In the Bible it doesnt directly say their is purgatory, but Catholics believe its in their indirectly (Rev 21:27) (Rom.5:3-5)(Thessalonians 2:13) but im confused. Doesnt that mean their is a possibility that NO ONE is in hell except for the devil himself, because if everyone has the chance to be cleansed of their sins after their death then a person who never believed in the Lord for their entire lifetime could enter into Heaven. That person will be no dummy and choose Hell over Heaven when now its brought up right in front of their face..theyll ask for forgiveness for never believing in Christ and therefore saved. So I brought this up to my High School "Catholic Morality" teacher and commented "So if purgatory exists, theres a good chance nobody's in hell right?" And very sure of herself and with a smile said "yeah".....Now my teacher has taught religion for over 30 years and is a very devout Catholic. so she knows some things. thanks guys.......David

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004

Answers

Only people deserving of Heaven will enter purgatory. People deserving of Hell don't get a "second chance" in purgatory. Purgatory is a state of cleansing before we are brought face to face with God.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.

People are not "cleansed of their sins" in Purgatory. A person who dies in a state of unrepented serious sin is not saved, and therefore cannot enter Purgatory, since Purgatory is only for those who have already been judged as saved, but who require additional purification from the lingering effects of sin before they can come before the throne of God.

Also, Catholics do not believe in Purgatory because it is alluded to in Scripture. It is alluded to in Scripture because it is what the Christian Church believed from the beginning, having received it from the lips of Christ Himself. The Scriptures reflect the God-given teaching of the Church which preceded them. Not the other way around.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 31, 2004.

David are you by chance testing the waters here?

"because if everyone has the chance to be cleansed of their sins after their death then a person who never believed in the Lord for their entire lifetime could enter into Heaven. That person will be no dummy and choose Hell over Heaven when now its brought up right in front of their face..theyll ask for forgiveness for never believing in Christ and therefore saved."

LK 13:22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

He said to them, 24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, `Sir, open the door for us.'

"But he will answer, `I don't know you or where you come from.'

LK 13:26 "Then you will say, `We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

LK 13:27 "But he will reply, `I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

LK 13:28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."

Maybe spend a little more time in the Gospels where many of the answers are.--However if you ever want some really good jaw dropping questions to give your morality teacher and you don't mind a detention let me know.

-- Michael G. (NoEmail@Nowhere.no), December 31, 2004.

David,

See 2 Macc. 12:43–45. Protestants removed this book from their canon. In your journey, you're bound to come across the old "Catholics added books to the bible" argument. See this reply to the most common objections.

Also see this and this article from Catholic Answers. Also see this web page by Dave Armstrong's Biblical Evidence of Catholicism.

Don't forget the Cathechism!

Keep asking questions and searching for answers. There are many objections to the Catholic faith, but also many answers to those objections. Above all, pray for guidance and wisdom. Pray unceasingly on your journey. Anyone can be seduced away from the faith.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 31, 2004.

Michael it would greatly be apprecited, it could probably raise my grade :) thanks again

-- David A. Martinez (raydr2411@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.

One more link for your reference list.

James Akin on explaining Purgatory

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 31, 2004.

Sorry Paul, I knew what I meant in my head but it didn't come out right.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.

Although I believe we can expect Hell to be quite full, I do not think it is against Catholic faith to pray for, and thus to hope for, an (almost) empty Hell.

Consider this First Things article, The Population of Hell by Cardinal Avery Dulles.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), December 31, 2004.

Sorry for the double-post, but I have one additional note--

Purgatory is a place of punishment; in all likelihood, intense punishment. Undoubtedly there will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth" in Purgatory as well as Hell; the only difference is that those in Purgatory are assured eternal salvation, while those in Hell are assured quite the opposite.

Pray for the souls in Purgatory! Pray for mercy for their sins, and for our own!

But it is important to note: because Purgatory is a place of punishment, everything Christ said about those who do not enter Heaven may well be as true of the Church Suffering as for the damned.

Highly unlikely, but not 100% outside of the realm of possibility that Hell is empty save Satan and his devils.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), December 31, 2004.

Dear anon:

You say, ''Highly unlikely, but not 100% outside of the realm of possibility that Hell is empty save Satan and his devils.''

That trivializes all the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Certainly many souls will be saved of whom not much was expected, according to their works. But the words of Jesus left no doubt there would be MANY evil-doers condemned to hell. He went so far as to warn his followers not to sin at all, even if it cost them an eye or a limb; knowing that they WOULD be damned (unless they were converted and did penance.)

To speculate any other sense of hell except that one described solemnly in His words, trivializes Our Lord's own passion and death; which He suffered for our sins. If it were not for HELL, Jesus wouldn't have given His life for the world.

