Catholic school?

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Tomorrow we're scheduled to enroll our eldest child in kindergarten at the local Catholic (Novus Ordo) school at their annual open-house and registration. Lo and behold, on the front of today's newspaper, there was a picture of a student at that school demonstrating how to use a Buddhist prayer wheel. It turns out that Sunday afternoon the school held a "World Peace Village". The article also mentions "at the Islam exhibit, (girl's name) made a paper mat, pointed it east, and kneeled" and "at the Native American religion exhibit, (names) taught their charges four commandments: respect the Great Spirit, respect Mother Earth, respect the tribe and respect individual freedom". Granted, they also had a "Christianity booth", but doesn't this go way beyond teaching about tolerance? The World Peace Village site has some weird stuff – check out "The Peace Lab" link.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), January 31, 2005

Answers

there is a marked difference between the study of other religions and the forcing of children to mimick the bankrupt behaviors of those religions "sacraments."

in todays society we have this mindset that says we have to allow our children to make their own decisions with no input from us. that isnt parenting, true parenting is not simply a spectator sport. would you let a five year old drive your car? then why let them make even more dangerous decisions having to do with the state of their immortal soul? instead they should be made firm in their own true beliefs and attain an age of mental/spiritual maturity before being allowed to study (NOT MIMICK) the theories behind other religions.

simply put, i would either 1) not put my child in that school (except for the fact that the state of public schools isnt much better) or 2) put them in the school but make clear that your child is NOT to participate in such an event.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 31, 2005.


It is a concern that some kids come out of Catholic schools having apparently learned more about other religions than about their own. However I think your reaction is way over the top. As far as I can tell the kids are being taught WHAT people of other religions believe and do. They aren't being taught to actually believe in and practice other religions. And what's wrong with facing East when you pray? I thought the "trads" WANT us to face east. (Moslems don't face east anyway, they face wherever is the exact direction of Mecca from where they are - southeast or southwest from the US.)And I see nothing to object about, and much to praise, in the "World Peace Village", which does not claim to be a Christian site but an inter-faith site.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 31, 2005.

For me it's a question of "where do you draw the line"? The entire point of having your child attend a Catholic School is to have them grow strong in their Catholic Faith. Since the Church teaches that ONLY the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, if one BEGINS in the earliest grades with teaching the children SPECIFICS concerning other religions,encouraging role playing of worship, the indirect lesson learned is that "these people believe this or that and it is OK." In other words, the modern philosophy of tolerance, stretched to the Nth degree.

It's one extreme..the other of course is to teach small children that everyone outside the Church is to be viewed as a despised heretic going to hell.

Children cannot grow up in a vacuum..they need to know that everyone isn't Catholic..they also need to learn, eventually, that everyone isn't heterosexual.but WHEN and HOW they are to learn those things in a Catholic School is important.

It used to be sufficient to teach that the world is made up of various religions and peoples..and that the Catholic Church IS the ONE TRUE CHURCH, yet we do not despise these other folks, we pray for them to return to the Church..period. Much later on, in high school, we learned in sociology class and in world history classes, more detail of the other world religions, as well as communism and atheism, and all of the other "isms".

Role playing wasn't needed..we didn't learn to make prayer rugs or beads or imitate idol worship or make sun gods out of paper mache' to get the point or "feel" of other forms of worship..to what end since they are false?

FIRST be grounded firmly in your own faith, THEN learn all that you can about others. If not, then why not just send our children to the "every kind of faith imaginable school".

I would not allow my children or grandchildren to be in that type of "Catholic" school.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), January 31, 2005.


Well, either one believes in and teaches tolerance or one doesn't. If you don't, then don't whine when others won't tolerate your faith.... Not directed at anyone in particular, just a general statement here.

On the one hand, I would think that at the Catholic school level, comparative religions wouldn't be taught until high school (10-12th grades), if at all. That is normally a college course anyway, most of the time such things as religion are mentioned only in passing during 4th grade geography, or 8th grade history.

But then again, a lot of non-Catholics attend Catholic schools these days, so perhaps that is why this particular school felt it necessary to hold such an event, to include those other students.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 31, 2005.


What a wonderful question to really get to the heart of certain matters!

I haven't (yet) had to make such a decision, but I see a good Catholic education designed to raise children who can be Catholic within the greater community in which they live. The more they know about the rest of the world the better. Period.

Are people worried that their traditions wont stand up to comparison to the other beautiful and ancient traditions mentioned? Anyone firm in there own faith will of course say "No, I am confident in my faith, and my ability to guide my children accordingly."

I think it is a very valid question, and is a good sign that you will take an active role in your childs education. But to me the answer is "Embrace such a Catholic school."

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), January 31, 2005.



paul h, if I hadn't seen other sincere postings by you, I would have assumed when you wrote "forcing of children to mimick the bankrupt behaviors of those religions "sacraments."" that you were someone up to no good by posting an extreme point of view to make the rest of us look bad by association.

