'The word “church”meant (and still means) the body of believers. Back then, there was only one way to believe, the Roman Catholic Church. They knew what to believe because the Apostles knew Jesus personally and learned from him. This knowledge remains unchanged to this day. But somewhere along the line, Pride reared its ugly head, and humans started their own “churches” with their own beliefs. You see, “church” started out meaning “The Roman Catholic Church” because it was the one instituted by Jesus, and the only one around. You can’t broaden the meaning to include all churches after the fact. Humans made their own churches and broadened the meaning of Jesus’ words to justify their new churches. If you are such a champion against “manmade-ism” then you would realize that. '

[yes church meant the body of believers,but there was no RCC in the time jesus spoke about 'his church'!!!,there were only people that believed in him,and you said it yourself that church mean the body of believers,so when jesus was talking about 'his church' (the rock upon which he would build his church=>peter) he meant church metaphorically=>the body of believers like you said;but later ppl from the RCC saw these writings(if these writings are true? but i am not going to discuss this...)and they thought he was talking about them ?or what i think just took this from the scriptures and misintrepeted it so that they can say that jesus established their church and ppl believe and attend their church]-sdqa

"The word “church”meant (and still means) the body of believers"

A: That definition is insufficient because it is incomplete. The word "Church" meant (and still means) the body of believers "in the truth". It doesn't mean the body of all who hold some beliefs of their own choosing about Jesus Christ. There is no such body, for a body cannot be composed of believers in conflicting and contradictory doctrines, for such conflicts in belief divide a body and create new bodies, as we plainly see in denominational religion. Therefore, inherent in the term "the Body", or its synonym "the Church", is the necessity of uniformity of belief, without which there cannot be fullness of truth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 05, 2005.

'The word "Church" meant (and still means) the body of believers "in the truth". It doesn't mean the body of all who hold some beliefs of their own choosing about Jesus Christ.'

[out of this definition that we all do agree on we can conclude that jesus wasen't talking about the RCC when he talked about 'his church',he was talking about the body of believers "in the truth"]-sdqa

michael,i don't think you got what i've meant;the catholics claim the jesus established the RCC en refer mostly to the passage when jesus says simon would be the rock on which he would build his church and other passages when jesus is talking about his church

well i posted that that is a misinterpretation and that that is supposed to be taken metaphorically and that the meaning of church is 'body of believers' and everyone here agreed with that,if church means body of believers,then jesus wasen't talking about the RCC in the passages,nor he established it,in fact he wasen't talking about any church as a religious institution,he was talking about his followers,the body of believers

one other thing:

peter did not establish the catholic church,nor was he a pope

peter was the leader of the community of the early christians before the RCC even existed,later other people established the RCC which certainly is NOT the same thing as peter's community of christians

and peter was no pope,he didn't came with the title of pope,nor jesus did,the later establishers of the RCC did and gave peter the title of the first pope because he was the first leader of christians after jesus's death]-sdqa

THESE ARE MY ARGUMENTS----SDQA

catholics claim that their church is the only right one,that jesus christ established their church and that their church is the original christian church and that she has been given full authority...etc

they base these statements on verses in the new testament where jesus spoke about 'his church'

people on the forum(paul m,cameron...)told me that church means the body of believers "in the truth" ...like i always thought

now if church means the body of believers in the truth,then jesus was talking about the body of the believers in the truth instead of the roman catholic church

this means that jesus didn't establish the catholic church,and neither was peter the rock upon the RCC would be built

this we can also see later,that peter's COMMUNITY of christians wasen't called the catholic church and wasen't even close to what the catholic church will be

peter wasen't a pope,he was a leader;he can't be the pope if that title has come to use many years after him,it doesn't mean if the pope's function is to be the leader and peter had also that same function that he's automatically a pope

now for you catholics these things don't really matter,but for us non-catholics and non-catholic christians it does matter;it is direct proof that jesus didn't establish the RCC,that he never even talked about it! he only talked about the body of the believers in the truth,and to be part of that body,you don't have to be part of the RCC;i'm not refering now to certain forms of protestantism that are in conflict with the bible,i'm just denying all the catholic statements with which i have started this post

the body of the believers in the truth doesn't equal the RCC,i know that this is very difficult for the most of you to understand,cos i assume that you all are devouted catholics

everyone who trully accepts and believes in jesus and lives by the way he taught it is part of this body,NOT everyone who is catholic

