In a conversation Kevin Walker and I had in

IS GOD ALMIGHTY?

I had said to Kevin: If the Gospels did not depend on each other, then each one is an original. But since all of them are dependant on Mark, then Mark is based on an original. This original lost the resurrection section, Kevin.

Paul never saw the risen Jesus. He saw him in a vision, not in the flesh.

There is much to be discovered.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 20, 2005.

I still don't believe Paul was a disciple of Jesus.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005

Answers

Kevin's reply was in the folowing terms: a)The Bible is inerrant since we still have Jesus words as he said them b)Paul claims to be an Apostle in I Corinthians 9:1 and c)to have seen Jesus quoting I Cor. 15:8.

"You cannot ever prove that, Kevin, since we don't have the originals. We have only revised copies." If you really believe this Elpidio, then you might as well throw your Bible away because you can't believe it to be true since we only have "revised copies" as you allege...

If Jesus said in Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

and in 1 Peter 1:25, "But the word of the LORD endures forever..."

Since the words of our Lord Jesus Christ are preserved in the Bible you can rest assured that Jesus did not lie and His words have been preserved for us just as Jesus said they would when He made that statment...

You might as well go ahead and call Jesus a liar when He made that statement above since you are already doing this very thing when you say that He is not God...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 21, 2005.

"Paul never saw the risen Jesus. He saw him in a vision, not in the flesh." Elpidio this is not true... Why did Paul say in 1 Corinthians 9:1, "Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?"

Paul could not have been an apostle of Jesus Christ if he did not see the resurrected Jesus for Peter said in Acts 1:21-22, "21 Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ and therefore was a witness of Jesus resurrection...

If you deny this, then you deny that Paul was an apostle...

-- kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 21, 2005.

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 21, 2005.

Elpidio, I suppose that you might as well go ahead and call Ananias a liar too for he said in Acts 9:17, "And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

and also in Acts 22:14, "Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth."

Paul saw the risen Jesus...

He even said so himself in 1 Corinthians 15:1-10, "1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Paul was an apostle of Christ therefore he saw not a vision of as you assert but he actually saw the risen Jesus...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 21, 2005.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.

But the following verse from the text Kevin quoted, I Cor. 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. truly states that Paul persecuted the Church.

If he, Paul, persecuted the Church, then Paul Was not a member of the Church originally, Thus, he was not a witness to Jesus resurrection and miracles.

Can anyone here show where Paul was a Witness to Jesus miracles, his Baptism,....?

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.

Another contention by Kevin as to why Paul is a disciple/apostle of Jesus is that he saw Jesus in the road to Damascus.

Did the people who accompanied Paul to Damasus when he fell from the horse see Jesus?

This is not What Acts 9:2-8 states. a)It first states that Paul heard a voice , and then b) That those around him saw no one other than Paul.

Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Thus, how can Paul claim to be an Apostle if I follow Kevin's logic, that an apostle of jesus must be a witness to his resurrection, miracles, baptism, and so forth?

I Cannot do so.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.

Elpidio--the Scriptures are clear that Paul saw Jesus. It wasn't a vision as in dream. It may have been only for Paul to see--and so the others were kept from seeing Jesus., but Paul saw the resurrected Jesus.

Kevin shared many Scripture verses.

Acts 9:17-19

Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord–Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here,–has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 21, 2005.

faith, I claim to have spoken to God Yahweh and Jesus, the first time on July 23, 2000.You claim I am deluded.Why? Because you have not experienced the same. I accept that.

Yet, Paul did the same by claiming to have spoken to Jesus and to have seen him.

Was he believed by the Church? Yes, because of his coversion.

Did they accept him as an Apostle?No. It was because of Barnabas who took Paul under his protection that Paul received some respect.

Yet, the Apostles did not trust him. Neither did they accept his claims of faith alone.

James letter is written against him. So is the Gospel of Matthew. Bith of these books stress "works of the Law" and "good deeds".

Matthew is based on Mark. Mark is not legalistic. Matthew is. Matthew sees Jesus as the new Moses.

Mark sees Jesus as the promised Son of Man. A similar path is taken by Paul.

When Paul went to Jerusalem, he went with Barnabas. When a decision was reached, at no time does the writer of Acts refer to Paul as an Apostle.

Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Paul took that title for himself.,faith.

Did he deserve it?

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpdio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.

'faith, I claim to have spoken to God Yahweh and Jesus, the first time on July 23, 2000.You claim I am deluded.Why? Because you have not experienced the same. I accept that.'

how do u mean?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 22, 2005.

"Can anyone here show where Paul was a Witness to Jesus miracles, his Baptism,....?"

Nowhere does the Bible state that one must have been a witness to Jesus baptism in order to be an apostle of Christ..

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:11-13, "11 I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. 13 For what is it in which you were inferior to other churches, except that I myself was not burdensome to you? Forgive me this wrong!"

Paul was an apostle of Christ...

Elpidio, are you saying that Paul was not an apostle of Christ???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 22, 2005.

"Paul took that title for himself.,faith. Did he deserve it?"

Now Elpidio, it is obvious that you have not read your Bible...

The apostles were the ones who gave witness of Jesus resurrection for Acts 4:33 states, "And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus."

Before Ananias baptized Paul for the remission of his sins he said in Acts 22:14-15, "14 Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.."

Paul was a witness of Jesus resurrection therefore he was an apostle of Christ...

Jesus even told Paul in Acts 23:11, "But the following night the Lord stood by him and said, "Be of good cheer, Paul; for as you have testified for Me in Jerusalem, so you must also bear witness at Rome."

When Jesus first appeared to Saul He told him in Acts 26:14- 18, "...Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' 15 "So I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'"

Paul did not take the title of "apostle" for himself as you allege for he said in Acts 20:17-24, "17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: "You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. 24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God."

Your contention that Paul took that title for himself is false...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 22, 2005.

"I claim to have spoken to God Yahweh and Jesus, the first time on July 23, 2000.You claim I am deluded.Why? Because you have not experienced the same. I accept that."

Anyone who "claims" to have seen God and Jesus and then makes predictions like you have that do not come true is a false teacher... You are no different than the Jehovah's witnesses or any other organization who have predicted things that have not come true...

"Yet, Paul did the same by claiming to have spoken to Jesus and to have seen him."

Paul didn't make the claim as you did... He did actually see Jesus and had the powers to prove it... Do you have the same abilities that Paul had???

"Did they accept him as an Apostle?No. It was because of Barnabas who took Paul under his protection that Paul received some respect."

Paul in his letters stated that he was "called" to be an apostle for he wrote in Romans 1:1-7, "1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;"

Paul also said in Galatians 1:1, "Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead"

According to the truth of God's word, Paul was an apostle for he stated (through inspiration of the Holy Spirit) in Titus 1:1-4, "1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;"

"Yet, the Apostles did not trust him. Neither did they accept his claims of faith alone."

They didn't trust him at first because he persecuted the church!!! Would you trust someone who killed your fellow brethren??? Paul did not teach a doctrine of "faith alone"...

"James letter is written against him. So is the Gospel of Matthew. Bith of these books stress "works of the Law" and "good deeds"."

This is merely your opinion Elpidio, it is not the truth... James does not write against Paul nor did Matthew... If your contention were true, then there would be contradictions in the Bible and there are none...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 22, 2005.

Again, Kevin, your contention here,

Nowhere does the Bible state that one must have been a witness to Jesus baptism in order to be an apostle of Christ..

Is answered in Acts 1. a)First by listing who was there,b) second, by stating that the one chosen to replace Judas had to be a witness to Jesus baptism,and c)Third that only 2 qualified: Joseph Barsabas (same person mentioned in Acts and Galatians that accompanies Paul after the Jerusalem council) and Matthias (the real Matthew).

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [the brother] of James.

Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Kevin, Thus, by only choosing 1:Matthias, they made sure that the apostles were only 12. This number no longer was changed neither anyone else replaced those who died.

Thus Paul is not an Apostle for the circumcision .

Paul felt left out and neglected by the apostles. Keep in mind that h had to confront them, like he did Peter at Antioch, Barnabas, and James.

Paul selt titled himself an apostle. The Apostle of the Gentiles.

You quoted 2 Corinthians 12:11-13, to show he was an apostle. But Paul clearly defends his record among the Gentiles to show them he was just like one of Jesus apostles: He could also do miracles.

"11 I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. "

This statement of yours is true, Kevin: Paul was an apostle of Christ...

but only for the Gentiles, I might say.

