by Todd Strandberg

"After reading countless messages and articles that attack the pre-tribulation rapture, I've noticed that there was a certain number of arguments that are repeatedly sent to me.

Instead of trying to answer every individual e-mail I receive, I thought it would be a good idea to create a web page that addresses the most commonly mentioned points of debate. This way I can diminish the need to repeating myself so many times, which will also help me maintain my sanity."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005

Answers

The Margaret MacDonald Origin

One of the most widely circulated attack against the pre-tribulation rapture is the notion a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it.

Disproving this assertion was rather easy. Pre-tribulation scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predated Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian who said in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

One post-tribulation author offered a reward to anyone that could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone pointed him to a scholar that wrote about the pre- tribulation rapture several years before MacDonald.

As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald quotes, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth.

Apparently, do to their lack of research, pre-tribulation opponents continue to pump out a flood of information that cites MacDonald was the originator of the pre-tribulation rapture.

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

The Last Trumpet Argument

Because Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Matthew 24:31 -- which all occur during the tribulation.

When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think it's foolish to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case.

In the movies Ben-Hur and The Wizard of Oz, I recall hearing the sounding of trumpets. Are both these trumpets somehow prophetically related?

If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant?

Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurant, they may have had two different eating establishment in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.

Pre-wrath proponent say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Revelation 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 15:51. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?

Post-tribulationists use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-tribulation rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:

1. Joel clearly says the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."

2. The rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Corinthians there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.

3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.

When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump - which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection.

For many Christians the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

The First Resurrection

The argument is made, "There can not be a pre-tribulation rapture because to have one would require a second resurrection at Christ's return to earth." This conclusion is drawn from Revelation 20:5-6:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:5-6)

One pre-tribulation writer explaining this passage said, "The first did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind." The first resurrection was for God's people the second will be for the unsaved.

A quick way to shoot down the notion the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists.

At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven. (Revelation 11:3-12)

Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the later half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

Because Paul in 2 Thessalonians said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre- tribulation rapture.

Paul told the Thessalonians that the Antichrist must first be revealed, because he was attempting to clear up their misunderstand that the Day of the Lord was about to take place.

Post-tribulation and pre-wrath folks consistently fail to realize that pre-tribulation doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only look for one event - the second coming - they're unable to recognize the pre-tribulation rapture references.

Here in 2 Thessalonians 2, "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" is obviously the pre-tribulation rapture, and the "day of Christ" is a referral to the second coming.

2 Thessalonians 2:6, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

Persecute Me Please

You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns.

Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These Tribulation saints wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and his disciples suffered persecution we should expect no better."

It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven.

I hate to be the bearer good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

By having the rapture before the tribulation, all those that finds themselves facing the wrath of God will be without an excuse.

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

No Secret Rapture

"There is no secret rapture" is the beginning declaration of a large percentage of messages that attack the rapture. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting Scriptural evidence. A few people will cite Revelation 1:17 "every eye shall see him" as proof that the rapture will not be a secret event. Of course, I would immediately note that "every eye shall see him" is the second coming.

I have a hard time understanding how these folks could think pre- tribulationists preach a secret rapture. We seem to be doing are very best to popularize the rapture before it takes place. I doubt afterwards, with all the car wrecks, plane crashes, and missing persons reports, the rapture will remain a secret occurrence.

The only people I know that are attempting to keep the pre- tribulation rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post- tribulation folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope."

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

No Imminency

Because an imminent or any moment rapture is one of the major teachings of pre-tribulationists, opponents of this view attempt to dismantle the imminency of the rapture.

Although Jesus said, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." (Matthew 24:42), advocates for knowing the "day" will claim this only applies to the unsaved.

I hear arguments like, "Surely a loving father would tell his own children when he's coming for them."

To try to get around "no man know the hour," a popular Scripture often cited is: "But yea brethren, are not in darkness that that day should over take you as a thief." (1 Thessalonians 5:4)

Despite all their monkeying with Scripture, pre-tribulation rapture detractors just cannot escape Jesus' restriction against knowing the time of the rapture.

