.S. School District Defends Evolution Teaching Plan

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A Pennsylvania school district on Wednesday rejected charges that plans to include references to an alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution in high school biology classes would be illegal.

The Dover Area School District near Harrisburg is the first in the United States to introduce "Intelligent Design," a theory that the natural world is so complex it must have been made by an intelligent being, rather than occurring by chance, as held by Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

The district was sued by the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) and Americans United for Separation of Church and State on Dec. 14 over plans to teach the theory starting next week. The lawsuit is the first to challenge the teaching of Intelligent Design, which the groups say violates the Constitutional separation of church and state.

The civil rights groups argued that "Intelligent Design" is a thinly veiled version of creationism -- the belief that the earth was made by God. The U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled in the 1980s that teaching creationism in public schools would violate the constitutional separation of church and state.

The school district said in Wednesday's court filing that its "biology curriculum policy does not advance religion." Instead, it informs "students about the existing scientific controversy surrounding Darwin's Theory of Evolution."

Christian conservatives, who played an important role in the re-election of President Bush (news - web sites), have been pressing for decades for creationism to be taught in schools.
Lawyers for the school board said that neither creationism nor "Intelligent Design" will be taught to students, and that no religious beliefs will be taught.

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i cant belive how these assholes aretrying to sneak religion back into schools/education while stuff like the declaration of indep is banned because of its references to God etc.
But are these the same people who think the world is only 12,000 years old? THose guys should be locked away in the funny farm. Fking morons.
Im not saying i dont belive in a higher power or existence of higer life form/s be they alien or 'God' or whatever. That would be a little arrogant. But to try and shove this belief down peoples throats is a different story. It hasnt worked for the past 2000 years.In fact religion has caused a lot more wars than its prevented,in fact im not sure its ever prevented any.


-- w (windowcleaner@this.net), January 06, 2005

Answers

bump..

-- etc (wc@w.net), January 06, 2005.

The Pope personally interviened and won a peace treaty between Argentinia and Chile. Ditto for the peace treaty between Peru and Ecuador.

As early as the 800's AD the Church promoted peace among the princes and early kingdoms of Europe with the doctrine known as the "Peace of God", which later gave way to the "Truce of God" doctrine that created the first elements of chivalry and international law.

They banned warfare on Sundays, Saturdays, Thursdays and Fridays. They taught that non-combants (women, children, the elderly) and those who sue for peace or lay down their arms HAD to be spared from harm on pain of excommunication.

In the high middle ages from 1000 to 1250, European culture boomed thanks to a generalized atmosphere of peace. The great cathedrals were built then as pilgrims promoted commerce across Europe.

If you look closely you see the bloodshed and "wars of religion" began only after the Bubonic plague wiped out most of the monks, nuns, and kings (the "A" team, varsity players) who came to the need of the sick, and so died themselves. The 4th crusade and many ensuing actions were the result in a rise in immorality, co-opting the Church, not endorsed by it.

In Latin America the Church fought against slavery and repression of Indians - but lost as more and more of the nobles became less and less Catholic.

Even the great wars of the 14th and 16th century were largely political in nature - fought not by Popes and priests but by ambitious princes and emperors trying to carve out bigger political control...

As for numbers... the worst war in terms of numbers lost hit Europe during the age of Napoleon - after the Vatican had been sacked, the pope carted off to France as a prisoner, and most cardinals killed or disbanded... Nothing that happened after 1773 can possibly be laid at the feet of the Catholic Church since it hasn't "controlled" any nation on earth since then.

The Popes have called for peace and offered their meager help in the peace treaties of 1815, 1914, and 1945...but were largely rebuffed by the world powers. But they have won some smaller countries over to peace by being the diplomatic 3rd parties in several small cases.

The Catholic Church isn't to blame for WW1 or 2 or the crimes of the communists - over 200 million people died in the 20th century thanks to god-less atheist regimes... for all the wars fought in the name of religion, the ones fought in the name of "humanity" have wrecked more real damage in terms of people and treasure lost.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), January 06, 2005.

you make some good points there. I notice mostly in favour of the catholic church. But lets be fair they instigated many conflicts also. THe 'crusades' into th emiddle east were nothing more than a land/gold grab. Much like the iraq conflict at the moment. The Jews themselves have also been blamed for many atrocities. Trostky and stalin were jewish and stalin himself made hitler pale into insignifigance with his ganocide of his own people and those of captured territories AFTER the war.

As for Islam, look at the situation today in the middle east and in muslem countries. In fact better still look at the wars waged by the Muslem nations over the centuries. THe Ottoman wars, The Moores, etc etc.

While relion has played a role in bringing peace from time to time, it has often as not brought division and susequent war. And then there is the Inquisition. Save us. What a time to be a free thinker. Then there is Ireland. Though in that case id say religion was used/abused as a means to divide people and turn them on each other so that the english could take control. All the same religion played a major part in theat conflict and still does in many ways.

-- w (windowcleaner@stuff.ect), January 06, 2005.

I gotta say, I think I'm with Joe on this one. Yes, the Catholic Church was pretty messed up in the middle ages. The Crusades, for the most part, were poorly executed and done for the wrong reasons. The Inquisition was wrong, and the Church has formaly apologized. But for all of recent history the Church has made every effort to prevent war and, at the risk of sounding like a hippy, give peace a chance. Hell, the Pope, a person generaly associated with conservatism, publicly opposed the war.

And the Church certainly shouldn't take the blame for Northern Ireland. They aren't encouraging the fighting. No, the real people to blame are the English (I may speak with a slight bias here being of Irish heritage...possible rant ahead). What would you do if foreign troops were still occupying part of your country? That's right, you'd grab a gun and kill those mother fuckers! The Irish have been stomped on and oppressed by the Limeys for five hundred years; now when they start fighting back, it's called terrorism. Bullshit. Terrorism is a calculated and deliberate campaign of violence against unnarmed civilians with the purpose of intimidating them. How come nobody called Oliver Cromwell a terrorist? No, as far as the English are concerned, his beggest crime was overthrowing the monarchy, not slaughtering countless Irish men, women, and children. The IRA's action (for the most part) is directed against government and military targets. I'll admit that some regrettable incidents have occured where civilians were killed or injured. It's usualy unintentional, but there have been cases of deliberate attacks (although usualy by splinter groups and not the mainstream movement). But historicaly, the IRA has been more responsible in avoiding civilian deaths whenever possible than the British military and police forces deployed against them. The IRA certainly isn't dropping NAPALM on civilians, unlike a certain leader of the free world I can name...

In short, the English need to get the fuck out of Ireland. Period. This conflict is their fault, not the Catholic Church's.

Anyway, I totaly agree with you on the creationism bullshit, W. It didn't happen. Despite what scientific-sounding language you dress it up with, you simply can't scientificaly teach kids that God snapped his fingers and created the Earth in seven days. And I know people always say "well evolution is just a theory", and they are right. What with access to time machines being very limited nowadays, no one can go back and actualy document the first single-celled organism eventualy becoming Homo sapiens, but we've got the fossil record to prove that it DID happen more or less like that. It's common knowledge that organisms will evolve; we've seen organisms evolve and adapt even in the last hundred years.

That said, what scientific evidence is there that everything was just sort of magicaly created by God? None. There's no textbook that could actualy present the case for creationism scientificaly, without simply feeding them the Christian dogma, because that's all it is: dogma. It's not science, and our tax dollars should not be used to teach it.

