Some do not seem to Understand...Rapturless Christains.greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
Some d not seem t Understand...Rapturless Christains.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005
Here is soemthign odd I have noticed.I grew up crch of christ, which is, of coruse, not one to classify itself as protestant. even today, while attending a 4 Square Gospel Church, I find the lable doesnt quiet sit well, espectially after hearign soem of the things taught at most Protestant chruches.
Churhc of chirst, of coruse, was restorationisst, an attemot at reovering first Century practices and beelifs, and reliance only on scriptrue. ( this beign the ONLY of the 5 sola's of Martain Luther actually used by Churhc of Christ memebrs. afrer all, hat other authority is thee, barring Apostolic succesion, which hruhc of hcirst neither claims nor recognises.)
One suhc ocorine, popular to-day, is the rpature theory.
I do not, myself, belive int eh rapture Theory, neither have I ever int he past held this position.
Inded, I was ignorant of its existance tll I was in late High school , and even then I was so vaugely itrodced to it I beelived it rfeed only tot he second Coming of Jesus to the earth. it was never properly explaiend to me then, and so I acepted it when others mentioend it, under a misunderstandign o what was meant.
Then, in my early 20's, withthe advent of the left Behind seris of LaHeye and Jenkins, and its subsewuent market success, I elarned about WHAT the rapture was.
In this theiry, all tue chrisaisn who are saved are elevated to Heaven By Jesus befor the Judgment of the world.
Thre distinct versions of this theory exist.
the firts is Post-Tribulatioin rapture, in which the antichrust tules for seven years before the sains are raptured. ( saints here refers only to true beleivers.)
The next is Mid-Tribulation rapture. In this veiw, 3 and 1/2 years pass under the rule of the anti-christ, and then the chruch ( Ckposed of allbeleivers and nondenominational) is raptured off.
The final, and most popular inthis dy and age, is Pre-triblation RRapture Tehory. strangel.y, this si also the toungest position. ( I went in chrinilogical Order. By the time amee simple Macfearson was dfidnign the 4 square gospel Cruch, the Post-tribulation rapture was the mmanent theoryand Mid-Tribulation rapture was just beginning Only within the last 50 eyars has Post-Tribulaitonal rapture even been considered my most, and yet ver the ast 20 or so years, ti has taken the preimenant position.)
essentially, before a period known as the Tribulation, in whihc the anti-chrust takes possesion of the owrld as its ruler, and devses a oenworld religion and is provclaimed God, while defilign the temple, and opprssing all who oppose him, the True christaisn beleivers wll be taken off the planet by jesus who has come again to save his churhc, leavign the rest to face judgement.
Plauges, locusts, famines, and diseases willeb widespread as Anti- chist reigns supreme, but only over those who are deservent of punishemn. thoug many wll convert in this time period as well and resit, becmign Tribulation saints.
afte rhis period, the batlte of srmegedon will occure inwhich israel i atacked by anti-Chrusts forces...
Jesus apears to save them, an then rule th world.
I reect this theory, a I find its scriptural supprot unsount, and find its less than accurate protrayal of two seperate "second Cmings" absurd. ( In it Jesus tehcniclaly returns twice more, this three advents, yet the last is still called thr second Coming.)
No scrtue actlaly supports this veiw,in any of the above varients.least of all the last and most popular version.
I hold currenty the amillinial beleif, inwhich Jesus comes again, and can come at any time, and then ruled, juging the wicked and te perverse whiel savin ose who have been faithful.
This seems to hold up better to Scriptrues anyway.
Nonetheless, I am not here to exlain the divergent beelifs, but though I did, I only want ot undestand why I am so misundestood by the majority of Protestants out there? simpley for rejecting this relativldey new idea.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.
You're not alone, Zarove. More and more Christians are beginning to question the validity of the rapture theory. Hank Hanengraf, President of CRI (A HUGE Protestant ministry) very recently made his opinion known after MANY MANY years of study, that he does not hold to the "Lahaye-ism"Hanengraf is the host of the "Bible Answer Man" radio broadcast, on daily in many areas on FM.
-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2005.
The thing is, I never held the Rapture theory, and didnt even know what it was till I was in my 20's...I went to Churhc of Christ, which does not teach this theory, and never has.
I have never held it,even after hearign of it.
Bur this discussion with Faith and a recent tlak with my Pastor ( who worires if I am saved or not as I do not get entheusiastic abtu wrship, which reads here to mean lifting my arms up in the air and satng and dancign about and such...) has lead me to wonder why this is such a difficult concept, that a christain can reject the rapture? I eman, it wasnt een taught at all till the 1830's...
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.
The claim that this theory was not taught until the late eighteen hundreds--is ridiculous--when you consider the fact that it is found in the Scriptures themselves, Zarove.I have provided writings that do indeed reveal that some people did recognize the teaching. But even if fallable men throughout time never saw it, does that mean anything--in light of the fact that it is revealed in the Scriptures?
No matter how early a church may have existed, any church is the wrong place to look for the truth! The church of Paul's own day had already gone astray in many ways. Most of his epistles had to be written to try and correct error that was already finding its way into the the earliest church.
Those who lived in the days of Peter and John had already embraced serious heresies.
Paul had to warn the Ephesian Elders:
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. Acts 20:29-30
The Word of God is the source of truth, Zarove. Never mind what some early church did or didn't believe. The New Testament itself will tell us what the first Christians believed, where they went astray, and what we ought to believe and practice today.
The early church believed in and actively watched for the imminent return of Christ. Consequently, they must have believed in a pre- Tribulation rapture. It was known as the blessed hope:
Titus 2:13-14
...while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.
The claim that this theory was not taught until the late eighteen hundreds--is ridiculous--when you consider the fact that it is found in the Scriptures themselves, Zarove.
The scriptures teahc no suhcthing... this we have discussed. You have not sown any scriotrual support fr the rapture. you only claim to be able to. But your evidnece relis n takign oen verse, then another form another book, then another, nd interpretign them in ligh of the Rapture theory, rather than usgn them to arrive at the rapture.
firts coems the theory, then he proof texts...
I have provided writings that do indeed reveal that some people did recognize the teaching.
Such as? The Pseudo-ephaream sermon is obviosuy post-trib at best, and seemed ore standard fift centry, and lacked a rapture in contect.
The other wuotes even taken alone and not in contect reveal no real rapture link, and if you want,I ca ost THEM so the reader can judge for temselves in contect.
You have shown no early chruch father.No scriptrue.Nothing.
But even if fallable men throughout time never saw it, does that mean anything--in light of the fact that it is revealed in the Scriptures?
It's not revealed in scrptrue...thats the point...
No matter how early a church may have existed, any church is the wrong place to look for the truth! The church of Paul's own day had already gone astray in many ways. Most of his epistles had to be written to try and correct error that was already finding its way into the the earliest church.
But none of the epistles of Paul mention a rapture and to seperate "secnd cmings", or any of the trappings of Ratyre thery.
neither does any other Verse...
Those who lived in the days of Peter and John had already embraced serious heresies.
which doesnt sow me wher ein scripoture I ca find the rapture...wich itsself i a serous heresey...
Think Faith, why cant I say that. even those who lived in apostolic times embraced hereseys easily, ow much easier woidl it be today/ The rapture is nto mentioend by the Fathers you pulled quotes form an is not in the Bible. its an invention of man.
Paul had to warn the Ephesian Elders:
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. Acts 20:29-30
such wolves notw that the apostles lay dead 2 millinia find it easier to press there ideas into doctorines, thi is how the Rapture was made so easy to spread...
The Word of God is the source of truth, Zarove.
To this I agree, this is why I reject the Rapture...
Never mind what some early church did or didn't believe.
Or, for that matter, Modern ones...
and again, the earlu beleivers do have thigns gign or them... the fac tthat the raptre was nto tauhgt by them, or anyone, untol the 1830's des cast a uspicion on it...and the fact thta it canot be found n scripture unless you deisre to se eit in verses taken out fo context is even mroe frigtful...
The New Testament itself will tell us what the first Christians believed, where they went astray, and what we ought to believe and practice today.
And the New testament is silent on the Rapture theory, makign no mention of it... unless, that is, you start whthte remise at i is true and seek justification, and begin to apply verses to it.
The early church believed in and actively watched for the imminent return of Christ.
Treu, but then...
Consequently, they must have believed in a pre- Tribulation rapture.
False. This dos not logicay flow form your statement. espeiclaly sie you have no sciroture to support rhe raputree.
It was known as the blessed hope:
Titus 2:13-14
...while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
No, this si the second coming, NOT the pre tribulaitn rapture.
Liekwise, Faith, I ask you not to bother iwht proof texts and argments hee. The poitn o this thread is to cnsle me over the aparent lack of undertanding I get as a Christain who rejects the Raotrue, not to debate the rapture theory itsself. I idnt een give full accunt f why I rejected it here, and ask yo show thi courtesy.
I mean, you can ask me wueatsiksn or tell me why you find my posiitonas hard, but this tread sint a debate thread...
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.
"The scriptures teahc no suhcthing... this we have discussed." - Zarove, to Faith01The scripture do teach such a thing (To deny it, is to deny scripture). The only thing we disagree on is on the timing of it. And if it helps, don't refer to it as a 'rapture', call it a 'caught up' ;)
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 05, 2005.
"The only thing we disagree on is on the timing of it" - DavidUnless..you believe we are going to encounter the wrath of God..
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 05, 2005.
"Unless..you believe we are going to encounter the wrath of God" - DavidWhich is plainly unbiblical.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 05, 2005.
what we agree on is a ssecond coming. we do not, hwoever, see the seven year triblation of antchrist cumlinatign in christ rmeovign his cruhc, and allowign further sufferign befofe he returns for a thrd time...
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.
Please excuse me then, Zarove.I wasn't aware that David set up this board specifically so that you could control the threads to suit your own need for being understood!
Your Pastor has good reason to be worried about you.
You deny God's own Word about such matters.
Your problem is that you think the rapture of the church has to be called a second coming. So you mock this revelation asking, where does the Scriptures say there are two second comings?
Well., the Scriptures certainly describe two very different events. The gathering of all believers past, present and future in one moment to meet Christ in the air--snatched away in a time when we least expect it.
...and his return to the earth after the great Tribulation and judgement of the wicked. Certainly by this point, we should be expecting Christ--what with all the fulfilled prophecies regarding antichrist and all. At this point we would not be "least expecting" Him!
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.
Please excuse me then, Zarove. I wasn't aware that David set up this board specifically so that you could control the threads to suit your own need for being understood!{The point of the thread is why Non-Rapture christausn are automaticlaly ostracised by rapture christains. I used myself to put it nto perspective, but the core issue is why peopel liek you must think along these lines. I don think you are automaticlaly unsaved for beleivign this man-made doctorine, Faith, so why shoiudl tyou hodl any diergent a couresy for me?}-Zarove
Your Pastor has good reason to be worried about you.
