in the region hit hardest in the present tragedy. I understood him to be pleading with us all; alert our western leaders somehow, as Christian brethren; to the genocidal attacks upon them by Muslims of the Tamil population. He cried that Christians were being brutally slain all over the islands. Inside their very churches by militant Islamic neighbors all around them. --Whole villages were slaughtered.

Many of these criminals have now died, very surely; a sad end to this chapter of Christian persecution. And yes; we are called to forgive, and now to aid them in their despair. The shoe being on the other foot. What else can we do, but suffer patiently at the hands of those who hate Christians? Let's pray for an end to the hatred.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 29, 2004.

and Jesus said to do WHAT to those who hate us?

The strongest message to those who would persecute Christians is to show true Christian love..my heart aches for those who are suffering such emotional and physical pain. The enormity of such a disaster is almost inconceivable. I don't care who these folks are..I don't care if there are folks suffering who are the the worst persecutors of my faith on the face of the earth. If I were able, I would dry their tears and bandage their wounds for HIS sake.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 29, 2004.

Sorry Eugene your memory must be a bit confused. The Molucca islands are in the far east of Indonesia, thousands of miles away from and unaffected by the tsunami. The majority of Moluccans are Christian and 2 to 5 years ago they were subject to brutal attacks by muslims (generally not the local muslims who have lived peacefully with them for centuries, but fundamentalist troublemakers from Java intent on stirring up sectarian hatred). Thank God this has died down in the last year or two as the Indonesian government has cracked down on the fundamentalist gangs. The only part of Indonesia affected by the tsunami is the far western province of Aceh which is almost 100% muslim. There are few or no Tamils living in either Aceh or the Moluccas.

The Tamils are a race inhabiting parts of SE India and N and E Sri Lanka. Most are Hindu though some are Christian. Some of them (the Tamil Tigers) have been fighting a civil war against the Sri Lankan government. Most of the rest of the Sri Lankan people (Singhalese) are Buddhist. There are few Muslims in Sri Lanka. There have been atrocities on both sides in the war though there has been a wobbly ceasefire for a year or so.

It is extremely unlikely that any of the victims of the tsunami has ever murdered Christians. Please do not let any such consideration affect your generosity to the victims of this disaster.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 29, 2004.

It is extremely unlikely that any of the victims of the tsunami has ever murdered Christians. Please do not let any such consideration affect your generosity to the victims of this disaster.

i think the important fact that we are to gleen from this, regardless of guilty parties, is that even if the worst christian murderer had been among the victims we should STILL not hesitate to send aid to our fellow man, it is christian charity and livelihood that has won more conversions than any amount of verbal pandering.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 29, 2004.

I accept the obvious fact many innocents are victims of these tsunamis; as well as large numbers of evil-doers. I only mention these because they are now desperate and we must be compassionate. For the sake of the good ones we must have pity. (I noticed these loving people are turning away aid from Israel.)

I only wish you could see the message we received here from that one Christian.

As for this treacly advice now from sanctimonious Catholics on patrol vs. uncharitable guys like yours truly I'd like to say: Teach your children. And pray for them.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 29, 2004.

Eugene, we must help them, not “for the sake of the good ones” but because they are ALL humans made in the image of God. Even if they were ALL murderers we would be obliged to help them. I don’t know if you regard me as one of the “treacly sanctimonious” ones, but I don’t think anyone accused you of being "uncharitable".

“these loving people are turning away aid from Israel.” I assume you’re referring to Sri Lanka’s request to Israel to drop its plan to send in a company of Israeli soldiers to accompany its aid team. They are now sending the aid minus the soldiers. You don’t seem to appreciate that Sri Lanka is facing the nightmare of the tsunami ON TOP OF a disastrous civil war. To put Israeli soldiers into the mix would be pouring gasoline on a situation which is already politically and militarily explosive as well as a natural disaster.