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), January 06, 2005.

Anti bush you are talking out of your arse, the IRA routinely killed civilians including policemen, religious leaders and the general population. They are terrorists pure and simple and are involved in a whole host of activities from drug dealing and prostitution to as we have seen recently armed robbery. I think it’s unbelievably hypocritical of some Americans to bang on and on about terrorism when they not only sympathise with terrorists in another country but also are responsible for a significant amount of it’s funding. If you do that how can you expect anybody else to be sympathetic when terrorists kill your citizens? I don’t know how you get the idea that the security services kill more civilians that the IRA but I'm sure that the families of those servicemen killed in northern Ireland would find that statement offensive in the extreme. The majority of Northern Ireland citizens want to be part of Britain, Should the security services leave and allow a violent minority murder whoever they please?

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 07, 2005.

The Crusades are not taught in American public education - or in most Universities with anything like accuracy so I'm not flaming you guys for your misunderstandings.

I wrote thousands of words on this over on the Catholic forum so this is a small recap: Since at least the 800's Western Catholics had the habit of going on pilgrimages as part of their piety and personal quest for conversion. Think of it as AA or something. If you really screwed up and wanted to change, you went on a pilgrimage to some holy site. Since it took months or years, this meant a complete change of routine and the formation of new habits - prayer, sacrifice, etc.

Pilgrimages were totally peaceful endeavors. Going to the holiest of places, Jerusalemn was thus the favorite place for Christians. And even though the city was taken by Muslims in the 600's, Christians were allowed to go there unmolested for centuries....until about 950 or so when the Turkish Muslims took over control of the area from a more peaceful bunch.

They were the ones who broke the truce with the Byzantine Empire and started war.

They also started persecuting, robbing, raping, and killing unarmed pilgrims. In time enough of the survivors returned to Europe with their horror stories that the European Christians were shocked into action.

The first Crusade was the only successful one - and it wasn't a land grab. It was called for in 1096. No Kingdom in Europe set up shop in Palestine. Nobles led the way, but they fought to open the holy places to pilgrims, not kill Muslims for being Muslim.

They liberated much of modern day Turkey, Edessa, but bypassed Beruit and Acre... they ended up in Jerusalem in 1098 and eventually founded a kingdom there as the only government known to them at the time but this kingdom wasn't normal - it was an outpost garrisoned by volunteers, not a colony from Europe.

All the other crusades were launched centuries later with the similar goal of openning up access to the holy places for the sake of pilgrimages.

When the 4th crusade sacked Constantinople instead of going to Jerusalem the pope excommunicated the whole army - and Europe was aghast that the soldiers would break oaths for booty.

None of the Crusades were launched by kingdoms for gold or land - unless you count Spain in the picture, but even there you've got Christians fighting to re-take land taken from them in 711. So while religious people were fighting it was more of a national struggle for survival than a crusade strictly speaking.

Finally let's get some things straight. War is not the worst thing that can happen - it often is the result of evil men running amok and their neighbors finally ganging up to put an end to it.

Sure, most history has had kingdoms populated with people who believe in gods or God, so wars are fought by religious people, but that doesn't make the wars they fight "religious wars" or wars of religion.

When Europe fought against the Mongols in the 12th century they weren't fighting for religion, they were fighting for their survival! The mongols didn't take prisoners!

When Vikings invaded Europe they didn't do so to spread Paganism - they invaded or raided the coastal cities for loot - as a way of life or economic system. Sure, they were pagans fighting against Christians but their religion wasn't what motivated them to hop on the long boats and row to France.

In the Muslim world tribal warfare is most common - Muslims even of the same sect (sunni) fight among themselves. Sure they will call on God and describe the conflict in religious ways, but when you boil all the rhetoric down it comes to men being ambitious or tribal disputes settled with swords or guns not theologians dragging unwilling laity into war.

I just think if you make a list of all the wars known to us from the early Egyptians to the US war on Terror, you will find that religiously motivated wars are the exception, not the rule and that the overwhelming number of actual deaths are caused not by good Muslims or Christians or Jews fighting BECAUSE of their religion but DESPITE it.

My religion forbids me to kill my neighbor...but it also commands me to protect my wife and children. If a criminal breaks into my house at 2am I have to protect my wife and children. If this means reasoning with the guy, I will. But if it means I need to use physical force - even deadly force, then I'll have to do that too - not because the Catholic Church has some crazy theory where by civilians ought to gun each other down... but because my primary responsibility is to family, not a stranger who is an unjust aggressor.

To conclude, people who claim that Religion causes war don't know what the hell they're talking about - they don't know religion and they don't know about many wars.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), January 07, 2005.

I love GOTEN goten is COOOL

-- ~*AngelGoten*~ (angelgoten@hotmail.com), January 08, 2005.

--Anti bush you are talking out of your arse, the IRA routinely killed civilians including policemen, religious leaders and the general population.--

No Bromis its you whos talking out of YOUR arse. The IRA have NEVER killed religious leaders. THat either makes YOU a FUCKING LIAR or a bullshiter. Which is it?
By the way 'policemen' are NOT civilians. When those same policemen are the iron fist of a corrupt system that keeps half the population under oppression, denys them their rightas and routinely murders them, then ALL of those policemen are fair game for any resistance movement.

-- They are terrorists pure and simple and are involved in a whole host of activities from drug dealing and prostitution to as we have seen recently armed robbery.--

Once again TOTAL bollox! did you really think you could come on here and get away with your barefaced lies about hte irish republican army and its ALLEDGED activities?
They have never delibrately targetted civilians unless those so called civilians were spys/informers for the police or british army. Any traitor or spy forefits the rights afforded to normal civilians under rules of engagement in times of war/conflict.
To say the ira are involved in drugs and prostitution is a complete and deliberate lie. Why have the police NEVER been able to bring convictions for any such activities against members of the ira? ? WEll ..?? I'll tell you why, its because they dont involve themselves in such filth. If they did some of them would had to have been busted by now, but in thirty years its never happened. Hundreds of ira men have been captured/charged with various offences and imprisoned yet not one of them has ever been done for those charges you falsely made against them.
And perhaps they did rob that bank at xmas. If they did fair fucking play to them. I hope they spend the money wisely. 26 million (approx 28 million dollars worth)and not a hair on someones head was damaged. They dont need to dirty their hands with drugs and prostitution like the filthy scum of the so called loyalists, who are ACTUAL terror groups.

--I think it’s unbelievably hypocritical of some Americans to bang on and on about terrorism when they not only sympathise with terrorists in another country but also are responsible for a significant amount of it’s funding. --
No, not half as hypocritical as the british. Preaching about law and order on one hand while murdering its own citizens in cold blood on the other. That and denying them their civil rights for decades.

--The majority of Northern Ireland citizens want to be part of Britain, --
Oh blow it out your cake hole. The 'majority' was built in to the artifical state that is northern ireland at its inception. It was designed to give the so called majority full control of the state while irish nationalists suddenly found themselves behind 'political' enemy lines with no rights, little housing, no jobs, no vote and total discrimination. All backed up by a murderous and partisan corupt police force who in turn were backed up by the british army and government.

The question is, do YOU think that those irish nationalists who later formed the ira should have just stood by and let their people be trampled and shit on ,denided jobs, housing, democracy and their civil rights while those who protested were beaten, imprisoned and/or and murdered by those representing the so called 'majority'?.

