The Bible is your Infallible Authority

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The Bible is your Infallible Authority

These are just some verse that tells us the the Word of God is our Infallible Authority, above any man, including, the popes. priest, bishops, pastors, and including martin luther, calvin, etc...any man or woman.

My brothers and sister, do not fight me, just read God's Word, for what is written, was not written by me.

(2 Timothy 3:16 KJV) (16) All scripture {is} given by inspiration of God, and {is} profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV) (20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake {as they were} moved by the Holy Ghost.

(Hebrews 4:12 KJV) (12) For the word of God {is} quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and {is} a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

(Isaiah 55:10-11 KJV) (10) For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: (11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper {in the thing} whereto I sent it.

(John 5:39 KJV) (39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

(1 Peter 1:23 KJV) (23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

(Psalms 33:9 KJV) (9) For he spake, and it was {done}; he commanded, and it stood fast.

(Proverbs 30:5 KJV) (5) Every word of God {is} pure: he {is} a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

(Psalms 119:89 KJV) (89) For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

(Psalms 33:6 KJV) (6) By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

(2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV) (20) For all the promises of God in him {are} yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

(1 Peter 1:24-25 KJV) (24) For all flesh {is} as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: (25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

(Mark 13:31 KJV) (31) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

(Psalms 18:30 KJV) (30) {As for} God, his way {is} perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he {is} a buckler to all those that trust in him.

-- nolan (nolannaicker@webmail.co.za), February 10, 2005

Answers

Beautiful verses! But how do you know that they are the inspired word of God? What about the "gospel of Mary" or of "Peter" or of "Paul" or any other of the NUMEROUS books that are supposivly biblical? And just to add to that, how do you know how to interprut the TRUE meaning of the scriptures? Please do not say "by following what the Bible teaches," because we have already seen what this idea "solo scriptua" has done with all the, lets see 35,000 (or is it more) denominations out their ALL claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit and ALL coming to different conclusions on many many doctrines, some even detesting others on issues of abortion, or election vs. free will! God is not the author of confusion. He told hisapostles to be ONE, to have ONE faith, and that the Holy Spirit will guid them into ALL truth. Where is this truth when so many christians just continue to fight and fight and argue? It's a great depressing negative sign and attitude to the world as they look at Christianity.

So then there has to be an infalliable interpreter. Other wise what good is it to have an infalliable Bible? Well friend, the Catholic Church is where that ALL TRUTH is. Please come to her or at least do a study on Church history and the Roman Catholic Church seeing how we got the Bible and how the Churches bishops of today can literely be traces back in an unbroken line of succesion on documented paper to the APOSTLES OF CHRIST! Awesome!

God give you peace

-- Jason (enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.


Hi Jason

Sorry, God did not give us a “gospel of mary”, you can take that up with Him.

But he did say the following to us: (16) All scripture {is} given by inspiration of God, and {is} profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:(2 Timothy 3:16 KJV)

One of the biggest lies that the catholic church has instilled into you, is that “you can not interpret the Word of God for yourself”.

But God says (5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all {men} liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (James 1:5 KJV),

(8) I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. (Psalms 32:8 KJV)

(8) This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. (Joshua 1:8 KJV)

(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, {that} shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13 KJV)

So you see, you can interpret the Bible with the help of God and the Holy Spirit. Gods Word was is meant for the common man, not just the popes & priest.

With the Holy Spirit’s coming at Pentecost, and with the aid of the apostles’ teaching, Jewish Christians understood their own Scriptures as authoritative. Their common conviction was that the Old Testament, properly understood, was a revelation of Christ. There they found a prophetic record of the nature, teaching, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. The Old Testament Scriptures served as the standard of truth for the infant church. Within a short time, the New Testament Scriptures were combined with those of the Old Testament. Consequently, the early church was never without the written Word of God.