Knowing this, and with every evidence of the great diversity of evil works by so many since ancient days-- an empty hell dismisses God's Justice. There's no plausible reason for suggesting possibilities like that one, IMHO.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 31, 2004.

"because Purgatory is a place of punishment, everything Christ said about those who do not enter Heaven may well be as true of the Church Suffering as for the damned."

A: There is only one similarity between hell and purgatory - both involve suffering. But Purgatory is a place of love, hope, and joy. It is the antechamber to heaven. Those who suffer in Purgatory do so in the absolute knowledge that they are saved and will spend eternity with God, an assurance no person on earth possesses, even though some think they do. Those in hell suffer too, but forever, in an atmosphere of absolute hatred, despair and sadness, separated forever from the One Who is the source of everything good, everything positive, everything holy. Heaven and Hell both involve suffering, but they are as different as day and night.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 31, 2004.

I think you meant "Purgatory and Hell both involve suffering."

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 01, 2005.

Eugene, please do not misunderstand me. I do not intend to trivialize Church teaching. But you should take a look at that Avery Dulles article I cited. In it, he says,

"It is unfair and incorrect to accuse either Balthasar or Neuhaus of teaching that no one goes to hell. They grant that it is probable that some or even many do go there, but they assert, on the ground that God is capable of bringing any sinner to repentance, that we have a right to hope and pray that all will be saved. The fact that something is highly improbable need not prevent us from hoping and praying that it will happen. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved’ (1 Timothy 2:4)” (CCC §1821). At another point the Catechism declares: “The Church prays that no one should be lost” (CCC §1058)."

The Church wouldn't pray for something that was absolutely impossible. But that does not give anyone the right to presume, or even hold out much hope (against Christ's words) that Hell would be empty. It is, in effect, a hope-against-hope.

But I'm only describing what could be an unusual and untenable opinion within Catholic orthodoxy.

I would rather simply identify with the words of the Holy Father, as quoted by Dulles:

" Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying “yes” or “no,” which marks the (human) creature’s freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God’s love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a “yes” to God.

Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell—and even less the improper use of biblical images—must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6)"

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 01, 2005.

Anon,

You are starting to get to far out there with that one. Indeed, Gene is correct without a doubt!

Being nice is good, and makes "reasoning" easier, but that isn't Catholic teaching. Being a Catholic isn't easy. Don't expect life to be fair.

Pray for God to bless you with stronger faith!

-- - (David@excite.com), January 01, 2005.

David Martinez, Anon gives you Cardinal Avery Dulles. Alright, fine. But wouldn't it make more sense to listen to a Saint on the subject?

Sure. Meet St. Leonard of Port Maurice.

Remember: the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. Read it. Get scared. React accordingly.

In all seriousness, I'm having a little fun playing up on this a bit. But it is in all seriousness as well. It really is true, man's predicament of hanging between Heaven and Hell, that is, and it is that serious, as serious as St. Leonard describes it.

No, we don't want to walk around all day long in a servile and unhealthy dread fear of God. No, He probably isn't as interested our fear as He is our love for Him. Yes, it is best to be motivated by love. BUT: it is not that fear is to be ignored in favor of love, but, that an acknowledgment of BOTH is healthy to the understanding.

In fact, a knowledge of the dreadful negative possibilities show the love of God to be even greater than we may have imagined it, in so far as His willingness to save us from certain spiritual death is concerned.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), January 01, 2005.

I pulled the first linkable copy of this I came across, and only noticed later that the first paragraph was someone else's writing. No endorsement intended for the first paragraph.

St. Leonard's work starts with the words "Thanks be to God, the number of the Redeemer's disciples..."

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), January 01, 2005.

David, I wish you would read my post more carefully, especially before publicly announcing your intercessions implying my deficient faith (a rhetorical technique I find rather distasteful). There's not a one of us who can escape the need for greater faith, but my posts exploring the way one theologian speculates on parts of Catholic teaching should not be represented as pandering to huggy lovey dovey softy carebear theology, which I hate.

Note that the last two paragraphs of my last post are Catholic teaching--they are the words of the Holy Father.

The only thing that Dulles says is that it would seem odd for the Church to pray for an impossibility, and she prays for the salvation of all men. Now, that's just the statement of a few theologians.

That's not Church teaching, but like speculation about limbo, neither does it contradict the Church. It does not say that there's nobody in Hell; it does not say that Hell could likely be empty, or even that there's the remotest chance of it. It does not say anything against the truth that those who die in persistent, unconfesed mortal sin will go to Hell.

If any of you would get off the inquisitor's bench for a second and read the article (as Dulles is not known for wild or fanciful theology), you could judge it for its own merits with a cool mind instead of protesting against me.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 01, 2005.

