Logical Explanation of God (s)?

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Picture the scene;

Its a few thousand years ago, humans have gathered into groups of countries and cities etc. Now the governing few are left with a problem...how do you get a largly uneducated population to follow a set of rules telling them how to behave to benifit the society or in some cases the government?

Well you can't just write out some rules and tell them to follow them, they'll just question you and attack at your attempt to control them.

So you create an unspecific deity (in the case of Christianity), to reinforce, amaze and when necessary scare people into following the rules. This way it works. So there are no early depictions of god, because the second you show people what they look like, they'll say..."wait, thats not what I thought they'd look like, hang on, this is just utter bollocks".

Or you could make the deities so specific in terms of appearence, that no one would even think about questioning them.

Surely this is more logical then there being God's who exist and plant evidence that indicates they don't? is it?

an even better picture:

Its still a few thousand years ago or so, a little before the regime had been opressed through James' deity idea.

One man (Trevor), suddenly realises that he's inhabiting a land he knows nothing about, having always just accepted the reality that he simply exists. With a brain bleeding struggle, the penny drops and he's suddenly aware of the blindingly obvious fact that there is an ultra bright ball in the sky that gets lighter and darker at almost identicle times each day.

"oh" Says Trevor, whilst holding a flaming torch (it's night time). "When it gets dark I make light with fire so I can see... I wonder who make big fire up there?"

...and so Trevor gets on the vine to Judy, his correspndant; the two discuss and formulate their ideas of a superhuman who possesses the ability to light the entire Earth wonderfully each day.

The news soon spreads. Even the most intelligent of minds at the time believe the idea and preach it, because its modern science... naturally the mass consumers fail to see any other possible explanation, what with the lack of space travel and atomic force microscopes.

Its not long before a whole load of morals are thrown in by the greetings card companies who agree to the publishing rights of the information so posterity will have a copy after the patents of the idea have all died off.

-- Jim (jamlen2534@aol.com), February 03, 2005

Answers

It only works if we have no evidence of the existence of God. But since He keeps intervening in the affairs of man and doing all those miracles and all . . and then there's Jesus who can't be denied . . . up 'til the point of reality, you're little mindless theory works. The problem with your theory is we don't have a passive, uninvolved God. All of us who follow Him in Christ have had personal encounters with Him and will testify to that even if threatened with death. Imaginary "gods" can't buy that kind of loyalty, so in our view, He's alive and real.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 03, 2005.


Your first scenario is sheer fantasy. All societies, both atheistic and theistic, make laws dictating required behaviors and forbidding undesired behaviors, and they ensure that people follow the rules by providing penalties for not doing so. A society doesn't need a god to provide incentive for obeying the laws of the state. Furthermore, members of various religions have historically opposed the laws of the state when those laws were unjust.

As for Trevor, he is obviously a logical thinker. He realizes that the sun (more specifically, the matter and energy which compose it) could not exist unless they had an origin, and that they could not have had an origin except as the effect of a pre-existing cause. He recognizes the obvious fact that a cause which predated the matter and energy of which the natural universe is composed would necessarily have to be a non-natural entity. He acknowledges that the existence of a supernatural Creator is the only logical explanation for the existence of the natural universe. He has logically deduced the inescapable reality of God.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 03, 2005.


Picture the scene;

Its a few thousand years ago, humans have gathered into groups of countries and cities etc. Now the governing few are left with a problem...how do you get a largly uneducated population to follow a set of rules telling them how to behave to benifit the society or in some cases the government?

{CONSIDERING EVOLUTIONART hISTORY, ABD EVEN FRM A bIOLOGICAL AND ATEISTIC EIW, THE ANSWER IS " oUT OF SOCIAL NESSESITY". mANIS A SOCIAL ANIMAL, AND AS A CONSEQUENCE WILL NEED A CHAIN OF AGREEMENTS TO ORGINISE A SOCIEY AROUND, ELADERS, ECT... THISWIL FORM NATURLALY AS MANS NEED TO INTERACT WITH HIS FELLOWS EXISTS, AND WILL DO SO IN THE ABCENSE OF RLEIGIOUS BELEIFS, ON THIS YOUR "lOGICAL EXPLANATION OF gOD" FALLS FLAT.}-Zarove

Well you can't just write out some rules and tell them to follow them, they'll just question you and attack at your attempt to control them.

{uhm, have yiu nor read hisotry? Most societies develop laws and manage to do just fine with them, even without invoking a diety... because ultimatlry it becomes a social nessesity...}-Zarove

So you create an unspecific deity (in the case of Christianity), to reinforce, amaze and when necessary scare people into following the rules.

{excep that christainity didnt "Create" a new deity to imose and frighten people. in fact, Chrisyainity's God is NOT righting to beelivers, sicne God loves you enough to die for you and calls you Him. The personal relaitonhsip with God that is central tot he christain Faith is itsself evidence agsint your vriw.