Having read many of your other postings, however, I'm disappointed to realize this isn't the case, as much as I had prayed it was.

I dont know what country you live in, but your comment reminds me of the evil done on September 11th in the States. Thankfully I cant fully undetstand what would go on in the mind of such terrorists, but I suspect they saw their victims as religiously bankrupt as well.

I dont mean to suggest that you are a terrorist, or have any itentions to harm anyone, such slander has been used for evil towards even innocent Americans since September 11th, but I pray you will look in your heart and see how this view of yours spreads even the smallest seeds of such horrible deeds.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), January 31, 2005.


I dont know what country you live in, but your comment reminds me of the evil done on September 11th in the States.

i live in the USA, and i happen to hold the opinion that bluntly stating that teaching five year olds to mimick other religions which do not contain the fulness of truth is wrong falls somewhat short of the wholesale murder of around three thousand people.

Thankfully I cant fully undetstand what would go on in the mind of such terrorists, but I suspect they saw their victims as religiously bankrupt as well.

you know, i thought a LONG time about what word to place in that sentence and decided that bankrupt was probably best. heres why:

Bankrupt: ADJ ~ Depleted of valuable qualities or characteristics: a morally and ethically bankrupt politician.

Depraved: ADJ ~ Morally corrupt; perverted

So i hope you can see the difference in perception between that which lacks value (although can be tolerated, ie my beliefs towards, say, wicca or other "earth" religions) and the belief that something is objectively wrong and should be exterminated (namely, how Osama bin Laden feels about, well, you and me, really).

I said what i said for a very good reason, these earth religions lack value and therefore do not need to be studied as equal to catholicism at the age of six or so. as lesley said, studies in religious diversity re: particulars best waits until high school for moral and spiritual maturity.

I dont mean to suggest that you are a terrorist, or have any itentions to harm anyone, such slander has been used for evil towards even innocent Americans since September 11th

well, i'm glad you dont think i'm a terrorist, i assure you i'm not. conversely, i accept other religions and other peoples beleifs, but that does not change the fact that i view that which conflicts with catholic doctrine as objectively false. You dont have to accept only what people have in common and throw the rest away, being different is okay. trying to teach kids that their catholic faith isnt something to be UNIQUELY proud of is, however, foolish.

I pray you will look in your heart and see how this view of yours spreads even the smallest seeds of such horrible deeds.

and i will pray that you come to more fully understand the fundamental difference between acceptance, tolerance, and violence. honestly, take a little pride in what you believe and don't threaten your children's spiritual welfare by thrusting them into a dangerous world before they are ready for it. age and experience is what allows us to hold to the right course, not youth.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 31, 2005.


That is over the top, and crosses the line of "teaching what others believe." RUN, RUN, RUN!

How terribly confusing -- if not practically impossible -- for a child to have to try to weed through all of that information to find the truth.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 31, 2005.


Here is a pope and council who would be considered small minded and mean in todays society. Nothing more than a dogmatic declaration, but what does that mean in these times of ecumanism.

How Our Lady must weep.

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Your kids will never hear this in their Catholic schools. That was for then but prayer rugs is for now.

-- JS (A@A.com), January 31, 2005.


Gee Johnny, I’m sorry to hear that schismatics are gonna fry.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 31, 2005.


Steve Sir; If you know that schismatics are gonna fry, why don't you shape up. You cannot even plead invincible ignorance.

-- JS (A@A.com), February 01, 2005.

the irony of your post, JS, is that you are the one in schism from the church by all measurable standards.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), February 01, 2005.

"Gather and HONOR the MANY pathways of spiritual wisdom"..this is the introductory statement to the "world peace village" program of a CATHOLIC school????? What "Many Pathways" should we Catholics teach our children to "honor" to spiritual wisdom????

There aren't "many"..there is ONE pathway to the fullness of truth.

Dialogues with people of other faiths are one thing, but literally teaching that there are "many pathways to spiritual wisdom" and that our children should "honor" them is pure hogwash.

Dangerous rhetoric. There is no excuse for it in a Catholic School.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 01, 2005.


Maybe you should homeschool, perhaps with a Catholic homeschool curriculum. At the very least, you should talk to the principal and ask why they're doing this. Anyone paying big bucks for something (and Catholic schools are NOT cheap) is entitled to get what they pay for, i.e. a Catholic education. What about reporting this up the chain to the diocese and beyond?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 01, 2005.

Tomorrow we're scheduled to enroll our eldest child in kindergarten at the local Catholic (Novus Ordo) school

Why!?

If it can't be a Traditional Catholic school, then it had better be Traditional Catholic homeschool. I don't understand how anyone could possibly make any other choice.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 01, 2005.



Nick,

You know the way schools work? Very few people in the community show up for the curriculum committee meetings, but EVERYONE bellyaches when the few uninformed people who DO show up do something inappropriate.

