Sola Scriptura

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I spent 8 years in catholic catecism, yet i didn't walk away with much more that the importants to the sacraments. Even having an uncle for a priest I seem to be rather ignorant when it comes to catholic doctrine. I do see the need for "doctrine" but at the same time I seem to be able to get just about any direction i need in my life from just reading the bible. To me it seems the purpose for catecism is to define the so called "grey area". But I feel that I should live by the ten commandments, and the reason i read the bible is for that grey area.

I realize that people can manipulate the bible to get a message across that just is not there. But at the same time I can read the bible 100 times over and get something different and just a valuable each time.

It just seems to me that there is so much enfasis on catholic doctrine, i feel like i'm missing something. Is it just an interpretation of the bibles "rules & regulations" to live by? or is there something more to it? It's just that whenever there is a spiritual issue or a question that i have, I can resolve it by reading the bible.

BTW does anyone know a good site where i can look up catholic doctrine?

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 10, 2005

Answers

Hi kat,

First let me say that your curiousity, openness, and desire for God are rare and precious gifts; it made my day reading your post.

'Catholic doctrine' is not an interpretation of the Bible. Rather, it is the whole body of formulas that contain (as best as they can) the faith of the Church. Doctrine is a necessary instrument for bringing the same faith to the whole world, and to maintain the unity of the Church.

The Bible is not the only, the original, or the final source of revelation for Christians. Jesus is the original Revelation, and his disciples, altogether helped by the Holy Spirit, constitute the Church (a.k.a. his 'bride', or his 'body'). The Church is the guardian and herald of this revelation, with the Pope as its visible head.

The Bible is not a condensed collection of formulas in the same way that doctrine is. It is much richer--it is a living Word. The New Testament contains the preaching of the first Christians. The preaching came before the Bible and before doctrine.

Catholic doctrine comes from the faith of the Church--what has been held "always and everywhere by all"--both what was recorded in the Bible, and that which was not recorded.

"Bible-only" Christians argue that the Bible must be complete because "God wouldn't have given us only a part of his Word." But Catholics do not believe we only have "part" of the Word. Rather, the whole Word of God, Jesus Christ, lives in the Church--his disciples. The Bible is central to our faith, but it is not the ultimate (exclusive) source of Catholic faith.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 10, 2005.


[Reposted, sans bold]

Hi kat,

First let me say that your curiousity, openness, and desire for God are rare and precious gifts; it made my day reading your post.

'Catholic doctrine' is not an interpretation of the Bible. Rather, it is the whole body of formulas that contain (as best as they can) the faith of the Church. Doctrine is a necessary instrument for bringing the same faith to the whole world, and to maintain the unity of the Church.

The Bible is not the only, the original, or the final source of revelation for Christians. Jesus is the original Revelation, and his disciples, altogether helped by the Holy Spirit, constitute the Church (a.k.a. his 'bride', or his 'body'). The Church is the guardian and herald of this revelation, with the Pope as its visible head.

The Bible is not a condensed collection of formulas in the same way that doctrine is. It is much richer--it is a living Word. The New Testament contains the preaching of the first Christians. The preaching came before the Bible and before doctrine.

Catholic doctrine comes from the faith of the Church--what has been held "always and everywhere by all"--both what was recorded in the Bible, and that which was not recorded.

"Bible-only" Christians argue that the Bible must be complete because "God wouldn't have given us only a part of his Word." But Catholics do not believe we only have "part" of the Word. Rather, the whole Word of God, Jesus Christ, lives in the Church--his disciples. The Bible is central to our faith, but it is not the ultimate (exclusive) source of Catholic faith.

----------------

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a comprehensive summary of Catholic teaching. You will notice that it's FULL of Bible references.

If you hunger for more, talk to a priest and ask about a Good Catholic adult education class.

God bless you, kat.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 10, 2005.


I hate irony .

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 10, 2005.

kat,i tell you one thing

DON'T ever ever ever listen to what those people of this site tell you

catholic doctrine:

1/contraceptives=> evil!(so we all should get aids??? a very irresponsible teaching...)

2/if you are married you MUST have children if you can(who are they to tell how i have to organise my life?)