-- m (mick@you.service), January 08, 2005.

i think thats called handing you your ass Bromis, lol. You know its fair to say in every conflict the ones in power are always painted as the good guys whil the rebelios ones are th baddies. The one sided view of the situation is largely the fault of the media who will always distort the perception in favour of those in power regardless whos wrong or right. Norther ireland is no exception. Mick is ceratinly correct to say that the british govt and more particularly the NIO (northern ireland office) had a deliberate policy of descrimination against irish catholics in northern ireland. This led to the huge civils rights movement. When the british tried to crush this movement by shooting civilians it basically gave birth to the modern IRA and led to over 25 years of war.

To be honest its a bit rich for you to go pointing the finger at americans and irish-americans for the shit that went on in northern ireland when in all reality it was the actions of the british and their unionist lapdogs over the years that brought the situation to a disater. Take a look closer to home before you tart lecturing americans on the mess you guys made yourselves.

-- w (windowcleaner@work.etc), January 09, 2005.

anti-bush

you seem an intelligent guy and you seem to understand the way things go in society and politics,but you are certainly not aware of the deeds of the RCC(roman catholic church)throughout the centuries

440-461- pope leo suppressed the manichaenism,a christian sect

590-604 pope gregory the prohibition of alphabetism 955-963 john IX rape,vandalism and robery,condemned by otto I in 962 for incest,adulatery and murder

1032-1048 benedict XI 'a shame towards the chair of peter' according to the catholic encyclopedia : murder,homosexual orgies,...

i'm not gonna post all the misdeeds of the popes because then i would be busy till tommorow...

some papal laws:

innocentius III: the deliberato: claimed he has the right to say who can be a king and who not,forbids that the bible would be red in latin

innocentius IV 1252: extirpanda advertention: aresstations of all 'heretics' and torture till they confess heresy

john XXII 1320: it was considered as heresy to say that jesus and the apostels had no possesions

sixtus IV 1479: he approved the spanish inquisition

paul IV 1550: cum nimis absurdum: he created the jewish ghetto in rome because he suspected them that they helped the protestants and forced them to wear yellow hats

john XXII : sactatissmo uti cumine: if you would wear the scapular of mary till the death,she will personally escort you to heaven the first saturday after your death

things that gregory I sold:

a feather from the angel gabriel,parts of the thorned crown of jesus,the scull of the holy lawrence,the rest of the clay which god used to create adam,two sculls of peter,clothes of mary...etc...etc

not to speak about all the crusades,indulgences,scapulars,inquisitions etc...etc...

it wasen't a period in the RCC,it was all the time like that

they made of peter the first pope so that it fits to the verse in the bible:'peter would be the rock upon which i would build my church'

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ARE NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF GREEDY LIARS AND MANIPULATORS WHO HAVE BEEN AROUND ALL THIS TIME ONLY FOR THEIR OWN PROFITS AND POLITICAL REASONS

and then they say they give charity...

what charity?

how can charity help if the whole system doesn't work?

charity makes only things worse

for example: there is a hunger,they give people food,no more hunger,people have to many kids,=>too little food for too many people,hunger again

i wonder how much profit they all took for this tsunami **** now...

a part of the money to the state,a part to the organisation,a part to the people that work in the organisation,a part for the telecommunication companies ...etc

every day people die in africa,asia and south america and they don't give a ****

and now suddenly they wanna help asia...

if they would really wanna help,then they'd take away their debts...

and the ****** USA gave to this tsunami disastar as much one day of war in iraq costs...

and there was so much invested in campaigns for promoting condoms and to avoid std's

and then your RCC comes without any responsibility and says that it's evil without ANY reference to the bible

...such a shame

abortion is wrong because it's murder and murder is also wrong according to the bible(although i don't believe in the bible)

but in cases when we speak about zygotes and embryos that don't have a life,which we can't call a human being yet,who have no similar charachteristics developed with full grown human beings,who can't feel pain nor suffer,it isn't wrong

an animal can feel more pain and suffer and has more 'things' developed than these little groups of cells...

the RCC should maybe think about the consequences of their teachings

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 10, 2005.

they sure turned out to be a corrupt bunch of fucks in the end. Worse still with a vice like grip on nations political devices. powere corrupts and as soon as the church (any church indeed) gets power, it corrupted them, wholesale.

-- w (windowcleaner@home.etc), January 10, 2005.

SDQA,

I am totaly aware that the Church has made A LOT of mistakes in the past. They continue to make A LOT of mistakes. Read some of my other posts here. I am definitely NOT a Catholic apologist. I'm not even Catholic. But the Church has done SOME good. Over the last two thousand years, they'v helped a lot of people and stopped a lot of wars. Granted, they've also caused some, and they definitely could have afforded to give more in charity (ever been to the Vatican? the Pope sure isn't starving...). But look at this Pope. He was against the war in Iraq, and he is much more sympathetic towards the world's poor and oppressed than most of the establishment.

Read into Liberation Theology. It's an attempt at blending Catholic teachings with Marxist ideas about social justice. I kinda like it. It's very popular in Latin America. Check it out.

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), January 10, 2005.

lets put things straight:they prevented some wars,but caused much more,the world is going to hell,and they don't really give a ****

i mean they strictly condemn contraceptives,but about the whole globalisation shit?,the american politics?,good christian george bush is against abortion and gay marriage but burns iraqis alive...,all the exploited 3rd world countries?,damnit at least the wars?

what have they done in favor to iraq?

and what have they done during the time of the vietnam war?

they're just like our politicians,they make us focus on the details so that we forget the big things

i mean the pope comdemns terrorism.....

doesn't this say enough?

if i had the power the pope and co have...

i would ask from any single catholic individual NOT to take part in this war or any other useless war,and if he has financial problems support him(they are the richest church in the world so i think this wouldn't be a problem)

about all the charity,i explained in my previous post that certain forms of charity makes things only worse(for example sending food)

they could do so much,but they don't.....

off course that there are good ppl among the catholics,but the RCC as an religious institution certainly isn't

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

I dont know were you are getting your ideas "m" but in the most part they bear no relation to the facts. Have you ever spoken to someone from Northern Ireland? Your opinions show a deep misunderstanding and ignorance of the real situation.

-- bromis (bromis78@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

ROBINSON CALLS FOR URGENT STATEMENT FOLLOWING IRA DRUGS HAUL

East Antrim Ulster Unionist Assembly Member, Ken Robinson has called on the Security Minister to make an urgent statement following revelations that Republicans may have been involved in the importation of a large consignment of drugs.

In a statement Mr Robinson said: "At a critical time in the political process, yet again it would appear that Republicans have been caught red handed. On this occasion, I understand that Gardi are privately signalling that they believe Republican paramilitaries were involved in a large drugs consignment, which was seized by Irish Customs Officers in Rosslare Harbour last Thursday. If true, such a development would highlight the sheer hypocrisy of Sinn Fein who on one hand campaign against drug dealing while their military wing continues to peddle in the importation and distribution of drugs.

"This latest revelation comes on the back of the large cigarette heist in Belfast and ongoing criminal acts on both sides of the border where security forces have indicated that paramilitaries were involved.