Here's what you do: enroll you kid in school, and then SHOW UP to all the meetings, and demand they quit doing activities that you find unCatholic. You'll have a lot more effect on things than you imagine. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and you'll help other kids than your own as well.

Frank

P.S. Are there any NON "novus ordo" Catholic schools? (Not counting the schismatic sspx or sspv "schools" that are leading their youth to damnation)

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 01, 2005.


Hi Frank,

It doesn't always help to show up at meetings, write letters (which you do when you have no one trustworthy to watch your children), etc., if you're in the minority opinion.

I think it does send more of a message when you do pull out your children, or refuse to enroll them in the first place, because it's money, and that hits them where they live.

But for parents for whom school (any school) is Daycare first and foremost (or a way for their children to see other children because they live in a rural area), and education somewhere on down the list, the only real option they have is to opt-out of whatever they find offensive, as soon as they find out about it. This World Peace Village thing may not have been in the curriculum. A lot of this kind of nonsense gets "snuck in" at the last minute.

For example, all the Tsunami fundraising. I personally feel that there should be no fundraising of any sort for any reason done on school property during school hours. I don't care if it is public or private school. If I wanted my children to be little bratty salespeople, I'd get them into network marketing.

I think the problem here is that perhaps the NON-Catholics outnumber the Catholics in this school, or someone has threatened the school on the QT with some sort of "politically correct" issue lawsuit.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 01, 2005.


This is for Nick; --Dear Nick:
Have you contacted your bishop? I would, if something seemed dangerous about the school, to your child's ''faith''.

I say ''faith'' because we know a kindergarden class isn't one where FAITH is inculcated into babies.

I can't help noticing your pointed reference to ''Novus Ordo'' -- ''--scheduled to enroll our eldest child in kindergarten at the local Catholic (Novus Ordo) school.'' Does that mean you have some bone to pick, about Vatican II? You could have just said, ''Local Catholic school.''

Speak to the bishop; and he might take a look into the school, just to be safe.

Since it's a Baby Room, (we called them that, in the 40's, when I attended Kinder.) it shouldn't come down to an attack on our Church. It's somewhat implausible to rock the boat over harmless thoughts the baby's exposed to. They hardly seem an indoctrination of any sort.

While you're about it, give your bishop the information you find suspicious in that World Peace Village site, with its ''weird stuff''. He might think over the situation at your kindergarden school, if you're onto something serious. Trust your bishop, Nick. GO-- take responsibility for informing him.

He's the true authority and leadership of your Church. (Not feeble--minded ''Trads'' like we've had in here; just muck-raking all the time.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 01, 2005.


a kindergarden class isn't one where FAITH is inculcated into babies.

See what I mean, Nick?

-- jake (j@k.e), February 01, 2005.


Is that a ''trad' Baby Room, Jake? Or the Novus Ordo school? If so, I would say your diocese has an excellent bishop. If it's a schismatic bishop; Nick: Don't touch it with a pointed stick.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 01, 2005.

Once again, for good or ill, I have no idea what you're talkng about.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 01, 2005.

LOL, that is something to consider Nick. Jake has declared himself a schismatic from the Catholic Church, so you might not want to listen to the advice he gives you -- which I assume will lead you down his path.

Remember, Pope Eugene said schismatics are going to Hell.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 01, 2005.


Jake, interesting website!

Just to point out that the prices aren't too bad for the tuition. Some public school districts charge $250/year just for the school bus (hint, it is often cheaper and more useful to get a monthly public transit pass, instead)!

I bet if you cost it out, you may find that it is not that expensive, even when you include books, when you think of all the expenses associated with public schools, which are supposed to provide a FREE education by law, but in fact do not, by the time you add up all the fees and fundraisers, excess levies, etc.

Your time committment actually teaching will vary, depending upon whether you're doing "school at home" (blackboard on the wall, set hours, think of the book "The Well-Trained Mind", or doing more of an "unschooling approach". Also, at some point, you can also just give the children the books and let them learn on their own.

If you are looking to homeschool, I would also suggest looking at your state's laws on homeschooling, as well as the Home School Legal Defense Association:

http://www.hslda.org/

They are somewhat on the right-wing Fundamentalist side, but they defend your right to homeschool based on exercising your right to freedom of religion.

I am surprised the school is not accredited as a homeschool "umbrella".

-- (nospam@nospam.com), February 01, 2005.


when you think of all the expenses associated with public schools, which are supposed to provide a FREE education by law, but in fact do not, by the time you add up all the fees and fundraisers, excess levies,

...your childrens' immortal souls...

If you are looking to homeschool

3 of my 4 children are homeschooled. The fourth is 18 months old.

I would also suggest looking at your state's laws on homeschooling, as well as the Home School Legal Defense Association: They are somewhat on the right-wing Fundamentalist side, but they defend your right to homeschool based on exercising your right to freedom of religion.

I'm familiar w/ HSLDA. They have some good materials, and they charge a bundle for them. Fortunately (for now) the laws in my state are very favorable to homeschooling.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 01, 2005.