{He worreis as I don dance and clap my ahnds and lift my ams in the air... which sit my personality type...}-Zarove
You deny God's own Word about such matters.
{No, you do. Or at the least you fail t present God's word in any intellegent manner.}-Zarove
Your problem is that you think the rapture of the church has to be called a second coming.
{No, I htink it needs ot be junked as a thory...}-Zarove
So you mock this revelation asking, where does the Scriptures say there are two second comings?
{I am not known for mockery. However, your rapture theory does demand two seperate comings of crist. One to rapture the curhc, the othe to rule from Jerusalem. this is two seperate events, they both cannot be called "The Second Coming."}-Zarove
Well., the Scriptures certainly describe two very different events.
{No, it doesnt. Your interpretaiton is of two because you don see ow he can coem a a theif in he ngith and have an impresive enteraug of events ocucre at the ocming, which is only evidnee of yoyr onw inabiltiy to undersand that the idea was that these impresive dispalys woidl nto be expected when they occure.}-Zarove
The gathering of all believers past, present and future in one moment to meet Christ in the air--snatched away in a time when we least expect it.
{Uhm, this s not however the isuse. The isuse was that this wll happen BEFORE the seven year "tribulation period" when anti-Crist rles the earth.
remember, Im A-Mill, so I think that christ cems bakc and collects us, sure, but not before any tribulation, or even after... He just coems bakc ad then its game over, the wrld is destroyed. similar, in fact, to Pseudo-epharem. we are collected befoe the wprld is desotryed. We are not, hwoevr, raptured off beoe the Antichrist rules.}-Zarove
...and his return to the earth after the great Tribulation and judgement of the wicked.
{This is not written, even on your quotes form the ealry chruch fathers, and not in scurture. we will all, beleive an unbeleiver, be here when the Chrust comes.
he will coem a seocnd time, nto a second time, then a third. ( and I mean no mockery, but this IS the rpature theory, the three Comings of christ...)
we will be here,not expectign anyhting, then it shall happen, and occure ' as a tef in the Night", when no one is expectign it. then the beleivers will be caled up, an th wicked casg into the destruction. }-Zarove
Certainly by this point, we should be expecting Christ--what with all the fulfilled prophecies regarding antichrist and all.
{according o you there can be no flfilled prophecies abouthte Anti- christ yet, sicne we arent raptured, unelss you are clamign now to be a tribulkation saint...rememner, im the oen syaign we will live here tll the biter end...}-Zarove
At this point we would not be "least expecting" Him!
{ Taht is, if you continue to think in he "Seven year tribulation" mode, which I do not.}-Zarove
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.
No Zarove--you missed the point altogether!If the rapture of the Church doesn't happen until after armageddon and the conquering of antichrist and Satan etc...how can this occur in a time that we least expect?
It is you who says the church has to go through this terrible judgement that God is pouring out on the earth.
Yet the rapture is described as happening in a time when things are good and people would least expect Him.
How can you say that these two descriptions are the same moment?
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.
That still asusmes a battle of Armegeddon even... when I grew u, thog I odnt nessiarily hold this veiw now, I wa taighthat revelaiton wa alreayd fulfileld in nero's persecution of the curhc, for instance.Yiy still think too heavly on end times ideas you alreayd have to see that not all peopel agree.
That is the point of this thread...
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.
I understand that Zarove. seesh!What's your point then?
Not everyone agrees, so truth is not knowable?
That's the greatest lie Satan puts forth.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.
My poijt is, how we handle disagreements shoid be more civil than smpley declarign eahc other apostates.I know truth is knowable, leanred hat form sinece of all places.
However, when disagreements do arise, why shoud peopel, liek you, jst assume you are right and we are worng sumerily? you know, you cil just as eaisly be mistaken here Faith. no matter how "filled withthe Holy spirit" you htink yout interrpetation is.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.
I don't think I called you an apostate, Zarove.For that matter, I also have not been a part of this claim you made that you are :ostracised by rapture christains.
Just because we disagree Zarove--doesn't mean we are being uncivil.
And also Zarove, don't you see that you also think you are always right? You constantly shoot down every point I make.
But in all honesty, I think you recognize that what I say makes sense. This is why you have abandoned any theological discussion in favor of emotionalism. It is a dead give-away. You are not the only poster who falls back on this, so I recognize it as a sort of escape mechanism.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.
I don't think I called you an apostate, Zarove.{Faith, the point is thought hat you see me as less than a Bibe beleiivng Christan. Besides, you DID say my pastor had right to be wconcenred ove r my slavation... and he wasnt even rellay worreid abotu it for the rapture...}-Zarove
For that matter, I also have not been a part of this claim you made that you are :ostracised by rapture christains.
{Many do, and you dont come off as firnedly to those who reject rapture theory.}-Zarove
Just because we disagree Zarove--doesn't mean we are being uncivil.
{No. disagreeign is fine. But soem of the things said arent alway simpe disagreance... see below...}-Zarove
And also Zarove, don't you see that you also think you are always right? You constantly shoot down every point I make.
{ I admit I am fallable, iwever, the evidence you present is untenable and myst be scrutinised. For instance, if I said " Bein gay is not a sin", you cisld show me Leviticus 18:20 to disprove me... so far wihthe rapture, nothign has availed itsself...}-Zarove
But in all honesty, I think you recognize that what I say makes sense.
{Not harldy. Otherwise I wiudl conceed. But, what you say makes no sence. least of all when yu peice togahe runrelated scurptures arudn the raptue thory...}-Zarove
This is why you have abandoned any theological discussion in favor of emotionalism.
{I beelive I have remained theologial in the other threads. This thread was not meant to discuss the variosu takes on raptue theory, but how peopel treat those who do not hold it... its not emotioalism, its the topic itsself.
On the other thread, I remain point-by--point, and oen can harldy clal that emotianlism...}-Zarove
It is a dead give-away. You are not the only poster who falls back on this, so I recognize it as a sort of escape mechanism.
{ I havent been emotional to date. its not rlelay a British trait... Everyhtign I posted int he acutsl raptue thread is aout the topic, even you admit that when you say i shchallenge the tppics.
So where is the emotionalism?}-Zarove
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.
Faith, somthign you need to coider.This thread is not relay designed to defend or attack rapture theory. rather, is abouththe feeligns of aleination prodiced by certian attetudes.
see, as a Nin-Rapture Christain, I must deal with objectins and dohbts of my sneserity by rapture Christaisn suh as yourself, which are needless.
Rather than this beign a discussion about the rapture, its about feeling free to express oens veiws, especially in a Protestant dominated, rapture acceptign crowsd.
So, rather thna defendign the rapture on this thread, and claimign that I am decendign into emotionalism, try to rmmeber what the point of this thread is. itsaiut freedom of speech and free exchange of ideas in impeded by previaling views and convicions, which themselves are nproven, beig hoisted upon us.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.
For those who believe in a "rapture", as is commonly understood among evangelicals today:
Is it a requirement for salvation to believe in the "rapture" or to be a pre-trib, pre-mellenial?
Do those who don't believe these theories believe a false gospel?
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 06, 2005.
Hank Hanegraaf is a preterist. He recently wrote a fictional series based on his take of events. The best part of his story is that Tyndale House, the publisher who produced the "Left Behind" garbage, is also going to publish his story. Lahaye was quoted saying he felt betrayed.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2005.
Andy, for what it's worth, I will share about when I was a Protestant. My pastor didn't really preach about end times stuff, but a good number of people in our church believed in the rapture, largely due to influence from the _Left Behind_ books. Also Protestant radio in our area preached the rapture. I believed in the rapture simply because I thought that's what all Christians believed. When I went to college and heard other Protestants (mostly Calvinist) saying they did not believe in it, and providing Scriptural reasons, I couldn't say for sure that they were wrong. The general idea among Protestants is that it's one of the non- essentials for salvation, so one could believe either way and still be saved.
-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), January 06, 2005.
Thanks Emily.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 06, 2005.
Its a shame that so many people learned about what the rapture is through a fictional account like the Left Behind Series. I myself do not like the series and actually have only read snippets here and there that are quoted in other books. For example, Lahaye and Jenkins wrote a non-fictional book titled "Are We Living in the Endtimes?" In this book--they quote from their fictional series often to further a point.I just can't get into such a detailed point-by-point description of the rapture like that. I like to think of it as a bigger mystery. I don't necessary like the idea that airplane pilots will vanish in the sky, leaving a plane to crach to the earth. This idea is the author's contention and could well be logical--I just don't need to read such stuff. The idea that all of the raised from the dead--leave in their wake, their clothes--neatly folded.., just seams to bother me. Too much detail.
But I won't allow such a series to destroy biblical truth for me. There is no doubt that the Bible reveals that Christ is returning for us--to bring us to His Fathers house., that He will protect His Bride- -not judge her., and that there is also a time when Jesus returns to the earth--with His Bride., to destroy the wicked and set up His kingdom on earth.
There is no protestant teaching that says we must believe one way about the rapture or another.
Salvation comes to those who have placed their faith in Jesus to save them. Believe in Him, and you will see everlasting life. The rest is non-essential.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.
"The rest is non-essential."Not according to what God inspired the Aposlte John to write in 2 John 9 which states, "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 06, 2005.
So only people that agree with Kevin 100% will be saved. Because, (e.g.) believing in taking Communion monlthly instead of weekly will damn you straight to hell.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 06, 2005.
David wrote, "So only people that agree with Kevin 100% will be saved. Because, (e.g.) believing in taking Communion monlthly instead of weekly will damn you straight to hell."No, I never said that "people that agree with Kevin 100% will be saved" now did I David??? It is doing what God says that will make one saved for it is the gospel that is God's power to salvation...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 07, 2005.
Well God says that if we believe in His Son we will be saved. He also says that our *works* are as filthy rags before an Holy God.We go to heaven based on the work of Jesus Christ to save us. Salvation is a gift--and cannot therefore be earned. Otherwise it is no longer a gift--but a wage.
Where does the Bible say that Jesus Christ is a wage earned?
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.
Where does the Bible say that Jesus Christ is a wage earned? - Faith
I think you're misinterpreting what Kevin said. If we accept a gift from our Father (which none of us deserve, by the way), and we obey Him out of love, how does that make the gift a wage?
Now if we accept the gift and then spit in His face or later throw it away, are we still justified?
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 07, 2005.
I think that if your salvation depends on works--it is a salvation that you are earning. But a gift is free. If someone hands me a present and I reach into my pocket to pay for it--or I tell the person that I'll clean their house every day for three weeks, can that gift still be considered a free gift?