Remeber Paul commended the Bereans for using Scripture to verify the veracity of his teaching. "They received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true" (Acts 17:11). Here is an apostle, who wrote over half the New Testament, being held accountable to Scripture. This should be an exhortation for all of us to carefully challenge the teachings of every teacher! Every preacher, teacher, pastor, pope and priest should come under the same type of scrutiny. Don’t miss the fact that it was the lay people of the church who were individually responsible to interpret and test Paul’s teaching in the light of God’s word. We must all be good Bereans and reject any teaching not in harmony with Scripture.

In conclusion, it is clear that the Scriptures were written for individuals, not to a Magisterium or a group of clergymen

-- nolan (nolannaicker@webmail.co.za), February 10, 2005.


Hi Nolan.. What then, do you make of 2Thesallonians 2:15 ?? It clearly admonishes people to hold fast to NOT ONLY things written, BUT ALSO those "traditions" taught orally. The writer does not make any distinction between the two as of value or importance of any kind. He does not say "Only hold fast to those teachings or traditions which are written down." He does not say,"Everything MUST be written down eventually in order for you to follow them."

So, what do YOU think is meant by THIS particular verse of Holy scripture, coupled with that of the scripture stating emphatically that Jesus taught many things which were NOT written. ???

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 10, 2005.


What an amazing transformation is taking place; Nolan was no great exegesist two days ago, couldn't spell at all, was badly in need of a vocabulary.

And here is his latest: ''--An apostle, who wrote over half the New Testament, being held accountable to Scripture. This should be an exhortation for all of us to carefully challenge the teachings of every teacher! Every preacher, teacher, pastor, pope and priest should come under the same type of scrutiny. Don’t miss the fact that it was the ''-- -------------Nolan's copy-pasting whole paragraphs out of a protestant minister's tract; hoping to stump the Catholics all in one day! Oh, Lord! His knowledge expanded like a balloon; and we must have respect now, for his pronouncements!

But it's malarkey. We can dispute with this lad forever, he'll bring us more flim-flam.

To show what an absurdity he believes, here's a bit: ''lay people of the Church were individually responsible to interpret and test Paul’s teaching in the light of God’s word.''--!!! ------------ ------------------------ Nolan; they were satisfying THEMSELVES. Not testing Saint Paul; who had been selected personally by Jesus Christ when he was heading for Damascus! Paul needed no one's ''seal of approval'', by private scriptural interpretation. If the Bereans had wanted to reject an apostle, they would have; same as you are now about to reject Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching which comes from PAUL; and you'll call it false.

What is your lame excuse??? You think it's ''the light of God's Word!'' But it's not; it's your PRIVATE interpretation of God's Word.

The Bereans might well have misinterpreted the scriptures too. Paul was there to lead them to the more correct one with the Holy Spirit. The Bereans didn't raise a barricade against the Holy Spirit and Christ's apostle, as you and other unbelievers keep doing. You're blind to the light of God's Word. Your OWN false tracts tell you, ''carefully challenge the teachings of every teacher! Every preacher, teacher, pastor, pope and priest.'' Yet, you fall for THEIR flim-flam like a football. You just hate my Catholic pastor, pope and priest. You buy into ANY joke they sell you, out of plain prejudice.

We've been proving this to you, Nolan. But your heart is hardened against the infinite love of God Who wishes to convert you to His Gospel truth. You'd rather follow wolves in sheep's clothing. Save your bible tracts from that anti- Catholic wolf-pack. You'd be MUCH better off looking for yourself in the Holy Bible, without any stupid commentary from your self-ordained minister. He's no Saint Paul.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 10, 2005.


Yeah, it amazes me how people automatically believe the "Word" of God is the Written

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), February 10, 2005.


when was there a tradition then of the dogma of mary,of the use of contraceptives,papal infaillability,indulgences...among the early christians?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 10, 2005.

see 2Thesallonians 2:15..

then see the teachings of the Catholic Church and their oral traditions from the time of the early Church until now and what will remain so forever. It's a simple answer to all of your questions of "why is this or that NOT found in the bible."