Jake, the states do vary greatly, although I think many of the cases the HSLDA handles, from reading their descriptions are more along the lines of some busybody calling to say the children are truant when they're playing outside during the day.

I was pointing out the expense comparisons just for information purposes. A lot of people think a Catholic education is out of their reach, and it no longer is. Also, if you just bought the books, it would be even cheaper, and you may as well, if the school isn't accredited anyway. And, this way, you could even avoid the "bad" kids at Catholic schools (you know, the ones whose parents donate lots of money or volunteer time, so they could never be kicked out), there are always a few.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 01, 2005.


Wonder why Jake never answered me? Is Our Lady of Victory part of a Novus Ordo parish, or does it come with your anti-Novus bias? Is it a Home School? Does a Catholic bishop have jurisdiction over the school?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 01, 2005.

Oh for heaven's sake..when a Catholic school wants to have the kids enter a peace room where the message is that they are to HONOR all the various paths to spiritual wisdom, how could ANY Catholic think that was an OK thing?

Eugene, you are one of the first on this forum to point out that Non- Christian Faiths are heresies..so how could you imagine that teaching small Catholic kids that to honor "other paths to spiritual wisdom" is in any way a GOOD thing?

My grandson in in a Catholic kindergarden and his school wouldn't even consider teaching ANYTHING which didn't have to do with the Catholic Church. He's 6 years old and is learning all about the Mass..and yes, it's the "new mass"..and he's learned the rosary with his class, and the various prayers of the Catholic Church..and they are ALREADy learning about the sacraments..KINDERGARDEN. And in this school, Latin is mandatory, starting in the 3rd grade..why? So the older kids in the high school can INTELLIGENTLY dialogue concerning the church's TRADITION..not to mention be more adept at learning other languages.

In 2005, when in the secular world, kids in the 5th grade are being exposed to all kinds of horrid things around them in our sick culture, I would hope that the kindergarten "babies" are being taught the Catholic Faith, VS to "honor all of the various paths to spiritual wisdom".

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 01, 2005.


I posted a link, Gene.

1. Click the link (I know you got at least this far).

2. Select FAQ from the sidebar menu.

3. Read.

4. Return here to broadcast your protests/criticism.

5. Repeat until you've had the last word.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 01, 2005.


Keep a-you shirt on, Lesley!

I never said anything was an OK thing. Read my post: Speak to the BISHOP. (I hope you don't object if we speak to a bishop?) We have only the word of one person, Nick-- to base some fair judgment on a Kinder, --of all things! I also asked if he had a grievance against Vatican II. There's no doubt Jake has that, and you, most likely. But why should you have doubts about the bishop in Nick's diocese? Unless you're consumed with BIAS against the Church. --The CHURCH is our Novus Ordo, --and you'd better not forget it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 01, 2005.


correction to my post..it should have read: "Latin is mandatory beginning in the 7th grade".

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 01, 2005.

I asked YOU, and I should let the matter drop. It seems your school in question is part of a Catholic diocese. The BISHOP is a Catholic of our Church, with the authority given him by God. Not a schismoid on a mission to save us from kindergarden teachers. Am I correct so far?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 01, 2005.

Am I correct so far?

I don't even know what you're asking me.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 01, 2005.


Not unusual.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 01, 2005.

Is Our Lady of Victory part of a Novus Ordo parish, or does it come with your anti-Novus bias? Is it a Home School? Does a Catholic bishop have jurisdiction over the school?

***Since I home school my children I can assure you this is not a anti-novus bias to this home school curriculum. It is very traditional which there is nothing wrong with that. I use Seton ( www.setonhome.org ) for my children and it is also traditional, but it does say where changes were made. We like the meat and potatoes over here! None of that watered down stuff. As for the bishop knowing what I am using? Of course not. Don't think they get involved with home schoolers. As for our Diocese and private Catholic schools in my area? There are a bad ones, and a few good ones. Most children any more in Catholic private schools (at least in my area) are rich kids with problems and their parents are hoping the school will help staighten them up. They are not even Catholic. Also the reputation of getting a better education leads many there. My Diocese is also being sued by a few parents for what was taught to their children that went against our faith.

The CHURCH is our Novus Ordo, --and you'd better not forget it.

***It is ALSO the Latin Mass--don't you forget that either! ;o)

God Bless.

-- jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), February 01, 2005.


I was responding to YOUR statement: "They hardly seem an indoctrination of any sort".

I'll be pickled if I can figure out why when anybody breathes a scintilla of a question regarding something, ANYTHING which any Catholic parish or school or priest or whatever may be in error about you automatically ASSUME that the poster is an evil "trad" out to dismantle the Church, is against the Pope or Vatican II, and is probably aligned with the devil himself.

NIck expressed a VALID concern. Did it occur to you that PERHAPS his mentioning the fact that the parish was a "Novus Ordo" school was to ASSURE people that it was an "APPROVED" Catholic school and not some weirdo whacko "out-there-in left-field" school?