In fact, Our Lord was so restrictive about the rapture he said its occurrence would come as a total surprise. "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." (Matthew 24:44)

Now when it comes to the second coming, the Bible couldn't be more open. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1,260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God.

Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically conclusion that their must be two different events occurring - the rapture and the second coming.

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

The Restrainer

In 2 Thessalonians the apostle Paul speaks of a "he" that will restrain the advent of the Antichrist. The restrainer's removal is required before that the Antichrist can be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

A debate has erupted over the identity of the Restrainer because if this "he" is the Holy Ghost, the only real explanation for his removal would be the rapture of the Church, which is indwelled by him.

The strongest argument offered against the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer is the belief that if God's Spirit was ever removed from the earth, no one could then be saved.

The removal of the Holy Ghost does not have to be an all or nothing proposition. I believe his being "taken out of the way" will only be a degree of removal.

Before the Church age, people were able to find salvation, which obviously meant the Holy Spirit was at work on earth. When the outpouring of the Holy Ghost occurred at Pentecost, we didn't have a second Holy Spirit come to earth. His removal at the rapture will only be a reversal of or ending of the Pentecostal outpouring.

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

Replacementism

Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them.

Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.

Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews.

When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-tribulation rapture provides a good a explanation for this transfer of attention.

To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation.

"The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance." (Psalm 94:14)

"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36)

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

Nowhere in the Bible can you find the word "rapture"

I've always been amazed that some folks would try use the fact the word rapture does not appear in the Bible as an argument. The issue should be whether or not the concept appears in the Bible.

There is a whole host of words that don't appear in the Bible including the word "Bible". Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that all English words are not in the Bible.

For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapare", which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. You can call it the pre-tribulation rapture, the pre-tribulation rapare, or the pre- tribulation caught up--it's all the same thing.

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will be raptured before the tribulation

Pre-tribulation opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationists has the same right to say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation."

by Todd Strandberg

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 03, 2005.

David,

Mr. Strandberg is still confusing God's wrath with tribulations, or times of trial. The point isn't that Christians want to be persecuted, but that according to Christ, we should expect to be persecuted as He was persecuted for the Truth. Mr. Strandberg still hasn't made a case for a rapture that contradicts Christ's own words in Matthew 24:

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand– then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

“Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 05, 2005.

But Andy,

Jacob's Trouble--or the Tribulation period is God's judgement against unbelieving Israel.

Why would the church be judged in this?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.

"Mr. Strandberg is still confusing God's wrath with tribulations, or times of trial. The point isn't that Christians want to be persecuted, but that according to Christ, we should expect to be persecuted as He was persecuted for the Truth." - Andy

Andy, I think you're missing something. Mr. Strandberg is speaking of the Tribulation that will occur after the Restrainer is removed. Christian's will not go through this, because they have been raptured. The purpose of the Church being raptured is so the Anti- christ can be revealed--something he cannot do as long as Christians are on this earth.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 05, 2005.

So what is Jesus talking about in Matthew 24?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 05, 2005.

I think Jesus is speaking about His second coming. This is not the rapture though. This coming is described by unmistakable signs in the sky which are visible to and recognized by all mankind. Yet the rapture takes place when no one is expecting anything. Things are as they always are. Then suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye.....gone!

In Isaiah 65:9-25--we see the same picture Jesus paints in Matthew 24. Here we can see that the *elect* are clearly not the church:

I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.

Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down, For My people who have sought Me.

"But you are those who forsake the LORD, Who forget My holy mountain, Who prepare a table for Gad, And who furnish a drink offering for Meni.

Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear, But did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, My servants shall eat, But you shall be hungry; Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty; Behold, My servants shall rejoice, But you shall be ashamed;

Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit.

You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord GOD will slay you, And call His servants by another name;

So that he who blesses himself in the earth Shall bless himself in the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth Shall swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My eyes.

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.

I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.

"No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.

"It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD. ****************

That is a description of the 1,000 years of peace promised to the Jews.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.

Faith,

Jesus addresses his disciples in Matthew 24 and His words are clearly meant for His followers.