Because the bible ITSELF says clearly that ALL teachings and traditions AREN'T found in the bible.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 10, 2005.


but traditions need to have a source...they need to be traditions from the beginning...and not somewhere in these 2000 brought out of nothing...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 10, 2005.

Who told you so, Wank?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 10, 2005.

In John 16: 12, right before His Passion, Jesus says, "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when He comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all truth." In other words, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Church gradually comes to understand Christ's teachings more deeply.

-- Michael Healy, Jr. (temuchinkhakhan@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.


sdqa..

did you read 2Thess 2:15 ??

Do you comprehend the import of the verse? Since you seem all of a sudden to have lost your Bible, I'll quote it for you from a King Jame's version:

"Therefore brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle."

So right there in the Holy Bible, sqda you have a complete verse which states with no uncertainty whatsoever that the "brethren" are to "hold the traditions" they have been taught "whether BY WORD OR OUR EPISTLE." What traditions were given by "word" you say? How CAN this be??? Simple sqda..The Catholic Church teaches, and has ALWAYS taught (see this verse) that the fullness of TRUTH is to be found not ONLY in Holy Scripture, BUT ALSO in ORAL TRADITION..gee, that's what this verse says also..!!!!!!!

And WHEN did this "oral tradition" begin? Obviously (see the gospel verse)..it began in the early Church.. Those who deny vehemently, as you do, that there is zero connection between the early Christian Church and the Catholic Church, miss this entirely. It's as simple as the alphabet..a is follwed by b and then c and so on. Jesus said to the apostles that whatever they bind on earth would be bound in heaven..they took Him seriously and so should you. The apostles DECIDED to make some rules, in addition to preaching the gospels..the "rules" concerned many things such as who would succeed them and how they would be selected. Does it surprise you that things were taught as TRUTH which are not written in the bible? See the verse telling you so.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 10, 2005.


sdqa..you're right..sacred traditions in the Catholic Church can all be traced back to the very beginnings of the Church.

The teachings against artificial contraception BTW are biblical.. The teachings concerning our Blessed Mother are a combination of scripture and oral tradition.

sdqa, if only you would seriously be asking these questions about the Catholic Church, you could learn much which would give you so many things to ponder in your heart of hearts.. There IS truth here. People may say things which wound you, yet God Almighty loves you and wants you to come to Him..even if you reject Him and mock Him here I suspect there is a spark of real longing in you.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 10, 2005.


Lesley,

2Thess 2:15 , Very good. That makes a great stumbling block for a new believer!

I'll take the challenge-

2Thess 2:15 , what does it mean, "traditions", you ask?

Very simple Lesley, Those are the traditions of our Fathers.

Oh yeah, our Fathers are those Jewish men of old that are spoken of in the Old Testament etc.

2Thess 2:15 , was written about 2000 years ago, uh so common sense would suggest that those traditions are not of the RCC but of Judaism.

Seems interesting that there are no Jewish traditons left in the so called "only true church" read RCC.

Lesley and all other cathaholics, I wonder how inspiring it might be for a youngster new to this thing might find how magnificent it is to learn of the "OLD" ancient "traditions" of Judaism, such as the feast days and what they really mean.

I hope you will understand what I am saying, but I too did not, until I erased my mind of the wine of the traditons of men and have replaced them with the traditons of Judaism which was given strictly by God himself.

This is one of my favorite sayings-"It is supposed to be like in the days of Abraham". I just love that one. I can chew on that till I die and it still tastes sooo sweet!

The Lord thy God is ONE!

Nolan, your on the right path, now take the next step!

-- a son (me@you.com), February 10, 2005.


a son,

You are lost -let me guess CoC?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), February 10, 2005.


a son,

Forget the previous question. Why don't you just expound on the Jewish faith...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), February 10, 2005.