WHY would you assume that because I pointed out that to instruct Catholic children of ANY age that they should HONOR many paths to spiritual wisdom is hogwash, that I WOULDN'T support what a bishop had to say upon the matter? Can you honestly in your DREAMS imagine a Catholic Bishop supporting such a concept???

Does the Catholic Church teach that their are "many paths to spiritual wisdom" that we should "honor"..no, it does NOT. The Church teaches that there is ONLY ONE PATH to spiritual wisdom..and that is the fullness of TRUTH within the Catholic Church. The Church teaches, as Paul M. has pointed out many times, that PEOPLE of other faiths are to respected, yet their beliefs are FALSE.

THE Church is Norvus Ordo, AND the Tridentine mass Eugene..at least it is according to Pope John Paul II..take it up with him if you don't like it. It isn't a contest..so back off. We are ALL the Church.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 01, 2005.


"I'll be pickled if I can figure out why when anybody breathes a scintilla of a question regarding something, ANYTHING which any Catholic parish or school or priest or whatever may be in error about you automatically ASSUME that the poster is an evil "trad" out to dismantle the Church, is against the Pope or Vatican II, and is probably aligned with the devil himself."

Soooooo, I guess it wasn't just me that noticed this, huh?

-- Michael G. (NoEmail@Nowhere.no), February 01, 2005.


Save the Scintilla Megillah. --I asked only an innocent question; Why make a point of Novus Ordo? AND: -- That parent ought to speak to the bishop, not take your advice or mine. It's his RESPONSIBILITY.

Lesley: ''because I pointed out that to instruct Catholic children of ANY age that they should HONOR ''many paths to spiritual wisdom'' (???????) is hogwash.'' --- ! ! ! --Show us that teaching, please.

''. . . that I WOULDN'T support what a bishop had to say upon the matter? --Can you honestly in your DREAMS imagine a Catholic Bishop supporting such a concept???''

You seem to be DREAMING that the bishop is in favor. I said the matter should be brought to HIS ATTENTION. I even added: (I hope you don't object if we speak to a bishop?)

But you're only spoiling for a fight. On account of the tots being shown how other cultures appreciate God? Not to teach them to be false to our mother the Church; that's YOUR concept of this.

--But so that one day they don't develop YOUR narrow-minded prejudices and Pharisaisms? Do you WANT your child to be taught other souls must simply go to Hell? To damn another person if he's Jewish or Hindu or protestant? Is learning to be little Pharisees taught at a curriculum near YOU?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 01, 2005.


Wow, this is obviously a busy thread... This is my reponse to paul h's thoughtful response to my problem with him saying "forcing of children to mimick the bankrupt behaviors of those religions "sacraments."

First of all, paul h., I will spend more time reading your comments, you are obviously someone who chooses his words carefully, and I respect that.

I understand now that you placed a lot of thought in the word "bankrupt", and thankfully, in retrospect, I too choose the phrase "spreads even the smallest seeds of such horrible deeds" as September 11th, the Holocaust against 8-10 million people (Jews, Catholics, etc...) Why worry about destroying something that is "Depleted of valuable qualities or characteristics"?

It saddens me that you see your place, and the Catholic Church's place, in the world in this way. I suspect we will never see eye to eye on this matter, but I do appreciate the insight into peoples mind such as yours.

In this case GT summed my view as well when she said "Well, either one believes in and teaches tolerance or one doesn't. If you don't, then don't whine when others won't tolerate your faith...." We should all pray that other religions arent teaching THEIR children that Catholics are bankrupt and of no value.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 01, 2005.


“Novus Ordo” (“New Order of the Mass”) is the name of the text of the Mass approved by John Paul in 1969. "Novus Ordo" has no meaning outside discussion of texts of the Mass. The phrase “Novus Ordo School” is a meaningless absurdity.

“when a Catholic school wants to have the kids enter a peace room where the message is that they are to HONOR all the various paths to spiritual wisdom, how could ANY Catholic think that was an OK thing?”(Lesley)

Well I certainly see nothing wrong with “honoring” the paths to spiritual wisdom of Islam, Buddhism etc. It’s true that especially with young children we have to be very careful when doing this not to unintentionally give them the message that all religions are equally valid. However I don’t think we should go to the other extreme and not tell them ANYTHING about other religions until they get to high school (if then). There are people of many cultures and religions in our communities, and kids need to know that the person they see twirling a Buddhist prayer wheel or kneeling on a moslem prayer rug is not some crazy and possibly malevolent weirdo, but a benevolent person praying in the way of his religion.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 01, 2005.


Oops! for “John Paul” read “Pope Paul“

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 01, 2005.

I give up Eugene..you "win"..I don't know what prize there is, but whatever you get out of your assumptions, be happy.