Your other contetion that he witnessed Jesus resurrection shows that you ignored the same passage from acts that states that the ones accompanying Paul saw no one other than Paul. Elpidio, are you saying that Paul was not an apostle of Christ???

Paul was a witness of Jesus resurrection therefore he was an apostle of Christ...

Jesus even told Paul in Acts 23:11, "But the following night the Lord stood by him and said, "Be of good cheer, Paul; for as you have testified for Me in Jerusalem, so you must also bear witness at Rome."

22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

As you can see from the underlined part from your quotation, Jesus appeared to him at night, that is , in his dreams,not in the flesh Kevin.

You also quote Galatians to prove Paul was an apostle of Jesus, Kevin.

Your contention that Paul took that title for himself is false... Galatians 1:1, "Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead"

Sorry to disappoint you, Kevin.

Paul states in Galatians that he received Jesus messages though dreams. Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Thus, Paul was not a witness of Jesus in the flesh. He saw Jesus in the Spirit, I might say.

Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;

Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Gal 2:10 Only [they would] that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Can you see the apostles never ever called Paul an Apostle, Kevin?

It is Paul who calls himself an apostle!!!!

Was he truly an Apostle?

Not if I use your criteria. Not if I use the apsotles' criteria.

Yet, Paul (Saul) was a prophet of Jesus Christ!!!

Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

And you still say I don't know my Bible, Kevin?

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 22, 2005.

Elpidio--

People checked with the Scriptures to be sure that everything Paul was saying was true. He was in keeping with God's Word--unlike you.

Acts 17:11-12

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 22, 2005.

One can see the scriptures and not understand, faith.

That is why Jesus applied one of Isaiah's prophecies for his generation against the Pharisees and scribes.

When God's name appears close to 7000 times as Yahweh or Yah. When Jesus is usually called the son. When paul always mentions God first and then Jesus. When even Revelation calls God the one who was, who is, and who will be and Jesus by a shorter form,

then, faith,

Yahweh is our God and Jesus is his Son. But they are not the same. One died, one can't never die.

One prayed not to die. The one that cannot die heard the prayer.

He exulted Jesus for his righteousness until death.

Jesus could have chosen another path that night. He didn't.

The rest is history.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 22, 2005.

Yes, sdq,

I had a revelation of God Yahweh and Jesus on July 23, 2000. It was in 4 parts. I first published it in a thread now deleted in the Catholic Forum in November 2002 called No Monopoly on the truth by Kiwi. Eugene Chavez, who you may know by now there, got it out of me when he called me a false prophet of the internet.

Chris Butler who used to be a moderator there before Paul and others chosen by him went on a thread deletion rampage that destroyed over 10,000-15,000 messages.

Since then, pieces of it I have inserted in some threads when people ask me. I usually don't volunteer that information.

In the thread I am quoting now from April 2003, quite long, 78 pages I believe, I mention the dream.

In this thread where I get to know Rod and Jim who now post here, you notice I mention the birth of a son. My son was born in October 2003. Yet the post is from April. My wife was never told the gender of the child when she had a test in March 5, 2003 to see if she was pregnant.

Has anyone had a dream about the Pope lately

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00AlZm

Rod, I am back from the race. We ran at Northridge University. It was a beautiful dayy. I felt some pain. I haven't run since my surgery. It is about 11:27 am, here in Los Angeles. In the thread, you notice I mention 3 persons: my mother, the Pope , and President Bush. I didn't mention my mother. Just like you, everytime I wake up in the middle of the noght, someone dies or something terrible happens to me or someone close to me.Last year in January I had a dream about my mother that she was close to dying. I told her the dream.I told her her life was in jeopardy before the end of May. In late April and in may my mother was so sick, lost aa lot of weight, had uncontrollable swetty days. She even called all of her brothers to say goodbye. I told her what was her decision: she said she wanted to know my son (by the way, she had a dream in january 2001 of a son I was going to have). She prayed to God to see my son. So far she is alive. I am afraid, once my son is born, she will die.

Right now, in 2003, my wife is pregnant. I am still not sure whether is going to be a boy or a girl. My brother had a dream around the time of the War with Iraq that I had a son. My wife dreamed a son with the name of Isaias in August 2002 and October 2002. She was told in a dream that a surprise awaited her on March 3, 2003. That day she found out she was pregnant.