"Clearly we need clarity on this situation and I am calling on the Security Minister to make an urgent statement so that no-one is in any doubt as to what is happening. In addition, given the strong sentiments of the Irish Justice Minister in recent months against the IRA, I think it is imperative that the Irish Government publicly states who they believe has been involved in these operations. I would also hope that the IMC Commission would highlight in its next report exactly what has been occurring".

Mr Robinson continued: "Questions also need to be asked of the Republican leadership. At a time when we are being told that Republicans are serious about advancing the process it is quite clear that republican elements are still heavily involved in serious criminal activity. This either means that these acts have been sanctioned by the Republican leadership or they have lost control of key elements within the IRA. Either way, society deserves to be told the truth.

"Republicans must learn that actions speak louder than words. That is why Unionism demands clear evidence that the War is over once and for all"

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

Irish Independent 8th September McCabe relative demands Adams' apology

A RELATIVE of slain Garda Police Officer Jerry McCabe has slammed Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams as a "fascist thug" after he refused to apologise to her at the weekend for the killing of the Limerick detective.

Una Heaton, who is a sister-in-law of the slain detective, held up the Sinn Fein European election convention in Limerick on Saturday for 20 minutes as she demanded the apology from the floor.

The Sinn Fein leader expressed his regret over Det Gda McCabe's death but refused to give a direct apology for the killing. Ms Heaton said yesterday she left the meeting in disgust.

She said that the Sinn Fein president promised to speak with her after the meeting but he later withdrew the offer. And now she says she still intends to meet him face-to-face as soon as possible in an effort to finally extract an apology.

"He told me from the top table he would meet me later and I refused but after leaving the room I changed my mind and sent word back in to him that I would be willing to wait and meet him. A short time later word was sent back out to me that he could not fit our meeting into his schedule, or words to that effect.

"I was appalled by this as apart from his obvious intent to side-step the issue of Jerry's killing, he couldn't even find it in himself to give me the courtesy of a meeting.

"I am not surprised because I consider him a fascist thug and he is not a man at all in my book. I felt I had to approach him and I am glad I did it and the McCabe family is glad and I still intend to meet him face to face."

Ms Heaton also explained that before she interrupted the meeting she was asked to leave by a number of "handlers" and was even threatened the gardai would remove her if she did not go voluntarily.

"I thought that was particularly ironic," she said.

Eugene Hogan http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3? ca=9&si=1043516&issue_id=9774

---------------

In March 2000 a Sinn Fein Belfast city council candidate, Jim Clinton, was convicted of possessing a Beretta pistol which had been posted to him from Chicago. He was given a 2 year suspended sentence. He did not have to serve any time in prison for receiving this gun in the post.

Sunday Independent

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

Telegraph Beach body 'is mother killed by IRA 30 years ago' By Thomas Harding in Shelling Hill (Filed: 28/08/2003)

The body of a woman executed by the IRA was believed to have been found yesterday more than 30 years after she disappeared.

The remains of Jean McConville, a mother of 10, were thought to have been found by a walker less than 500 yards from a stretch of beach in the Irish Republic which was searched by the Garda four years ago following a tip-off from the IRA.

Mrs McConville was abducted and murdered in 1972 after she comforted a British soldier who had been shot and wounded outside her door in Belfast.

The Provisionals denied killing her, claiming she had fled the Roman Catholic working-class area to live with a soldier, abandoning her children.

But after a long campaign by her family, the Provisionals admitted in the late 1990s that they had murdered her and gave details about the unmarked graves of a number of the so-called Disappeared - the victims of IRA terror.

The Provisionals said they had buried Mrs McConville at the Templetown beach beauty spot in Carlingford, Co Louth, but a series of digs by the Irish police covering 4,500 square feet failed to unearth anything.

Yesterday a person out walking discovered the skeletal remains in a shallow grave in an area of scrub where dunes meet the sweeping beach at Shelling Hill on the Cooley peninsula. The remote spot is just 30 minutes' drive from the Northern Ireland border through winding country lanes.

Five sons and one daughter of Mrs McConville were taken to the place where the remains were found. They laid flowers and a local priest led prayers at the scene.

The remains were then removed by two undertakers and put in a hearse with the siblings walking slowly behind as it drove off.

While the McConville family will have to wait until DNA tests confirm that the body is that of their mother, Michael McConville, 41, one of five sons to visit the spot yesterday, said there were "too many coincidences for it not to be her". He added: "It's been 30 years of hell. We hope it's our mother so we can get this over and done with and give her a Christian burial."

"For 20 years I was very bitter to the people who did this but now I just want to get on with my life. This has run on for a long time."

Mrs McConville, a Protestant who married a Roman Catholic, was abducted by four women at gunpoint days after tending a wounded British soldier near her home in the Divis Flats, off the Falls Road, Belfast.

The family had lost their father, who had served in the Army until 1964, to cancer 10 months earlier. The eldest daughter Helen, 15, tried to hold her remaining family together, but they were split up and placed in homes.

Despite denying any knowledge of the McConville murder, Gerry Adams, the Sinn Fein leader and alleged IRA member, had some involvement according to Ed Moloney's book, The IRA: A Secret History.

Mr Adams allegedly formed a special unit within the IRA, called the "Unknowns", which was responsible for the murder and it was "inconceivable" that he was unaware of the order to kill her, the book claims.

Mr Adams has always distanced himself from the "disappearances".

In 1999 searches took place at locations in Louth, Monaghan, Meath and Wicklow that the IRA said were burial sites. The searches uncovered the remains of John McClory, 17, and Brian McKinney, 21, buried in a double grave at Colgagh bog, near Iniskeen, Co Monaghan.

The body of Eamonn Molloy was dug up by the IRA and left in a coffin placed in a cemetery near the Louth border with South Armagh.

There are still six families, including the McConvilles, who are waiting for graves to be found.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2003/08/28/nbody28.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/08/28/ixhome.html

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

Sunday Independent A three-year-old is no soldier, Gerry

THE claim that the IRA only killed or injured civilians by accident is part of the myth-making and rewriting of history that has become something of a republican industry in recent years.

The chief proponent of this revisionism is Gerry Adams who was an IRA leader during the time it carried out its bloodiest attacks on civilian targets.

And now he repeats it in a response to a reader's question in the London Independent.

From the outset in 1971 right up to its mid-Nineties ceasefires, the IRA carried out attacks on civilians.

It is difficult if not impossible to square Adams' claims of innocence or neglect on the part of the IRA in respect of incidents like the March 1993 bombing in Warrington.

The IRA placed a Semtex bomb in a rubbish bin which exploded in the town's shopping centre on a busy Saturday afternoon.

It killed two young boys, Jonathan Ball, 3, and Timothy Parry, 12. There was no warning.

The bomb was placed and detonated with the express purpose of causing civilian casualties in Britain.

It was part of the IRA's pressure-building activity to gain concessions from the British government during the negotiations leading to the 1994 ceasefire.

In response to a reader's question in the Independent which asked: "What is the difference between IRA terrorism and Al-Qaeda terrorism?", Adams replies that he does not think there is any similarity between Al-Qaeda and the IRA and that he would not describe the IRA asterrorists.

He goes on: "The September 11th attacks were probably closer to Dresden or Hiroshima in that a lot of planning and resources were put into deliberately killing civilians in large numbers.

"The IRA's killing of civilians is equally wrong, but the IRA would argue that it did so by accident. That is no succour to the victims' families but the IRA was one of the few guerrilla organisations that gave warnings."