3/oral sex=>evil!(maybe because they never tried it??)

4/church and pope are infaillable(were they also infaillable during the time of indulgences,crusades,inquisitions,and when they red the bible in latin?)

5/anything that has to do with nudity,sex or anything in that way outside of marriage=>evil!

6/abortion of zygotes=>evil!(then every ejaculation is a genocide...)

JESUS DID NEVER TALK ABOUT THE RCC NOR DID HE ESTABLISH IT,HE NEVER TALKED ABOUT GIVING THEM FULL AUTHORITY TO TEACH THINGS BESIDE THE BIBLE,HE SAID THAT NOBODY DENY OR ADD ANYTHING TO THE BIBLE,HE NEVER SAID THAT YOU HAD TO BE PART OF THE RCC TO BE PART OF HIS CHURCH,HIS BODY OF BELIEVERS,I CAN TELL YOU TONS AND TONS OF THINGS THAT ARE WRONG WITH THE RCC BUT I CAN'T POST IT HERE BECAUSE IT WILL BE DELETED ANYWAY,YES SCRIPURA SOLA IS THE ONLY CORRECT FORM OF TRADITIONAL CHRISTIANITY(=>CALLED ZWINGLIANISM,AT LEAST AS FAR AS I KNOW )

*RCC=> ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 10, 2005.


The essential point you miss is that the Bible IS Catholic doctrine. Jesus founded a Church. One Church for all men. He gave that Church true doctrine, not in the form of a book, but by oral teaching and preaching. It was because of this doctrine received from the mouth of God Himself that the Apostles in turn were able to preach such doctrinal truth, and to explain it in their pastoral correspondence. There is nothing in the written New Testament that the Church was not already teaching before the New Testament texts were written. And the Church today would still be teaching everything that is in the New Testament, even if it had never been written down at all.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 10, 2005.


The irresponcible teachign that contraceptives are wrogn and all of us wll get aids as a result is flawed. I mean, come on do you relay think all of us are out htere havign sex with multiple partners? soeme of us are ocntent to limit our sexual activity to few, as few as one parner per lifetime... thats why the CaTHOLIC cHRUHC ALSO TEAHCES NO SEX TLL MARRIAGE, IN FACT...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 10, 2005.

Dear Kat,

"Doctrine" is really all about *relationship*. It isn't a bunch of dry teachings or laws, it is about our relationship with the living God. For example, Jesus being truly Divine (God) means that He is totally trustworthy and worthy of your love and service. Jesus being truly human (man) means that He is also your brother, a Companion in suffering, and a Friend who knows what you are going through. Transubstantiation means that this same Jesus is really there when you receive the Host of Communion, and that He lives in you and you are really His Body. The doctrine of infant Baptism means God's grace and love come to us even before we can understand them.

Do you see? Doctrine is all about how much Jesus loves you.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 10, 2005.


the bible isn't the doctrice of the RCC,it's the doctrine of jesus

jesus founded a church,anyone who would follow him would be part of this church(and not everyone who is part of this church is a follower of him like the catholics teach),this church isn't a building,nor an insitution,this church is the spiritual body,community of all the followers of jesus

this church is supposed to spread his words and his teachings,but somewhere along the way,many years after jesus and peter,there came people who saw they could use these words to manipulate the people,to gain big profit out of the people etc...

the catholic church was established as an religious intitution institution....

i suggest you all find a NEUTRAL,NON-CATHOLIC source on the internet about all the misdeeds of the RCC during the centuries,before the middle ages,during the middle ages and after

i really have nothing against christianity but you really aren't aware of the history of the RCC,i only want to help to open your eyes and see the truth,the historical truth,the facts,things proved with evidence

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 10, 2005.


Dear sdqa,

I don't think you have yet developed an understanding of the awesome holiness of God, and certainly don't understand the concept of chastity. Perhaps over the years God will open you up to these concepts. And if you ever get married to a Godly woman, you will experience first hand that sex isn't just about recreation. (Believe me, I had to learn that myself.)

