I open this thread as a basic discssioin.

what do you all think of Harry Potter Books and Movies?

I'll remain neutral, but wll comment n the vlaidity of variosu poitns, be they pro or con.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 10, 2005

Answers

I open this thread as a basic discssioin.

what do you all think of Harry Potter Books and Movies?

I'll remain neutral, but wll comment n the vlaidity of variosu poitns, be they pro or con.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 10, 2005.

link

-- jake (j@k.e), January 10, 2005.

The movies aren't so bad. Parents need to be careful about letting kids under 13ish go in. The books are much different. Perhaps not the first two, but they become more mature.

There are countless thousands of movies that are inappropriate for children for any number of reasons. The inclusion of wizardry and magic are no exceptions. Where was the outcry from parents when all the other movies came out?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 11, 2005.

Some of the coplaints formthr Agelus magazine onien where dismisable, Jake...

for instance, whnt ye complain that the setitng for the potter Novels is "The Real world"... unfortunaltey, mahy bokk for childen and dults are set in the real world. everythign form sherlock Holmes to Modern Day Rhymeing books thta teah baut Bords... it isnt seen as a fair objection since the realworld can be a setitng for fiction wihtout diverting much attentiona way form the lien of reality and fantasey.

The JFK analogy itself doesnt hold up, since it was more than just set in the real world, it was set amidts actual historical events. Harry Potter may mention palces like the North Sea and London, but the mere use of these places asBackdrops is not equel to the depicting of histrical events innacuratldy, suhc as in JFK, unless rowlings is basing her books n a rela lad named Harry Poter whoe lif is NOT follwign a similar tract...

Likewise, there is htis...

A clear example of this vagueness is Sirius Black, the escaped murderer who turns out to be Harry's "godfather," falsely accused and wrongfully convicted. Throughout the majority of book three, he is shown to be a dangerous and evil wizard, though in the end we find out how much he cared for and helped Harry's parents before they died.

the mroal ambiguity they seak of is not so vuage ehe after all...

Just because they THOUGHT he was an evil killer does not mean he is, and the plot twist, that he was wrongfully convicted and senteced for crimes ne never commited, is not he same as claiming his immoral actiosnhere actally good. The latter is moral vaugery, the former s mere mistake of personality, which bth hapens n real life,a nd makes for good fiction, andmany fo the stories we encoruage chilen to see feature such surprises...

all this said, i do agree wihhte aritlce in other areas, suh as the lying to auhtrity,and depiction of Snape as evil because he wants the hcidlen to obey the school rules.

But htose objecitosn voiced above are rejected by me based on logic.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 11, 2005.

Harry Potter....

Is this really harmless fantasy? Or is there more to the MAGICK than most lay people realize? And does it even matter in the lives and hearts of our children?

The answer, as I hope to share, is a resounding YES! It matters very much.

As a Christian, I can see that the problems are even deeper than the absence of any real good moral lessons, but for now I want to concentrate on the issues that effect all people, not just Christians.

As far as I can see, this “wildly popular” series is far more than just good fun. Many have claimed that these books are a great example of “good verses evil.” This is far from the truth. I find that within the pages of Harry Potter..,is a thinly disguised teaching of occultism.

This scares me, because unlike other fantasies, which end with the story, occultism does exist in our real world, and children can take their peeked curiosity out into the real world, one day, and actually find this stuff.

Some are celebrating that their children are reading books! Surely this is better for them than watching television. While I agree that television can often be a spiritually and morally bankrupt wasteland, so are the Harry Potter books.

There is a close connection to nearly every facet of the occult-- alchemy, astrology, spells, mediumship and other pagan practices. I hope to demonstrate how the Harry Potter books desensitize our children to the forbidden and dangerous world of pagan practices. I don’t believe that only Christians should resist this encroachment of darkness into our increasingly paginated culture. While Christians can walk in the spirit of wisdom and strength of the Lord to escape the negative influence of these things, who will protect the hearts, minds and souls of the rest of our children whom matter just as much?

Many pagan groups are singing the praises of J.K. Rowling’s books and some young people have reported their desire to become witches. This, in my opinion, is serious business.