"As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

“Watch out that no one deceives you"

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."

etc.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 05, 2005.

Jesus was telling the disciples about the endtimes--which have to do with God's judgement on Israel. He also was warning the disciples that they would be percecuted for His sake.

Remember that Jesus was a Jew and He was addressing the jews at that point in time. The church was a mystery and did not exist yet.

The thing I like about Isaiah 65 is that it shows both the Jews *the elect* and the church *the servants* dwelling together in this time of great peace--which lines up nicely with the picture of the 1,000 year reign where Jesus, with His saints will Lord over this time which was promised to the Jews after their judgement during the time of Jacob's trouble.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.

Sorry Faith, I still don't see it. I first read Matthew 24 without knowing anything about a "rapture" and I see Christ talking to the Church. This is also borne out in the world. Christians have been persecuted throughout time and in many nations. Not everytime and everywhere, but enough to see that we must all be ready to die for Christ.

Christians in North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China, etc. are surely undergoing periods of "tribulation."

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 05, 2005.

TI think that some things in the gospels accounts of jesus speaking to the jews, can be extended for the church.

For one thing, we are descendants of the faithful...the apostles--and are therefore considered disciples also. Our purpose is the same as theirs was--to spread the good news about Jesus Christ. We are given the authority to teach what the apostles taught. Jesus taught the apostles.

But Jesus also dealt with the unbelieving Jews. Much of what He told them, had to do with them.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.

"Jesus was telling the disciples about the endtimes--which have to do with God's judgement on Israel. He also was warning the disciples that they would be percecuted for His sake. Remember that Jesus was a Jew and He was addressing the jews at that point in time. The church was a mystery and did not exist yet. "- Faith

Then can we apply the same standards to His words in the upper room. When Jesus spoke (John 14) "in my Father's house are many rooms..." he was talking to his disciples, the Jews, and not for the church.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2005.

There are ways to discern who Jesus was speaking about. Was it the disciples and the future church or was He addressing things about unbelieving Jews?

The elect that the angels gather from the four winds to Armageddon in Matt 24, are not the church, they are Jews. This is not a picture of the rapture--as some try to claim.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.

Besides your doctrine, what leads you to believe Jesus was addressing the Jews and not the Church in Matthew 24, Faith? You realize that the Church was Jewish for about 10 years.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2005.

Luke, Jesus was addressing His disciples about the endtimes.

The Jews do have an appointment with God.., where they will be judged.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.

Faith wrote, "The elect that the angels gather from the four winds to Armageddon in Matt 24"

Where does it state in the Bible that the "elect" will be gathered to Armageddon??? You are doing an awful lot of assuming in this chapter...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 06, 2005.

What I meant to say, Kevin., is that the *elect* in that passage of Matthews' are being gathered back to to their own land for the 1,000 year reign of Christ. I don't know why I said Armageddon, I was thinking ahead of myself. I know that Armageddon occurs at the end of that time.., and these Jews will be the target of the enemy.

Rev.20:7-10

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth–Gog and Magog–to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 1And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.

Faith,

The Jews are no longer God's chosen people, the church has taken their place... so how can you say "and these Jews will be the target of the enemy."???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 06, 2005.

Faith, you still have not shown any reason why we should believe the "elect" means the Jews only.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2005.

How did that 'elect' become 'elect'?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 06, 2005.

"How did that 'elect' become 'elect'?"

By their obedience to the gospel of Christ...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 07, 2005.

So, they become elect out of their own will...interesting..

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

Wrong Kevin--

Many of His *elect* the Jews, never turned from their wicked ways or received Christ.

Yet these are still His elect.

He will gather them back to Israel in the end of time--(already begun)., and they will go through the prophesied Time of Jacob's Trouble. A Remnant will be saved.

The church has nothing to do with this.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.

Faith,

Where is your proof of what you said in your last post??? Scripture please...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

Just take notice in Revelation, Kevin. The last time we see the church is I think in chapter four. Then-not until Christ returns, do we find the church again--riding with Him and coming down from heaven.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

"Just take notice in Revelation, Kevin. The last time we see the church is I think in chapter four. Then-not until Christ returns, do we find the church again--riding with Him and coming down from heaven."