Meanwhile, please go find a good Zwinglian site on the internet, and talk to them. In modern days they are probably known as Swiss Reformed, or just the Reformed Church. Because, why are you wasting your time on a Catholic forum if you dislike the Catholic faith so much?

Have a blessed journey: may Christ guide you and give you wisdom.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 10, 2005.


well thanks michael,finally someone who's catholic and doesn't have a problem with protestants

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 10, 2005.


Hi kat,

People have given you slightly different answers (ignore sdqa, he is just a little frothing animal), so you might be a little bit confused. I want to try and show how Paul's and Michael's and my own understanding are not different.

Paul wrote, "the Bible IS Catholic doctrine." Paul is right. My only point in my first reply is that the Bible is not simply doctrine. Importantly, it stands in need of explanation--"The Spirit said to Philip, 'Go and join up with that chariot.' Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, 'Do you understand what you are reading?' He replied, 'How can I, unless someone instructs me?' So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him" (Act 8:29-31). Also, the Bible is only infallible, Catholic doctrine when it is read by the community of disciples in One Body.

The doctrine of the later Councils and Encyclicals, while it is not an "interpretation" of the Bible, does show how the Church reads her Bible--in the Spirit in which it was written.

Michael wrote, "'Doctrine' is really all about *relationship*." This is true. But again we must distinguish between, on the one hand, the faith, hope, and love of the whole Church (which is the relationship) and the "teachings and laws" (which serve the relationship).

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 10, 2005.


Ha! sdqa, I love protestants. They believe in Jesus too.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 10, 2005.

Nobody ever said a Protestant had to hate and harrass Catholics.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 10, 2005.

i don't hate catholics as people

but i do hate murder,corrupcy,lies,manipulations,...etc...etc

so i think that it's pretty obvious then that i also hate the RCC

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 10, 2005.


KAT, TELL ME THAT PHIL IS NOT READING THIS!

-- MARINA (hellorina@aol.com), January 10, 2005.


i suggest you all find a NEUTRAL,NON-CATHOLIC source on the internet about all the misdeeds of the RCC during the centuries,before the middle ages,during the middle ages and after - sdqa

A lot of us have sdqa. But there is a big differenec between the deeds of sinners who call themselves members of the Catholic Church and the Church's teachings.

Besides, "NEUTRAL,NON-CATHOLIC source on the internet" do provide a better and more objective perspective of the "misdeeds". Many times, they even show how these "misdeeds" have been blown out of proportion by enemies of the Church.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 10, 2005.


i suggest you all find a NEUTRAL,NON-CATHOLIC source on the internet about all the misdeeds of the RCC during the centuries,before the middle ages,during the middle ages and after - sdqa

First things first....there is no neutral source when talking about catholics or any form of christianity. Bottom line religion is such an emotional and heated topic everyone has a more than strong feeling for it, and that leeds into manipulation of facts. My question wasn't about the pope being infalable.....it was more like what can catholic doctrine tell me that the bible can't. What I'm basically saying is that my question wasn't and invitation to knock my faith or try and sway my beliefs. I am simply trying to find out .....in order to believe the catholic faith.....is there much more than simply knowing the bible. also you seem to find it easy to deny hating catholics.....but at the very same time you say you hate the very heart of thier beliefs. That just seems like a contradiction.

To all those who answered my question...thank you....But there are a few things i personally disagree in catholic catecism. In order to be a "true catholic" do i have to agree with everything? From looking at life, religion and the bible I find comfort in the catholic faith. And bottom line there is no "church" that i am going to find perfect. I guess my question boils down to is it wrong????

PS marina NO!

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.


kat,i tell you one thing-

DON'T ever ever ever listen to what those people of this site tell you

catholic doctrine:

1/contraceptives=> evil!(so we all should get aids??? a very irresponsible teaching...)

2/if you are married you MUST have children if you can(who are they to tell how i have to organise my life?)

3/oral sex=>evil!(maybe because they never tried it??)

4/church and pope are infaillable(were they also infaillable during the time of indulgences,crusades,inquisitions,and when they red the bible in latin?)

5/anything that has to do with nudity,sex or anything in that way outside of marriage=>evil!