Isaias is the same name as Jesus in Hebrew. Yesha'yahu as opposed to Yehoshua(short:yeshua) both meaning salvation of Yahu (Yahweh). I let you know later on if I had a boy or a girl.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 26, 2003.

Here I mentioned the dream about July 23, 2000.

John , Eugene, David and Mike think I search for fame. My purpose for life was entirely different. I wanted to enter politics in my country of Mexico. I was prevented from fulfilling those dreams. This happenend in the middle of 1985. I never imagined what was coming. The dreams began in 1986. In 2000 I talked to God and Jesus. You can see there was a long period before I talked to the main Person. The dream-vision had a command and a prophecy.

There were more in July and August 2002 about the future of the Church. I have never revealed them. I realized once I had them, that I had failed in my mission. I could not changed the mind of the Pope. I admired that man a lot. He broke my heart when he made Juan Diego, instead of marcos the painter of the image of la Virgen de Guadalupe a saint. He Made the wrong man a saint. But I understand. How can you erase the legend of Juan Diego since the 1630s. Fray Bernardino de Sahagun wrote the true story about the image. Here is his < a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13325a.htm'> biography

Here also you see a page dealing with La Virgen de Guadalupe

Busca sus libros acerca de la historia de las cosas de Nueva españa. Son como 13 o 14 libros. No recuerdo si es el libro 11 donde esta escrito esto. Todo lo que sabemos sobre el Mexico antiguo lo sabemos por Fray bartolomé. A este hombre le pasó lo que a Guillermo Schulembur. Cuidó de la imagen 30 años. Al jubilarse dijo que Juan Diego no existió. Sahagún antes de morir escribió sobre la imáge. No estaba tan menso tampoco. La obra se publicó alrededor de su muerte. Si eso dice los que sabe...que dirán los que están llenos de fe. Yo fui uno de ellos. Yo representé a Juan Diego en varias obras teatrales que yo mismo escribí. Así que he estado en ambos lados de la moneda. Se lo que significa ser aplaudido y ser maldecido.

Sometimes you have to live with prophecies that are not fulfilled because God allowed certain people to live. Unfortunately, people think you are a fake. So far, those dealing with the White House so far have been true. There is only one which needs to be fulfilled.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

And here I mention that the Pope will make 6 trips, which I call choice C. C) 4-Spain, Croatia, Slovenia,(drop Mongolia) Slovakia and 2-(Drop Pompei since it is in Italy) Austria in June 2004 and Luordes in 2004.

The Pope already made the 6 trips. Will he make a 7th? I doubt it.

Why? He is also in the line of death from a dream I had on July 4, 2004. Can faith stop death? Part 3.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CdX1

My mother is also in that line barely past the middle.

So the Pope, Bush, Fidel Castro, Antonio Aguilar,Rehnquist,....most likely die before her anytime between February and June 2004.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 22, 2005.

This is why I know that you are a false prophet Elpidio--because you deny Jesus. What you say, does not line up with God's Word. Therefore, you follow the teachings and doctrines of deceiving spirits.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 22, 2005.

So the Pope, Bush, Fidel Castro, Antonio Aguilar,Rehnquist,....most likely die before her anytime between February and June 2004.

I assume you mean "2005", sicne 2004 is over with ... Incedentlaly, should Buish not die, whatthen Dear Elp? ( I leave you the Pope, scne his fialign Health makes him a prime candidate for crossign over inthis time frame, thouhg it is not a certainty.The same can be said of Fidel Castro.)

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 22, 2005.

"And you still say I don't know my Bible, Kevin?"

That is correct... Anyone who claims that Jesus is not God is an enemy of the Bible...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 22, 2005.

"Thus Paul is not an Apostle for the circumcision ."

I never stated that he was...

"Paul felt left out and neglected by the apostles. Keep in mind that h had to confront them, like he did Peter at Antioch, Barnabas, and James."

That has nothing to do with whether or not Paul was an apostle of Christ...

"Paul selt titled himself an apostle. The Apostle of the Gentiles."