What does this statement that Jesus made in Matthew 10:23 mean??? "When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

It has been almost 2,000 years since Jesus made this statement... Do you think that the first century Christians did not go through all of the cities of Israel before Jesus judged the Jews??? (see Colossians 1:23).

The book of Revelation does not say that the church will return with Jesus...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

The Rider on the White Horse Rev 19:11-16

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

***********************

Zechariah 15:5-6

You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime-a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

Actually it is the angels that will be coming with Jesus on the day of Judgment for it is written in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, "7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed."

1 Thessalonians 4:16 states, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

"Zechariah 15:5-6"

Actually it is Zechariah 14:5-6 and this is a day of judgment that has already happened... Not the final day of judgment...

If you look at verse 8 which states, "And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,"

What is this "living waters" flowing from Jerusalem???

Here is your answer... John 7:38-39 states, "38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

The gift of the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

Being announced by the voice of an archangel hardly sounds like the scenario where Jesus returns with an army of saints who have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Angels do not get saved, Kevin.

You confuse the picture of the Rapture with the return of Christ to judge the unbelieving earth..

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

Zechariah 15 is clearly a picture of the end times, Kevin.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

"Being announced by the voice of an archangel hardly sounds like the scenario where Jesus returns with an army of saints who have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ."

The dead in Christ do not return with Jesus... The dead in Christ will rise to meet Jesus in the air... "Angels do not get saved, Kevin."

I never said they did...

"You confuse the picture of the Rapture with the return of Christ to judge the unbelieving earth.."

There is no such thing as a "rapture" and you have yet to prove this to be true...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

kevin, Im afraid Faith insists that all prophecy is abothe end times if not abouthte firts advent of our Lord.

If it has abeen fulfileld already, btu she needs it for the Rapoture, ti becomes a duel prophecy, or else the lain readng is wrong aND IT RELLAY EMAN THE RAPTURE. ( rEMEMBER, THE rAPTUE IS A "mYSTERY" HIDDEN IN SEVERAL OOKS, LIEK A CODE... CAUE THAT WAY IT CAN BE HIDDEN RATHER THAN gOD TELLIGN US LIEK TI IS.)

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 08, 2005.

Zarove,

I do believe that you are correct... Faith cannot prove there is such a thing as a "rapture" and she tries to use the "day of the Lord" to prove this doctrine... This attempt is unsuccessful because she tries to get many "days" out of one "day" of the Lord... It is amazing to me that she can claim that one day = one day in the book of Genesis except when it comes to the day of the Lord...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

Context really is everything though--Huh?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

Genesis describes the rotation of literal days. The Day of the Lord is described as a dark period without any rotation....in fact, it is described as having no daytime at all. No brightness at all. And then when evening comes--or *the end*--it will be light!

On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime-a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.

This is clearly describing the Tribulation period which we all know lasts seven years.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

"Context really is everything though--Huh?"

Yes, it sure is isn't it...

"Genesis describes the rotation of literal days."

This is a true statement...

"The Day of the Lord is described as a dark period without any rotation...."

The Day of the Lord is one literal day, and you have not given any evidence to prove anything otherwise...

"in fact, it is described as having no daytime at all. No brightness at all. And then when evening comes--or *the end*--it will be light!"

A day is a day... "On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime-a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light."

Still only one day...

"This is clearly describing the Tribulation period which we all know lasts seven years."

Once again, you do a good job of "assuming" something that you must prove and you are severly lacking in this deparment...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.

Faith, are you saying that the seven year tribulation will have neither light nor day? How will you know it lasts seven years?

There is not one passage the suggests the day of the Lord is not one literal day. You are turning it into an entire period to fit your doctrine.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 09, 2005.

Which again proves that the pre-trib doctrine does not use literal interpretation as it boasts. Other literal passages that pre- tribbers symbolize:

Rev.2-3

These are the letters John wrote to seven churches in Asia Minor. They are physical, literal churches that existed during John's lifetime. Pretribbers however interpret these literal churches to be Church Age's which were to come.