I wasn't saying at all that people of other religions are damned to hell..sigh and double sigh. You so thoroughly love to put words in other people's mouths lately.

OUR Church, the Catholic Church, the fullness of TRUTH which offers BOTH the Norvus Ordo and the Tridentine masses, teaches that God wishes ALL MEN TO BE SAVED..just because a person happens to be Catholic is certainly no guarantee of heaven..HOWEVER, if a person is NOT a part of the "fullness of TRUTH" that person is missing out on a great deal and is lacking a great many of the graces which ASSIST a person to achieve salvation..

People who are non-CHristians CAN achieve salvation, through the mercy of God..OK Eugene?

Now, having SAID that..It is my position that CATHOLIC school children who are in their INFANCY learning about their CATHOLIC FAITH, when presented with the CONCEPT that THEY SHOULD HONOR ALL PATHS TO SPIRITUAL WISDOM, can easily misconstrue that concept and come to the conclusion that ALL RELIGIONS have equal spiritual wisdom. This is patently untrue. If it were truth the Catholic Church would not be trying as hard as it could over the centuries to bring ALL of the people in the world into the Church.

Does the path of Buddhism lead to the fullness of Truth in it's "spiritual wisdom"? Does Islam? Should Catholic children be taught to "honor these paths of spiritual wisdom"?

And if you are interested, YES I would contact the Bishop..you bet I would.

I'm going to stop posting for a time because I'm VERY tired of being accused of words I didn't say and thoughts I don't have..You seem to have some sort of trigger finger ready to shoot people whom you THINK are against "Your Church"..well, on THIS count, you're wrong Eugene. BTW, we all need to pray for His Holiness..just heard on the news that he is very ill. sad news..very sad.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 01, 2005.


This is off topic for sure, but to follow up on the last response about the Pope's bodily health, see: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/01/vinci/

From that page Father Chiro Bamadattimi at that office is telling us that there is no cause for alarm, that this is a precautionary measure, but nevertheless Pope John Paul II has at this time been taken to the Gemelli Hospital for further medical tests.

The pope has been suffering for the last few days of a what the Vatican has described as a mild influenza.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 01, 2005.


Pat, i have only two things whereby to respond to your post to me in some hopes that you might understand my point of view a little better.

Why worry about destroying something that is "Depleted of valuable qualities or characteristics"?

conversely, why would you destroy something simply because it is of little or no value to YOU? does everything have to have value to you in order to be worthy of existance? what a selfish world that would be to live in.

for example, i dont believe in the practice of eating bludwurst (a german sausage made from coagulated blood). therefore, the practice of eating such a food is bankrupt of value for me. does this mean that i want to destroy all people who eat these things, or that i at least want to eliminate bludwurst from all food production? not in the slightest. i recognize that this is a practice that holds no value for me, that i choose not to engage in, and that IS acceptable for other people.

the same holds true for the world peace village activity. it is OK for other people to hold beliefs which are contrary to mine. that does not change the fact that i view those beliefs as objectively false and would not coerce a child into the confusion caused by having to engage in a behavior which is of little merit to them.

conversely, the holocaust and 9/11, as you seem so fond of pointing out, were not committed based on the fact that our beliefs were deemed bankrupt, they were committed based on the fact that our beliefs are viewed as infidel in nature. a set of beliefs was judged to be more than bankrupt, but to instead be morally wrong and therefore (justifiably or not) some madmen decided to enact violence against a percieved wrong. again, i repeat, recognize that something holding no value for you does not demand its destruction. bankrupt, not morally evil, was the operative word.

I do appreciate the insight into peoples mind such as yours.

as an aside, perhaps if you removed yourself from the mindset that i am hellbent on the destruction of those things which i dont agree with and placed yourself in a frame where you can see that it might be okay to recognize that you dont value something and thats okay, then you might realize that a "mind such as [mine]" is not something so different from, well, yourself. everyday you encounter things which have no value to you. i hope, for the safety of those around you, that YOU dont feel compelled to destroy anything which is not of benefit to you.

We should all pray that other religions arent teaching THEIR children that Catholics are bankrupt and of no value

on the contrary, i could care less what earth "relgions" teach their children about the catholic faith if what they state isn't a lie. if they choose to believe that our sacraments are without merit, then that is their choice.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), February 02, 2005.


World Peace Village for older kids.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), February 02, 2005.

paul h, I know I said it before, but I will say it again (one last time); thank you for your well thought out and on-topic responses... I enjoy our conversations.

I think we have two outstanding issues, and I believe I see your points clearly now, and also believe we will have to agree to disagree.

1. "does everything have to have value to you in order to be worthy of existance"?

Not at all, for sure. I didn't mean to imply that you (or I) saw this as black and white, that either of us thought things with no value should be actively destroyed. I dont believe that, and I truly didnt think of you in that way either. My appologies if you got that impression from my comments.

2. "bankrupt" vs "evil"

You make it clear that you did not call the other religious behaviors evil at all, but "without value" (bankrupt). This was not how I at first understood your original comment; I understand now your choice of words, and that DOES change things.