In order to be a witness of Jesus resurrection, i.e. an apostle, one had to see him risen from the dead and this Paul most certainly did witness thus Paul was an apostle of Christ... "You quoted 2 Corinthians 12:11-13, to show he was an apostle. But Paul clearly defends his record among the Gentiles to show them he was just like one of Jesus apostles: He could also do miracles."

Only the apostles could lay their hands on someone and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit... Paul was able to do this very thing hence, he was an apostle of Christ...

"This statement of yours is true, Kevin: Paul was an apostle of Christ..."

I thought you said earlier that he wasn't???

"but only for the Gentiles, I might say."

Yes, Paul was an apostle for the gentiles because the Jews would not hear him and thus rejected Christ for themselves...

"Your other contetion that he witnessed Jesus resurrection shows that you ignored the same passage from acts that states that the ones accompanying Paul saw no one other than Paul."

The ones who were with Paul did not hear Jesus talking, they only saw the light...

"Paul was a witness of Jesus resurrection therefore he was an apostle of Christ..."

Which is what I have been saying all along...

"As you can see from the underlined part from your quotation, Jesus appeared to him at night, that is , in his dreams,not in the flesh Kevin."

Does the passage say that Paul was dreaming??? Or is this just Elpidio's take on this passage??? The text states that the Lord stood by him...

"Sorry to disappoint you, Kevin. Paul states in Galatians that he received Jesus messages though dreams. Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Thus, Paul was not a witness of Jesus in the flesh. He saw Jesus in the Spirit, I might say."

Again, this is only your assumption Elpidio... Just because the text states "but by the revelation" does not mean that Paul only saw Jesus in his dreams... If you believe this and it appears that you do, you are sincerely mistaken...

"Can you see the apostles never ever called Paul an Apostle, Kevin?"

Who cares if the "apostles never called Paul an apostle"??? It does not matter...

"It is Paul who calls himself an apostle!!!!"

Actually it is God who calls him an apostle for Paul wrote through inspiration of the Holy Spirit...

"Was he truly an Apostle?"

Yes he was...

"Not if I use your criteria. Not if I use the apsotles' criteria."

You just said earlier that Paul was an apostle... Please make up your mind...

"Yet, Paul (Saul) was a prophet of Jesus Christ!!! Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. And you still say I don't know my Bible, Kevin?"

No you don't know your Bible Elpidio... You claim that you know it but you have been misled... Paul in the passage above is the teacher and not a prophet...

Paul himself stated this very thing (that he was a teacher besides being a preacher and an apostle) in 2 Timothy 1:8-12, "8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles."

Paul was appointed by Jesus to be an apostle...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 23, 2005.

Zarove,

Elpidio wrote, "So the Pope, Bush, Fidel Castro, Antonio Aguilar,Rehnquist,....most likely die before her anytime between February and June 2004."

This is another so-called vision of his that he claims comes from God that most likely will also not come true... God does not lie, so these visions that he claims come from God must have come from somewhere else... There is no way that he can claim "I misinterpreted" these visions for God has been very clear in the past when He tells someone something is going to happen... You can rest assured that visions that actually come from God to take place just as He said they would...

Elpidio has had many so-called visions of his that have not come true and since this is the case, these visions cannot have come from God...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 23, 2005.

Stop going around th Bush, Kevin.

By your definition and the apostles definition of being with them since Jesus baptism, Paul did not qualfy. Also, the number was set at 12. Paul did not replace anyone from the 12.

Paul was also a teacher, as you mentioned, and an evangelist.

But he was never an apostle.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 24, 2005.

Zarove,

2004 was a typo.

As for teh dream.

That is why I titled my dream that includes the line of death Can faith Stop Death?. More than 50 people have died from my dream. yet, only 6 were able to move along the line: Janet Leigh (#4 to 21. about 3 months later, Antonio Aguilar survived cancer in May. His son wanted to make a concert in his honor in September 2004. It was done already. Fidel castro became an Atheist. Given a second chance. He already knows. I wrote to him. Bush also knows as does the Pope.

The only one I did not write to is William Rehnquist. His wish was granted: giving the oath of office to Bush.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 24, 2005.

Elpidio--

You don't understand the nature of God's prophecy.

His prophecy is based on what is--not possible changes. God knows everything past, present and future.

His prophecy is 100% accurate and not subject to man's decision., in that He already knows what changing of minds we did or didn't do.