Rev 3:10

We know that the church of Philadelphia was a church in Asia which John became an overseer of after he escaped exile on Patmos. Pre- tribbers use this passage. Pretribbers maintain that this was a promise to the ENTIRE Church (of this Church Age) to rapture them before the tribulation.

Rev 4:1

This verse is John being taken into heaven to see the visions and events of the remainder of Revelation. Pretribbers insist that John is a symbol of the church and that this event is a description of the church being raptured before the tribulation.

Pretribbers also maintain that Enoch and the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 represent rapture types.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 09, 2005.

On a side note...

Concerning the two witnesses, Revelation 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

The beast does not come out of the Abyss until Revelation 13, which is further evidence that the book of Revelation does not unfold chronologically.

This is important because Pre-tribbers make rely heavily upon the "proof texts" as I posted above, as well as the "fact" that Revelation occurs in chronological order.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 09, 2005.

Well Kevin,

Does the Bible describe God's wrath as occuring in only one day in the endtimes? No!

The Day of the Lord is described as a good thing if you are found in Christ--but a bad thing if it is you facing this judgement.

Are you claiming that God's wrath and the rapture of the church all happen in one literal day?

As it is revealed to me--it is a seven year period of judgement and God's wrath. It will be a very dark period in history because the light of the world has been removed.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.

"Does the Bible describe God's wrath as occuring in only one day in the endtimes? No!" - Faith

Yes it does.

Satan is cast out of heaven (Rev. 12:9) and then we read:

Rev. 12:12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.

He then goes to wage war against the believers (Rev 12:17) upon the earth and to overcome them (Dan. 11:33; Rev 13:7).

This is when the antichrist will arise (Rev. 13:1). The dragon will give the antichrist his power (Rev. 13:2, 4), and the "false prophet" will cause men to worship the beast and his mark (Rev. 13:12, 14, 15).

Believers on the Earth shall recognize him as the man of lawlessness who sets up the abomination that causes desolation in the temple, proclaiming himself to be God(Dan. 9:27; Dan. 11:36; Mat. 24:15; 2 Thes. 2:3-4).

This is great tribulation (the ONLY period called one of tribulation) and will last 3 1/2 years (Dan. 9:27; Dan. 12:1; Dan. 12:11; Mat. 24:21).

The tribulation is the wrath of Satan not of God. The 7 Bowls of God's wrath are poured out during this time, however they are against the wicked with the mark of the Beast, not against the Saints.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 09, 2005.

Well Kevin, "Does the Bible describe God's wrath as occuring in only one day in the endtimes? No!"

If you say, No, then I challenge you to prove this not to be true... for God says in Acts 17:30-31, "30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

"The Day of the Lord is described as a good thing if you are found in Christ--but a bad thing if it is you facing this judgement."

This is true...

"Are you claiming that God's wrath and the rapture of the church all happen in one literal day?"

There is no such thing as a "rapture of the church"... All will be judged in one literal day...

"As it is revealed to me--it is a seven year period of judgement and God's wrath."

Yea, it may have been revealed to you, however you will not find what you believe taught in God's word.

"It will be a very dark period in history because the light of the world has been removed."

Where do you get that on the day of judgment that the "light of the world" will be removed??? God says in 1 Peter 1:24-25, "All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away, 25 But the word of the LORD endures forever."

If the "light of the world" is removed as you so state, then how is it possible that the "word of the LORD endures forever"???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 09, 2005.

I'm sorry Kevin, but you seem to be confusing the Day of the Lord with the final judgement of the dead that happens afterwards.

Just what is it that the church--the Bride of Christ--will be judged for on that day? Surely our salvation is secure in Him.

What will Jesus charge His bride with?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.

The wrath of God is something different altogether. It is refered to as "the day of the Lord."

Here is the proof that it is only one, 24-hour day:

Joel 3:31 The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

Sun and moon are darkened before the day of the Lord.

Matthew 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Sun and moon are darkend after the tribulation.

How can the darkening of the sun and moon occur before the day of the Lord but after the tribulation if the day of the Lord includes the entire seven year period?

