Second marriage to Catholic woman

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I was married for 10 years and have now been amiably divorced for eight years. Yes I do know in the eyes of the Catholic church I am still married.

I now want to marry a Catholic woman - she wishes me to annul my first marriage so that I can marry her in The Catholic Church. My former wife has become extremely ill and disabled long since our divorce, but I still find it very distasteful to have to ask her for this - we have three children together.

Hope this doesn't offend anyone but is there ever an exception made to allow a "divorced" person to marry in the Catholic Church without an annulment? My future depends on this - my GF says she won't consider going on unless "I can make things right".

-- James (anon@anon.com), February 08, 2005

Answers

If both you and your first wife were baptized Christians, then the answer is no. If not, then there are processes (called the Pauline privilege and the Petrine privilege) for dissolving your first marriage. Unlike an annulment, these processes do not declare that your first marriage was null. However, there are conditions attached to these processes, and you still need to go through the diocesan tribunal.

I apologize for the poor taste of my next remark, but I feel I ought to give you all the information for the sake of completeness. And you probably already know this, but if your first wife should die, you would be free remarry in the Catholic Church.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), February 08, 2005.


No we were both baptised.

Out of interest can someone explain the Pauline privilege and the Petrine privilege?

As to my former wife's health I am well aware that if she dies I am free to remarry in the Catholic Church. She has MS so that could be next year or it could be 20 years - her health is up and down. She is the mother of my children and I hope she has many more years of worthwhile life.

But as to me remarrying my new partner, she won't hear of anything else except a wedding in a Catholic Church. Which it seems I can't give her - so she is going to have to decide whether to stay or go.

-- James (anon@anon.com), February 08, 2005.


Scroll to the bottom of here for details on the Pauline and Petrine privileges.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), February 08, 2005.

"is there ever an exception made to allow a "divorced" person to marry in the Catholic Church without an annulment?"

No.

Talk to your (1st) wife about having the marriage annulled. BTW you mention your children a couple of times, just in case you are thinking it - THEY WILL NOT BE DECLARED ILLEGITIMATE if the marriage is annulled.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 11, 2005.


> "is there ever an exception made to allow a "divorced" person to marry in the Catholic Church without an annulment?"

A: This question could be paraphrased as "Does the Church ever officiate at a marriage without first determining that both parties are actually eligible for marriage?" Obviously if the Church did so it would be totally irresponsible in the Church's role as guardian of souls.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 12, 2005.



Thanks for all your replies. My point was that due to my former wife's state of health I HATE to have to ask her for this. Her new partner walked out last year when the going got tough, and she is still very upset about it.

I have talked to my girlfriend and told her that I love her very much and would do anything possible to make her happy, but I am not prepared to annul my marriage. I did marry my first wife when we were much too young, (18) and I believe I could get this but I will not ask this of her right now, possibly ever.

I have talked to a Catholic friend already and I did know that my children would not be declared illegitimate by their parents having their marriage annulled. I don't mean anyone any offence on this board, but I do believe the process of annulment to be flawed. I have had a couple of friends, who luckily had ex-partners who agreed to this, who have lied to get an annulment. I have an honest divorce from my first wife and I don't feel I can ask her for more.

That being said, thanks again for all your help and advice.

James

-- James (anon@anon.com), February 12, 2005.


James, the tribunal is made up of human beings who sometimes make mistakes. When people lie to them and they are unable to see through the lie (for lack of other evidence or because the lie seems plausible) that does not mean the PROCESS is flawed. As far as your friends are concerned, lying under oath (lying to, in effect, their Bishop and their whole Church) is a serious sin. It's true that Christ has told the bishops “whatevere you bind or loose on earth will be considered bound or loosed in Heaven”. But if your friends' marriage was declared invalid as a result of their lie then they know in their hearts that any subsequent marriage during the life of their first spouse is based on a lie and is likely to be a failure.

Btw the fact that you were only 18 is not in itself grounds for arguing that the marriage is invalid.

I hope this doesn’t offend you, but I think you should consider the possibility that God is calling you to care for your wife in her illness. As you say it may be for a year or 20 years, God knows. But you promised to care for her “in sickness and in health”. Your new “partner” sounds like a lady who has got it all together. I am sure she will only respect and love you more if you care for your sick wife.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 12, 2005.


Well as it happens since her partner left last year, I have paid for help to go in and give my ex-wife a hand. She is only 38 and this allows her to stay in her own home (with my two younger children) at present rather than go into a hospice although this will inevitably happen at some point. However I will never go back and live with her, she would hate it and so would I. I can't put my chidren through the rows and fighting that used to go on when we were married.

My girlfriend has now announced she is pregnant. What a mess!

-- James (anon@anon.com), February 13, 2005.


“My girlfriend has now announced she is pregnant. What a mess! “ You make it sound as though it is a situation she caused all by herself. I presume you had something to do with it? I will pray for you all.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 13, 2005.

Apologies for the poor taste of my last post. I am not trying to ask for advice on my personal problems as that is not what this board is about. I only want to know one more thing.