Aside from comparing Al-Qaeda to the Allies in the Second World War, the skew on IRA terrorism belies the fact that the IRA is one of the world's most advanced terrorist organisations which has provided other groups around the world with ideas and, in the case of ETA, FARC and Hisbullah, actual training.

Adams' views in the Independent are at variance with remarks he made only last weekend on the Dunphy show .

He said in that interview that the IRA's Canary Wharf bombing in 1996, in which two news vendors were killed, was designed to force the British government's hand in negotiations.

"Nothing was happening, then things started to happen," he told Dunphy.

Some security analysts believe that the IRA bomb attacks on the City of London in 1992 and 1993 provided Al-Qaeda with the idea of attacking the Twin Towers.

The first Al-Qaeda attack on the Twin Towers in 1993 bore considerable resemblance to IRA attacks.

There was already a long history of IRA idea-sharing with Middle Eastern terrorist groups and Islamic extremists have long paid attention to IRA tactics.

A landmine attack that killed three Irish UN troops in south Lebanon in March 1989 was an almost exact replica of the IRA attack on the British army at Warrenpoint in August 1979, in which 18 soldiers were killed.

The falseness of the claim by Gerry Adams that the IRA gave warnings and tried to avoid civilian casualties is revealed in the other attack on the same day the 18 soldiers were killed.

A hundred miles away in Co Sligo the IRA detonated a bomb in the boat belonging to Lord Mountbatten killing him, the 79-year-old Lady Brabourne and two boys, Nicholas Knatchbull and Paul Maxwell. This was one of the IRA's many deliberate killings of civilians.

Almost from the outset the IRA was engaged in the deliberate killing of civilians for purely terrorist effect.

In 1971 in Belfast, there were a series of bomb attacks on Protestant pubs, killing at least seven people.

Times and places were chosen to create maximum Protestant civilian casualties.

At the end of that year the IRA detonated a bomb without warning outside the Balmoral Furniture Store on the Shankill Road.

This bomb killed an infant boy and girl and two men working for the Store.

In 1972, the IRA unleashed a series of bloody no-warning bomb attacks centring on civilian targets in Belfast. The attacks were directed by the IRA leader, Seamus Twomey, who Adams has identified as one of his guiding figures.

The worst atrocities of 1972 included the Abercorn Restaurant bombing in March. A bomb in a shopping bag exploded without any warning in the centre of the café which was packed with women shoppers.

Two young women, both Catholics, were blown apart and three other women had more than one limb amputated. One young Donegal woman shopping for her wedding dress lost both legs and an arm.

This was followed by a no-warning bomb attack which killed six people in Donegall Street and the Bloody Friday series of bomb attacks in July 1972 in which 22 bombs exploded in 45 minutes.

The IRA gave warnings in both these events but the information they gave was wrong and actually increased the numbers of casualties.

At the end of July 1972, the IRA responded to the British army's invasion of its "no go" areas by detonating a car bomb without warning in the village of Claudy, Co Derry, killing nine people including a nine-year-old girl.

The history of the Troubles is littered with examples of the IRA's murderousness.

Its early attacks in Britain were deliberately designed to create as much civilian death and injury as possible.

The Birmingham pub bombings in November 1974 killed 21 people when bombs exploded in packed bars. No-warning bombs exploded in London, Woolwhich and Guildford killing civilians. In January 1976, the IRA in south Armagh stopped a bus carrying Protestant workmen at Whitecross, lined them up against a ditch and shot 10 of them dead.

Again in January 1992 the IRA killed eight Protestant workmen in a landmine attack in Teebane, Co Tyrone.

This attack was designed to derail political talks in the North at the time.

One of the most hideous attacks in the history of the Trouble's was the IRA's killing of 12 people attending a kennel club dinner at the La Mon House Hotel in east Belfast in January 1978.

The IRA used a blast incendiary bomb - using plastic explosive and a canister of home-made napalm - which caused all the victims to suffer horrific burns. There was no warning.

There was also no warning for the Enniskillen bombing in November 1987 in which 12 people - again all Protestants - were blown up as they assembled for a Remembrance Day ceremony.

The IRA claimed at the time that the bomb had gone off prematurely but forensic examination of the bomb remains showed it was set off by a detonator. It was a deliberate attack.

The IRA man and woman who led the attack subsequently married and have a family.

There are also strong suspicions that the timer on the IRA bomb that killed 10 Protestants in Frizzell's fish shop on the Shankill Road was deliberately set to cause as many civilian injuries as possible.

The bombing sparked a series of retaliatory killings by the UDA which resulted in 28 deaths over a month that culminated with the gun attack on the Rising Sun bar in Greysteel, Co Derry, in which seven Catholics were killed.

That Gerry Adams seems to have forgotten these and the many other atrocities his organisation perpetrated is remarkable given that he was at the very top of the IRA for most of the last 30 years.

Jim Cusack

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3? ca=36&si=1057414&issue_id=9878

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

I'll give it a rest now its just too easy to find this stuff are you ready to admit your wrong yet "m" or do I have to keep posting articles from respected news sources that totally blow your arguments out of the water?

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

It's obvious who the bullshitter is now eh? go and educate yourself before spouting off about things you do not understand in future dickhead

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

Once again you prove nothing other than your just another anti- republican and a total tosser. A deep misunderatanding eh? i live about ten minutes form the border and i know plenty people from northen ireland as ive even lived there for a time.

Now before you wipe the rest of the shit off your face why dont you go and copy and paste some stuff about the acts of terror committed against republican politicians, catholic civilians, the assasiations of Irish human rights lawyers, the torture and indeed murder of both suspected and/or actual ira members and by british backed loyalists.
Ive no doubt you could fill all the threads on this site with the amount of material out there implicating the british with war crimes and state sponsored terror and murder of irish nationalists who oppose the british presence on this island.

As for you so called 'respected sources', all youve done is copy and paste from a range of heavily biased, anti-republican shite rag websites. For instance the story about the 'massive drugs haul'.
Wheres the proof? Well..? the police coulndt prove a thing but still accused the ira without a shred of evidence. Why? why not. even though they know it wasnt the ira they grasp every opportunity to mud sling. Its called propaganda, dickhead. THey all use it even when they know its biullshit. Its not like the ira are going to sue the police for libel is it?

As for a sinn fein member being caught with a gun!?! well whoop de fucking whoo! What the fuck you expect them to do. Will both loyalist death squads and disedent groups opposed to the peace process running around with guns and the anti-irish pro-unionist police not interested in protecting sinn fein politicians of course theyre going to source personal protection weapons.

YOu got one thing right though, it is obvious who the bullshitter is, its YOU bromis. Now go back to your afternoon tea and crumpets and reading boring articles about the royals.you muppet.

-- m (mick@yourdoor.verysoon), January 11, 2005.

OK you wnat more I see here you go:

Real IRA muscles in on border drugs trade

By Ciaran McGuigan

THE Omagh bombers have turned to the multi-million pound drug dealing industry to boost their earnings from smuggling rackets.

The Real IRA, which has a firm grip on tobacco and fuel smuggling, has now muscled in on the lucrative drugs trade in Dublin.

According to security sources on both sides of the border, they are involved in moving large shipments of cannabis from Dublin to be distributed throughout Northern Ireland.

The dissident group, which has been rocked by a number of intelligence stings that have resulted in its key members being locked behind bars, has swayed from its public anti-drugs stance.