6/abortion of zygotes=>evil!(then every ejaculation is a genocide...)

JESUS DID NEVER TALK ABOUT THE RCC NOR DID HE ESTABLISH IT,HE NEVER TALKED ABOUT GIVING THEM FULL AUTHORITY TO TEACH THINGS BESIDE THE BIBLE,HE SAID THAT NOBODY DENY OR ADD ANYTHING TO THE BIBLE,HE NEVER SAID THAT YOU HAD TO BE PART OF THE RCC TO BE PART OF HIS CHURCH,HIS BODY OF BELIEVERS,I CAN TELL YOU TONS AND TONS OF THINGS THAT ARE WRONG WITH THE RCC BUT I CAN'T POST IT HERE BECAUSE IT WILL BE DELETED ANYWAY,YES SCRIPURA SOLA IS THE ONLY CORRECT FORM OF TRADITIONAL CHRISTIANITY(=>CALLED ZWINGLIANISM,AT LEAST AS FAR AS I KNOW )

*RCC=> ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.


this was my first post about the catholic doctrinces,you probably didn't read it kat

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

> "JESUS DID NEVER TALK ABOUT THE RCC NOR DID HE ESTABLISH IT,HE NEVER TALKED ABOUT GIVING THEM FULL AUTHORITY TO TEACH THINGS BESIDE THE BIBLE"

A: The facts have been presented to you repeatedly. If you are not seeking the truth, but only seeking to legitimize your rebellion against the faith of your parents, you have come to the wrong place. If you read the Bible with open eyes and an open heart, you would soon come home to the Church Christ founded for you.

> "HE SAID THAT NOBODY DENY OR ADD ANYTHING TO THE BIBLE"

A: No, He didn't. John made that statement, not Jesus, and the statement does not refer to the Bible. How could it, since the Bible didn't exist when the statement was written? The statement refers to the text within which it appears, the visionary, prophetic text which we know as the Book of Revelation.

> "HE NEVER SAID THAT YOU HAD TO BE PART OF THE RCC TO BE PART OF HIS CHURCH,HIS BODY OF BELIEVERS"

A: Again! The body of believers was and still is defined by UNITY of belief. One cannot rebel against a body, reject the beliefs which define a body, separate oneself from the very name of a body, and still claim to be part of that same body. And Christ plainly stated His intention that all men belong to the one Church He personally founded upon the Apostles. All other churches are counterfeit, far removed from the fullness of truth that exists in His Church alone.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 11, 2005.


"To all those who answered my question...thank you....But there are a few things i personally disagree in catholic catecism. In order to be a "true catholic" do i have to agree with everything? From looking at life, religion and the bible I find comfort in the catholic faith. And bottom line there is no "church" that i am going to find perfect. I guess my question boils down to is it wrong????"

kat,

Thank you for returning and for being very mature and open. You are absolutely right when you say, "there is no neutral source when talking about catholics or any form of christianity." In truth, there is no "neutral source" whenever God is involved. One must be a very cautious, slow, deliberate discerner for the Spirit to work. We have to listen to our hearts AND our minds.

You should know that you are loved, Kat, and like Jesus says, the Father has counted every hair on your head, and will not allow you to die if you follow him with all your heart.

Now consider the time when Jesus spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:1-42). The Samaritans did not have a complete revelation like the Jews did; so Jesus tells her plainly, "You people [Samaritans] worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation [Jesus himself] is from the Jews," (John 4:22).

Jesus did not condemn the woman, either for her incomplete, Samaritan belief, or for the sins of her past life. Instead, he offered her the "living water," absolute faith in himself as "the Messiah [who] is coming." When she came to believe in him, she "left her water jar and went into the town" to tell the people about the man who saw inside of her soul. The water jar is symbolic of her past life--her life of isolation and individualism (she came to the well late in the day, to avoid human contact).

What does this have to do with you? Right now you read the Catechism, and many things conflict with your old and cherised opinions. Nobody condemns you for this--you new interest in the Catholic faith is already cause for the angels in Heaven to rejoice.