I am still not prepared to annul my marriage at this time and my GF has agreed to a civil ceremony, although she is obviously very unhappy about this. I am happy for her to bring our child up Catholic. I am assuming that he/she can be christened and will be able to participate fully in the activities of the Catholic Church? Sorry for my ignorance and once again thanks.

-- James (anon@anon.com), February 14, 2005.



The invalidity of your future 'marriage' will not have any bearing on your future children's acceptence into the Catholic Church. Having said that, the children would probably be quite confused as to why Mommy and Daddy don't and can't particiapte at Church the same way they can.

My recommendation - if you are not willing to investigate whether or not your previous marriage is valid, then don't attempt marriage with your GF. It is not fair to any future children, your GF, your wife, or yourself.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 14, 2005.


I don't think I've made it clear that I am not Catholic nor is my first wife. We are Church of England. Now this annulment is no more than a piece of paper to me, I consider my divorce as having ended my marriage. But the annulment means everything to my girlfriend.

I did broach the subject with my first wife a while back - she was made very distressed and unhappy by the idea and instilled these feelings into our children. I taken advice given to me by a poster on this forum and have tried talking to her again this evening with the same negative response.

My wife's illness has changed her personality somewhat which is hardly surprising. She was a very fit woman who is now wheelchair bound and increasingly dependent on others. I think at one time she would have agreed to my request without a second's hesitation and wished me well in my second marriage. I think somehow she thinks that an annulment means I am abandoning her.

The only way that I could get this is try ro get this without her agreement. All I can say is how can I in the circumstances?

-- James (anon@anon.com), February 14, 2005.


James..I'd like to offer my 2 cents to you.. First, your girlfriend, as a Catholic, has a few very grave issues to deal with..she is living in a state of mortal sin..why? Because she has been having sexual intercourse with a man who is still validly married to another woman..This is adultery. She knows this.if she didn't, she wouldn't be asking you to proceed with an annulment. Secondly, by her agreeing to a civil marriage, she also knows that this "marriage" isn't accepted by the Church and for HER, it doesn't change anything..

All of this may mean nothing to you, yet it means a great deal to her. Do you love this woman? If so, how much do you love her? Already she is full of concern about the state of her soul, now she is pregnant as well??? I feel very sorry for her. Even more so since she must wonder how to deal with all of this when hearing that you will not proceed with an annulment application because you don't want to "upset" your "former" wife.

I too am disabled and spend my day in a wheelchair..lots of pain every day, 24/7. It's not fun. May I observe that perhaps you MIGHT be using your wife's physical status as an excuse? Remember I said "MIGHT"..Since neither one of you are Catholic, it is understandable that your wife may not comprehend the nature of the annulment process and think that it is similar to that of a civil annulment..it is not. The annulment does not make the children illegitimate, nor does it assign "blame" to anyone.

It is a process by which the Tribunal reviews the essence of the marital COVENANT..did one actually exist? If so, then the marriage is and will remain forever valid. If not, then no valid marriage ever took place and BOTH people are free to marry.

IMHO, you owe it to BOTH women to proceed with an annulment application, even if one doesn't agree..unless of course in your heart and soul you have a firm conviction before God that your marriage was, indeed a sacred covenant..in that event, you ought to return fully to your wife and reconcile yourself to her, while providing for the child of the other woman and ask God's forgiveness (and hers).

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2005.


James,

It doesn't matter that you and your "former" wife are not Catholic, the Laws of Marriage apply to Catholics only, as regards Form. If you and your "former" had been married on some beach in the South Pacific even though you could be both baptised Anglicans makes no difference - it is valid until an investigation proves otherwise. You cannot "re"marry without your first one being declared Null and Void. Annulments do not "end" a marriage, they declare that one never existed.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 14, 2005.


James

Your GF knew the score when she got involved with you. The way I see it is, if a Catholic wedding is so important to her then she should have found someone never married or who already had an annulment. Or insisted you got an annulment FIRST before she got involved with you. And it seems to me from what you say it is the actual style of wedding that is important to her for whatever reason. She didn't seem to have a problem with having sexual intercourse with you outside marriage - which is against the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Perhaps your first wife is being manipulative and trying to stop you marrying again. Is she scared of never seeing the children when the time comes and she can't cope? Or is it that she thinks that you will stop paying for someone to go in and help her? She might think she is going to be shoved in a hospice and left out of sight and out of mind? You need to talk to her and reassure her that these things arn't going to happen - if of course they arn't. Then perhaps she will consider an annulment.

I am assuming that you have discussed with your GF what will happen to your children if your wife is unable to care for them in the future? If she loves you enough to be prepared to take them on with her child if necessary, then I think you should at least try to see if you can annul your marriage and give her the wedding she so much wants.

-- Franny (Franny25@hotmail.com), February 15, 2005.



Hi

Thanks for all the new replies. At the moment apart from marrying when I was very young at 18, I can't see what grounds I have to annul my marriage and am going to have to seek advice on this. All I can say in my defence is, I didn't understand the importance of this when I got involved with a Catholic woman and asked her to be my wife. I believed a divorce would be enough.