AND ONCE AGAIN I REPEAT:

JESUS DID NEVER TALK ABOUT THE RCC,NOR ABOUT ANY OTHER CHURCH IN A LITERAL WAY,SO YOU CAN'T SAY THAT YOU HAVE TO BE CATHOLIC TO HAVE TRUE FAITH

actually catholicism hasen't the true interpretations of the scriptures

because they are telling that jesus gave them the authority to make their own commands

because they are telling that jesus established their church and that they are the only true church

WHEN JESUS DID NEVER TALK ABOUT THEIR CHURCH

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 07, 2005.

-- PUNKER (GREG_PISAHOV@HOTMAIL.COM), January 13, 2005

Answers

Jesus never talked about any Church except the Church he personally founded for all men. History plainly recveals that the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church that existed before the 11th century. 1+1=2. It isn't difficult to figure out.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 13, 2005.

SDQA

It would be very stupid for a person to say that they believe in something and then turn around and say that what they believe in is not the truth. Of course the Catholic Church is the ONE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD, a person would not be a Catholic unless they believed it to be true. On the other hand, it would be crazy to believe in something so illogical and flawed. What? would that be a belief in an illusion? Anarchy kind of fits the profile, yes? Then, what would we make of the anarchist?

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 13, 2005.

"History plainly recveals that the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church that existed before the 11th century. 1+1=2. It isn't difficult to figure out."

This is not true... There were many churches in existence before the Catholic Church (which by the way is not the true church) came into existance... The churches of the New Testament were never called the Catholic Church...

"Of course the Catholic Church is the ONE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD, a person would not be a Catholic unless they believed it to be true."

Catholics may "believe" that their Church is the "ONE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD" however, this is not is revealed in God's word... The one "true" church of God does not have a "pope" as it's head... The "only" head of the church is Jesus Christ... You can search far and wide in the New Testament and you will not find the Catholic Church nor her false doctrines...

"On the other hand, it would be crazy to believe in something so illogical and flawed."

Sorry Rod, it is not "illogical and flawed" as you assert. The Catholic Church has never been the true church of God and never will be... There will be millions, no, billions of people on judgment day who will be shocked to learn that they have been deceived...

I can assure you that the Catholic Church is not the church that Jesus promised He would build in the New Testament...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 13, 2005.

Ok, Kevin. I have to ask.

Is your church of Christ the ONE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD???

How about Faith? Is yours?

How about them atheist-anarchist? Is their faith system true?

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 13, 2005.

Rod, your approachign Kevin as a Protestant, and askign if his Protestant Xemonmation is the oen true chirc of God. This implies you beelive he thinks all Protestant Chuehce are OK an has similar veiws as Faith nd David, that beign Born again makes you part of th Inviisble curhc, and th spacific Denomiaton does t mater.

Kevin sina Protestant, hes Chruc of Christ. They veiw the Churhc of Christ as the One True Chrich of God on earth. all others, Catholic,Baptist, Meathodist, Pentacostals, Mormon, ect...all of them false Chruches. Only the Churhc of CHrist is the true Church.

so ues, his is the One true Chruhc of God, in his claim, just as you claim i for the Catholic Churhc.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 14, 2005.

"Ok, Kevin. I have to ask. Is your church of Christ the ONE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD???"

And I have told you just as Zarove did above that this is the case... The church of Christ "is" the one and "only" true church of God... There are no others...

The Catholic Church is a "false" Church and does not resemble the church we read about in the New Testament... Catholics most certainly do not follow Christ... They follow the pope instead who "claims" to be following Christ and this is not the truth...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 15, 2005.