It’s a shame that the US’s aid contribution is only a fraction of the amount being spent on the upcoming inauguration extravaganza. Not to mention the billion dollars being spent every week on trying to subjugate Iraq. And after more than $100 million had been cut from already allocated food aid money, which NGOs had already put into their budgets. With this terrible disaster even less money will go to the pre-budgeted programs.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 30, 2004.

Steve: Cut it out. You're a fine Catholic but why make a mealy-mouthed excuse for diabolical human beings? Did John the evangelist caution the faithful against too much severity with the Caesars? Why did was Saint Paul moved to anger: ''God will strike YOU, white-washed wall,'' --? ? ?

Our Lord couldn't help objecting against the fool who bashed Him in the face before the high priest Caiaphas: ''If I have not answered wrongly, why dost thou strike me?''

We are swiftly becoming an effeminate, dozing lot of pansies and God calls us to be men. Certainly we must be forgiving and understanding. We must love our enemies, by way of sorrow for their offenses. We feel for them, they're damned.

But we don't take them for them our equals or our brethren on the spiritual scale. No more than Herod is our equal in the eyes of Jesus, who wouldn't even speak ONE WORD to Him when that monster was fawning on Him. (Luke 23.)

Men who kill and persecute God's faithful are despicable. We can pray for the miracle of their conversion, but they aren't our friends, Steve.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

Hi Suzanne those poor, poor, people. Im sure all decent people join you in sympathy and prayer or thoughts- truly dreadful, almost incomprehensible in scale.

Hi Steve seasons greetings, I thought the US response was admirable and good, certainly youd have to be fairly critical to knock how quickly you swung into action although I havent a clue how that will affect your future aid budget.

Far more of a concern to me the aid from Western nations actually getting through to those who need - corruption and incompetence is par for the course for those resposible for the domestic response in the respective nations- Indonesia esp.

Peace!

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 30, 2004.

Gene calm down . 100,000 people , including many Christians (if that makes you more concerned) have died. For goodness sake, whats wrong with you?

As is always the case in all natural disasters the very young and very old suffered the worst. AS STeve put it "It is extremely unlikely that any of the victims of the tsunami has ever murdered Christians"

Get a grip man.

Peace

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 30, 2004.

Dear Kiwi:
I hope you don't object, but we were off on a tangent. Did it ever happen to you?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

I was recently in Australia. I loved it.

Of course I'm saddened and unhappy over this latest horror. But simpering without reflection doesn't make you a better Christian. Why did I have to recall a man who contacted this forum, wailing over the distress of his people? Christians being cut to pieces?

Oh, I don't know. Because I'm human and because I'm afraid of fanatical Muslims. And all the while my Catholic friends are comfortable and dilettantish about our future. It's so fashionable to yield without a second thought.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

What do fanatical muslims have to do with thse 100,000+ people who died and those who are suffering?? There are christians, hindus, muslims, buddhists, and many people who don't believe in God among the victims. Some of them are good, and some of them are bad, but what do fanatical muslims have to do with them? What's the connection?

The catholic friends are comfortable about their future because they believe what God has told us - that he will be with us forever, even through our suffering. They are all human, and it's not fashionable but it's because they believe, and obey his words to love everyone. You could read about St. Francis who went straight to Saladin's nephew during the crusades, and by his faith and his love alone won his admiration and almost converted him, and left with great joy.

Still, what has all that to do with the victims and the situation there? So many dead, so many have lost everything and so many children are orphans now. They include people from several religions, but it's just sad and wrong to bring up "fanatical muslims" into this. I believe that every catholic, even if they won't or can't donate (not everyone would be able to), would surely pray for those people who died and who are suffering, instead of thinking about how many mulims died there and how many among them were fanatical..

-- Abraham T (Lijothengil@yahoo.com), December 30, 2004.

If my last two posts haven't explained it for me, Abraham, I stand corrected. Thank you.

You can be sure I'm sympathetic toward all surviving victims, and I mourn every innocent victim dead in the disaster. The dead who can't be called innocent are no longer threats, so we wish them well. You're quite right; I should not worry about fanatics. And, since there's nothing we can do about earthquakes, let's help the living with our prayers.