There have been many, many books written on witchcraft and the occult, but none, in my opinion, have been so ingeniously designed and disguised to attract our young children like this. Many publishers have even released classroom discussion guides and study books to help teachers who are reading these books to the children. This will help teachers to lead their students to the “mysteries of Harry’s world,” including its occult themes. My question is this; “Does Harry Potter belong in the classroom?”

Karen Gounaud, President of Family Friendly Libraries (An organization that monitors inappropriate reading material), says that Rowling’s books are unacceptable. According to her, they contain a great deal of symbolism, language and activities honoring witchcraft.

In reading these books for myself, I immediately noticed that the kids in these novels--lie, steal, and they take revenge. This in my opinion is a morally defunct world that J.K. Rowling presents. This really does disturb me and it interferes with the moral lessons I try to teach my children.

Even Scarier, is the way in which J.K Rowling came up with her idea for her books in the first place. Her own personal story as to how Harry was born is quite interesting. Without any warning, she “suddenly saw Harry” very, very clearly, in her mind. She claims that Harry just strolled into her mind. She says she really did feel as though he just walked up and introduced himself. She seems to believe in the magic of this fact.

Rowling says, with respect to her “vision” that somehow she just knew he was a wizard, although--she notes--that he didn’t know he was a wizard. She pondered on this, wondering how it could be, and before she knew it, she found herself writing.

Most people who read these books believe that everything contained within the pages are a product of Rowling’s great imagination. For these Potter supporters, they believe that all the negative talk about occultism is simply ridiculous! Most believe these books are harmless because they exist in a fantasy world. Rowling herself claims that she has no interest in the occult and hasn’t studied it for her novel.

In a July 2000 Associated press article, for instance, she said, “I truly am bemused that anyone who has read the books could think that I am a proponent of the occult in a serious way. I don’t believe in witchcraft, in the sense that they’re talking about, at all.” In an online interview she explained that, “I don’t believe in magic in the way I describe it in my books. I mean, I don’t believe in the wand waving sort of thing.” This begs the question, and “then in what sense does she believe in witchcraft?”

We know that she believes that the number seven is somehow mystical and magical, and according to her own ex- husband, she planned the full series of seven books because she believes that the number seven has magical associations.

You might ask, “ So, what’s so wrong with that?” More significant to me would be the fact that not everything in the Potter books is imaginary with respect to its magic. At least one-third of the sorcery-related material that appears in her books are actually things people use to believe, according to Rowling. But what she fails to point out is that a vast amount of the occult material she has borrowed from historical sources still plays a role in modern paganism and witchcraft.

Is this where we want our children ‘s inquiring minds to be led?

Harry, along with his friends, discovers that a man named Nicholas Flamel created the stone they are looking for. What most won’t realize is that Nicholas Flamel really existed! He was a French alchemist who allegedly succeeded in making the Philosopher’s stone through the esoteric BOOK OF ABRAHAM THE JEW. Alchemists have, over the centuries, believed that Flamel did indeed create the philosopher’s stone, and in so doing---never died.

Book 1 goes as far as to teach some of Flamel's beliefs about death. Dumbledore, Flamel’s partner in alchemy in the book, tells Harry that Flamel and his wife-Perenelle (Also not a fictitious character) are not afraid of dying. Why? He goes on, “ Because to them, dying would be like going to bed after a very, very long day. After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.”

The book “Magicians, Seers, and Mystics” reports that Flamel, in fact, felt this way: “Nicholas Flamel, after his discovery of the Philosopher’s Stone, would have had no temptation to evade death; for he regarded death merely as the transition to a better state.

Isn’t this religion?

Such beliefs like these echoes current pagan/Wiccan thinking. Witchcraft and Paganism Today writes:

“The one who has departed has left for the Summerlands, the fairy realm in the west where he or she will be refreshed before the cycle of rebirth [reincarnation] starts again...Death as we know it is but a transition-an initiation.

Celebrated witch, Starhawk declares: “Death is not an end; it is a stage in the cycle that leads on to rebirth. After death, the human soul...grows young and is made ready to be born again.” (Yikes!! I’m sorry, but this just flies in the face of Christian thinking).