Kevin

Your last post is liable to get us all arguing in circles. We should probably let it rest as it doesn't look like you'll find any Catholics who will come around to agreeing with your point of view.

We are all so obstinate ---

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 16, 2005.

Jim wrote, "Kevin Your last post is liable to get us all arguing in circles. We should probably let it rest as it doesn't look like you'll find any Catholics who will come around to agreeing with your point of view."

You do have that option now don't you...

"We are all so obstinate ---"

And not searching the scriptures I might add for if you did, you would plainly see that many of the doctrines taught by the Catholic Church are not found in God's word...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 16, 2005.

Actually, I'm trying to say that any true believer in their faith system will believer that their flavor of worship is the ONE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD. In other words, everybody is right and nobody is wrong. Try to make logic where logic crumbles. Sounds like "Invincible Ignorance".

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.

"Actually, I'm trying to say that any true believer in their faith system will believer that their flavor of worship is the ONE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD. In other words, everybody is right and nobody is wrong. Try to make logic where logic crumbles. Sounds like "Invincible Ignorance"."

There is only one true church and if it does not have the same plan of salvation or the same type of worship as described in the New Testament it is not the "one true church of God".

I can assure you Rod that the Catholic Church is not that church...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.

Kevin

When I said "we" are obstinate. I meant all of us, you included. I think we can possibly learn from one another, but changing the core of ones belief is almost impossible. It happens to a few along the way for various reasons, but I don't see anybody here ready to make any changes.

I still think "belief" in itself is somewhat out of our control; this inspite of all of the proofs and arguments we make to one another. I don't expect you'ld be able to believe Catholic teaching any more than I could come around to your way of believing.

But I won't denigrate your beliefs.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 17, 2005.

Kevin

I can accept some of your doctrines, but not all. I can accept some of Faith's doctrines, ok maybe I can't.

The point is that we cannot jump around from doctrine to doctrine. There must be only one true belief, not multiple varieties. We worship as we do and no man shall bring asunder, kind of deal.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.

Rod,

"I can accept some of your doctrines, but not all."

All of the doctrines of the church of Christ are Biblical... Just because you do not accept them does not make them unacceptable...

"I can accept some of Faith's doctrines, ok maybe I can't."

This I can understand because some of her doctrines are not found in God's word...

"The point is that we cannot jump around from doctrine to doctrine. There must be only one true belief, not multiple varieties. We worship as we do and no man shall bring asunder, kind of deal."

There is only one doctrine and that is the doctrine of Christ and those who vary from His doctrine do not have God...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.

Jim,

You wrote, "When I said "we" are obstinate. I meant all of us, you included. I think we can possibly learn from one another, but changing the core of ones belief is almost impossible."

If one diligently studies the scriptures concerning a doctrine, they can know the truth for all doctrine can be found in God's word the Bible. It is only your opinion that to change one's belief is "almost impossible"... It is only "almost impossible" if one refuses to look at what God actually says in His word.

"It happens to a few along the way for various reasons, but I don't see anybody here ready to make any changes."

Then why do you continue to post if in your opinion no one here is going to change their mind??? Even if scripture is provided that refutes your position you are unwilling to change your belief??? It is obvious that it is the Catholics here who are unwilling to change their beliefs no matter what scriptural evidence is supplied that refutes their doctrines... I have said and will continue to say that if someone can show me the error of my way, I will change my belief... It appears that there are many here who are not willing to do the same...

"I still think "belief" in itself is somewhat out of our control; this inspite of all of the proofs and arguments we make to one another."

It is not "out of our control" as you assert, it is an unwillingness to see what God actually states in His word concerning a specific doctrine.

"I don't expect you'ld be able to believe Catholic teaching any more than I could come around to your way of believing."

I don't believe Catholic teaching because it is false teaching... Many Catholic beliefs are not found in God's word and I will continue to state this because this is the truth... You do not want to come around to my way of believing because you refuse to even look at what I and others have written concerning your Church...

