Relationship between baptism and salvation - for Faith

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I'm not sure if this has been posted in any of the baptism threads previously, but for the sake of Faith, I'd like to post this.

Baptism is one of the 7 sacraments of the church. Sacrament is a latin term meaning "covenant". So each time one participates in one of the sacraments, one is entering into a covenant. Marriage is also a sacrament. We can learn a lot about baptism from marriage.

In marriage, one makes an oath or vow, before God, to become one flesh with one's spouse. This is the nature of a covenant, to make an oath, which is the deepest form of commitment possible. Does the bride and groom love each other prior to marriage - 'yes'. Are they committed to each other prior to marriage - 'yes'. In many ways, they've already mentally entered into a marriage-like relationship (and let's hope it's an asexual relationsip at this point). But it's only in the making of the vows that one actually becomes married and mystically, according to God, becomes one flesh with the other through the vows and consumating intercourse afterwards.

Baptism is similar. Can one love God before baptism - 'yes'. Can one be committed to God prior to baptism - 'yes'. But only in baptism, does one make the vows necessary to enter into the covenantal relationship with God in which we accept His eternal life and we pledge to live for God and mystically, according to God, we becomes one with God through our vows and consumating water baptism.

Hope that helps in your understanding.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 01, 2005

Answers

Sorry about that, hit submit before finishing.

So is baptism required for salvation? Well, if one dies before being able to be baptized, but wants to be baptized, then you would have what is considered baptism by desire and that would be sufficient. If one refuses to be baptized even though they know about it, then one is being rebellious from Jesus' instructions and does not enter into the covenant.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 01, 2005.


Thanks David.,

But I didn't really need any help in my understanding.

I understand that baptism is necessary--I just disagree as to just what true baptism is.

It sounds to me like you are a Catholic Christian. Non Catholic Christians recognize that Jesus established two sacraments--Baptism and the Lord's Supper., according to Scripture.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 01, 2005.


Wrong again, Faith, not all NON-Catholics believe as your particular sect does.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 01, 2005.

And also--the Baptism of Desire--isn't that Catholic doctrine too??

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 01, 2005.

I am in the Charismatic Episcopal Church which believes in the 7 sacraments and baptism by desire. I spent 20 years in the Assemblies of God which didn't believe those things (I was even a teacher there), but I've grown up some more in my faith and have a fuller understanding now, which I'm trying to share with you.

If you are interested in the truth about the sacraments, read Scott Hanh's book "Swear to God". It's a short read with clearly documented evidence about the sacraments in the early church and their meaning today.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 01, 2005.



Can he show that the documents are taught by jesus Himself in the new Testament?

If not--then I would not be interested.

I find that Jesus established only two sacraments.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 01, 2005.


Oh and if you want to be floored, and I mean jaw-dropping stunned, read Mike Aquilina's book "Mass of the Early Christians". It's so convincing of the veracity of the Eucharist and Mass, that you won't have a choice but to reject the empty symbol you probably have today to seek out the genuine Body and Blood of Christ.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 01, 2005.


What "documents" are you looking for?

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 01, 2005.


The genuine body and blood of Christ was given-up at the cross. That is where the once for all time sacrifice occurred...not on altars all over the world today and every day., over and over again. Sacrafices that need to be repeated like that--only need to be repeated because apparently they aren't good enough? Sort of like those animal sacrifices that the Jews had to constantly re-offer for their sin?

Have you ever really studied the book of Hebrews?

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 01, 2005.


Lol! Did I say documents? Heheh...

I don't know why I said that!

I meant sacraments...

It's getting too late for me.

I'll be back tomorrow after I paint much of the day.....doing a huge mural at church.

Good night!

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 01, 2005.



Faith,

Believe me when I say that I understand from whence you come. I realize the limitations of an online forum and our own time restrictions won't allow for a proper discussion of the sacraments and Eucharist in particular. Besides, until the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to want to see these truths, it'll be a vain effort.

Do yourself a favor though, get copies of those books I mentioned and just for kicks give them a read as time allows.

Here's a wonderous hint at the depth of the mysteries you'll uncover if you decide to dig some . . . in response to your Eucharistic statement about the Lord's sacrifice having to be repeated . . . the Eucharist, as a sacrifice in the Mass, is not so much a RE-sacrifice as a joining into the perpetual sacrifice that began when Jesus was "slain from the foundation of the world" to the Passover Supper in which Moses and the Israelites ate the Passover Lamb which was slain in their place, to the Passover Supper in which Jesus shared with His disciples instituting that His Church was to continue as a sacrament, to . . . are you ready . . . the Supper of the Lamb in the Book of Revelation. ALL of the these events are celebrating the exact same thing all at the same time - in fact, the Lord's Supper exists outside of time. So when the priest celebrates the Mass in a church today, he and the congregation actually, spiritually join Jesus and the disciples at the Passover meal and we also join with Jesus in the Revelation feast of the Lamb. We literally step out of time and into this eternal event that was and is and is to come.