You mean the traditions which Christ made light of, when He bawled out the Pharisees and Scribes for their traditions of men? No, that's not what Thess, 2 is about. Tradition as in the Church of the apostles; passed down orally in Church. Nothing was yet written, but the Gospel was preached already without a biblical record. On the day of Pentecost, after the coming of the Holy Spirit, Peter preached without a New Testament Bible; making more than 3,000 converts right away. His words were passed down in Tradition for a century afterward; before the written scriptures. Not only Peter's but the other apostles words too. They also used Old Testament texts, written well prior to Christ's birth.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 10, 2005.

To dismiss 2Thess 2:15 as referring to Old Testament scripture is quite a stretch..read the words of the verse..

"...which ye have been taught, either by word or by our epistle."

Since this is written to the "NEW CHURCH"..the Church of believers in Jesus Christ..the admonishment is to stand fast to BOTH forms of teachings of the NEW Church..that which they have HEARD, as well as that which has been sent to them in writing. The language is clear. If the writer had wanted to indicate the Torah, he certainly would have said so..as in: "hold fast to those traditions which ye have been taught, both in the past and what ye have had written to ye by us now. "

We can explain all night and day what is as clear as your own face in the mirror looking back at you, yet if your mind is closed to anything but your own interpretation, then why continue to even ask questions or post commentary on a Catholic forum?

The Catholic Church began with Jesus Christ. The apostles and Paul preached the gospel as well as many other teachings for several hundred years prior to the gathering of the Church's leaders in a Council which assembled and canonized Holy Scripture. The fullness of Truth is to be found, as it always has been, in both oral tradition and Holy Scripture. And ALL Christians believed this from the time of Christ walking the earth for over 1500 years. At THAT time, because a few men decided that somehow, the Holy Spirit must have made some sort of error for 1500 YEARS, they broke away from the ONE Church and as a result, there are today many churches instead of one.

And there is still only ONE Church which still teaches to "stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle."..ALL OTHERS have either abandoned the traditions, modified them, or gotten rid of them altogether and teach that "only stand fast to what ye have been taught in our epistles."

The Catholic Church hasn't changed in Theology since the days of Peter and Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John..not one iota.

And in the modern world, ALL other Christian churches..ALL of them, used to also preach and teach against artificial contraception..and divorce and remarriage, and homosexuality, and abortion.. One by one they are compromising their views. Truth doesn't compromise.

"stand fast"..the Catholic Church stands fast..to BOTH oral tradition and the Holy scriptures..as it has for over 2000 years.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 10, 2005.


Not all are compromised though. To be fair.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 10, 2005.

Nolan, I rejoice that there is no gospel of Mary, because that gospel was not inspired by God! There were many letters and gospels that were denied to be "God breathed" BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! After the council of Carthage of 397 a.d. the Bible was officialy put together and the Church after many years of careful study, fellowshiping, and prayer finaly told what books and letters were God breathed and what ones were not. Although it was not themselves, but the Holy Spirit that led them to that conclusion. You accept this I assume because you believe the books of the NT are God breathed.

But the point is (if you are not Catholic) how do you know what books are inspired and what ones are not? Can you not see what "Sola Scriptua" has done. I've said this before and after reading it I will continue to say it, I have even seen where a man interpreted scripture his own way trying to justify abortion as well as fornication (sex before marriage). The scriptures can say WHATEVER YOU WANT THEM TO SAY, just as long as you see it in scripture. Again I say why have an infalliable Bible if not ONE infalliable interpreter? The conflict has gone on far enough. I am scared to death what denomination or "private Christian" will pop out tommorow preaching HIS OWN beliefs from the Bible.

As for the rest, I think the others here have already answered. Check out some Catholic websites at least, here's one, from a former Protestant missionary as well: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM

God give you peace.