To me, this is an inaccurate description and spiritually dangerous view of death. Something that I don’t want taught to my child. Reincarnation stands at odds with Christianity. In my opinion, there are far more Christian children who can suffer the ill effects of Wiccan theology; than there are Wiccan children who would suffer any ill effects of Christian theology. Yet we are not permitted to teach Christianity in our schools. Something smells deceptively wrong in this. What is truly bothersome is that most teachers and parents alike are not aware of anything deceptive in the pages of these seemingly harmless fairytales.

Let’s talk about Muggles. According to the Potter books, Muggles are humans with no magical abilities whatsoever. As completely non-magic folks, they are “unfortunately” portrayed as narrow-minded and callous people who are unable to grasp the glory of magic. They are also perceived as incredibly slow and unable to understand truth, although, as one witch says, “They’re not completely stupid.”

Let’s not forget whom these Muggles are (they are us), and let’s not ignore the subtle, but clear implication here. Let’s realize that this suggestive writing is not escaping our children either. Talk about “low self-esteem” building! Our children are learning that although it is bad not to be a witch... at least we are not viewed as “completely stupid!”

Rowling’s thorough understanding of occultism becomes obvious in her books when we look closer. Some of the information she uses is not widely known by people like us, but rather, by those who are actually involved in occultism.

In fact, Rowling’s thorough understanding of occultism’s intricacies is so obvious in her books that during one radio call-in interview show, a self-professed “magus” (a male practitioner of magick) excitedly asked Rowling if she herself was a member of the “Craft” (i.e., Wicca). When Rowling answered no, the caller seemed shocked and replied, “[Well], you’ve done your homework quite well.”

Rowling uses countless references to both ancient and modern occultism and she sometimes hides this in people’s names or she will even disguise them in minor characters.

Adalbert Waffling is mentioned by Rowlings. He is the author of the real book “Magical Theory” and he is included on Harry’s list of required reading! Albert was a French pseudo-mystic who claimed he could foretell the future and read people’s thoughts. He eventually showed his followers a letter that he claimed was sent to him by Christ via St. Michael. He also invoked demons using mystical prayers that he wrote himself. The Church eventually condemned him to perpetual imprisonment because he was convicted of sorcery in 744-745 A.D.:

“In the middle of the VIII century of the Christian era the very notorious Archbishop Adalbert of Magdeburg, famous as a few in the annals of magic, appeared before his judges. He was ultimately convicted, by the second council of Rome presided over by Pope Zacharia-of using during his performances of ceremonial magic the names of the seven spirits...”

It continues until at last,

“However, as the wonders wrought by the sourcerer were not of a character that would permit of their classification among “miracles by grace, and to the glory of God,” they were declared UNHOLY.”

Conversely, in the book, Dumbledore explains this in a speech he delivers to the students at Hogwarts-which coincidently, was founded at the same time that the Church convicted Adalbert. Dumbledore explains to the children:

“You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago--The precise date is uncertain--by the four greatest witches and wizards of the age...They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution.”

To me, Harry is so far from perfect, that it amazes me that people claim the stories have good moral lessons. Actually, the moral lessons in Rowling's books are unclear and patently unbiblical. It is true that there are fleeting moments throughout her stories where the good characters actually behave in a way consistent with being good. But on many other occasions, these same characters act quite contrary to the biblical definition of "goodness." I find this most apparent in Harry.

His image as a good boy disintegrates early in book One when he disobeys Madame Hooch, the instructor hired by Hogwarts to teach students broom-riding techniques. She directly tells her students, including Harry, not to ride their brooms while she takes a student to the infirmary. But Harry, in reaction to Draco Malfoy's jeers, grabs a broom and streaks into the sky. He is caught by Professor McGonagall, but instead of being punished, is rewarded by being put on the Quidditch team. (Quidditch is a wizard's soccer-like sport that is played with self-propelled airborne balls and flying brooms)

On the same day that Harry ignores Hooch's directive, he breaks two more rules by agreeing to fight Draco in a wizard's duel at midnight in the schools trophy room. Fighting, especially fights in which spells are used, are against Hogwart's rules. Moreover, students are to be in their dorms at night. Never-the-less, Harry sneaks out with his favorite rule-breaking companion, Ron Weasly.