We had a remarkable event that led to the conversion of 3 Wiccans recently in one of our parishes. They added a Mass out of curiosity. And when the Mass was completed, they were stunned, for at the moment of institution, when the bread and wine were changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, they said they could see spiritually that time had stopped and that something both ancient and eternal was occurring. It so awed them, that they renounced Wicca on the spot and became Christians.

Something to think about.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 01, 2005.


Ehhh, the statement "They added a Mass out of curiosity" should read "They attended a Mass out of curiosity."

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 01, 2005.


"For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come." (1 Cor: 26)

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), February 02, 2005.

Thanks Andrew! That verse has new meaning to me now that I understand the true, eternal nature of the sacrifice of the Mass.

I find it interesting that Faith and some Protestant churches recognize the Lord's Supper as a sacrament, but not marriage. Do they understand the meaning of "sacrament" and that is means "covenant"? Don't they realize that as the bride and groom state their vows before the minister and God, that they are entering into a covenant - that's what vows mean. So they are actually participating in a sacrament and treating it as a sacrament even if they fail to recognize it.

Oh, no sense rushing things. God will gradually show such truth to her if she asks God to teach her.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 02, 2005.


Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst. (John 6: 32-35)

The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? (1 Cor: 10: 16)

I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. (John 6: 51-52)

Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.(John 6: 54-57)

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), February 02, 2005.



Yes, marriage takes on new and glorious meanings when experienced as a "sacrament."

Hey, thanks for sharing that book Dave, the Non-Catholic Christian. Can't wait to get it.

BTW, Dave, are you Orthodox, episcopalian, or just what is your church affiliation? I know you've shared before, but I can't remember.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 02, 2005.


There is virtually no human words to describe the experience of Mass. My goodness, it is like standing on the precipice of the brink of the earth and glimpsing the Heavenly Jerusalem. Indeed, it is like time and space fall away, the encumbrances of the flesh vanish, and you are THERE!

I have had some incredible 'visions' during communion. It is so very sweet.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 02, 2005.


Hi Gail,

For you, Aquilina's book might be old news, cause he provides all of the early church father's writings that prove the Mass was pretty much fully in place in that first century. I know you are very familiar with the church fathers, but to me, it was stunning to see it so clearly illustrated. On the other hand, Hahn's book "Swear to God" should be required reading for EVERY Christian - I just can't recommend that book enough. He's an excellent teacher.

I'm in the CEC (Charismatic Episcopal Church) - www.iccec.org. It's not related to the Anglican church though. "Epsicopal" just refers to the form of government. Our doctrines are those of the Catholic Church prior to the Great Schism. We actually have a great relationship with the local Catholic diosese and Cardinal.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 02, 2005.


Thanks Dave, I just ran across that Hahn book you mentioned "Swear to God" somewhere else today. I have read many of Hahn's books and saw him in person at a seminar last year. He is a terrific speaker and teacher. His Bible study series is EXCELLENT. Our Church is studying the book of Matthew right now.

In fact, he was once a guest on the Bible Answer Man (Hank Hanengraf) show some years ago. He was debating James White (I think). I was Protestant then. I did NOT realize Hahn was Catholic until the end of the show and was frankly SHOCKED, since I had been agreeing with him the entire show! That was one of the many sign posts at the beginning of my journey into the faith.

I wonder if you're congregation will ever "convert" entirely into the Catholic faith. I have heard of many congregations doing that!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 02, 2005.


So Dave,

Does this mean that the Catholic Church has not always been the same?

Our doctrines are those of the Catholic Church prior to the Great Schism.

So you are not Eastern or Western Orthodoxy, you are not Traditional Catholic-which was is Catholic Church prior to Vatican II...etc...

Seems there is plenty of division to go around for all of us. Yet Jesus said that His Church can not be divided. How do you suppose this could be true? Who is the true Church?

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 02, 2005.


Dave, since you like the Fathers, here is a link to a great site that has Church Father quotes broken down according to category so that if you want to see what the Fathers had to say about Baptism, Eucharist, Mary, etc. you can find them already categorized.

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm

Here's a great one concerning how the Church Fathers equated "Born Again" with Baptism:

"But you will perhaps say, What does the, baptism of water contribute towards the worship of God? In the first place, because that which hath pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because, when yon are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so at length you shall be able to attain salvation; hut otherwise it is impossible. For thus hath the true prophet testified to its with an oath: 'Verily I say to you, That unless a man is born again of water, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Therefore make haste; for there is in these waters a certain power of mercy which was borne upon them at the beginning, and acknowledges those who are baptized under the name of the threefold sacrament, and rescues them from future punishments, presenting as a gift to God the souls that are consecrated by baptism. Betake yourselves therefore to these waters, for they alone can quench the violence of the future fire; and he who delays to approach to them, it is evident that the idol of unbelief remains in him, and by it be is prevented from hastening to the waters which confer salvation. For whether you be righteous or unrighteous, baptism is necessary for you in every respect: for the righteous, that perfection may be accomplished in him, and he may be born again to God; for the unrighteous, that pardon may he vouchsafed him of the sins which he has committed in ignorance. Therefore all should hasten to he born again to God without delay, because the end of every one's life is uncertain." Recognitions of Clement,6:9(A.D. 221),in ANF,VIII:155

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 02, 2005.