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.
Faith wrote, "I think that if your salvation depends on works--it is a salvation that you are earning."What does the following passage mean to you Faith: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13).
I suppose that the following passages also mean nothing to you Faith...
"5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Listen to what happens to those who lack the things above...
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11).
Why even the need to make "your call and election sure" if Jesus did everything for us on the cross???
Your "do nothing salvation" (i.e. no works) will send many people on the broad road that leads to destruction...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.
I think that if your salvation depends on works--it is a salvation that you are earning. But a gift is free. If someone hands me a present and I reach into my pocket to pay for it--or I tell the person that I'll clean their house every day for three weeks, can that gift still be considered a free gift? n -Faith
I think you misunderstood me Faith. It's not about "earning" it. No one can "earn" it. It's about love. It's about gratitude. Love is about mutual giving, not getting paid wages or "earning" gifts.
In about our relationship with God. He is our Father and we are His children. We are covenanted with Him. It's not a contract. In the covenant of Marriage, we are expected to do certain things in love. If we don't do them, but claim we love, we are liars. If we do them without love, we are not fulfilling the covenant.
A good soldier isn't a mercenary. He/she does their duty for love of country and not money. Just because they receive money to support themselves and their family doesn't make them a mercenary. At the same time, if they don't fulfill their duties, they will be punished and lose their status as a soldier.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 08, 2005.
I think that if your salvation depends on works--it is a salvation that you are earning. But a gift is free. If someone hands me a present and I reach into my pocket to pay for it--or I tell the person that I'll clean their house every day for three weeks, can that gift still be considered a free gift? n -Faith
What you're describing is a contractual obligation. Just because your salvation requires works, doesn't make it "earned." I think you misunderstood me Faith. It's not about "earning" salvation. No one "earns" it. It's about love. It's about gratitude. Love is about mutual giving, not getting paid wages or "earning" gifts.
It's about our relationship with God. He is our Father and we are His children. We are covenanted with Him in a family relationship. It's not a contract! In the covenant of Marriage, we are expected to do certain things in love. If we don't do them, but claim we love, we are liars. If we do them without love, we are not fulfilling the covenant and they are meaningless. If we commit adultery we violate the covenant and hurt the one we're covenanted with to the depths of their heart.
A good soldier isn't a mercenary. He/she does their duty for love of country and not money. Just because they receive some money to support themselves and their family doesn't make them a mercenary. At the same time, if they don't fulfill their duties, they will be punished and lose their status as a soldier.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 08, 2005.
Moderator,Would you kindly delete the post just above the previous one of mine? Thanks.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 08, 2005.
Kevin,I never said *do* nothing. A true Christian can't help but grow good fruit.
The difference is in that without salvation first--we can do no good in the eyes of God because we are not of the Spirit and are only controled by the flesh. Even unbelievers who do good things cannot please God.
Receiving Christ enables us to walk like Him, and do more than just good deeds. We have a power from on High....
There are many people who think they are saved--but Jesus says to some of them, "depart from me for I do not "know" you.
The reason we do good is not to get saved--it is because we are saved.
And I am sure that there are those who think they are saved, but the Word never took root and they fell away. Their faith was not real. And Christ was not found in them.
But I myself do not follow Jesus to get saved, I follow Jesus because He saved me and enables me to do great things in His name.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.
Andy,I think the problem stems from differing views on what is salvation.
Some people think Salvation is eternal life.
But I see salvation as a deliverance from the power of sin and from the penalty thereof which is death.
Once saved by our faith--God predestines us to many blessings such as being adopted children of His and of course--eternal life. We do have to work out our salvation., not to be saved, but to now follow Jesus and grow and matutre. We are rewarded in heaven according to what we did in this life as saved Christians.
So fight the good fight and resist evil so that your reward in heaven is grand--but never because you think that by your actions you somehow deserved heaven.
No one deserves heaven. We are all sinners deserving of God's wrath. But thanks to Jesus--we are spared that wrath because Jesus took it upon Himself instead.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.
"I never said *do* nothing. A true Christian can't help but grow good fruit."Sure you did Faith... Everytime you say one is saved by faith alone, you are saying that all one has to do is "believe" and they are saved... This is a "do nothing" salvation plan that is not found in the Bible...
"The difference is in that without salvation first--we can do no good in the eyes of God because we are not of the Spirit and are only controled by the flesh."
This is not true...Did you not read in another thread where I told you about the Centurion in Acts chapter 10???
"Even unbelievers who do good things cannot please God."
Obviously the Centurion in Acts chapter 10 did the things that caused God to take notice for they came up before Him as a memorial...
"Receiving Christ enables us to walk like Him, and do more than just good deeds. We have a power from on High...."
In order to "receive Christ", one must do what He says... One does not need "power" to walk like Christ...
"There are many people who think they are saved--but Jesus says to some of them, "depart from me for I do not "know" you."
Which is exactly what these people who claim "faith alone" salvation will find out on the day of judgment...
"The reason we do good is not to get saved--it is because we are saved."
We do good not because we are saved, it is to be saved... You are mistaken...
"And I am sure that there are those who think they are saved, but the Word never took root and they fell away. Their faith was not real. And Christ was not found in them."
One cannot fall from someplace they have never been in the first place...
"But I myself do not follow Jesus to get saved, I follow Jesus because He saved me and enables me to do great things in His name."
Then you are not following the Jesus spoken of in the Bible...
What did Jesus say??? (See John 14:15)...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.
I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture either.Many of Jesus' followers were put to death for standing up for Him.
Why do so many Americans, and people in places where persecution is rare, believe we will be miraculously taken out of the world.
Thousands of guillotines are being shipped to America. The stage is being set up for an Antichrist as well.
The gathering does not occur until the end of the end is here.
-- Jesse (no@nospam.com), January 11, 2005.
Hi Jesse, Welcome!The whole rapture phenomena has taken a great hold in America. Why? Because we're spoiled rotten and don't have a clue what it means to "suffer for Christ."
Faith, you said "But I see salvation as a deliverance from the power of sin and from the penalty thereof which is death."
Yes, we are BEING saved, BEING delivered from the power of sin. It is not a one time event but an ongoing event; being forever transformed from light to light; glory to glory, until we are transformed into the likeness of His son. (I think that's in Corinthians, my paraphrase of course) And how is that accomplished? By continual submission to the one true God.
Gail
-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 11, 2005.
No Gail..,Working out our salvation does not mean that our salvation is a work.
Salvation enables us to do the work of resisting the evil one and serving God--because we are saved.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 11, 2005.
Jesse,Jesus told us that in this world we would have trouble and that we would see persecution at the hands of the wicked....and the wicked one.
We are to perservere and resist the devil., and we are to expect trouble.
But no Christian has ever been persecuted by God.
To believe that we would suffer the wrath of God during His judgement of unbelievers in those days--is to really miss who our Savior is.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 11, 2005.
Faith, are you addressing my last post? Your response doesn't seem to "fit" with what I said.
-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 11, 2005.
Yes Gail.,You seemed to be saying that salvation was an ongoing thing that we have to *accomplish* or something like that. You talked about salvation as being accomplished and said it wasn't a one time deal.
So I was pointing out that salvation is not a work or something we accomplish. It is a one time deal. And once we are saved, only then can we even hope to follow God.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 11, 2005.
"So I was pointing out that salvation is not a work or something we accomplish. It is a one time deal. And once we are saved, only then can we even hope to follow God."That is not correct... Salvation is a process... One is not saved automatically and then they can follow God... One must diligently work at putting to death the deeds of the body and only when one has been approved by God will he be saved...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 13, 2005.
No Kevin--we are not found righteous because of anything we have done or not done. We are found righteous in Christ because God approves of Him only.Man cannot please God otherwise.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.
Salvation is only a "one time deal" if a person is immediately taken from this earth after receiving initial justification. Otherwise, there is a journey and "He who perseverses to the end shall be saved."Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2005.
Because those who perservere 'till the end--were found to be in Christ. Salvation come by faith, not by anything we do.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.
Then what do they need to "persevere" in?
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2005.
They need to perservere their faith in life! They can't have their reward until they do so.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.
Faith wrote, "No Kevin--we are not found righteous because of anything we have done or not done. We are found righteous in Christ because God approves of Him only. Man cannot please God otherwise."Again Faith you are mistaken for God plainly says in Hebrews 12:14, "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord"
One must perfect "holiness" or they will not see God...
Here is another verse that proves my point for God stated in 2 Corinthians 7:1, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
One is not automatically perfected once they have obeyed the gospel... Conversion is a process and one must diligently work at it in order to be saved...
This is the one of the first things that a new Christian must do in order to show the fruit of the Spirit in their lives for 2 Peter 3:18 states, "but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."
One cannot remain a Christian unless they grow and mature in Christ...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 16, 2005.
Kevin--I think you miss the point altogether--which is that these things are all evidence of a saved soul. None of your verses indicate that doing these things saves us. They simply reflect that because we are in Him- -we are to do these things. If we didn't, would we really be able to say we are in Him? No. The Scripture says we would be liars.
I think you need to recognize that we are able because we are saved, and not that we are saved because we are able. God says that apart from His Son--we cannot please Him. Therefore nothing we could do is good in His sight unless we are found in His Son--who fully pleases Him.
The Bible says that we can be found in Him if we believe.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.
Faith,You wrote, "Kevin--I think you miss the point altogether--which is that these things are all evidence of a saved soul."
Sorry Faith but you are mistaken... One cannot be saved and then have to perfect Holiness in order to see God...
"None of your verses indicate that doing these things saves us. They simply reflect that because we are in Him- -we are to do these things. If we didn't, would we really be able to say we are in Him? No. The Scripture says we would be liars."
We do these things because God commands that we do them... We must obey God's commandments or else we will not be saved... Yes, doing these things allows us to remain on the difficult and through the narrow gate that leads to eternal life for God says in Matthew 7:14, "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
How can the way which leads to life be "difficult" if we are already saved before we begin our journey through narrow gate??? Sorry, this is not possible...
"I think you need to recognize that we are able because we are saved, and not that we are saved because we are able. God says that apart from His Son--we cannot please Him. Therefore nothing we could do is good in His sight unless we are found in His Son--who fully pleases Him."
We do not do these things because we are saved Faith, we do them in order that we might be saved...
"The Bible says that we can be found in Him if we believe."
No actually the Bible states that we can be found in Him if we "walk in the light as He is in the Light"... (1 John 1:7).
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.
No--I think the message says that we can know that we are in Him--if we are walking in His way.It isn't because we walk in His way that we are in Him--but we walk in His way, because we are in Him.