The purpose of His prophecy is not to give us an opportunity to change our destiny--but to prove to us that His Word is truth, that he is truth.

Your predictions do not come from Him because your error could not possibly edify Him.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 24, 2005.

Elpidio,

You wrote, "Stop going around th Bush, Kevin."

Sorry Elpidio, I am not beating around the bush as you allege...

"By your definition and the apostles definition of being with them since Jesus baptism, Paul did not qualfy."

Paul did qualify, he was a witness of Jesus resurrection which was one of the qualifications of being an apostle in Acts 1:22...

Did the apostles teach about Jesus baptism or Jesus resurrection???

"Also, the number was set at 12."

Where does it state the number was set at 12?

"Paul did not replace anyone from the 12."

I never said that Paul replaced anyone from the 12... "Paul was also a teacher, as you mentioned, and an evangelist."

Yes, that is correct...

"But he was never an apostle."

You said with your own words that Paul was an apostle... Paul said through inspiration of the Holy Spirit that he was an apostle and yet you deny what has been written in the Bible... While you are at it, why don't you just go ahead and delete the portions in your Bible that say that Paul was an apostle... You might as well for that is exactly what you are doing when you make this ignorant statement that Paul was not an apostle when the word of God clearly and plainly states that he was...

This line of reasonsing from you does not surprise me as you reject portions of Genesis and you also reject that Jesus is God... The scriptures are plain enough and even though you refuse to see that Paul was an apostle shows your ignorance of the Bible... I find it interesting that you claim to have visions from God but yet fail to understand what has plainly been revealed in His word...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 24, 2005.

Well, Kevin, here are the Twelve Apostles: Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother;

Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. Their mission wa not to the Gentiles: Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

The purpose for having only 12 apostles: Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (See also Lule 22:30)Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Number reduced to 11 with the death of Judas Iscariot. Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [the brother] of James.

Judas is replaced by a man who followed Jesus from his early days: Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Final fix at 12. Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples [unto them], and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

So it is clear, Kevin, why there were 12 apostles and why Paul wasn't one.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 24, 2005.

Elpidio,

You wrote, "So it is clear, Kevin, why there were 12 apostles and why Paul wasn't one."

Then I suppose that Paul was a liar and God allowed him to lie when he said in: Rom 1:1, Rom 11:13, 1 Cor 1:1, 1 Cor 9:1, 1 Cor 9:2, 1 Cor 15:9, 2 Cor 1:1, 2 Cor 12:12, Gal 1:1, Eph 1:1, Col 1:1, 1 Tim 1:1, 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:1, 2 Tim 1:11, and Titus 1:1 that he was an apostle of Christ???

Your ignorance of God's word is appalling...

Is God a liar Elpidio???

Would God allow something to be written in His book that was not true especially sixteen (16) times???

Hardly...

In one breath you say that Paul was an apostle and now you are arguing that he was not an apostle... Are you delusional and did you forget what you have posted on this thread??? If you would like, I can copy and paste your very words that attest to this fact...

Do you know that Jesus is an apostle???

Are you going to deny this truth also???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 24, 2005.

Welcome to Christianity 301, Kevin. 101 and 201 are introductions.

I have never called God yahweh a liar. But he changes his mind. Otherwise he wouldn't forgive sinners.

As for Paul, ne never claimed the apostles made him one of their own. Neither does he claim Jesus made him one while Jesus was alive.He said he had the marks of one.

Paul's greatest contribution is that he is the founder of modern Christianity, 1,900,000,000.

Peter and James are the founders of Ebionism.Less thasn a million today.

Moses the founder of Judaism (16,000,000 today)..

John The Baptist the founder of the Sabeans (now numbering over 150,000 in Iraq),

.....

And now we have Christian Yahwism....

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 25, 2005.

Elpidio,

You wrote, "Welcome to Christianity 301, Kevin. 101 and 201 are introductions. I have never called God yahweh a liar. But he changes his mind. Otherwise he wouldn't forgive sinners."

You call God a liar everytime you deny that Jesus is God and everytime you state things that are contrary to what has been plainly revealed in the New Testament... God plainly stated that Paul was an apostle and you continue to deny this truth even though the very words of the New Testament attest to this fact...

You wrote, "As for Paul, ne never claimed the apostles made him one of their own."