-- Jason (enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.


how can you be sure that it is not inspired by god,because the RCC tells so...so if the RCC tells us tommorow to jump through the window...you all would jump...what about the crusades...was that also inspired by god? the indulgences? the torture of the so-called heretics...etc...now don't say that these were things done by 'a couple of evil men'...the whole insitution taught so and stood behind it...it's not the same thing as the individuals who molest children...learn some history i suggest

the problem is...that you don't seem to get that the christian institution that was established in the time of constantine had nothing to do with the early church of peter that jesus talked about...things had changed...christianity became a political thing...it was commercialized...before of that it was even illegal...

i mean think for once...you trust 100% in this church...they did so many crimes before...they can teach whatever they want...because they are 'god' 's church...don't you think you've been brainwashed and manipulated a lot?

and does it mean if it says that the early church was the pillar and the foundation of the truth that the RCC can teach whatever they want and bring traditions up from nowhere? no...it was the pillar and the foundation of the truth because there were no scriptures back then and there was only the early church but this certainly doesn't mean that everything the church says is true and that they can bring up **** out from nowhere and suscribe it to god's name...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.


The scriptures can say WHATEVER YOU WANT THEM TO SAY, just as long as you see it in scripture. Again I say why have an infalliable Bible if not ONE infalliable interpreter? The conflict has gone on far enough. I am scared to death what denomination or "private Christian" will pop out tommorow preaching HIS OWN beliefs from the Bible.

[i'm scared to death the RCC does so like it has done many times before...]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.


“learn some history i suggest” LOL! Sdqa, the woeful ignorance of history YOU display right here is exceeded only by your inexplicable urge to vilify and calumniate an institution which has done you no harm.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 11, 2005.

It's interesting that Nolan seems to have abandoned this thread, not responding to the question concerning 2Thess 2:15, and here is sqda posting away, having left another thread without responding to the same question. ..

sqda..do you think for yourself on these issues or do you simple parrot what you cut and paste from anti-Catholic sites?

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 11, 2005.


i write all my **** by myself exept once...and that was when i wanted to prove sola scriptura

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.

but i really despise the RCC

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.

I wish I were mistaken, but I have to think sdqa is compelled by the devil to fly in and out of here like a bat. For no useful purpose except to aggravate the faithful. He wouldn't be coming every day unless for two reasons:

He wants to think about what Catholics teach. A possibility he never exhibits. He's filled with hatred.

The other: we are dealing with a person manipulated by the devil; he can't help what he's doing. In which case we have to pray for his deliverance. It won't be easy.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 11, 2005.


NOT (all) catholics just the RCC,but i also really really despise religious fundamentalism/fanatiscism/conservatism...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.

The other: we are dealing with a person manipulated by the devil;

hahahahahaha

hahahahahahahahaha

you're funny hahahaha

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.


You and the devil call Jesus Christ's Church RCC. But you're afraid to give your own name here, aren't you?

The Rite of Exorcism, to drive out a devil; begins with this question:

What is your name?

The demon resists telling his name. He tries to keep it secret. That's a warning to us about you. --You hide your name. Ha ha hahahaha! Are you possessed???? Tell the truth. Hatred for holy things is one sign. You hate everything holy, don't you? That's why you keep saying ''RCC''. What's your name, devil servant?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 11, 2005.


> "the problem is...that you don't seem to get that the christian institution that was established in the time of constantine had nothing to do with the early church of peter that jesus talked about...things had changed..."

A: The problem is ... if this is true, Jesus was a liar, because He promised He would be with His Church - the one He founded - the one Peter belonged to - until the end of time. How could He keep this promise if that Church no longer existed after a few hundred years, but was replaced by something entirely different, as you claim? The problem is ... absolutely nothing new was established during the time of Constantine. The Church after Constantine had the same doctrines, the same sacraments, the same priesthood, exactly the same structure it had for three centuries before Constantine. There were thirty-three Catholic Popes before Constantine's time, so its absurd to say that the "institution" of the Catholic Church began during his lifetime. There were also numerous writings by Fathers and Doctors of the Catholic Church long before Constantine's time, all of them proclaiming the same doctrinal truths that continued to be proclaimed after Constantine. This kind of nonsensical claims doesn't impress anyone. They just publicize the writer's ignorance of history, which of course is merely a reflection of the ignorance of his sources.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 11, 2005.