1John 2:3-6
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.
Faith,Here is that one little word that will always trip you up...
You said, "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his command"
That one little word is "if"... If we don't obey His commands, then we will not be saved it is that simple...
You claim that one is saved first and then they do works of obedience... That is not what the Bible teaches concerning salvation and you have been misled... Not only on this subject, but many others and it appears that you are too hard headed to see the scriptures that are in plain view right in front of you...
Salvation is conditional and I challenge you to prove otherwise...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.
But Kevin--If we have come to know Him--we are saved. Only if we are saved, can we obey His commands. This is how we can know we are His--that we walk in His ways.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2005.
"If we have come to know Him--we are saved. Only if we are saved, can we obey His commands. This is how we can know we are His--that we walk in His ways."Faith, where is your proof of your assertion that "Only if we are saved, can we obey His commands"???
Please provide the scripture(s) that state that one must be saved before they can obey God???
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 18, 2005.
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ Romans 6:1-23What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin– because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey– whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to everincreasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
*********************************
Salvation enables us to walk as Jesus did.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2005.
"Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ Romans 6:1-23"We are only "Dead to Sin" because our sins have been washed away once we obey the gospel and have our sins washed away by being baptized in water... Just because your sins are washed away does not mean that you are automatically saved and there is nothing that you can do to change that state... There are many things that a new Christian must do in order to remain sin free...
A Christian can still sin... And if a Christian continues to sin and does not repent of that sin, there there is nothing left to hope for except the fearful expectation of judment. (See Hebrews 10:26-39)... Christians will most certainly be judged along with the rest of everyone who has ever lived...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 19, 2005.
You are wrong Kevin,Those who belong to God will be saved from that judgement. Biblical history shows that God preserves those who love Him from judgement.
2Peter 2:4-10
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)– if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 20, 2005.
"You are wrong Kevin, Those who belong to God will be saved from that judgement. Biblical history shows that God preserves those who love Him from judgement."No Faith, you are the one who is mistaken. Your quoting of 2Peter 2:4-10 does not prove your point at all... All these verses state is that there is a way out of temptation which is exactly what 1 Cor 10:13 states, "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."
God also says in James 1:12-15, "12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."
Only those who are "approved" will receive the crown of life... Those who sin and continue to sin will die for this is exactly what the passages above state.
Here is another passage that states that we will be judged for God says in Romans 14:10-12, "10 ...For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God."
All means "all" and "every tongue shall confess to God" means every tongue shall confess to God and that means Christians included...
Your continuing refusal to see the truth as revealed in scripture is evidence that you don't know what you are talking about and that you have been deceived by those who have taught you this error.
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 20, 2005.
Kevin--There is a big difference between the Judgement Seat of Christ that Christians will face and the Great White Throne of Judgement that unbelievers face.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 23, 2005.
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh REAP CORRUPTION; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.How can a Christian reap corruption? By living according to the flesh. Paul is talking to believers here.
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
2 Cor. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23/ IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and THERE IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS.
The Great White Throne Judgement
Rev 20:11-15 Says everyone will be there, including those whose names are written in the book of life. Verse 12 says they we are judged according to our deeds. There is one final judgment and we will all be there.
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 23, 2005.
Wrong Gail..,Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person (amomg the dead) was judged according to what he had done.
The only reason the book of life is there--is to show that none of the dead are found to be in it!
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 23, 2005.
Believe it or not, Faith, at some point you will die, and I will die, hence we will be called DEAD! Physically DEAD, (Greek, Nekros -- a corpse).
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 23, 2005.
But this verse refers to the Dead as being the unbelievers., those not alive in Christ., those not raised at the resurrection.By this point, the church has been raised (raptured) and the Tribulation saints have been also raised to life.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 23, 2005.
Perhaps you could break the passage down for me so I can see exactly where you're getting all of that; i.e., "tribulation saints" "raptured saints" etc.
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 23, 2005.
Oh, where in the Book of Revelations is the so-called "Judgment Seat of Christ" referred to in which only believers appear for their rewards?
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 23, 2005.
Gail,Revelation is dealing with the endtimes and the judgement against unbelievers.....
The judgement seat of Christ is mentioned elsewhere....
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 23, 2005.
ALL of Revelations is yet to happen?
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 23, 2005.
John begins this book by explaining how he received this revelation from God. He then records specific messages to the seven churches in Asia. After that, John shifts dramatically to the future rise of evil, culminating in the antichrist. John covers the triumph of the king of kings--the wedding of the Lamb, the final judgement of unbelievers and the coming of the new Jerusalem.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 23, 2005.
"There is a big difference between the Judgement Seat of Christ that Christians will face and the Great White Throne of Judgement that unbelievers face."There is no such thing as two separate judgements one for the believer and one for the unbeliever... The Bible only speaks of one judgment... I gave you the verses in my last post that clearly show that we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ... You said earlier that Christians will not be judged and you are not correct in your belief and I have clearly shown in the Bible that everyone will be judged by Christ...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 23, 2005.
Right, Faith, and John just failed to mention in all of this, the great and glorious "reward ceremony" for the believers!So one has to disregard the multiplicity of scriptures concerning "judgment according to works" and rather embrace a doctrine that teaches the Judgment Seat of Christ for the believer will only be a reward ceremony.
And yet here:
2 Cor. 5:9 Werefore WE LABOUR, that, whether present or absent, we MAY BE ACCEPTED OF HIM. 10 For we must all appear before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OR BAD. 11 Knowing therefore the TERROR OF THE LORD, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and THERE IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS.
There is no such thing as your conjecture!
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 23, 2005.
Gail,Exactly!!! God is not a respecter of persons... All of us will stand before the one and only judgment seat of Christ...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 23, 2005.
Christians are already judged in Christ unto salvation and eternal life, Kevin. For the true believer who is found in the book of life-- there is no condemnation. That is what the Bible teaches.Christians do face a judgement of their works--but they are saved whether their works burn up in the fire or survive the testing with flying colors. That is what the Bible teaches.
Matt 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Our judgement is unto rewards--not to determine if we are saved and receive eternal life.
1 Cor. 3:13-15
...his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 24, 2005.
Notice the part about believers being rewarded for their works when Jesus returns with his angels, not in heaven previously.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 24, 2005.
Luke,Yes you are correct... Faith does a good job at avoiding scriptures that plainly show that we will "all" be judged...
Faith wrote, "Christians are already judged in Christ unto salvation and eternal life, Kevin."
Where is your scripture that proves that one is already saved and will not be judged because they are a Christian???
Faith wrote, "For the true believer who is found in the book of life- - there is no condemnation. That is what the Bible teaches."
Yes, this will be found out when everyone is judged, not just the unbelievers as you continue to assert with no proof...
Faith wrote, "Christians do face a judgement of their works--but they are saved whether their works burn up in the fire or survive the testing with flying colors. That is what the Bible teaches."
No that is not true... Again you misunderstand the Bible... as Matt 16:27 clearly states that "He will reward each person according to what he has done."
Yes our reward will be based on what we have done, i.e. our works... for that is what everyone will be judged by... God is not a respecter of persons... Everyone will have the same standard of judgment... Those who lived under the Old Testament Law will be judged by that law, those who live under the New Testament Law will be judged by that law... Everyone will be judged by their works according to what has been written... (See Revelation 20:12).
Faith wrote, "Our judgement is unto rewards--not to determine if we are saved and receive eternal life."
Again you are incorrect... Our judgment is for eternal life or eternal damnation, there are only two choices...
You misunderstand 1 Cor. 3:13-15, those that are being judged in this scripture are the teachers... and those who do not survive, i.e. not continuing in God's grace and obey His will as they were taught to do will be burned in the lake of fire, this is what the teacher will lose, one of his pupils...
There are not two separate judgments as you have been deceived into believing and the Bible nowhere states this nonsense... There is only one judgment and it is plainly revealed in Romans 2:5-10 which states, "5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness- -indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 24, 2005.
I am sorry Kevin--but I just think Christ's judgement seat is for Christians only--I think that the White Throne judgement is for the world. Jesus judges at the seat of Christ and God is the judge at the White Throne--I know--Jesus is God--yet, there is a difference in these judgements.Even Jesus says that He did not come to judge the World
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 24, 2005.
John 12:47-50“As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one (unbeliever) who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 24, 2005.
Romans 8:1-4Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 24, 2005.
Faith,You wrote, "I am sorry Kevin--but I just think Christ's judgement seat is for Christians only--I think that the White Throne judgement is for the world."
This is your opinion Faith and it does not agree with what the Bible reveals concerning judgment day...
You wrote, "Jesus judges at the seat of Christ and God is the judge at the White Throne--I know--Jesus is God--yet, there is a difference in these judgements."
This is not true... God has committed "all" judgment to His son Jesus for the word of God states in John 5:22-23, "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,"
There is no difference... Jesus is the judge at the one and only judgment...
You wrote, "Even Jesus says that He did not come to judge the World"
He didn't come to judge the world the first time... He came to save the world for it is written in John 12:47, "And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world."
Please remember that the words that Jesus spoke will judge us on the last day... (See John 12:48).
Jesus also said in John 9:39, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind."
You quoted, Romans 8:1-4 however, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ because they were cleansed from their previous sins and if they are still in Christ when He returns they will be saved... Those Christians who are outside of Christ will be lost...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 24, 2005.
Kevin--We are forgiven of our sins, past, present and future when we receive Christ as our Savior.
The Bible says that there in no longer *any* condemnation for those who are *in Christ*--which is what baptism or being born again means.
Jesus not only said that he will not judge the world--unbelievers, but that there is someone else who will do that--the Father.
Likewise, the Father will not judge believers because they are considered righteous by His Son's blood.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 25, 2005.
Faith,You wrote, "We are forgiven of our sins, past, present and future when we receive Christ as our Savior."
This is not true... Please quote the passages that state that we are forgiven of "future" sins when we receive Christ as our Saviour???
You wrote, "The Bible says that there in no longer *any* condemnation for those who are *in Christ*--which is what baptism or being born again means."
Yes, this means those who are "in Christ" which is present tense... One can be a Christian and be "outside of Christ" and not be saved on judgment day...
You wrote, "Jesus not only said that he will not judge the world-- unbelievers, but that there is someone else who will do that--the Father."
Did you not read the passages that I quoted to you that says that God has committed "all" judgment to the Son??? What part of that do you not understand???
You wrote, "Likewise, the Father will not judge believers because they are considered righteous by His Son's blood."
Again, God is not the judge, it is Jesus who will judge... Those who continue to sin and are outside of Christ will be lost...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 25, 2005.
Don't forget Kevin--that forgiveness unto salvation is about the forgiveness of one debt we owe (the penalty of death) for our [sin].When we reject Jesus Christ--then we continue to live in that sin nature--and the result is lots of sins.