All of that being said, however, the "agree to disagree" part starts here.

I still see this as the first, VERY SMALL step towards potential evil acts of varying degree. I see value in, and respect, a person praying to his or her deity or deities (or even contemplating their LACK of a deity). To me the key is the value in that person's mind towards using the prayer wheel, even if the prayer wheel itself has no meaning to me.

I guess in summary, I'll say: Any person's Religion and their act of praying is not bankrupt to me.

(I know there are people who are saying "What about cults?" but that is not what we are talking about here... the original posting mentioned established Religions... But it DOES look like that is where the conversation is heading in a new thread I started Our appropriate reaction to other Religions? related to this...)

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 02, 2005.


"What about cults?"

Pat,

How does one determine if a religion or teaching is false -e.g. World Peace Village? Would I just guess?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), February 03, 2005.


"Novus Ordo" has no meaning outside discussion of texts of the Mass. The phrase “Novus Ordo School” is a meaningless absurdity. 

My fault - I wasn't using precise terminology, but I wouldn't call it a meaningless absurdity. I don't think it is possible anymore to use the expression "Catholic school" anymore with any precision.  I see at least three categories:

1)  A traditional Catholic school such as this one, which is run by the FSSP. When Frank asked, P.S. Are there any NON "novus ordo" Catholic schools?, I would have to say yes.  The FSSP are "in full communion" with the Pope. 

2)  What I referred to as a Novus Ordo Catholic school.  This was not necessarily meant as an insult, because there are excellent ones (see Lesley's description above).

3)   Traditional Catholic schools such as these run by the SSPX, which are "not in full communion" with the pope.  According to Frank, these schools are schismatic and are leading their youth to damnation.

Is there a quick, short way to differentiate the first two categories?



-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), February 03, 2005.

Nick:

This article may be of interest to you, especially if your eldest is a boy.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 03, 2005.


Thanks, Jake. Our five-year old is a girl, but our 1-year old is a boy. I'm going to print out the article.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), February 03, 2005.

“"What about cults?" Pat, How does one determine if a religion or teaching is false -e.g. World Peace Village? Would I just guess? “

Daniel, Pat wasn’t taking about whether they are true or false. All non-Catholic religions are false to some extent. But all non-Catholic religions are not equal. No you don’t have to guess. In the case of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, The Church has stated (sorry but it was in Vatican 2) that it esteems and respects these religions and that they have many worthy and uplifting elements. I understand the Pope and bishops have made similar statements re Native American pre-Christian spirituality (sorry haven’t got a reference handy). But when it comes to cults which are novel, unknown or unexamined by the Church, or especially if they seem to have frankly Satanist elements, you would be on much more dangerous ground crediting them with any worthwhile spirituality or paths to wisdom.

Nick, your category (3), schools run by the SSPX are not “Catholic” schools at all. It’s not just “according to Frank” that the SSPX is schismatic, but according to the Pope and bishops. You could refer to category (2) as “Catholic schools other than those run by the FSSP”.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 03, 2005.


Thank you Steve, I agree with your answer to Daniel about the off topic question concerning what defines a "cult".

Daniel, you raise a good question, though, perhaps if you started a new question in a new thread to discuss this it would be worthwhile. Steve's response that the Catholic Church has already commented on a number of Religions is a good start, however.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 03, 2005.


But to me the answer is "Embrace such a Catholic school."

Pat,

Referencing your statement above in addition to your arguments of 'tolerance' -I would suggest you opinion is not congruent with Catholicism and my posting right on topic...

We are given conscience for good reason -like an early warning system it not only signals danger -it also may signal further understanding is required -understanding to be gained with Church teaching -NOT moral relative compromise or subjective reasoning...

Steve,

Other false and or pagan religions or cults are not esteemed -ONLY the Truth they may observe, witness to and teach is -THAT is what in essence lends the esteeming aspect...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), February 04, 2005.


(sorry but it was in Vatican 2)

Steve,

Why are you sorry about this?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), February 04, 2005.


Steve's response that the Catholic Church has already commented on a number of Religions is a good start, however.

Pat,

Good start for what?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), February 04, 2005.


Daniel

Let me be clearer.

  1. I said "Any person's Religion and their act of praying is not bankrupt to me." and added that I realized some people may suggest this was invalid, as certain cults consider themselves relgions, which I tried to make clear wasn't my point
  2. You asked "How does one determine if a religion or teaching is false -e.g. World Peace Village? Would I just guess?"
  3. Steve did a good job of explaining that that isn't the point here. The original posting listed Religions that most people would agree fit the English definition of the word "Religion", not "cult" (and did a good job of mentioning the fact that from a religious point of view each will have different value to people of different religions, but again, not the point
  4. I suggested you start a separate thread here, asking how to determine the difference between cults and Religions, as I find it interesting, but NOT part of this conversation.
  5. Steve responded to your question Would I just guess? with "No you don’t have to guess. In the case of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, The Church has stated ... that it esteems and respects these religions and that they have many worthy and uplifting elements.
  6. I then said that Steve's point that the Catholic Church has already commented was a great start; a great start to at least excluding certain groups from the "Is it a cult?" conversation
  7. My appolgies to everyone who was already seen this in the appropriate thread, but I'll repeat these quotes I found on the Vatican Web site here for Daniel's sake. They also DO somewhat provide insight into the original question. The following quotes don't say Catholics should mirror these Religions practices, but it sounds like "the local Catholic (Novus Ordo) school" was at least trying to follow this advice.