I never said that he did... I have said and will continue to state that Paul was an apostle... If you continue to deny this truth, then you are in fact calling God a liar...

You wrote, "Neither does he claim Jesus made him one while Jesus was alive. He said he had the marks of one."

He stated that this office was appointed to him... Who did the appointing??? Did it come out of thin air??? Paul most certainly did not make this claim on his own as you assert... Remember the Bible was written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit... If Paul was not an apostle, you can rest assured that it would not be stated in the Bible that he was...

You wrote, "Paul's greatest contribution is that he is the founder of modern Christianity, 1,900,000,000."

Actually Jesus is the founder of modern Christianity... Hence one is named a Christian because they follow Christ... People are called Paulians etc, etc... They are called Christians...

You wrote, "Peter and James are the founders of Ebionism.Less thasn a million today."

Peter and James did not found any type of religion... They preached Christ crucified and told people how to become Christians, thus they preached the religion of Christ...

You wrote, "Moses the founder of Judaism (16,000,000 today).."

Actually, Moses was the leader of the Jews he didn't begin any type of religion...

You wrote, "John The Baptist the founder of the Sabeans (now numbering over 150,000 in Iraq),"

Again this is an assertion... The Bible does not say that John the Baptist or anyone else in the New Testament founded any type of religion outside of the only one that counts, Christianity...

You wrote, "And now we have Christian Yahwism...."

Another false religion that has no basis in the truth of God's word... You claim that you have the truth and deny the very inspiration of the Bible when you make these ignorant claims that Jesus is not God and the like...

-- k\ ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 25, 2005.

That was my post above... Fingers were too quick on my name...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 25, 2005.

the Sabeans claim John the Baptist's baptism, Kevin.

Taken from this link.

http://www.webpal.org/webpal/c_renewal/revelation/revelation02.htm

The Sabean Religion

There still remains a group of the loyal followers of the Sabean Religion near Baghdád in Iraq. Although they feel that their numbers are dwindling since they do not permit conversions to their religion and one must be born into it. They have about 80,000 members in Iraq and another group of 15,000 in southern Iran, and some very small numbers in the US and elsewhere. They fit in with the Islámic world by adopting the Islámic customs and Arab language, and they are accepted by the Iraqi people.

The Sabean book is called Kanza Rama, which is said to transmit the sayings of the ancient Prophets of Seth, Abraham and others lost to time. The group in Iraq call themselves 'Mandaean Sabeans' and they have adopted the teachings regarding baptism from John the Baptist, the forerunner of the Christian religion, in which they see baptism in playing a major role in purifying the soul.

It is interesting that the Bible does not identify John the Baptist as being Jewish but says that he followed what we identify with many ancient Sabean practices in his living close to nature in the wild. Some also feel that he should be identified with the Essene sect and the first chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke has the lengthy account of John's birth to the Priest Zacharias and Elisabeth, a cousin of the Virgin Mary. It is difficult to tell how much of the original teachings of Sabeans remain because the religion is ancient and has now interacted with so many other religions.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 25, 2005.

"the Sabeans claim John the Baptist's baptism, Kevin."

They can "claim" all they want Elpidio, what they are doing is against the clear teaching of the New Testament... The baptism of John is no longer in effect and those who are baptized as such are doing nothing more than getting wet...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 26, 2005.

What if that is the only baptism you know, Kevin,

Will you condem people to eternal damnation? Remeber Acts 18 about Apollos, he was a disciple of John.

Act 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Act 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of Yahweh; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of Yahweh, knowing only the baptism of John.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 27, 2005.

Or what about these other diisciples of John? Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.

This shows John's disciples were eveywhere, Kevin.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 27, 2005.

Elpido,

The baptism of John is no longer in effect... I turn your attention to Acts 19:3-6 which states, "3 ...Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied."

The baptism of John is no longer in effect...

God expects everyone to obey His commandments and the Bible is where He has chosen to reveal His will to mankind...

Jesus made it plain in John 6:45 that "all" will be taught by God, "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.'"

We are all taught by God through His word as delivered to us in the Bible... (See Hebrews 8:10-11).

Those who preach another gospel other than what is revealed in God's word are accursed... (See Galatians 1:6-9).

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 27, 2005.