But when we receive Jesus Christ, we are forgiven that penalty--that debt--which is death, and we are born-again. We are alive in Christ and no longer slaves to that sin nature.
We are forgiven--even when we screw up. The debt we owe has been paid by Jesus.
You say:
Yes, this means those who are "in Christ" which is present tense... One can be a Christian and be "outside of Christ" and not be saved on judgment day...
This is a false idea--one is not a Christian if He is not found in Christ. True Christians are saved present-tense., not later on.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 25, 2005.
Faith,You wrote, "Don't forget Kevin--that forgiveness unto salvation is about the forgiveness of one debt we owe (the penalty of death) for our [sin]."
Yes, for our past sins up to the point where we were cleansed of them when we place our faith in Christ and obey Him in being baptized in water into His death wherein His saving blood is located...
You wrote, "When we reject Jesus Christ--then we continue to live in that sin nature--and the result is lots of sins."
Yes which is my point exactly... If one continues in sin, then they have a whole lot of sin that is not cleansed by the blood of Christ...
You wrote, "But when we receive Jesus Christ, we are forgiven that penalty--that debt--which is death, and we are born-again. We are alive in Christ and no longer slaves to that sin nature."
Right, we are no longer slaves to the sin nature however, this does not mean that we cannot still sin... Once one has obeyed the gospel of Christ, they can and still do commit sin...
You wrote, "We are forgiven--even when we screw up. The debt we owe has been paid by Jesus."
We are not forgiven unless we confess and forsake those sins... (See 1 John 1:9)...
I wrote, "Yes, this means those who are "in Christ" which is present tense... One can be a Christian and be "outside of Christ" and not be saved on judgment day..."
To which you replied, "This is a false idea--one is not a Christian if He is not found in Christ. True Christians are saved present- tense., not later on."
Faith you are mistaken... One can be a Christian and still be outside of Christ... Go back and re-read 1 Cor. 5:11-13 along with 1 Cor 1:1-5 and with 2 Cor. 2:6-11... It is obvious that this man who did the wrong (having his father's wife) repented of his sins for Paul states this fact in 2 Cor. 7:8-12.
God says in 1 Tim 5:20, "Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear."
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 26, 2005.
"The Rapture" is a man-made invention, and is a great plot for movies and books. It makes great t.v., but is not Christian.Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 26, 2005.
Kevin,I think we understand sin differently.
We need forgiveness of one sin--and that is rejection of God, which manifests itself in many sins.
When we are forgiven that one sin because we have received Jesus, we are forgiven. The debt we owe--which is death, is cancelled out--paid in full. Never to be recharged back to us again. The debt is fully forgiven. We no longer have to fear eternal separation from God because we are in His Son.
Will we still make mistakes and sin? Yes--we are still living in the flesh. But forgiveness unto salvation is not about being forgiven every itty bitty little thing we might do wrong. Yes, we need to repent and keep on keepin' on. And we have the strength to do so in Him. That is what salvation is--deliverance from not only the penalty- -but also the power of sin.
Jesus said that He knows who are His and that He cannot lose us.
You teach a works earns you salvation theology that simply does not jive with the true God of the Bible.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 26, 2005.
It would be a good idea to confess your sins ritually. Not only is it a good idea, it is a Sacrament..................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 26, 2005.
To a priest we call Father? Yeah, a sacrament made by men.Jesus is our only mediator and we can confess our sins directly to God in Jesus name.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 26, 2005.
faith, you are confused. It also says don't call anyone teacher, what do your kids call the people who teach them at school? What do your kids call their male biological parent?Get back to church faith, your made up one is bad.
Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 26, 2005.
Where does the Bible instruct us not to refer to anyone on earth as teacher?Just curious--I don't remember that.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 26, 2005.
faith,Matthew 23:
"8But you, do not be called "Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,[b] and you are all brethren. 9Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. "
Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 26, 2005.
Thank you Frank,However, it is obvious to me that the instructions are refering to religious leaders.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 26, 2005.
So what? You're not supposed to call a religious leader "teacher" ..."
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 26, 2005.
Faith,You wrote, "I think we understand sin differently. We need forgiveness of one sin--and that is rejection of God, which manifests itself in many sins."
Sin is what separates us from God...
There is not one big sin as you state "that is rejection of God" for that is not taught in the Bible... Yes, rejection of God will cause one to be lost however, this is not the big "sin" that one must repent of in order to be saved from their past sins...
You wrote, "When we are forgiven that one sin because we have received Jesus, we are forgiven. The debt we owe--which is death, is cancelled out--paid in full. Never to be recharged back to us again. The debt is fully forgiven. We no longer have to fear eternal separation from God because we are in His Son."
You do err Faith... Again, there is not just "one sin" that someone must repent of before they can be saved... One must repent of "all" of their sins in their life and forsake them for that is part of the plan of salvation...
You wrote, "Will we still make mistakes and sin? Yes--we are still living in the flesh. But forgiveness unto salvation is not about being forgiven every itty bitty little thing we might do wrong."
Yes, it most certainly is Faith... This again is where you have been taught wrong... Salvation is a continual process, one is not automatically saved and then they begin the Christian walk, one has their sins washed away so they can begin their Christian walk... A Christian will still sin because as you said we are "living in the flesh" however, as the Christian grows, they will show the fruit of the Spirit more in their lives and the word of God will dwell in them and they will sin less and less as they let God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit dwell in them...
You wrote, "Yes, we need to repent and keep on keepin' on. And we have the strength to do so in Him. That is what salvation is-- deliverance from not only the penalty- -but also the power of sin."
If we were completely delivered from the "power of sin" when we were saved, then we would not continue to sin... That is why we are admonished time and time again to put to death the deeds of the body... (See Romans 8:13).
You wrote, "Jesus said that He knows who are His and that He cannot lose us."
You are taking this passage out of context...
If you will let the Bible interpret itself, you would see that in John 18:8-9, Jesus said, "8 I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."
He lost none of His disciples when the Jews took Him to be crucified...
You wrote, "You teach a works earns you salvation theology that simply does not jive with the true God of the Bible."
Faith, again you are mistaken... I do not teach nor do I advocate a "works earns you salvation theology"... We cannot earn our salvation.... God does expect us to obey His commandments, and obedience to His commandments is what keeps us saved... We don't obey in order to "earn" our salvation, we do the things that God commands because "We love Him because He first loved us" as stated in 1 John 4:19... Even after all that we do in obedience to God's commandments, we have nothing to boast about for it is written in Luke 17:10, "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.'"
As shown above, the statement you made that I "teach a works earns you salvation theology" is false...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 26, 2005.
The problem is, though, Kevin, is that some people cannot grasp faith AND works. Their minds just cannot comprehend two simultaneous ideas at once. It's a phenomenon!
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 26, 2005.
No Gail,You are wrong.
We must confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord, and that we are not perfect as He is perfect. We must confess that we are sinners worthy of death. We must repent--which means to turn away from the flesh, and turn towards God, desiring Him.
Before this, we are living in rejection of Him under that one sin.
This is what it means to be born-again--to receive Christ. We are being buried with Christ in His death--and raised to new life in Christ. In Him we are forgiven the debt-the penalty of that one sin, which is death. Christ died for us in our place so that we can live eternally with Him.
When we do this we are found pleasing to God. Apart from Him, we cannot please God.
Rejection of Him manifests itself in sinful behavior according to the sin nature we received at the fall.
Repenting means to turn away from the sin nature and to receive God. It doesn't have anything to do with individual "sins." Those are just the results of a life apart from God.
We need to be forgiven our *sin*.., not sins.....
Our sin is rejection of God through disobedience, the disobedience of one man named Adam. This is original *sin* We all fall short of God's perfect standard as a result of this one sin...inherent in us all.
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 26, 2005.
Oh sorry--this post above is meant for Kevin, not Gail.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 26, 2005.
Gail,Exactly...
Faith,
You wrote, "You are wrong."
It is your continuing assertion that I am "wrong" however, I have proven through God's word at every point that I am right and you really don't know what you are talking about Faith...
You wrote, "We must confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord, and that we are not perfect as He is perfect. We must confess that we are sinners worthy of death. We must repent--which means to turn away from the flesh, and turn towards God, desiring Him."
Ok, this does not mean that once we do these things in order to be initially saved from our sins that we will continue to be without sin for the rest of our mortal lives and I challenge you to show where this is the case in the Bible... Where are your passages that prove this assumption of yours Faith???
You wrote, "Before this, we are living in rejection of Him under that one sin."
There you go with "we are living in rejection of Him under that one sin" that is nowhere to be found in the Bible... You do a whole lot of assuming Faith and your attempts at trying to prove your doctrine are not found in God's word... Don't you realize that you do not have any passages at all to back up your assumptions??? Where does it state in the Bible that we are to "repent of that one sin" so that we can be saved and then God will wash away all of our sins??? Sorry, it just isn't there... Are you sure that you just didn't write it in your Bible and assume that it is what God said because I cannot find this passage in mine...
You wrote, "This is what it means to be born-again--to receive Christ. We are being buried with Christ in His death--and raised to new life in Christ. In Him we are forgiven the debt-the penalty of that one sin, which is death. Christ died for us in our place so that we can live eternally with Him."
Where is your proof that once we are initially saved from that "one sin" as you call it, that we are "forever" forgiven of any past, present or future sins??? I will be anxiously awaiting your reply...
You wrote, "When we do this we are found pleasing to God. Apart from Him, we cannot please God."
Do you continue to fail to notice your lack of scriptural proof for your objections Faith???
You wrote, "Rejection of Him manifests itself in sinful behavior according to the sin nature we received at the fall."
Once one goes down the slippery slope of false doctrine, there is no telling where they will end up... Where will this false doctrine end up???
You wrote, "Repenting means to turn away from the sin nature and to receive God. It doesn't have anything to do with individual "sins." Those are just the results of a life apart from God."
Repentance means that one must turn away from "all" of their sins... Not just the "one sin" that you advocate... You will not find your "one sin" doctrine in the Bible...
You wrote, "We need to be forgiven our *sin*.., not sins....."
Again this false doctrine is not found in God's word... Go back and re-read Luke 24:47... Does Jesus state that remission of "sin" would be preached or remission of "sins"??? Compare this passage with what Peter actually preached in Acts 2:38 when he stated, "...remission of sins"... This most certainly is plural, not singular as you falsely assert...
You wrote, "Our sin is rejection of God through disobedience, the disobedience of one man named Adam. This is original *sin* We all fall short of God's perfect standard as a result of this one sin...inherent in us all."