And it has now decided to mirror the INLA by getting involved in the multi-million pound Dublin drugs empire.

Said one security source: "The INLA has always been involved in the Dublin drugs scene, but now the Real IRA has got in on the act.

"They keep themselves separate from the other dissident groups, but they are very much involved in moving drugs from Dublin around the country and into the North."

And the Real IRA's drugs contacts cross the sectarian divide, with the dissident republicans involved in deals with loyalist paramilitaries.

Added another source: "A lot of the cannabis that goes north is moved by the Real IRA.

"Like most criminals, they sell it on to whoever is willing to pay them.

"They don't restrict themselves to republican areas, but are quite happy to deal with the UFF, the LVF or whoever."

According to intelligence reports, the Republic is a major route for cannabis entering the UK from Europe and north Africa.

And earlier this year a US Congressional hearing was told that there was evidence linking the Real IRA to that drug trafficking.

Rand Beers, an assistant secretary for international narcotics affairs testifying to the US Senate about links between the IRA and FARC terrorists in Colombia, insisted the Real IRA had become involved in the drugs trade.

Irish Independent 16th Dec

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

OK you wnat more I see here you go:

Real IRA muscles in on border drugs trade

By Ciaran McGuigan

THE Omagh bombers have turned to the multi-million pound drug dealing industry to boost their earnings from smuggling rackets.

The Real IRA, which has a firm grip on tobacco and fuel smuggling, has now muscled in on the lucrative drugs trade in Dublin.

According to security sources on both sides of the border, they are involved in moving large shipments of cannabis from Dublin to be distributed throughout Northern Ireland.

The dissident group, which has been rocked by a number of intelligence stings that have resulted in its key members being locked behind bars, has swayed from its public anti-drugs stance.

And it has now decided to mirror the INLA by getting involved in the multi-million pound Dublin drugs empire.

Said one security source: "The INLA has always been involved in the Dublin drugs scene, but now the Real IRA has got in on the act.

"They keep themselves separate from the other dissident groups, but they are very much involved in moving drugs from Dublin around the country and into the North."

And the Real IRA's drugs contacts cross the sectarian divide, with the dissident republicans involved in deals with loyalist paramilitaries.

Added another source: "A lot of the cannabis that goes north is moved by the Real IRA.

"Like most criminals, they sell it on to whoever is willing to pay them.

"They don't restrict themselves to republican areas, but are quite happy to deal with the UFF, the LVF or whoever."

According to intelligence reports, the Republic is a major route for cannabis entering the UK from Europe and north Africa.

And earlier this year a US Congressional hearing was told that there was evidence linking the Real IRA to that drug trafficking.

Rand Beers, an assistant secretary for international narcotics affairs testifying to the US Senate about links between the IRA and FARC terrorists in Colombia, insisted the Real IRA had become involved in the drugs trade.

Irish Independent 16th Dec

Call for Urgent Action on the Issue of Child Beatings Jul 8 2003

A TOTAL of 19 children were shot by terror groups in Ulster last year - averaging out at one every three weeks.

The News Letter can also reveal that while 2002 is the second worst recorded year in terms of shootings of children by paramilitary organisations - mainly the UDA, UVF and the IRA - this figure is only the tip of the iceberg.

Loyalists were responsible for 12 child shootings while republicans carried out seven.

The loyalist haul chillingly included the case of one child under 14 years of age.

From official statistics, 2001 has been recorded as the worst year, with loyalists shooting 14 children and republicans targeting nine.

These revelations are contained in the third and final report by Professor Liam Kennedy of Queen's University.

His paper - Child Victims of Paramilitary "Punishments" in Northern Ireland in 2002 - has been prepared for the Northern Ireland Committee against Terror.

Prof Kennedy told the News Letter this is his final report because he feels action, not words, must now be taken.

"It is time the governments faced up to the issue," he said. "Children are considered as 17 years and younger."

Prof Kennedy also reveals that paramilitary-style assaults on children in 2002 [nine by loyalists and 13 by republicans] were marginally down on the previous year [18 by loyalists and 18 by republicans] - but still remain at a frightening level.

"I am working from the official police statistics. They are probably only the tip of the iceberg," he said.

It has also emerged that children from a nationalist background remain at a greater risk of being shot or brutally assaulted by paramilitary groups compared to children from a unionist background.

"The system of 'punishment' shootings and assaults operated throughout the whole period of the recent political negotiations, culminating in the publication of the Joint Declaration by the London and Dublin governments," said Prof Kennedy.

"The period also saw the publication of an ambiguous IRA statement, unacceptable to the two governments on its attitude to violence and the Good Friday Agreement.

"It is difficult not to draw the conclusion that, in the absence of a public and explicit commitment by the IRA - in a new IRA statement - to stop "punishment attacks, these shootings and mutilations will continue."

In his report, Prof Kennedy said there is something "particularly repulsive" about the use of a gun in "punishing" a child: shooting him in the leg, the ankle, the elbow or the hand.

"Yet such is the force and duration of some of the beatings that, according to medical evidence, the incidents can result in longer term and more intractable physical and psychological pain," he pointed out.

"This points up the severity of some of these assaults.

Sometimes the two forms of ' punishment' are combined."

His landmark paper proposes that the appointment of a children's ombudsman for Northern Ireland should actively champion the rights of children in the face of paramilitary abuse.

Prof Kennedy also points to the "urgent need" for an anti- intimidation unit to tackle the multiple sources of intimidation in this society.

He also suggests any violations of children or adults by paramilitary organisations should be carefully monitored and should carry political penalties for political parties linked to paramilitary private "armies".

IRA exposed over drug role

THE IRA is involved in drugs, Government intelligence has revealed.

As the Organised Crime Task Force Threat Assessment Report suggested, paramilitaries have all but abandoned armed struggle for organised crime.

A Government official said information indicated all the terror groups are involved in all areas of the criminal world.

Until now, Ulster's drugs cartels had been perceived to be loyalist or non-affiliated.

The IRA has publicly opposed drugs and killed many big-name dealers under the name of Direct Action Against Drugs.

Increasingly detailed intelligence has also revealed that loyalist and republican terror organisations account for around 65 per cent of the organised crime networks - either directly running gangs, providing muscle, or with other links.

Of these two-thirds, there is roughly a 50:50 split across the sectarian divide, with the IRA, dissident republicans, UDA, UVF and LVF all involved.

Security Minister Jane Kennedy said that the paramilitaries had turned to other criminal enterprises after abandoning their ideological struggles.

"It is completely unacceptable that those who were once seen as the defenders of their communities have increasingly turned to organised crime, selfishly maintaining an affluent lifestyle at the expense of those who work hard to earn their living," she said.

Setting targets to beat the gangsters

IMPROVED intelligence gathering and co-operation between the PSNI and other agencies has set a list of priority criminal targets for the next year.

Through the Organised Crime Task Force's assessment, extortion, narcotics, fuel smuggling, tobacco and alcohol duty evasion, money laundering, counterfeit goods and armed robbery are areas where the gangs can and must be hit hardest.

The targeting may also be helped by the work of the Assets Recovery Agency (ARA), which also expects to flex its muscles soon.

ARA Northern Ireland boss Alan McQuillan, using new powers under the Proceeds of Crime Act to pursue illegal wealth, yesterday told the News Letter his team are well on the way to bringing people before the courts by the autumn.