But what you are asking, now, is essentially this: "Do I have to give up my water jar?" You are asking whether your conversion must be complete; or whether it can be partial. Remember how Peter started to walk on water, but then he became afraid, and he sank, because his conversion was not complete.

I believe I speak for the universal teaching of the Catholic Church, throughout all the ages, when I say: yes, you must give up your water jar. The living water of Christ within the Catholic Church needs to completely replace the water of the well which will always leave you "thirsty again."

As the Catechism teaches, "171 The Church, 'the pillar and bulwark of the truth', faithfully guards 'the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints'. She guards the memory of Christ's words; it is she who from generation to generation hands on the apostles' confession of faith. As a mother who teaches her children to speak and so to understand and communicate, the Church our Mother teaches us the language of faith in order to introduce us to the understanding and the life of faith."

As Catholics, we are not people who have a certain list of beliefs or opinions. Rather, we enter into a completely new Society--the Earthly, imperfect, progressing pre-figure of the Kingdom of God. This Church, this "society," does not belong to the world, and will not conform to the world. On the contrary: when we are baptized, we are called by God to work for the transformation of the world. (We cannot do that if we let ourselves be 'bossed around' by popular culture, or our own disordered desires).

But I hope you haven't run away yet. You see, the Church, as "Mother," seeks only the human perfection of her members--a perfection with God as its destiny. This means that the God, in the Church, will never ask you to do something impossible.

I hope that, even if you have doubts, at least you want to come to believe everything in the Catechism. Because if the Church is not trustworthy, and the Bible is everywhere misused, and God has left us no True Church, then we have surely been abandoned by God and our Salvation is forfeit.

But Catholic faith does not start from this presumption of distrust, doubt, and finally despair. Catholic faith begins when we realize that we are "sheep" in need of a "shepherd" (Mark 6:34). We can only have one shepherd (John 10:16) and one Master (Luke 16:13). So the question is: if you want to be a Catholic, can your loyalties be divided?

God bless you, kat. I pray for your deepest joy and for the Lord to guide you. Please pray for us.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 11, 2005.


SQDA! Silence your heathen mouth!

Why the hell are you here? You truly are a mouthpiece of satan. You don't even believe that Jesus is the son of God. It's one thing if you were genuinly trying to save peoples souls. But instead you want to have everyone believe your left-wing crackpot liberal socialist train of thought and your commuinist immoral ideoligy. Unlike you, I am not a mere niave child who will believe anything i hear and then what I do not like, manipulate it. Maybe before you try and convert people to your sqdaism you should try growing up a little bit. What you are doing here is pure evil. You are trying to sway people from Jesus. I didn't ask you for your opinion on the RCC, nor do i want it. Your eternal soul may be just a joke to you but you are messing with people in a way that they shouldn't be messed with.

Please stop your ungodly posts.

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.


anon thanks again for your response

My catholic faith has not faltered. For me to understand the catholic church completly i am just going to have to study up on catecism and educate myself of all the matters that need to be adressed in my own mind. Thank you again

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.


hey kat

i posted this under HERETICS but just in case you missed it...

i must say, sdqa and punker and all the others in sdqa's multiple personality seem to be on this forum to get the attention they aren't getting from their peers at home. punker poses a question and it gets answered, only for him (or her)to give us a lecture. it's a trick; it's a way to show off how "cool" he is because he believes in certain things that go against the norm. anarchy rocks!!! woo hoo the status quo is evil!!! woo hoo catholics are conspiring to ruin your lives by taking away your right to sin!!! woo hoo

how can i put this more plainly...

GROW UP

"naive" and "communist" and "liberal"... aren't these all signs of immaturity?!!!

"I once was a liberal... and then I grew up." -Marina

It does sound like sdqa is a minor.

-- MARINA (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.


it is true wisdom comes with age

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.

as if you're an old fogey!!!! dude, if only they knew....

-- Rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

And yet on the lips of children the Lord finds perfect praise to foil his enemies.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), January 11, 2005.

true true...from the mouth of babes.

teenagers are a whole nother story

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.


kat, don't forget, we were teenagers once, like barely years ago. let's pretend that since we're mothers now, we have lots and lots of wisdom. remember -10 IQ points... ha ha ha

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

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