The original sin of Adam is not passed down to anyone Faith... If you believe this, then you must be Calvinist... I thought that you were not a Calvinist??? Maybe I was mistaken...
By the way, Romans 5:18-19 does not help you for the one trespass committed by Adam caused us to all "die", it doesn't mean that we are all born sinners... If this is true, then the Catholic position would be correct that infants would need to be baptized to wash away original sin... This is not true because one cannot come to God without faith and an infant is incapable of having faith in God or obeying the gospel of Christ... (See Hebrews 11:6).
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 27, 2005.
Why do you think that the Catholics baptise infants Kevin? It is because they believe that if the baby dies before hand, that it would go to hell because it is stained with original sin.But this sin is only washed away by the blood of Jesus through faith.
The Kingdom of heaven belongs to these children anyway, they are unable to receive Christ by faith, so baptising them is useless.
Original sin is the sin that Jesus atones for...because that is God's dcree......only death will pay the debt owed for that one tresspass....
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 27, 2005.
Kevin said "Do you continue to fail to notice your lack of scriptural proof for your objections Faith???"I certainly noticed that, Kevin. She has none, so she falls back on old-faithful, "attack the Catholic Church" Yeah, that's the ticket, fire up the conversation in another direction Faith. That's a common "ploy" of your's when the ride gets too rough.
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 28, 2005.
BTW, Faith, you will NEVER win an argument against Kevin when the basis is SCRIPTURE. NO HOW, NO WAY!
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 28, 2005.
Win an argument? Is that what you are here to do Gail, win an argument? Lol!!I have never won an argument here...not ever!! No one ever wins.
You are here for the wrong reason if that is why you come here and what you are worried about.
No one here is a better advocate for the Scriptures, for God's truth than me, Gail. I adhere to the Scriptures faithfully..no one is more faithful than me..and this includes Kevin, dear.
Kevin is so wrong about so many of his beliefs that he cannot possibly be listening to his heart or the Holy Spirit for that matter. He misses the deeper meaning in God's Word by parroting out it's content without any life to it.
It is my opinion that only if you have the Spirit in you, can you rightly discern the Word.
It does not surprise me that you side with Kevin, or Elpidio or anyone else for that matter. They can't all be right. So the fact that you could find yourself in harmony--ever--with any of them, tells me what I already knew about Catholicism.
I quoted the perfect Scripture to support my understanding that it is original sin that Christ has come to pay for. The two of you could disagree all you want, it only affirms for me that I am likely in the perfect place--spiritually speaking, that is : )
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 28, 2005.
Faith wrote, "Why do you think that the Catholics baptise infants Kevin? It is because they believe that if the baby dies before hand, that it would go to hell because it is stained with original sin. But this sin is only washed away by the blood of Jesus through faith."I know why Catholics baptize infants Faith, you do not have to re- iterate the obvious...
You wrote, "The Kingdom of heaven belongs to these children anyway, they are unable to receive Christ by faith, so baptising them is useless."
To which I agree... There is no such thing as "original sin" and you complain about the Catholics getting it wrong in baptizing infants but yet you turn around and use the same "original sin" and claim that this is why Jesus came to this earth was to cleanse us from this sin... The Bible never states that Jesus "only" came to wash away this "one sin" as you falsely claim... Did Jesus really only die for "one sin" or did He die for all of our sins???
God says in Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many." Not the "one" as you falsely assert...
You wrote, "Original sin is the sin that Jesus atones for...because that is God's dcree......only death will pay the debt owed for that one tresspass...."
Again, I have shown you in one passage above that you don't know what you are talking about... Because of Adam's sin, he caused all of us to die which is the only consequence we have from this sin... We all die because Adam sinned, and when he committed that one sin, then sin entered the world... The passage you quoted does not say that Jesus came to take away that one sin, Jesus came to take away all of our sins, not just the one that Adam committed...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 28, 2005.
Gail,Yes, Faith does make a whole lot of assumptions without any scriptural support... She throws all kinds of accusations against the Catholic Church and then when she is called on it, she backs down... until another convenient time that is...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 28, 2005.
Faith wrote, "I have never won an argument here...not ever!!"With all of your assumptions it is no wonder that you have ever won any arguments...
Faith wrote, "No one here is a better advocate for the Scriptures, for God's truth than me, Gail."
This is not true... You teach a whole lot of things that have "no" scriptural support... You have also been advised of this things at length and it appears that you have your mind made up and no matter what someone else shows you how your view is incorrect you are unwilling to change your beliefs... This makes me wonder why you are even here Faith??? I have repeatedly stated that if someone can show me where I do err, I am willing to change my beliefs... This is something that you most certainly cannot say for you have been shown the error of your beliefs many times over to no avail...
Faith wrote, "I adhere to the Scriptures faithfully..no one is more faithful than me..and this includes Kevin, dear."
This is another assertion that is not true... You can "claim" all you want that you are "more faithful" than "Kevin" however, you have not proven this through the word of God now have you Faith??? You "claim" a great many things however, you are severly lacking in the "proving it" department...
Faith wrote, "Kevin is so wrong about so many of his beliefs that he cannot possibly be listening to his heart or the Holy Spirit for that matter."
Again, you make another fine "assertion" with no proof at all of your wild "claims"... You can claim all day long that I am "wrong about so many" of my beliefs, but you have yet to prove that I am guilty as you have charged and I challenge you to do so...
Faith wrote, "He misses the deeper meaning in God's Word by parroting out it's content without any life to it."
This is yet again another accusation that is not true... You don't understand God's word much less have the ability to say that I "parrot out it's content without any life to it"... So are you now resorting to ad hominem attacks on me because you cannot prove what I say is incorrect??? It most assuredly seems that way... Please explain to everyone here Faith how I am guilty as you say of this accusation???
Faith wrote, "It is my opinion that only if you have the Spirit in you, can you rightly discern the Word."
Your opinion is wrong... How does one get faith??? Does it happen through some external means or is it through the word of God??? The Holy Spirit only dwells in someone through the word of God for this is exactly what scripture teaches and your wild "claim" that one can only discern the word through some external dwelling of the Holy Spirit is false...
Faith wrote, "It does not surprise me that you side with Kevin, or Elpidio or anyone else for that matter. They can't all be right. So the fact that you could find yourself in harmony--ever--with any of them, tells me what I already knew about Catholicism."
You are right Faith, we can't all be right and I can assure you that you are far from being correct on a great many things you believe to be true... If my beliefs are not correct, then I would like to suggest to you that you get busy in correcting them... I have done my best to show you the error of your beliefs and you have rejected what has been plainly revealed in God's word...
Faith wrote, "I quoted the perfect Scripture to support my understanding that it is original sin that Christ has come to pay for."
Yea, you quoted scripture and took it out of context to try to prove your "claim" that Jesus only came to take away "one" "original sin" and that is not what this passage states at all... You claim that Catholics twist scripture but you sure did a good job of tossing and turning over this passage didn't you Faith???
Faith wrote, "The two of you could disagree all you want, it only affirms for me that I am likely in the perfect place--spiritually speaking, that is : )"
This is another one of your assumptions Faith that you are "in the perfect place" however it is obvious that you have not read your Bible enough or it may be that you choose to believe what someone else has taught you instead of what the Bible actually teaches on any given subject... Your "faith alone" salvation will only take you on the broad road that leads to destruction...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 28, 2005.
Kevin, you are so close--yet you miss something so important.The curse put upon man and all of creation from that one sin is death. Jesus came to pay this for us in His death., that we might live.
The curse and the price are all about that one tresspass....to which I agree sin then entered the world. But the curse is set because of the one tresspass, that one tresspass that causes us all to sin.
When Christ paid that debt for us--in our place, he set us free...not only from the penalty of that one tresspass, but also from the power of sin. If we have received Him as our Savior, then we don't have to pay the debt because His death atones for us--even though we may still sin. The truth is, if we have truly experience rebirth--we won't want to sin and we will be repentant in all our mistakes--just because we are in Him and have the conviction of the Holy Spirit in us.....how could we go on sinning as though we were still of the world??
Good luck if you think that Christ's sacrifice was that wishy-washy that you could lose your life in Him if you make one mistake. That just sounds so Catholic to me.....
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 28, 2005.
Kevin,You say:
With all of your assumptions it is no wonder that you have ever won any arguments...
You have to see that you assume just as much as any of us--however, you do so without the guidance of the Spirit--this much is obvious...
Faith wrote, "No one here is a better advocate for the Scriptures, for God's truth than me, Gail."
This is not true... You teach a whole lot of things that have "no" scriptural support... You have also been advised of this things at length and it appears that you have your mind made up and no matter what someone else shows you how your view is incorrect you are unwilling to change your beliefs... This makes me wonder why you are even here Faith??? I have repeatedly stated that if someone can show me where I do err, I am willing to change my beliefs... This is something that you most certainly cannot say for you have been shown the error of your beliefs many times over to no avail...
I am here to shine a light in a dark place. I am certainly not here to be led astray---sorry to disappoint you, but it can't happen.
Faith wrote, "I adhere to the Scriptures faithfully..no one is more faithful than me..and this includes Kevin, dear."
This is another assertion that is not true... You can "claim" all you want that you are "more faithful" than "Kevin" however
Gee Kevin--is that what I said? Maybe this is the perfect opportunity to point out your bad comprehension skills?
you have not proven this through the word of God now have you Faith??? You "claim" a great many things however, you are severly lacking in the "proving it" department...
Well that is a matter of opinion Kevin. Certainly I offer plenty of Scripture to support my assertions. You simply don't see it the way I do. That doesn't mean you are right, though.
Faith wrote, "Kevin is so wrong about so many of his beliefs that he cannot possibly be listening to his heart or the Holy Spirit for that matter."
Again, you make another fine "assertion" with no proof at all of your wild "claims"... You can claim all day long that I am "wrong about so many" of my beliefs, but you have yet to prove that I am guilty as you have charged and I challenge you to do so...
What do you think I have been trying to do Kevin? Do you think I am here to just shoot the breeze and waste my time? I have tried diligently to show you your error, but you refuse to see it.
Faith wrote, "He misses the deeper meaning in God's Word by parroting out it's content without any life to it."
This is yet again another accusation that is not true... You don't understand God's word much less have the ability to say that I "parrot out it's content without any life to it"... So are you now resorting to ad hominem attacks on me because you cannot prove what I say is incorrect???
No, that's Gails style, rod's too. It amazes me how stale you "read" the Scriptures.
It most assuredly seems that way... Please explain to everyone here Faith how I am guilty as you say of this accusation???
Because Kevin--you miss the deeper meaning to the words. UI am surprised you don't believe in Transubstantiation since you are such a proponent of Scriptures exact words. Let's face it--jesus does say that we must eat Him to be saved. Those are His plain words...and you really like to listen to exact words, right? You are always saying, "It plainly states this and that" blah, blah , dull.