A Government spokesman also said: "There's clear evidence that the setup of ARA has scared a lot of people."

But he conceded that anticipation of its work may have given criminals time to move assets out of the Province.

Waging War Against Ulster's Underworld

Jun 12 2003 ONE hundred mafia-style crime gangs are operating a billion pound illegal industry in Ulster.

The annual report from the Organised Crime Task Force (OCTF) has shone new light into the dark corners of criminal activity which one senior police officer yesterday described as a "menace looming large" over the country, which has "the potential to increase its grip on the community".

Assistant Chief Constable Chris Albiston said the full-time criminals posed a "serious threat" to society if not tackled by law enforcement, Government and the community itself.

He was speaking at the opening of a major International Organised Crime Conference in Belfast, where delegates from around the globe heard of problems being tackled in Northern Ireland.

Opening the conference, Secretary of State Paul Murphy said: " Organised crime is one of the gravest problems facing Northern Ireland. Criminal gangs pose a very real threat."

In particular, more than 200 experts on organised crime were presented with the third annual Threat Assessment Report (2002-2003) from the Northern Ireland Office's OCTF.

Even though the authorities have scored big successes over the last 12 months in their war against smuggling, counterfeiting, drugdealing, robbery and extortion, it has emerged that the gangsters are increasingly branching out into other areas of crime.

"Every time we dismantle or disrupt one group or an activity, the criminals move into another area and start again,'' said a Government official.

"That means things are everchanging and we have to be adaptable across all law-enforcement agencies to shift as they shift."

To illustrate the point, the task force has been trailing the gangsters and improving intelligence to reveal many gangs which had previously been undiscovered.

Security Minister Jane Kennedy, who chairs the task force, claimed the new information had provided a clearer picture of the criminals.

However, she added: "In spite of the considerable successes of the last 12 months, the level of organised crime activity continues to remain a serious problem in Northern Ireland, with crime enterprises diversifying their activities."

A Government official added: "Organised crime is multinational and the people involved here may turn up anywhere from Taiwan to Turkey.

"The gangs are even linked to international networks like the Triads or the Russians."

First victories in unending struggle

ULSTER crime gangs have been put under increasing pressure but their empires are still bringing in hundreds of millions of pounds a year.

Over the past 12 months, there has been a growing number of successes against the organised criminal network in the Province.

However, all of the groups which make up the Organised Crime Task Force (OCTF) are at pains to reflect that their efforts to clamp down on the gangsters have only just begun and will be never-ending.

In the OCTF's third annual Threat Assessment Report, it was revealed that between April 2002 and March 2003:

64 organised crime networks had members arrested. 35 groups had members prosecuted for offences ranging from attempted murder and blackmail to fraud and drug offences. 75 outfits were disrupted or dismantled, although many members have switched to other networks and moved on to other illegal areas. £7 million worth of counterfeit goods were seized in Northern Ireland - more than in England, Scotland and Wales put together. Drugs to the value of £8.8 million were seized, resulting in 1,200 arrests. Northern Ireland's drugs market does not reflect national trends, however, with cannabis and Ecstasy accounting for nearly 90 per cent of all seizures. Heroin and cocaine have shown small signs of growth. In the battle against excise fraud, the authorities have seized 88.5 million cigarettes, millions of litres of illicit fuel and broken up eight major fuel laundering plants. However, the successes and increased information on organised crime have also revealed its huge scale:

Smuggling is described as "by far and away the most lucrative activity". Indeed, an astonishing two-thirds of petrol stations in Ulster are believed to be selling some illegal fuel. The counterfeit-goods market is another huge earner, with an estimated value to the gangs of £136 million per year from products such as CDs, computer games and clothing. Cases of reported extortion are rising steadily but law agencies believe it is a heavily underreported crime which is costing untold millions with knock-on price rises to consumers. In other areas, "cash-intransit" robberies fell slightly last year due to increased cooperation between the security firms and the PSNI.

Incidents of counterfeit currency also dropped, although the face- value of notes seized was significantly higher.

UTV http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=29999&pt=n

I'm sure I could find articles detailing the deliberate killing of civilians and organised crime on both sides I dont deny that.

You said:

"They have never delibrately targetted civilians unless those so called civilians were spys/informers for the police or british army. Any traitor or spy forefits the rights afforded to normal civilians under rules of engagement in times of war/conflict."

That is obvious bullshit no matter which way you slice it, so I'm sorry you are wrong and an idiot. The IRA has been involved in all the things I mentioned in my origional post and I have backed my statements up. Just admit your mistakes now and save yourself looking even more foolish than you do already

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

oops sorry for the repeat

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

Heresay and innuendo...well, there kinds of evidence arent they?

Once again all youve done is a cheap copy and paste job from anti- republican sources.
Look youre probably a nice guy when youre not being an arsehole but in case you hadnt noticed there was a war in northern ireland and people on all sides got shot, bombed and locked away. Except of course for the victims of the loyalist scum the 'Shankhill butchers' who sliced their catholic victims to death.

THe only one here looking like a fool is you. If i wanted i too could fill this thread up with posts about war crimes and attrocities committed by the british and unionists over the years. All you have is a one sided blinkerd, rightwing media version of the story. You show no concept of understanding the reality of the corrupt and artificial state that is northern ireland and the unfolding events that brought about a state of war in the provence. You just watch the news, read the papers and swallow all the soundbites then regurgitate them out onto the thread here.

What really proves your stupidity is dragging the northern ireland conflict into this thread in the first place. The original subject deals with attempts to reintroduce religion or more to the point creationism, into some schools in america. All youve done is to jam up the thread with unrealated articles from pro-british/anti- republican media sources. Keep wiping the shit off your face, but if you keep your head out of your arse long enough you might see reality.

-- mick (lionel_hutz@no.moneydown), January 11, 2005.

Oh dear more mistakes. firstly, I was not the first person to mention Northern Ireland I was only responding to some ignorant comments made by anti-bush. Secondly I didnt deny anything leveled at unionists or the british government past or present. nor do I condone any of the obvious injustices or atrocities on either side. you may feel more comfortable to label me as anti republican but in truth I am only anti lies if that offends your obvious republican stance then so be it. I have never previously read any of the articles I posted, my origional statement was based on real events reported in the national media and from talking to friends. Its you who seems to have a blinkered veiw of reality.

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

...while your sourcing your next copy and paste job, heres a little something to enlighten you to the antics of your loyalist heros.In particualar micheal 'funeral attacking' stone and Mad dog adair. http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/story.jsp? story=374872

-- m (mick@your.service), January 11, 2005.

Are you listening I dont hold any strong political views on either side, I dont have loyalist heros WAKE UP! I just cant stand opinionated ignorant people. I dont care whos gay are you retarded? I couldnt care less. Why dont you just admit your mistakes, admit that the IRA has killed innocents intentionally and is involved in drug dealing. I dont think you claimed that the majority of people in Northern Ireland wanted to be part of a united Ireland, -- "Oh blow it out your cake hole. The 'majority' was built in to the artifical state that is northern ireland at its inception. It was designed to give the so called majority full control of the state while irish nationalists suddenly found themselves behind 'political' enemy lines with no rights, little housing, no jobs, no vote and total discrimination. All backed up by a murderous and partisan corupt police force who in turn were backed up by the british army and government."

well done, that was the one part of your post that I can truly agree on but the majority is there.