"But I won't denigrate your beliefs."

So you say... If your belief is not in accordance with God's word, then you must change your belief to coicide with what God has plainly revealed... If I call the Catholic Church a "false Church", I don't just make assumptions, I prove it... You can denigrate my beliefs however, I would challenge you to prove that my beliefs are not in accordance with God's word...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.

That's the problem, Kevin. Every person that proclaims his/her faith believes that they walk with God. If I join Elpidio's church, I will believe that God is there. If I join your church, I will believe that God is there. If I join Faith's church, they will kick me out faster than you can say "pagan". Anyway, each person will read Scriptures and have their understandings, hence the many flavors of Christianity.

One day I shall share my place in this confusion with the many denominations and systems.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.

One major reason that I read and think about your posts, Kevin, is because you do make the effort to prove your views based on Scriptures and Interpretations. I don't think that you have an axe to grind; it being your motive. Somehow, your motives get confused with emotionalism. There is a fine line.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.

Let me clarify.

Somehow, your motives get confused with emotionalism by the casual reader. I don't think that eotionalism is your driving force. It doesn 't seem like.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.

Uh.....I'm using an old keyboard and I really have to mash down hard on the "m" and "n". Let's make that "emotionalism".

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.

Kevin,

If you look at most of my posts you'll see that I am not fundamentally a very strong Catholic apologist. I don't spend a lot of time posting why "we're right and your are wrong" its not my nature, --- and I'm filled with faith "issues." I'm standing on rocky ground of my "own" making so I generally don't pick them up and pitch them at anyone.

Coming back to faith from agnostisism is as big a leap as I'm capable of at this point. The Catholic Church is where I landed. (The Novus Ordo, post V2 Church.) I also like the parish I found.

I am facinated by religion, theology and people's beliefs. Thats what brought me here, and getting to know people from their writing motivates me to post sometimes.

I don't debate with people about scripture because I'm not that good at it. You are, and I generally always read your posts. Faith's too. But see, no one ever seems to come to agreement. Once though, I saw Gail and Faith working on the same side of scripture a few threads back. I sort of like that when I see it. (I Also like the arguments if they don't get mean.)

As far as Catholicism goes, I wouldn't debate Emerald, Jake or TC who see things differently because the passion of their writing relays a depth of faith to me that I can respect. I'm just trying to make my way with mine, and don't need to get derailed.

I won't denigrate your beliefs so you won't have to defend them to me. I will read what you believe and see how you back it up.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 17, 2005.

Rod,

You are correct however there is only one correct understanding of Scripture, not multiple ones as Satan would have everyone believe... Why do you think he created all of these denominations??? To confuse people about the truth about what one must do in order to be saved. The truth has been revealed in the Bible and it is our responsibility to obey what God has revealed...

There are not many flavors of Christianity, God said that there was only one body, not the many that are out there today...

Satan has blinded the minds of many people in this world because they don't want to see the truth of the gospel... If one really wants to be saved, they will do what God commands... There is actually only one true church of Christ... You say it is yours and I disagree and have shown through my many posts in this forum that the Scriptures agree with me...

You are also right Rod that I don't have an "axe to grind" with anyone here or anyone's belief system. I am concerned about everyone's salvation, that is the reason that I post... To try to show people what God has revealed in His word what one must do in order to be saved...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.

Jim,

Point taken... I would just ask that you compare your beliefs with what has been revealed in God's word... That is all that I ask of anyone who reads what I post... I don't expect anyone to conform to Kevin's belief, it is God's belief system, not mine... I merely try my best to point everyone in the right direction...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.

Kevin

I have always intuited that your heart is in the right place.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 17, 2005.

Mine is a little off-center (bodda-bing). I couldn't resist. Yes, Kevin and I have had our moments of dualing, but I have great respect for him too, Jim.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.

Jim,

Thanks for the kind words... :-)

Rod,

I also have respect for you and your search to find the truth... Yes, we have had our moments, but I think we have learned at least a little bit from each other's posts...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.