Faith wrote, "It is my opinion that only if you have the Spirit in you, can you rightly discern the Word."
Your opinion is wrong... How does one get faith??? Does it happen through some external means or is it through the word of God??? The Holy Spirit only dwells in someone through the word of God for this is exactly what scripture teaches and your wild "claim" that one can only discern the word through some external dwelling of the Holy Spirit is false...
Wow!! You totally misrepresent what I claim. Maybe it's that comprehension thing again? The Word of God is Jesus by the way...faith comes to those who hear the gospel message which is the good news/Jesus Christ.
Faith wrote, "It does not surprise me that you side with Kevin, or Elpidio or anyone else for that matter. They can't all be right. So the fact that you could find yourself in harmony--ever--with any of them, tells me what I already knew about Catholicism."
You are right Faith, we can't all be right and I can assure you that you are far from being correct on a great many things you believe to be true... If my beliefs are not correct, then I would like to suggest to you that you get busy in correcting them... I have done my best to show you the error of your beliefs and you have rejected what has been plainly revealed in God's word...
There you go again with that "plainly" revealed. Well Kevin, my understanding goes deeper that what is plain.
Faith wrote, "I quoted the perfect Scripture to support my understanding that it is original sin that Christ has come to pay for."
Yea, you quoted scripture and took it out of context to try to prove your "claim" that Jesus only came to take away "one" "original sin" and that is not what this passage states at all... You claim that Catholics twist scripture but you sure did a good job of tossing and turning over this passage didn't you Faith???
No twisting on my part Kevin--in those words, seek the plain meaning.
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
This is another one of your assumptions Faith that you are "in the perfect place" however it is obvious that you have not read your Bible enough or it may be that you choose to believe what someone else has taught you instead of what the Bible actually teaches on any given subject... Your "faith alone" salvation will only take you on the broad road that leads to destruction...
Maybe the whole trouble for you Kevin is that you read the Scriptures.
Have you ever studied them?
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 28, 2005.
Faith, at first I thought since you are just a new believer, maybe that is where some of your immaturity comes from. Then it became quite apparent that there is actually a flaw in your character so deep that you cannot even tell that stealing the work of others is a sin. That uncertainty that you have concerning moral issues spills over into every single debate you try to carry out. There is no right or wrong, there is no consistency in your logic, everything is subjective based on whims and fanciful spiritual "feelings". Your theology is as flawed as your inability to know right from wrong.Now, I am beginning to wonder if your problem isn't on a much much deeper spiritual level and/or psychiatric disorder.
The times that you have bragged on yourself in the above posts are repulsive. For some reason it is necessary for you to "puff yourself up" in your own mind, making yourself out to be quite a lot more than you really are. Self-grandisement is what it is called and it is abhorent to the Spirit of God.
I truly hope that you get some help, either from a pastor or a doctor, or a friend.
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 28, 2005.
I am sorry if my confidence repulses you Gail. And I am hardly a new believer.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 28, 2005.
Faith,You wrote, "Kevin, you are so close--yet you miss something so important. The curse put upon man and all of creation from that one sin is death. Jesus came to pay this for us in His death., that we might live."
Yes Faith, I know this to be true and I have not said anything different... You on the other hand claim that Jesus "only" came to this earth to cleanse us of this "one sin" and that is not what the Bible teaches...
Faith wrote, "The curse and the price are all about that one tresspass....to which I agree sin then entered the world. But the curse is set because of the one tresspass, that one tresspass that causes us all to sin."
This still brings us back to your erroneous view that Jesus only came to this earth to die for that "one sin" which you claim is the "original sin" of Adam...
You wrote, "When Christ paid that debt for us--in our place, he set us free...not only from the penalty of that one tresspass, but also from the power of sin. If we have received Him as our Savior, then we don't have to pay the debt because His death atones for us--even though we may still sin. The truth is, if we have truly experience rebirth--we won't want to sin and we will be repentant in all our mistakes--just because we are in Him and have the conviction of the Holy Spirit in us.....how could we go on sinning as though we were still of the world??"
If Christians sin after they have initially had their sins washed away, then your contention "how could we go on sinning as though we were still of the world" is false... The truth of the matter is that even though a Christian has had his/her past sins washed away by their obedience to the gospel of Christ by being baptized in water into His death wherein His cleansing blood was shed that one will still sin even after their obedience... Just because one is a Christian does not mean that "all" of their sins that they will ever commit are already "washed away" otherwise why would one even seek to grow as a Christian and add what God commanded thru Peter that we add in 2 Peter 1:5-11...
You wrote, "Good luck if you think that Christ's sacrifice was that wishy-washy that you could lose your life in Him if you make one mistake. That just sounds so Catholic to me....."
Well it may sound "Catholic" to you Faith however it is obvious that you have not read your Bible well enough... Was one "mistake" enough to kill Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11 or how about the one "mistake" that Judas made when he was guilty of shedding innocent blood and went and killed himself??? (See Acts 1:25). How "wishy washy" was their one sin??? Was that "one sin" enough to cause them to lose their salvation??? Yes, it most certainly was so your assertion that Christ's sacrifice is "wishy washy" for believing that one sin can cause one to lose their salvation is false...
Do you not know that unless we continue in the goodness of God that He will "cut us off"??? (See Romans 11:19-22).
Again this shows your ignorance of God's word on even the most basic of subjects...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 28, 2005.
The Word tells us to confess our sins and he is faithful to forgive us our sins. Why would we need to do that if future sins were already forgiven?What is "whishy washey" is to take the blood of the Savior for granted, and hence "trample the Son of God yet again, making a public display of Him openly." THAT is what is whishy-washy, the once-saved- always-saved, "I can sin if I do it behind a pseudonym" mentality.
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 28, 2005.
Faith,You wrote, "You have to see that you assume just as much as any of us--however, you do so without the guidance of the Spirit--this much is obvious..."
Sorry Faith, I don't assume, if I make assumptions, I make a point to prove them whereas you on the other hand do nothing of the sort... Your wild claim that you are guided by the "Spirit" is laughable at best and sad that you have been "blinded by the god of this age". (See 2 Cor. 4:1-4).
If you were truly guided by some outside influence that you call "the Spirit" then you most certainly would not be throwing out all of these accusations without any proof... And yes you are severly lacking in this department...
You wrote, "I am here to shine a light in a dark place. I am certainly not here to be led astray---sorry to disappoint you, but it can't happen."
It is obvious that you are not here to be "led astray" for you are unwilling to even consider what the scriptures actually state... The scriptures have this to say about you Faith and it is in Matthew 7:2- 5, "2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye."
You wrote, "Gee Kevin--is that what I said? Maybe this is the perfect opportunity to point out your bad comprehension skills?"
No Faith, I don't have any problem comprehending what you wrote, here it is again for you since it is obvious that you have a hard time remembering what you wrote, "no one is more faithful than me..and this includes Kevin, dear."
Why is it that false teachers always have a hard time remembering certain things??? Hmmmmm....
I wrote, "You "claim" a great many things however, you are severly lacking in the "proving it" department..."
To which you replied, "Well that is a matter of opinion Kevin. Certainly I offer plenty of Scripture to support my assertions. You simply don't see it the way I do. That doesn't mean you are right, though."
When I show you the scriptures that clearly show that you are wrong in your beliefs, instead of saying that you are right and I was misinformed, you just dismiss them without even bothering to offer any rebuttal... This tactic of yours does not surprise me in the least...
You wrote, "What do you think I have been trying to do Kevin? Do you think I am here to just shoot the breeze and waste my time? I have tried diligently to show you your error, but you refuse to see it."
If I was the one in error, I can assure you that I would change my beliefs to conform with yours... Obviously you are the one who is unwilling to see your "error"... I have pointed out to you many times that you are wrong and you still spout the same thing over and over and over and over and over...
You wrote, "No, that's Gails style, rod's too. It amazes me how stale you "read" the Scriptures."
How can someone read the scriptures "stale"??? This does not make any logical sense at all... Is this some newfangled word that you are looking to have placed in the dictionary Faith??? It is not hard to understand God's word and you don't need any outside influence other than God's word to understand them...
You wrote, "Because Kevin--you miss the deeper meaning to the words. UI am surprised you don't believe in Transubstantiation since you are such a proponent of Scriptures exact words."
I never stated that I believe that "everything" is literal that is stated in God's word now have I Faith??? Transubstantiation is a doctrine that is foreign to the Bible...
You wrote, "Let's face it--jesus does say that we must eat Him to be saved. Those are His plain words...and you really like to listen to exact words, right? You are always saying, "It plainly states this and that" blah, blah , dull."
Just because I "plainly state" does not mean that I take everything "literally" in the Bible... Is this all that you can throw out at me that because I say "it plainly states" that this is "dull"??? If this is the best you can do to try to show that my interpretation of scripture is incorrect then I would like to suggest to you that you keep trying as this line of reasoning on your part is not working...
I wrote, "Your opinion is wrong... How does one get faith??? Does it happen through some external means or is it through the word of God??? The Holy Spirit only dwells in someone through the word of God for this is exactly what scripture teaches and your wild "claim" that one can only discern the word through some external dwelling of the Holy Spirit is false..."
To which you replied, "Wow!! You totally misrepresent what I claim. Maybe it's that comprehension thing again?"
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Christian outside of the word of God??? Yes or No... If you believe that the Holy Spirit indwells the Christian outside of the word of God then I am correct...
You wrote, "The Word of God is Jesus by the way...faith comes to those who hear the gospel message which is the good news/Jesus Christ."
Yes the word of God is Jesus however, the word of God is also contained in the Bible... Does one get faith from somewhere outside of the Bible which is God's word??? Yes or No??? If No, then please explain how this is possible??? The very words that Jesus spoke were "...spirit and they are life..." (John 6:63). It is through the word of God (the Bible) that one is born again. (See 1 Peter 1:23).
You wrote, "There you go again with that "plainly" revealed. Well Kevin, my understanding goes deeper that what is plain."
Unfortunately for you this "understanding" is outside of what the Bible has reavealed as truth... Isn't this what the Gnostics were guilty of "special knowledge"???
You wrote, "No twisting on my part Kevin--in those words, seek the plain meaning."
There is a "plain meaning"... I can assure you that it is not the one that you promote...
You wrote, "Maybe the whole trouble for you Kevin is that you read the Scriptures."
Your problem is that you don't read them...
You wrote, "Have you ever studied them?"
Yes I do study the scriptures for we are commanded to do this very thing... (See 2 Timothy 2:15).
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 28, 2005.