Maybe I'm just too much of an idealist but in my mind the killing of innocent people can never be justified irrespective of the colour of their skin the country they live in or their religious beliefs. When people cross that line they are in my mind murderers however they may try to justify their acts. Hows the weather?

-- bromis (bromis@bioactive.org), January 11, 2005.

look, i dont know or care if your gay OR retarded. its not my business. You want me to 'admit' to being wrong aboput something that im actually correct on. I dont belive that the ira 'intentionally' killed innocents. THe did so on occasion and it was accidental. sometimes bombs went off prematurly because of electro magnetic/microwave etc. 'curtains' transmitted throughout danger spots by the british, from their outposts and army bases. Sometimes it was bad planning , sometimes bad luck.
Quite different from theose that portray themselves as defenders of law and order ordering soilders to shoot live rounds into crowds of protestors. Not to mention them conducting covert and state sponsored assainations of those opponents who had NO incolvement with any paramilitariies. ie human rights laywers Rosemary nelson, brian fanuken.
You try to make out that your somehow neutral yet you clearly are not.

-- m (mick@etc.etc), January 11, 2005.

There is so much misinformation out there it's amazing...

Anything as big as the Catholic Church, with a 2000 year history, filled with every ethnic group under the sun, is bound to have bad members who mess things up.

But neither the teaching nor the institution is bad. OK we had some bad popes.. but they didn't use their position to claim via teaching that what they did was OK. (Which is why us Catholics centuries later could honestly say, and teach the world, that these popes were bad).

The only thing the world knows about the Inquisition or the crusades or anything else are things which Catholics themselves wrote! Catholics shamed and angry with fellow Catholics and their bone- headed or sinful actions... later non-Catholics pick up on these writings and then use them to accuse the whole church of evil, lumping in the guilty with the innocent.

Not every Irishman is in the IRA, and not every IRA member is an active Catholic...but when these guys who aren't very practicing and aren't very loyal Catholics do something bad...the Church gets blamed for it rather than the men themselves! How fair is that?

Did any OTHER church save jews and denounce Hitler in WW2? No. Only the Catholic church did. But then as now, not all Catholics obeyed the Pope. Then, like now, some sided with the regime and betrayed jews either by action or laziness...

But 50 years later who is blamed for these disobedient people? The Institution, the doctrine, the pope... everyone BUT those who actually messed up! And somehow this is considered fair...even though this kind of blame game isn't used for any other religion and its members.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.

Wow, Joe...I think you and me are, like...on the same side here...crazy...

-- Anti-Bush (comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), January 21, 2005.

the teachings are bad and the institution is bad also

i posted here just SOME of the bad teachings and the evil deeds of the leaders of this institution and the evil acts of the entire institution

don't you learn that stuff in school?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), January 21, 2005.

the rcc are a bunch of corrupt lowlife hypocrites and faggots

what have they ever done good?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 21, 2005.

sdqa,

Just read some of the above answers. Some agree with you, some don't but there are answers to your assertions that seem quite reasonable to me. I'm not much of an apologist. I have a 30 year history of athiest/agnostic attitudes that only recently changed.

Sure there were bad popes, and periods when the Church messed up due to the people involved at the time.

It just seems that your brush is a bit too wide.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 22, 2005.

i think that the problem is that you all think that the RCC is basicly good but there were just some bad people there who took advantage of their position

but the truth is that the rcc is a corrupt institution,they take things out of the context from the bible and teach that jesus christ gave them full authority to teach whatever they want...read my original post with which i started this thread and read about their teachings...and after all that crime that they have commited they still have the guts to bring up the dogma of papal infaillability...i mean this is insane...they are men,like you and me,'sinners' like you and me,history has shown that we can't rely on men the same way we rely on god

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 23, 2005.

it's very easy to find excuses and to deny facts when it's about something you stand for

it is very easy to deny the truth and impossible to accept it if you think that jesus established this church

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 23, 2005.

use your fucken brains for once

don't be just a damn puppet of manipulations

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 23, 2005.

If that last part was directed at me, I do use them to the best of my ability. Bad management and evil is part of all human history. Man is a master of srewing things up. As long as mankind is involved there will be disaster after disaster. You can't pin it all on the RCC.

There is more than one side on any issue, you have to try to see around the corners. I leave Catholic apologetics to others who are more well versed than me. Apologetics is not a passion in my life. I do like to talk to people.

Everyone has their way of seeing things, you have yours, and you may see things differently over time. --- And I'm not necessarily talking about the RCC.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 23, 2005.

no it was not directed at you jim,but to all the other catholics that deny historical facts because they can't live with the fact that the church they are convinced jesus christ established was so evil and corrupt

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 23, 2005.

I really didn't think your comment was directly aimed at me.

I think you almost have to look at religion through two sets of eyes. At least thats the way it is for me, as faith has never come easily.( Except when I was a young child.)

I can look at it through the rational eyes I've used for many many years, or through "faith eyes." When looking through the eyes of faith you pretty much have to give up the ideas of rationalism. Rational proofs don't hold up. Some people like to try to prove religeous beliefs with rational arguments. These don't move me. Its something else.

I don't think most Catholics are unable to see the errors that have occured in the past. The Pope has acknowleged and apologized for the Church's historical shortcomings. Again the nature of man is to do some pretty nasty stuff.

The parish I recently came back to which is run by Jesuits and has started a middle school for inner city kids who are given an opportunity for a quality education. It runs from 7:30 am to 5:00pm. Its kept afloat by contributions of the parish and other philanthropists. About 80% are going on to complete highschool and college. I think this is a good thing. It wouldn't have happened if it had been left up to say ---me.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 23, 2005.

'But in truth--the real church of Jesus Christ is not contained in any one religion on this earth. It isn't Roman or Lutheran or Calvinistic or Church of Christ or anything you could name.

I know this because His Body is a mystery--a body of true believers, whom He knows. He said we could not be divided and I believe that we are not divided--but united in Christ.

All earthly institutions are divided up and that includes the Catholic religion--even though I know that the Catholic Church would deny it. '

[correct]-sdqa

'See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Col 1:12 '

[correct]-sdqa

'Is that you don't recognize that by *private* the Scriptures were condemning institutionalizing the Scriptures to serve your own end.

The catholic Church has its own private interpretation of the Scripture--to which, if the faithful disagree, they are excommunicated. The same is true of the Mormon Church and the jehovah Witnesses.

On the other-hand, Jesus Himself commands us to know the Scriptures. He holds us individually accountable and expects that we can know what God is saying to us.'

[correct again]-sdqa

'The only way that His words could be true--is if His church is spiritual. We are those who are born-again. '

[correct again,church has never had to be interpreted literally]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 24, 2005.

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 24, 2005.

roman catholicism isn't as it is today isn't based on the scriptures but on subjective manmade interpretations of it...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 24, 2005.

roman catholicism isn't as it is today isn't based on the scriptures but on subjective manmade interpretations of it WHICH ARE EVEN CONTRADICTORY TO THE SCRIPTURES

-- jerry (doofykorn@hotmail.com), January 24, 2005.

I don't do apologetics, plenty of people on the Catholic board will take those issues up one by one.

The point I was trying to make was, that the Church is not the worst thing since Satan discovered sliced bread.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 24, 2005.

surely the scriptures are man made interpretations in their own right.

-- sdfgsg (dfgsdfg@fdgsdfg.sfdgsdf), January 24, 2005.