Let us thank God for the children who were spared. If it's a Muslim child or a Christian child; they each need our contributions. You are absolutely right.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

Fanatical Muslims caused the Tsunami in order to kill 100,000 people? That WOULD be getting a bit off topic.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 30, 2004.

OK;
If I say God allowed, permitted an earthquake and tsunamis-- to destroy many barbarous enemies of Christianity--

It would truly be presumptuous of me. I have no cause to say that. But it would be somewhat ''on'' topic. The best sense I can make of it is: So many have been killed; I cry for all the innocent dead. May they find mercy with God.

I pray for the living, and don't wish death on anybody, even fanatical Muslims. I leave them also to God's divine mercy and His Justice. And while we're thinking about it, we should hope God will not visit any punishment on our land. Because He certainly might.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

Eugene, I fail to see how I have “made a mealy-mouthed excuse for diabolical human beings” or been an “effeminate pansy” just because I said even murderers should be helped when they are bereaved/injured/homeless/sick. I never claimed they are “our friends”. That’s just the point. We have to help even our enemies. If we help only those who are our friends, we are no better than the pagans who do the same.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 30, 2004.

Now you're out of context. First: I meant m-m by comparison with our own Catholic saints who were fighters. I posed it as a question: WHY MAKE EXCUSES? They (barbarians) convict themselves. If you take it personally, I apologise.

my other remark was merely a general accusation--

The Church is a militant Body. But it's fast becoming effeminate through our political correctness. We can't stand up anymore; not without being chastized for not appeasing evil men. Even for reprehending a false religion. You & I have been over all that before. It turned nasty, I'm tired of it.

Yes, we sin against charity if we don't help all the poor and destitute. I don't have to be indoctrinated, I believe this already. I guess I just squawk too much. I wish you a Happy New Year; you're NOT a pansy. --Ciao.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

I think the best way of convincing them that ours is the one true religion founded by God, is to show them that we love them as God loves them. By being more generous to them than even those of their own religion.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 30, 2004.

Oh give me a break. That doesn't even work in a schoolyard. Pray for them. If God doesn't change some of their hearts, you and I won't; we'll just add to the body count.

Good will is imperative. It helps US on the way to salvation. Our Lord was forced to ask, ''If in the case of the green wood they do these things; what's to happen in the case of the dry?''

Our fate leads us to confrontation with evil. There's no other end. We must see tribulations before the return of Jesus Christ. Don't expect muslims to fall in line behind us, Steve. They belong to the evil one.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

Eugene I don’t expect very many muslims (or other faiths) let alone fundamentalist murderers, to convert to Christianity just because Christians show them generosity. What is certain is that NONE will convert if Christians show that their fine-sounding phrases like “love your enemy” are mere hypocrisy which they fail to live out in real life.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 30, 2004.

More to the point as far as we are concerned, Our Lord will condemn those who claim to serve Him but failed to help (and see Him in) the homeless, sick, injured and bereaved. I’m sure He won’t add “but it’s all right if the people you didn’t help were muslims”.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 30, 2004.

You're going to extremes just to discredit everything I'm saying. I'm not denying our Christian obligations. Not only to help and comfort, but to love unselfishly. There just obviously is another side to the coin where it concerns a dangerous cultural enemy. Your desire to ''convert'' shouldn't blind you to these other things I'm saying.

To me, Is- lam is a time-bomb. If you see it otherwise, simply don't engage me in discussions about it. I'm every bit as charitable toward my neighbor as you. I don't count anyone as hateful, per se.

However, I see the plain facts. Millions of souls living in virtual darkness. Evil men at their head, with God our only hope. God; not other men; because the world will never overcome darkness. I'm not so dumb as to think that.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 31, 2004.

Eugene,

"..India's Christian community was not spared. "It has been a terrible tragedy since it all happened on Sunday when the church service was on, and it occurred during the Christmas period," Donald H.R. De Souza, spokesman for the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India, said earlier this week. "In the Kottar area of Tamil Nadu, about 300 Christians who were attending a religious service died."