And a side note,

In spite of the fact that Emerald is banned, what he said is correct, namely: "In fact, a knowledge of the dreadful negative possibilities show the love of God to be even greater than we may have imagined it, in so far as His willingness to save us from certain spiritual death is concerned."

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 01, 2005.

David, for Church teaching and Scriptural allusions to purgatory, please see the thread, Purgatory - A Look at Scripture and Catholic Teaching.

God bless,

-- ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), January 01, 2005.

To anon as well as David Martinez:

I tried to make only one point. Nothing to get yourselves defensive about, returning to post a rationale.

Jesus Christ spoke of the punishments of hell. No other person is even remotely qualified to second guess, after Christ teaches something. If a hypothetical game or quiz is what we want, sure. Read Dulles, read what others say about it. I will trivialize these writers and brilliant teachers rather than Jesus Christ, who was not speaking hypothetically. On the last day He will judge the living and the dead. According to His solemn words, He will NOT be taking everybody to heaven. We can rest assured from the best source, a whole FLOCK of souls will be sent to hell.

His parable of the five wise virgins who guarded their oil posited five others, all foolish, who were caught unprepared for his coming. My Golly; that's a fifty-fifty split. I can't imagine THAT many going to hell. If we have to second guess Jesus, let it be more like this: Hopefully only three out of the five foolish virgins will have to go.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 01, 2005.

People are not "cleansed of their sins" in Purgatory

But if one dies in veniel sins before repenting, Purgatory would cleanse those correct? So I think it would be safe to say that not only does Purgatory cleanse the effects left due to sin, but It also cleanses sin(venial).

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), January 01, 2005.

Correct DJ. There are many ways in which venial sin can be absolved other than sacramental confession, including making an act of contrition, or receiving the Eucharist.

-- (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 02, 2005.

No harm mean't J.Z.! Happy belated birthday young man. :-)

"..The Horrible But Very Real Vision of Hell Let us listen to the account that Sister Lucy traces for us in her Memoirs: << As She spoke these last words, She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw as it were a sea of fire. Plunged in this fire we saw the demons and the souls [the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright. (It must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition, had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.>> There it is. It is frightening! Before everything, the Blessed Virgin Mary wants us to consider the most serious characteristic of our short life which must result in our going to either Heaven or Hell for all eternity. It is in the brief years of our mortal life that our definitive fate is irrevocably played out. Little Jacinta was very much impressed by certain things revealed in the Secret. Jacinta could not forget the terrible sight of Hell. To her all the penances and mortifications seemed insufficient to achieve saving some souls from Hell... Lucy notes again, (Some people, even pious ones, do not like to speak about Hell to their children so as not to frighten them. But God did not hesitate to show it to three children, one of whom was barely seven years old, and He was well aware, I dare say, that she would be horrified by it, to the point of being consumed with fright.).."

-- - (David@excite.com), January 02, 2005.

"No harm mean't J.Z.!"

Amazing. So many people remember that, even after two pseudonym-changes. ^_^ God bless!

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 02, 2005.

The sermon of St. Leonard of Port Maurice does spur one on to serious repentance!

Yet I am troubled by the extreme numbers in the (hearsay, unreferenced, unapproved) apparitions and visions he refers to--five saved out of 30,000 indeed! That would make our Lord's sacrifice a colossal failure, "God so loved the world" an empty and mocking promise. Such visions tempt good Christians to hopelessness, and seem inspired by deceiving demons rather than by God. If, as St. Leonard himself says, the number of the saved *and* the number of the lost are *both* "greater than can be numbered," then there are plenty of people in *both* categories!

Rather than make rash statements about less than 1% of human beings being saved, I would rather trust in the mercy of Christ that was shown to the thief on the cross, who was promised paradise that day.

And I will, by God's grace, truly repent so as to be in the number of the saved!

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 02, 2005.

Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

-- - (David@excite.com), January 08, 2005.

"After this I looked, and there was a *great multitude* that *no one could count* from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white with palm branches in their hands" (Revelation 7:9). If you have any doubt as to the identity of this great multitude of the saved, read down to 7:13-17 to find out.

Also, look at Luke 13:22-30 for the context of the quote in Matthew you refer to. The "many" who are not able to enter the kingdom are the fellow-countrymen of Jesus in His own day who refused to listen to His teaching; nevertheless others "from the east and west and north and south" shall pour into the kingdom and eat at the table with the patriarchs.

We always must be careful with our relationship with God, lest we turn our backs on Him and offend His love by mortal sin. But on the other hand, I am willing to believe that John the Apostle was right on when he said those in heaven were so numerous they couldn't be counted! Remember what God promised Abraham in Genesis 15--that his descendants would be more numerous than the stars? We are those descendants, my friend--the seed of Abraham according to the promise given in Jesus Christ.

I don't think heaven will be empty!

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 11, 2005.