The lone dissenter is Hermione, Ron and Harry's aquaintance. She reminds Harry that every time a student is caught breaking a rule, merit points are taken away from the dorm in which they live. She tries to reason with the two boys: "Think of the points you will lose if you are caught...you are bound to be caught...It's really very selfish of you..."

But Harry's response?: "It's really none of your business!"

We also see Ron casting integrity to the wind as he instructs Harry in the art of wizard dueling. Both Harry and Draco have agreed to the terms: "Wands only--no contact" But just before Ron and Harry sneak out at night, Harry asks, "What if I wave my wand and nothing happens?" In direct contradiction to a promise given Draco, Ron answers, "Throw it away and punch him in the nose!"

Although Draco never shows up, the school's caretaker does, but Harry and Ron avoid capture by slipping into an off-limits corridor that houses a monstrous, three-headed hellbound guarding a trapdoor leading to the philosopher's stone. But where Rowling could have demonstrated how breaking the rules could be harmful, she ignores the rule breaking and instead begins a new chapter. As a matter-of-fact, Harry and Ron thought that meeting the three-headed dog was an exciting adventure, and were quite keen to have another one.

Next, a very serious regulation is broken when Harry sneaks into the library, yet again at night, to have a peek at the Dark Magic books kept in the school's restricted section. Harry "feels" that he has a good reason to ignore this rule: he must find out about Nicholas Flammel. Again, rather than following any objective standard of right or wrong, Harry lets his own self-interests and subjective rationalizations determine his actions.

By page 255 of book One, Harry is doing just about what ever he wants to do, making decisions for himself based on what he "feels" is best for him.

Only Hermoine, an oft-ridiculed student, seems bothered by all the rule breaking.

Hermoine: "Don't you care about Gryffindor, do you only care about yourselves? I don't want Slytherine to win the house cup, and.. you'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall..."

Harry: "Go away."

Rowling herself throughout the narrative portions of Book One, refers to Hermoine as "hissing...like an angry goose," having a "bad temper" and being a "bossy know-it-all."

Sadly, Hermione succumbs to peer pressure after overhearing Ron and Harry say she is disliked at the school and that “she’s a nightmare.” Hermione endears herself to them by telling a “downright lie” to a teacher in order to cover up for the boys: “Harry was speechless.

Hermione was the last person to do anything against the rules, and here she was, pretending she had, to get them out of trouble.” This morally troubling scene concludes with Hermione and the boys becoming friends.

In yet another scene, Rowling writes: "Excuses, alibis, and wild cover-up stories chased each other around Harry's brain, each more feeble than the last. He couldn't see how they were going to get out of trouble this time."

The option of simply telling the truth never even crosses Harry's mind, but he cannot come up with a lie either. Significantly, this one instance in which Harry's knack for lying does not work quickly enough is the one instance that he and his companions are punished with detention after school hours.

The three-fold moral message that Rowling presents through her characters is clear: (1) rules are made to be broken if they do not serve one's own self interests. (2) rules need not be obeyed if no good reason seems to exist for them; and (3) lying is an effective and acceptable means of acheiving a desired end.

Although Harry may have benevolent motives (e.g., wanting to keep someone from taking the Philosopher’s Stone, or trying to keep Draco from hurting a student), Harry ultimately is simply following his own self-interests.

The fact is that J.K.Rowling actually did not write these books for children. In my opinion this is obvious. By the third and fourth books, things are so dark, I shudder to think of the children who have been exposed. An old post from my files... snippets/sources protected.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 11, 2005.

At what age is it appropriate for a person to view a movie with nudity? Better question, at what age is exposure to nudity not a sin?

We use "appropriate" to mean whether a person is mature enough to realize the nature of what he/she is viewing, to distinguish between reality and fantasy, truth and fiction, and acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

Is magic/witchcraft any more dangerous than pornography? Sin is not a matter of rejecting fantasy but about rejecting morality. It is no more appropriate for an adult to watch Law and Order than it is for a child to read Harry Potter. It is no more appropriate for an adult to watch "reality TV," than it is for a child to dream of casting spells. Again, where are all the parents when they aren't condemning Harry Potter???

They're in front of the television watching CSI: Special Victim's Unit.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 11, 2005.

What a ridiculous analogy Luke.

Teachers are reading Harry Potter to our children in school!