    - - - On Buddism

    Please bring back to Japan Our heartfelt greetings and good wishes to your brother Buddhists, to your countrymen whom We love and admire greatly.

    from Address Of Paul VI to the Representatives of Japanese Buddhism Monday, 7 November 1966

    - - - On Judaism

    Religious teaching, catechesis and preaching should be a preparation not only for objectivity, justice, tolerance but also for understanding and dialogue. Our two traditions are so related that they cannot ignore each other. Mutual knowledge must be encouraged at every level.

    From the Conclusion of on the correct way to present the Jews and Judaism in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church

    - - - Again on Judaism

    Pope John Paul II in the great Synagogue of Rome on April 13, 1986: "The Jewish religion is not to us 'extrinsic' but, in a certain way, it is 'intrinsic' to our religion. Therefore we have towards it relations which we do not have with any other religion. You are our favorite brothers, and, in a certain way, we could say our older brothers".

    Quoted in Why the Christian Faith Needs Judaism - by Card. Roger Etchegaray

    - - -

    Do a seach on the Vatican Web site for many more examples...

    -- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 04, 2005.


Daniel

I never said my answer was congruent with Catholicism, you yourself quoted the relevant point in my response:

But to me the answer is "Embrace such a Catholic school."

I am looking forward to your response on how congruent with Catholicism the quotes I've posted from the Vatican are.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 04, 2005.


I am looking forward to your response on how congruent with Catholicism the quotes I've posted from the Vatican are.

Pat,

Sacred Scripture & Apostolic tradition comprise Church teaching. The quotes you post are Catholic; however, interpretation and conclusion can never contravene the totality of Church teaching as Truth can not contradict Truth. In other words, context is important as is authentic interpretation -if contradiction is observed then necessarily understanding is lacking...



-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), February 04, 2005.


Daniel, thank you. I agree with your logic, and if we may remove it from the specific topic, add that a second possibility exists; that either of the two "truths" are not fully defined hence the contradiction. I strongly don't believe that is the source of the contradiction here, as the quotes from the Vatican were made by people with vastly greater context and authentic interpretation than I ever hope to obtain. For me the first step in understanding is exploring; that is what my conscience tells me to do. Exploring the true meaning of the question, exploring the apparent contradiction, exploring the foundations of even the seemingly solid assumptions. Part of that exploring is asking questions, attempting to view things from as many points of view as possible, and discussing things with other interested people. I thank you for taking part in my exploration.

I realize that this is not the path you suggest - you said the understanding [is] to be gained with Church teaching - NOT moral relative compromise or subjective reasoning.... In a funny way in this case we both ended up at the same point, I just took a few extra steps, as it was the quotes from the Vatican that ring true in my ears "Mutual knowledge must be encouraged at every level"... "The Jewish religion [...] is 'intrinsic' to [the Catholic] religion", and so on.

I only hope the path wasn't so long and drawn out that we've lost people like Nick who asked the original question.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 04, 2005.


“Other false and or pagan religions or cults are not esteemed”

Yes they are Dan. See Nostra Aetate “other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. …The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems.”

“(sorry but it was in Vatican 2) Steve, Why are you sorry about this?”

Well I know you insist that I provide a text to support everything I say, but some people here seem to reserve the right to disregard anything said in a document of Vatican 2, while others accept what Vatican 2 said only if it doesn’t contradict (in their minds) something said in a previous Catholic document.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 04, 2005.


I only hope the path wasn't so long and drawn out that we've lost people like Nick who asked the original question.

Nah, I'm still here. I appreciated the comments. For what it's worth, we went to the open house and registration, and we were pleasantly surprised. We hope the World Peace Village was just an aberration, but we intend to remain very vigilant. The school has almost a traditional feel to it, much more so than the three parishes in town. Beautiful, 50+ year-old statues of saints in every hallway and classroom. I suspect the school inherited the statuary when the three parishes went through the uglification of the 1970's.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), February 08, 2005.


The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions.

Steve,

Yes, that is quite an important point that must always be stressed - that was my point for stressing it!

As to Vatican II -the council was led by the Holy Spirit -however, the dissenters who cloak themselves in the "Spirit of Vatican II" meme while dissenting are not highly regarded by myself as they do damage to our Church.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), February 08, 2005.


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