The beast is worshiped during the tribulation (Rev 13).

Isaiah 2:11-18 The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled), for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty, and all the oaks of Bashan, for all the towering mountains and all the high hills, for every lofty tower and every fortified wall, for every trading ship and every stately vessel. The arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day, and the idols will totally disappear.

On the day of the Lord, the Lord alone will be exhalted. How can the Lord alone be worshiped on the day of the Lord if the day of the Lord includes the tribulation in which the beast is worshiped?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 09, 2005.

To me Luke--that just read like an insistence that it will be Lord Lord alone who will be exalted. I think the jist is meant *ultimately.* Because if you really read the verse you yourself provided, you can see the reason why it will be the Lord alone who is exalted: The arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day, and the idols will totally disappear.

In that day the arrogance of men will be brought low? The pride of men humbled? That's it? On the day that Jesus destroys the earth? Why doesn't the verse read: On that Day, all will be destroyed?

Clearly it will be a process...in that day.

Clearly that day involves far more than just this:

Matthew 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.

Because on that day, not all WILL be destroyed.

The destruction of the Earth is not how it has been taught. Isaiah 66:1-24 describes the coming of the Lord with fire and chariots, rebuking in flames of fire, and finally the creation of the new heavens and the new earth. But if you read this chapter, as well as the previous, Isaiah sees people on earth after it's "destruction."

Zechariah 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Yes, there are people who survive the day of the Lord, which is the second coming. The earth is NOT completely destroyed out of existance. Peter (2 Peter 3) was reminding the church of what the Prophets said would come, and the Lord himself. This means that his words must be interpreted in light of what the Prophets spoke of and what Jesus spoke of. Ironically, neither the prophets nor the Lord himself ever predicted the complete and total destruction of the earth.

The men are humbled because their idol has been abolished and the Lord himself is king over the entire earth. This occurs on the day of the Lord. It is still one day.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 09, 2005.

These people survive the Tribulation period--and then they live in the 1,000 year reign of Christ. That's when they are going up year after year to worship the King.

The final day of judgement hasn't even come at this point. It isn't quite the end--yet. Satan hasn't been destroyed. He is only locked up.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.

The day of the Lord doesn't occur when Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 09, 2005.

I never said it did. You are saying the Day of the Lord happens at the very end of time--when Christ sits in Judgement of the dead.

But that happens after the 1,000 year reign of Christ and after the destruction of Satan.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.

"I'm sorry Kevin, but you seem to be confusing the Day of the Lord with the final judgement of the dead that happens afterwards."

The "day of the Lord" is the final day of judgment... "Just what is it that the church--the Bride of Christ--will be judged for on that day? Surely our salvation is secure in Him."

Were the 7 churches in Asia being judged??? Yes or No??? If no, please provide specific Scriptural proof... If yes, then you are not correct and need to revise your beliefs to conform with what has been revealed in Scripture...

"What will Jesus charge His bride with?"

What will Jesus charge anyone with who does not obey Him???

Look at what happened the Jews when they did not obey...

It is no different with the church...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 09, 2005.

"You are saying the Day of the Lord happens at the very end of time--when Christ sits in Judgement of the dead." - Faith

No, I'm saying the day of the Lord is the day Jesus returns. It is only one day, it occurs after the tribulation.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 10, 2005.

But Luke, you said the final judegement takes place that day too-- yet we see that the 1,000 reign happens after tribulation, before judgement. Judgement takes place 1,000 years after Tribulation ends.

Those people who came out of Tribulation then live in peace and come worship the King all that period long. He doesn't destroy Satan and then judge the dead until after that.

And as I showed you, the church is never a part of any of this becaiuse she was raised in Christ according to Thess 4.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

When did I say the final judgment took place on the day of the Lord? I didn't.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 10, 2005.

I may have you confused with Kevin then.

But you say the Day of the Lord is but one day., and in that Day-- final judgement doesn't happen? So the Day of the Lord is after Tribulation , but before the 1000 year reign?

Oh I'm confused now :(

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.