BTW, there's not a thing wrong with calling the Church the "Roman Catholic Church"..my own archdiocese of St. Louis proudly proclaims itself as "Roman Catholic" on their website in big bold letters. So sqda, you are not being insulting as you wish to be.

The reason that I asked you if you think for yourself, is that it is incredibly easy to simply mouth other people's ideas..it's much more difficult to actually make it your business to get out and away from your computer, go to a decent library, and FIRST, do some serious research on "History of Christianity"..use resources such as ancient Roman writings..use resources from world-reknown scholars of HISTORY who aren't associated in any way with any religion..archeologists for example.. Then look up the "History of the Roman Catholic Church"..then look up the "History of the Protestant Reformation"..then try reading about the "History of Fundamentalism"..when you're done with all of that, you'll find more interesting reading on the subject of the "History of the Scriptures".. THEN, you may be able to form your own "opinion" .

Without ANY impartial reading whatsoever, nor any knowledge of historical FACTS, when soneone posts things which any well-read Junior in high school can easily refute it tends to make them look incredibly foolish. I don't know anyone who WANTS to appear foolish..it's one thing to disagree with Catholic dogma.it's quite another to be blatantly ignorant of historical facts.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 11, 2005.


Daniel,

Coc-doubtful.

You want me to expound on the Jewish faith? Ok, read the Torah/old Testament, it explains it much better than I can. It's a beautiful religion that has but ONE God and they have like 10 Laws to live your life by. Very simple and very sweet!

-- a son (me@you.com), February 11, 2005.


Lesley,

***" To dismiss 2Thess 2:15 as referring to Old Testament scripture is quite a stretch..read the words of the verse.. "...which ye have been taught, either by word or by our epistle." "***

-"By word"-the Torah, "by epistle"-letters which are answers of questions that have been asked.

***"Since this is written to the "NEW CHURCH"..the Church of believers in Jesus Christ..the admonishment is to stand fast to BOTH forms of teachings of the NEW Church..that which they have HEARD, as well as that which has been sent to them in writing. The language is clear. If the writer had wanted to indicate the Torah, he certainly would have said so..as in: "hold fast to those traditions which ye have been taught, both in the past and what ye have had written to ye by us now. "***

-You are correct, but those "writings" are THE TORAH!!!

***" We can explain all night and day what is as clear as your own face in the mirror looking back at you, yet if your mind is closed to anything but your own interpretation, then why continue to even ask questions or post commentary on a Catholic forum? "***

- my mind is not closed, in fact quite open. You don't like it when someone tells you their way is right and the rest, to the highway, do you? Smells like RCC way to me!

I agree with you that the RCC hasn't changed since the time you have suggested. It was, is and will continue to be the same **** in sheeps clothing that it started out as. Sorry if that offende you, but it really is a fact that the Jewish religion is the only true church that has existed. Some 2000 years ago a people decided that they did not like the way things were and made their own laws and such and became the RCC. I find it interesting that the same stones that the RCC throws at the protestant churches can be thrown right back at them by the Jewish people as well. The only difference here is that the Jewish religion is the right one because it was from it that all others have broken off from.

Jesus, well supposedly, found his church on a "Jew" named Peter. This same Jew kept all his Jewishness till the day he died. Your argument is futile. Peter was, is, and shall always be a Jew. His religion was Jewish. Did Peter ever call himself a Roman Catholic or even Christian? You see, if you study that story about Peter in more depth you will find that it has a dual meaning. You see, shortly after this remarkable thing where Jesus crowns him Pope, he very quickly is called SATAN. You see, when Peter tries to step out of his boundaries he puts himself in front of Jesus as the leader then is quickly called SATAN. I see the story as a remarkable prophecy of what is to come. Peter a mere man holds himself higher than God and then becomes SATAN-Just like the history of the RCC. It makes me wonder why the RCC would have chosen Peter as their so called pope though. I think James would have been a better choice. You know , since James had to straighten Peter out in one incident.