The CEC was birthed only 14 or so years ago. It's founding members were mostly pentecostals who felt led by God to embrace the 3 streams of Christianity - the liturgical/sacrmental, the evangelical, and the charismatic. We don't discount any of the denominations and view us all as a family - albeit dysfunctional. We know we live in a different house than our brothers and sisters in different denominations, but we call them family and respect them. In our services, you'd experience lengthy and powerful charismatic worship, healing prayer time, prophectic words, strong teachings, salvation calls AND the liturgy of the Mass. As our priest likes to say, we have enough to offend everyone :-) At present, we are considered the fastest growing denomination with especially strong growth in Africa and the Phillipines.

So in reality, we're people who are coming FROM a position of division TOWARD a position of unity. But it's not necessary that we have to actually join another in order to be "unified". Some have discussed the potential of joining the Catholic Church while others think the same way about joining the Orthodox Church - both of whom were the original Church.

Personally, I think that we can be "unified" in Christ without having to be unified in government and necessarily in all doctrines, as long as we agree to the Apostles Creed - the minimum required set of beliefs for Orthodoxy, if you will.

And God is doing an awesome work in us right where we are, so there's no specific move in either direction though we have had discussions with both to establish a mutual understanding and dialogue.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 02, 2005.


Thanks very much for the link, Gail!

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 02, 2005.


Sounds cool, Dave.

I think you'll love the link I provided.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 02, 2005.


That's interesting David,

I have no problems with it. I wonder though--do you belive in every doctrine that the Catholic Church does--such as the doctrines about mary? And if yes, why are you not in the Catholic Church? What makes you different?

And how do you harmonize the idea that Jesus said His church cannot be divided--yet we can see such division?

In my mind--the unity must be spiritual--in His Body of true believers which He has hidden for right now...

In this respect, I could agree with what you said here:

Personally, I think that we can be "unified" in Christ without having to be unified in government and necessarily in all doctrines, as long as we agree to the Apostles Creed - the minimum required set of beliefs for Orthodoxy, if you will.

I think God can and does do an awesome work in many different denominations--which proves to me that there is a difference in what He meant by church--as in His Body.., and Church--as in an assembly or congregation here on earth..

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 02, 2005.


There are indeed differences in my beliefs than from Catholic beliefs. And 'yes', many of those disagreements involve Marian doctrines. But I no longer view those disagreements as obstacles to unity. I'm no longer offended by them as I was before. I understand them better and understand how they got there. The Lord has helped me to set aside such disagreements for the sake of unifying in Christ.

When I would attend large conferences and witness God moving in powerful ways upon all who attend, and then realize that there are believers from every conceivable denomination there. I remember attending one in which an entire row of priests and nuns were being hit with such a power of the Holy Spirit that none could stand up. This was while I was in the A/G church and strongly disagreed with Catholics. Yet, here they were attending a "Pentecostal" conference and I could see with my eyes and my spirit that they were so filled with God's love and joy that they were overcome by His Presence. I was faced with the fact that God was pouring out His Spirit in the same way, and in sometimes greater ways, upon those I disagreed with. It rather shamed me to know that God cared less about our disagreements over doctrines than I did - very humbling.

'Yes' - I believe the Church is ultimately a spiritual Body of believers that crosses all denominations. Was it God's Will for divisions? Absolutely not. But faced with human sin and our tendency for taking the wrong paths, His Will operates much as it does in my own life, making the best of my own mish mash of obedience and disobedience to still direct me to His true course by the end.

Personally, I really appreciate the way the Orthodox handle doctrine. There's a limited set of doctrines that were established by 800 AD by councils of bishops in the Catholic Church. They've never changed those doctrines and hold them to be the only ones required for salvation. Everything else they place in the category of Sacred Tradition which is taken seriously, but is not mandatory to believe and is not required to be in good status with the Church. Ultimately, I believe that is the model that will lead to a Unity. A set of basic beliefs that we all must share and liberty with respect to areas of disagreements. The center of all must be our Unified Love for God.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 02, 2005.


Hi again, Dave.

I soooo understand your yearning for "orthodoxy." That was the driving impetus in my search of the Church, though I didn't know that's what I was looking for.

I kept hearing that word "orthodox" being thrown around all over the place, but no one could really explain to me how they knew their church was orthodox. That's where the Fathers come in. They point to orthodoxy, they scream for orthodoxy and they really ARE orthodoxy.

The doctrinal confusion, fad doctrines, and chaos within Protestantism drove me back to "whence I came."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 03, 2005.


Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

Exactly.

By the way, I meant to mention to you earlier with respect to your 'visions' during Eucharist. I understand what you're talking about, though the Lord has only seen fit to show me a brief vision one time in my life - it was during our worship time once last year - and I've never had a dream from God now that I think about it. I'm just one who God doesn't speak to in dreams or visions. I mentioned that to my priest who said blessed is he who has never seen, but still has faith :-)

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 03, 2005.


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