I'd rather that the teacher let them watch Law and Order.

Harry Potter is a more insidious work of the devil!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 11, 2005.

What a ridiculous view, Faith. You would reduce your options to choosing between the lesser of two evils??! That is ridiculous; your choices are still evil. Turn the movies off!

Luke's was ridiculous? The only times I know about viewing nudity were in the Garden right before the self-realization of being nude, birth, doctor's exams, and the wedding night. That doesn't seem so ridiculous (you could factor in the weight issues, though).

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 12, 2005.

rod,

Did I reduce my options? No.

I was humoring Luke. That was his analogy.

I don't have to play.

But I can certainly see the evil teaching and subtle deception of Harry Potter. And I am sorry--but he doesn't belong in the schools. These books are de-sensitizing our kids to some very real danger that truly exists out there.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 12, 2005.

Oops.,sorry for the double post. I waited forever because the server was busy and didn't think it went through. Stupid server!

Elpidio, you can delete the first one if you want.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 12, 2005.

I know that this thread is probably dead, but still I believe that somethings should be set right. Firstly, thank you Luke and Rod, for being pretty much the only ones who have it right. Faith, thank you for making such a long statement but you were completely out of line! Not only were allegations ridiculous, but you are using everything you can to prove your statement. If you are saying that she is evil and practicing dark magic and is corrupting our youth, then at least make it so it doesn't sound so.....Christian. I don't have a religion and I know for a fact that I am younger than you, I am going to admit this, but, coming from a child, but I find nothing wrong with the books at all. If it was including how to practice magic or something like that, then I would be able to see how you believe but just because the series is going to have seven books and all that stuff that you were rambling on about, you, apparently, have done your homework. I find stories that are about fantasy and magical lands and stuff that is believable and fun, wonderful. But, you just seem to ruin it a tad. Believe me when I say that I don't think you have everything wrong, but you definitely don't have everything right, either. I am proud to say that I have read all five books and am vigorously awaiting the next, so please, don't ruin it for people that still believe that the magic that you can escape to in stories could happen.

Elizabeth

-- Elizabeth (kittydoll13@yahoo.com), January 31, 2005.

The magic in Potter sint real, evem rowlings, the series originator, said its all fake...

That said, I resented the thread for objective arugment, Faith usually cuts-and-pastes. i objected to the complaisnts like "Its set int he real world" while maintianign as legitimate problems with charecters lying and breang rules.

I tried to stay balanced at least...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 31, 2005.

First book was good, went progressively downhill from there. If the parents are doing their job educating their children, they shouldn't be a problem.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 31, 2005.

Dear Elizabeth..,

I appreciate your comment, however--I stand by my convictions and my children do not read Harry Potter books nor collect anything that is connected to Harry Potter. And they don't even care....My twelve year old daughter was in third grade a couple of years ago and her teacher was actually reading those books to the class.

I went to the teacher with my concerns and after she understood my points--{things she was unaware of], she decided not to read them any more. I am glad, because I would have had to find a way to take my daughter out of class during that time, and I didn't want to embarrass my daughter.

The difference between Harry Potter fantasy and say the fantasy you find in a story like the Wizzard of Oz, is that children cannot go out into the world and find the "Wizzard of Oz" in real life--but they can indeed find the Occult and even some of the places in Harry Potter, which actually exist. Even the list of required reading is made up of real true books that kids can go out and find in the real world.

Before the parents can educate or protect their children from this subtley deceptive work--they must first understand it themselves. Most people are in the dark about it.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 31, 2005.

Ah! but Faith. We do live in "Oz". There really are such people like the Scarecrow, the Tin-Man, and the Cowardly Lion. There are bright intelligent people, shy-timid and warm hearted folks, and cowards who become heros in real life. We can find those people when we look for them or even stumble across them. And, there are evil people and their followers, as well as warm, beautiful, and attractive characters who can steer the naive people away from God. Yes, we do live like those in the Wizard of Oz.

No! you ain't anything like Dorothy, so don't even ask, Faith.

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 31, 2005.

As for me?

I'm more like Toto. Or, better yet, I'm like that soldier up in the tower who has that great line right after the Wicked Witch is watered down to a melted vapor of water, "You killed her...".

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 31, 2005.