Gail,You wrote, "The Word tells us to confess our sins and he is faithful to forgive us our sins. Why would we need to do that if future sins were already forgiven?"
You got it... That is what Faith's false doctrine promotes...
You wrote, "What is "whishy washey" is to take the blood of the Savior for granted, and hence "trample the Son of God yet again, making a public display of Him openly." THAT is what is whishy- washy, the once-saved- always-saved, "I can sin if I do it behind a pseudonym" mentality."
Exactly... There is no such thing as "once saved always saved"...
This doctrine is completely foreign to New Testament teaching...
"The LORD will judge His people." (Hebrews 10:30).
"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:31).
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 28, 2005.
Does the Scripture you are refering to say that this forgiveness is unto salvation though? The way I understand Scripture it is only one sin that we must have washed away--that is original sin--and that after that, we are saved, covered in His blood--even sins we might commit after the fact, are covered!Romans 4:4-8
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 29, 2005.
Faith,You wrote, "Does the Scripture you are refering to say that this forgiveness is unto salvation though?"
Please notice that it is "unto salvation" which means that when one is forgiven it looks forward to the day of salvation and not their actual salvation at that moment in time...
You wrote, "The way I understand Scripture it is only one sin that we must have washed away--that is original sin--and that after that, we are saved, covered in His blood"
The Bible "never" states that Jesus "only" came to cleanse us of our "original sin"... This must be a doctrine that you carried with you when you left the Catholic Church for this doctrine is not taught in God's word...
When Jesus sat at the table during the Last Supper did He tell the disciples that He would cleanse them of their "sin"??? No, this is what He told them in Matthew 26:28, "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
Jesus also told His disciples in Luke 24:47, "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."
This very thing happened when Peter preached his gospel sermon on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38... Did Peter tell the Jews to "wash away your sin" or did he tell them to "wash away your sins"??? There is a big difference between what the Bible actually states and what you believe to be true...
You wrote, "--even sins we might commit after the fact, are covered!"
Our sins that we commit after we have had our initial "sins" forgiven are not cleansed unless we confess them and turn from them... (See 1 John 1:9). If we do not confess them, He is not obligated to forgive them for it is written in the very next verse (10), "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
You quoted Romans 4:4-8 however this does not help you one bit... Paul was talking about the Jews and their attempt at being justified by the "works" of the Law of Moses, not "works" of obedience which we are required to perform if we are to first have our sins washed away and then remain faithful until we die...
How did God know that Abraham "believed God"??? (Romans 4:3).
The answer is found in James 2:21-23, "21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Abraham's "works" were works of obedience, not of the Law of Moses... You misunderstand the different kinds of "works" that are spoken of in the New Testament...
Do you believe that we must keep God's commandments???
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 29, 2005.
I believe that we cannot keep God's commandments no matter how hard we try to be perfect--it is impossible. Only Jesus was perfect. That is why He was able to pay our debt for us--only perfection can enter heaven--so we get in, because He covers us.
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 29, 2005.
"I believe that we cannot keep God's commandments no matter how hard we try to be perfect--it is impossible. Only Jesus was perfect. That is why He was able to pay our debt for us--only perfection can enter heaven--so we get in, because He covers us."\Did Jesus give us a command that we are not able to keep when He said in John 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."???
We humans "can" keep God's commandments otherwise Jesus would not have made that statement...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 31, 2005.
Yes Kevin, Jesus did give us impossible to keep commands. These commands are what make it possible for us to enter heaven on our own accord--that is--if we could keep them. The Law, however, never saved anyone because it is impossible for us to do it. But this is precisely the point trying to be made. The Law reveals to us--our need for a Savior. If we could keep the law--then we wouldn't need a Savior, would we?The only purpose for the Law was to convict us of the fact that we are sinners....
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 31, 2005.
Faith,You wrote, "Yes Kevin, Jesus did give us impossible to keep commands."
Really??? Which commands are they that are impossible to keep??? Please list them for us Faith...
You wrote, "These commands are what make it possible for us to enter heaven on our own accord--that is--if we could keep them."
Which commands are these that cause us to "enter heaven on our own accord"??? Please list these also while you are at it...
You wrote, "The Law, however, never saved anyone because it is impossible for us to do it."
We are not under the Law of Moses... So what is your point??? This law was nailed to the cross... (See Colossians 2:14).
You wrote, "But this is precisely the point trying to be made. The Law reveals to us--our need for a Savior. If we could keep the law-- then we wouldn't need a Savior, would we?"
We are under Law, just not under the Law of Moses... (See James 2:12). Since this is the case, please explain to us which commands under the New Testament that are not under the Law of Moses are "impossible" for us to keep???
You wrote, "The only purpose for the Law was to convict us of the fact that we are sinners...."
The purpose of the Law is as stated in Romans 5:20, "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound."
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 31, 2005.
James 5:19-20 My brethren, (PAUL is addressing brothers) if any among you (within this body of believers) strays from the truth (wanders away from the path of righteousness) and one turns him back (gets him back on the right track), let him know that he who turns a sinner (this fallen away brother) from the error of his way (that wrong path he decided to take) will save his soul from death (will keep this bro from the eternal flames) and will cover a multitude of sins.
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 31, 2005.
Gail,That is only one verse that can be used against these OSAS teachers... Those who believe in OSAS deny scriptures that state that a Christian can be lost...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 31, 2005.
I think that Jesus' commands were being given to Jews in hopes that they would see that they were lost apart from God and that they needed a Savior and that that Savior was Jesus Himself.
Here is a perfect analogy of what Jesus was really teaching:
The good news.....author unknown--worth the read...
The Beatitudes represent only the first step toward understanding the Sermon on the Mount. Long after I came to understand the the truth of the Beatitudes, I found myself still pondering over the harshness of the rest of Jesus' sermon.
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect," Jesus said, His statement tucked casually between commands to love our enemy and give away everything we own.
Be perfect like God? What could He possibly mean? What does the Bible say about who is good? It says that no one is good--except God, of course.
When a rich man asked Jesus what he should do to ensure eternal life-- Jesus told him to give his money away! Not 10% mind you, or 50% even-- but all of it.
When a disciple asked if he should forgive his brother seven times-- Jesus replied that he should forgive him him seventy-seven times. Jesus taught the Golden rule as follows: "In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you."
Has anyone ever lived a life as perfect as God? Has anyone ever followed the Golden Rule perfectly? How can we respond to such impossible ideas?
A friend of mine once said that he did not like the "Sermon on the Mount". He complained that it was not easy to read and made him feel like he had to be perfect. "To simply look at a woman lustfully is adultery? Absurd!" he proclaimed.
Jesus said..Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you... It is easy to love your own brother, to love those who love you, even tax collectors do that! You want me to congratulate you for loving your own? No, Jesus said., "Love your enemy!"
Love the man who would kick you and spit on you. Love the soldier who would drive a sword through your belly. Love the man who robs and tortures you. Listen to me.."Love your enemy!!"
The Sermon on the Mount did not simply puzzle the people of his day. This unwelcomed advice infuriated them!
Jesus' listeners worried about whether Jesus was a revolutionary rather than an authentic Jewish prophet.
Jesus responded to that by saying, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them...
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (this is a key, in my opinion)
That last statement surely made the crowd sit up and take notice. How could their righteousness surpass that of the religious leaders of their day?
Pharisees and teachers of the law competed with one another in strictness. They had atomized God's law into 613 rules-- 248 commands and 365 prohibitions!!
And--they bolstered these rules with 1,521 emendations. To avoid breaking the third commandment, "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord," they refused to pronounce God's name at all!
To avoid sexual temptation, they had practiced walking with their heads down and not looking at women. The most scrupulous of these were known as "bleeding Pharisees" because of their frequent collisions with walls and other things.
To avoid defiling the Sabbath, they outlawed 39 activities that might be considered work. How could an ordinary person's righteousness ever surpass that of such *professional* holy men?
Using the Torah as His starting point, Jesus pushed the law in the same direction, but further than any Pharisee had ever dared to push it..further than any monk ever dared to live it. Jesus made the Law impossible for anyone to keep and then charged us to keep it!
"I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement....anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Can any two brothers weather the storms of adolescence without relying on words such as "supid" or "fool"?
"I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
Finally--Jesus even spells out the principles for non-violence. Who could even survive with the rules Jesus laid down?
"Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well."
I think about all these commands and I ask myself how I should respond? Does Jesus really expect me to give all I have to every panhandler who crosses my path?
Should I abandon all insistence on consumer rights? Should I cancel my insurance policies and trust God for the future? Should I give everything I have to the poor--keeping only the clothes on my back?
How can I possibly translate such ethical ideas into my everyday life?
In his response to the rich young ruler in the parable of the Good Samaritan, in his comments about divorce, money, or any other moral issue...Jesus never lowered God's ideal...
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" he said. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."
No one has ever completely fulfilled those commands..not Francis of Assisi, not Mother Teresa, not anyone!
There is only one way for any of us to resolve the tension between the high ideals of the gospel and the grim reality of ourselves.
We need to accept that we can never measure up. That is ultimately what the message of the gospel is. The "good news" is, that we don't have to. The gospel (good news) message is that we are judged by the righteousness of Christ who lives within us the moment we receive him.
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the Law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering." (Romans 8:1-3)
Jesus, who never lowered God's ideal is also the same Jesus who tenderly offered absolute grace. Jesus forgave an adulteress, a thief on a cross and a disciple who had denied knowing him.
It extends even to the people who nailed Jesus to the cross... "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing."
When it comes to the Sermon on the Mount--I can see that Jesus gave us these words not to cumber us, but to tell us what God is like-- perfect.
Jesus did not proclaim the Sermon on the Mount so that we would despair over our failure to acheive perfection. He gave it to impart to us--God's Ideal toward which we should never stop striving, but also to show us that none of us will ever reach that ideal.
The Sermon on the Mount forces us to recognize the great distance between God and us.., and any attempt to somehow *moderate* its demands--misses the point altogether!
The worst tragedy would be to turn the Sermon on the Mount into another form of legalism; it should rather put an end to legalism.
Legalism like the Pharisees' will always fail., not because it is too strict--but because it isn't strict enough.
The Sermon on the Mount proves that before God, we all stand on equal ground. Murderers and temper-throwers, adulterers and lusters, thieves and coveters. We are all desperate, and we have all indeed fallen from God's absolute Ideal.
We have nowhere to land but inside the safety net of grace--God's grace. Jesus Christ is our salvation... a gift from God--by His grace..."perfection" offered--up, in our place.
"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.." (Romans 10:4)
-- (faith01@myway.com), January 31, 2005.
Faith,Your post has been answered in the following thread:
how are the protestant so sure that the bible is true? 2
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 01, 2005.