One of the country's holiest Christian sites, the Basilica of Our Lady of Good Health in Velankanni, was hit severely. The shrine, typically busiest during the Christmas season, has reported at least 700 deaths, and that number is expected to rise dramatically.

John Dayal, secretary general of the All India Christian Council, calls the tsunami "a greater tragedy than many others faced in the past" by the country's Christians. It's especially hard on the Christian community, he said, since "most of the boatmen and fishermen in the coastal areas are Christians."

The areas most affected by the tsunami are in the states of Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Andhra Pradesh, Pondicherry, and the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. Anthropologists fear that some of the 72 indigenous tribes living in isolation on the 319 islands in the Andaman and Nicobar chains might have been wiped out by the tsunami.

Besides the terrible loss of human life, fear of massive disease haunts medical authorities. The United Nations has warned of an epidemic as corpses rot and drinking water, food, and shelter become scarce. In India, dead bodies are being disposed of in mass burials and cremations.

The country has also had to face panic in the wake of the devastation: A tsunami alert was issued yesterday, and the government urged people to leave coastal areas. Hours later, the alert was retracted, with Science Minister Kapil Sibal explaining that it had been based on faulty information.

The unprecedented tragedy has shattered the local economies of small towns and villages in the coastal areas. The basic infrastructure and amenities have been wiped away by the waves, and the local communities have been impoverished.

"Providing livelihood to the fisher folks would be our main focus to begin with," says Dayal. "Fishermen need nets and boats. We will be focusing on that along with giving them trauma counseling and providing long-term rehabilitation."

Indian churches and Christian organizations are "deeply involved" in aid and relief efforts, says Richard Howell, secretary general of the Evangelical Fellowship of India. "We have been on site from day one providing relief. We have already sent appeals for funds within India and abroad. We see it as a tragedy of human family. We will serve every needy person irrespective of his caste or religion."

James Christian, Bishop's Chaplain for the Church of South India's Diocese of Madras, told Christianity Today that his denomination is providing shelter and clothes and collecting money for relief, but the situation remains "terrible and sad."

"We are doing our best but our resources are insufficient," he said. "A lot more needs to be done. It is a time of great tragedy and we need prayers."

India's churches are organizing a nation-wide day of prayer January 2, but their work with the tsunami victims will likely continue for years.

"It won't be a one-time relief," says Howell. "We are going to be with them, walking with them until they are rehabilitated.

-- ..;; (.@....), December 31, 2004.

God have mercy on us all; yes.
This thread would not be worth the reading without us, myself above all, realising how overwhelmed the world was--

In just a single day. In fact, what good is this discussion? It can't bring back the dead or dry any tears for the unfortunate survivors in those places. I know they need our help.

This life is so precious. Yet God said to Satan, ''Behold; all that he (Job) has is in your power; only do not lay a hand upon his person.'' So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord. (Job 1:12) A lesson for this New Year's day.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 01, 2005.

Dear Gene it wasn’t the tangent in itself that troubled me obv. I find tangents, much like tangerines, terribly terrific. Tangent time; glad to hear Australia treated you well, don’t suppose you caught up with Peter K or dined at Doyle’s by chance? Hows the book progressing?

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), January 02, 2005.

Sorry thats probably a little insenstive and thoughtless of me, considering the nature of this thread and the enormity of what has happened in Asia. Ill mail you personally Gene.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), January 02, 2005.

Dined there; love it. Circular Quay is awesome. We attended a fine concert @ the Opera House; with fireworks extravaganza after. Couldn't make last min. contact with Peter, but we hope to return someday soon. My wife dined on the ugly little Ballymain Bugs. I had fish-chips. What a great place. I loved Adelaide as well.

Oh, the book. Very challenging and fun. Pray for God's grace to give me the impetus. Ciao.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2005.

Kiwi, yes perhaps I was too quick to judge the US's reaction as the aid pledged by the US has now been greatly increased.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 02, 2005.