I hope that she can forgive me if I find it is impossible to annul my first marriage, I never meant to cause her and her family this much pain and distress.

-- James (anon@anon.com), February 15, 2005.


James..please try to understand..your girlfriend may, indeed forgive you..yet by her knowledge of what she is DOING is sinful, and her willingness to DO IT ANYWAY,she is choosing to put herself in a situation of continuing mortal sin. She's choosing YOU over God..Can you see that? It is up to the Tribunal to decide if you have "grounds" or not..they are the experts on these matters. All you have to do is make out the application and be 100% truthful in your responses.

By your refusal to go forward with an annulment application, you force your girlfriend into a choice..stay with you and remain in mortal sin or leave you and get right with God Almighty. Love does not "conquer all"..harsh words but true. Eternity is forever.The sad fact is that your girlfriend's willingness to go through with a civil ceremony tells you that she loves you enough to risk her immortal soul..doesn't sound like a good trade to me from what you've said so far. I'll pray very hard that BOTH of you will get closer to God in your decisions..they certainly are weighty ones.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 15, 2005.


"She didn't seem to have a problem with having sexual intercourse with you outside marriage - which is against the teachings of the Catholic Church."

Franny,

A word of caution as regards statements such as the above. Have you ever sinned? Do you not know that committing any sin is against the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Now I will put it in Jesus' words: "Let the one who has not sinned cast the first stone."

That she had sexual relations with him outside the bonds of Holy Matrimony says nothing about her but that she is a human being, weak and with a propensity to sin. The Church is full of them, that's why Christ came.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 15, 2005.


Hello I'm back.

I've been having a think about all this. After sitting down together with my GF and my ex-wife and discussing this amid tears and recriminations, we have come to a decision on what to do. It's not going to be one that all the kind people who have given me advice will want to hear but it is this. My ex-wife and I am are not proceding with an annulment application.

This is probably an example as my GF has found out to her cost, of why it's better to get involved with someone of your own faith. As one advisor on this forum said "Annulments do not "end" a marriage, they declare that one never existed." I simply agree with this method of "ending" a marriage for want of a better word. I know and my former wife knows that our wedding day existed and at the time there were no secrets or hidden agendas within either of us, although we were too young. If we wanted to annul our marriage we would have to be very creative (as I understand many couples are)in our reasons for doing so.

We were happy for around ten years, until things started to go wrong for us - then that marriage ended. Until now things have been reasonably friendly as it should be when there are children involved. They are devastated by this and no matter what explaining I have done, they simply don't understand why Daddy wants to say his marriage to Mummy did not exist. Above all getting children through their parent's divorce as unscathed as possible, has to come first before anyone else's feelings or beliefs. They have been through a lot in the last few years with their mother's illness and her second husband upping and leaving last year, and I am not going to put them through anything else. And no I'm not using them as an excuse not to go through with an annulment before anyone throws that at me.

My GF is an adult and has the choice - stay and marry me in a civil ceremony or go and I will support our child. She has chosen to stay.

Thank you once again, all your kinds words and advice have really helped me come to a decision although you won't see this as the right one for my GF.

-- James (anon@anon.com), February 17, 2005.


In reposnse to the person who stated that the catholic church would not declare the children illegitimate,,,, let me retort

With an annulment decree Catholic Church tribunals maintain that marriages, even those of several decades duration and with grown children, were never sacramentally valid. These officials rule that 'in the eyes of God the [sacramental] marriage never truly existed.' Via an annulment mandate, the children would be told that the Catholic Church hierarchy has decided that God's sacrament and grace was not in their parents marriage ceremony. This means that their parents' marriage was never a sanctified union, i.e. God's sacramental grace was not present in the marriage. The hierarchy's mandate indicates that children of this kind of marriage were not in a spiritually graced family. This is what is actually written, which seems to indicate pretty clearly that the church would make the kids invalid. The civil courts of course would still consider them legitimate,,,,,,,, but what is important to you and your kids. You must decide this,,,,, not your ex,,, and not your GF Are you ready to accept the harsh realization that, if you could do it all over again, you would not have married the mother of your children and that their very existence is a regret to you? That is what you are saying by pursuing this annulment. The Catholic Church is not only giving you permission but also, in fact, encouraging you to view your first marriage as invalid and not blessed by God via an annulment. Furthermore The Pope himself has recently summoned a committee to review the annulment process having written extensively that far too many annulments are 'decreed' in the United States. Two of his recommendations to the Tribunals were: • Acknowledge the very negative effect which the annulment process foists on children • Distinguish between short-term marriages with no children, and those of several years+ duration Those in the annulment business who are on these Tribunals, usually male celibates, repeatedly state that "annulment has no effect on the children". This statement underscores a denial and ignorance intrinsic to the entire annulment procedure. In fact, when the tribunal decrees that the children were not the result of a valid and legitimate sacramental marriage there are many reports of devastating reactions in the children.

Just think about what you are doing and look into the Cannon laws of the church before doing something potentially devastating to your children!

Sorry for the blunt tough love,,,, but just being honest. Peace

-- Glenn G (gjgreil@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.


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