That and the obviosu fact hat Civil rules and laws existed prior to Christainity.

If Christainity spacificlaly got started only to take an uneducated and unruely crowd and make them a civilised culture, then Christanity wodln exist at all, sicne Judaism alreayd managed that just fine...so did Pagan rome.

Interstignly, Christainity inhereted God form the Jews, and isn even a new God at all...

all this said, as noted above, mankinfd inevitabley builds social riles and laws and orginises itsself, base don Biology alone, and needs no rleigion to do such...}-Zarove

This way it works. So there are no early depictions of god,

{Please spel it God, and incednetlaly Pagans depict variosu gods all the time, and are fairly ealry in History...}-Zarove

because the second you show people what they look like, they'll say..."wait, thats not what I thought they'd look like, hang on, this is just utter bollocks".

{Uhm... that makes no snece. acordign to this Logic, the reaosn peopel don make graven images is because they woidl disagre and soiety woidl fall apart.

yet the egyptians reighens for 3000 years with several Idols manufactured and never experienced thisproblem. The Greeks buolt eloquent, lifelike statues of their gods and prayed othem through these statues, and didnt flal apart, but thrived.

Same for the romans.

And the Norse. And the Celts.

So, how do you expalin all the Idol worhsippers and their thrivign societies?}-Zarove

Or you could make the deities so specific in terms of appearence, that no one would even think about questioning them.

{OR...i ocund just be that the dieties were beelived base don observation. whthte Pagans the gods wher personigicaitos fonatural forces, for instance. Poepel may hav alreayd beleived in gods before rleigions developed, whiuch is what Most Anthropologists tend to beleive...}-Zarove

Surely this is more logical then there being God's who exist and plant evidence that indicates they don't? is it?

{Not relaly. Interestignly yospleld it Gods, when using it genriclaly, and god when speacking it a a proper noun...

This is Gramamticlaly imporper.

And no, your logic fils becuase hisotry and Biology and Psycologyspeak againt it.

Mankind is rleigious by benefit of Nature, and relgiosn emerge as Mans need to feel spiritually fulfilled emerges, but , though rleigion cna be a civilisign factor, civilisations can and do emerge withotu rleigiosu impetus, since man is a social naimal and such thigns as laws and social norms will inevitabley be invented without rligion, so if God wa sinvented soley for tothe purpose you propose, then it widl not flow logiclaly that all cultures woi Beleive in God, sicne nto all culturs woidl need God, or gods, to buld form...}-Zarove

an even better picture:

Its still a few thousand years ago or so, a little before the regime had been opressed through James' deity idea.

{so you copied soemoen elses?}-Zarove

One man (Trevor), suddenly realises that he's inhabiting a land he knows nothing about, having always just accepted the reality that he simply exists. With a brain bleeding struggle, the penny drops and he's suddenly aware of the blindingly obvious fact that there is an ultra bright ball in the sky that gets lighter and darker at almost identicle times each day.

"oh" Says Trevor, whilst holding a flaming torch (it's night time). "When it gets dark I make light with fire so I can see... I wonder who make big fire up there?"

{This is the logiczl approach, but the problem is it ignores mans religiosu instincts.

Man tends to be rleigious BY NATURE, and instinctuvley beleives i some grand power, een without lgical progression, thougy ligicalprogresion like you are describing does buld rleigion ot explain these spiritual insincts.}-Zarove

...and so Trevor gets on the vine to Judy, his correspndant; the two discuss and formulate their ideas of a superhuman who possesses the ability to light the entire Earth wonderfully each day.

{But woudnt they alreayd have such a notion, since its inherent in the Human Brian? Religiosity is an innate part of Humanity, and pepel tend ot alreayd hav a senc of "soemthign out there" scne birth... they may oerocme it by raitnalisaiton, but tis still there...}-Zarove

The news soon spreads. Even the most intelligent of minds at the time believe the idea and preach it, because its modern science... naturally the mass consumers fail to see any other possible explanation, what with the lack of space travel and atomic force microscopes.

{Soace travel doesnt relaly prove God doesnt exist lad, and this Modenr sicnece idea relalypresuposed thse peopel had a post- enlightenment midnset. They likely did not, and woidl not use a chain of logic as you described.

You also forget the natural rleigiosity of man wlel known to Biologists and Psycilogiss.

You forget the logical proofs of God poverall.

basiclaly, your here to vlaidate your Atheism...}-Zarove

Its not long before a whole load of morals are thrown in by the greetings card companies who agree to the publishing rights of the information so posterity will have a copy after the patents of the idea have all died off.

{Patents? The idea of Plagerism didnt even exist till around the middle ages! you vannot make ancint cavemen think like Modern westerners!}-Zarove



-- zarove (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 03, 2005.


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