You see Lesley. where you do err, is that you believe that Jesus came to the earth to start a church institution and change a belief system. Now, he did come for a reason. I suggest that you find that reason. I'll give you a hint- Moses tells us why. I mean really, search out the reason for Jesus coming to the earth. Did he have to? Was the Law that was allready taught insufficient?

There is only ONE God and only ONE belief system taught that is the truth. That systems name is truth. That truth may have walked through the valley of the shadow of the RCC and protesters, but it fears no evil and will prevail! That truth is a two edged sword slicing the RCC with one side and the protesters on the other, leaving only the truth standing.

I come to the cathaholic forum to spread truth. Just like in the revelation, the truth stands in the middle of.......

-- a son (me@you.com), February 11, 2005.


a son,

not that i know much about judaism but i simply don't agree with all it's laws...many things are defined as evil which aren't...like with all the other religions...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.


I assume then that you have a more authoritative source for defining what is and is not evil? What/who would that source be?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 11, 2005.

> "You see, when Peter tries to step out of his boundaries he puts himself in front of Jesus as the leader then is quickly called SATAN"

A: That is absolutely absurd. Peter, in his great zeal as a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST (= Christian) inadvertently became a source of temptation for Christ. That's why Christ called him "tempter" - "satan". In spite of that impulsiveness, Simon's great love for Christ, and the special revelation god gave him about Christ, allowed him to become "Peter" - "the Rock", on which the church of Christ would be built. This is one of most straightforward, clearly stated passages in all of Scripture. It is pitiful to see the lengths to which members of manmade churches will go in their efforts to twist its plain meaning into something that will fit their manmade theologies. Something that will allow them to remain outside the Church of God and avoid the painful truth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 11, 2005.


AHHH, " a son" has come here to set us on the correct path. You need not apologize to me..you don't offend me with your remarks. It is Almighty God whom you offend..one day, you shall have to apologize to Him.

sqda..I too am quite intriqued with how you measure "good" and "evil" since you have said that you hold to no particular moral compass at all. Please elaborate..since you abhor Catholics and know nothing about Judaism,( yet dislike their "rules"), and you have also stated that you equally have disdain for any Christian religion which puts forth any demands upon it's followers in general..how do you discern what is good from what is evil in your own life??

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 11, 2005.


To 'a son'

You say "[Judaism is] a beautiful religion that has but ONE God and they have like 10 Laws to live your life by. Very simple and very sweet!"

In Judaism, God gave the Jews 613 Laws to follow, not 10. These are called the 613 mitzvot (see http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm. For non-Jews there are seven laws to follow - the 'Seven Laws of Noah'.

Judaism holds a 'simple' view of the nature of God "6. To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity", sure, but I've never heard Judaism described as 'sweet!'

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 12, 2005.


A Son; the real article; OK!
All Judaism gives you is megillah for your pride, Son. There is no Temple.

The temple now is our own heart; where God dwells with His people of the New Covenant.

If Jews still went to the Temple, and not one little fragment of wall, we would all know the Lord lives amidst them. He still lives here, we agree; but within the kingdom of heaven Christ brought us; the Catholic Church. We regret seeing you reduced to your Diaspora and the grumblings of a few poor Rebbes in New York; that's a hard fall from the temple of Solomon and Herod's Temple. Man, it's a sad pill to have to swallow, when you counted on ruling the world.

So, you shower contempt on us, our Saviour, his holy apostles, the sacrifice He's made for us all. You feel cheated, I guess.

Well, don't. There's a place for Israel in heaven. You are the chosen people and we don't hold it against you. We rejoice for you; Jews who will answer the call of Messiah as a nation! --just before the last days of the world. A ''remnant'. But still, nevertheless, Israel. Jesus holds you all dear. Of course; He is the Son of David.

Your Passover for millennia has been the foreshadowing of Jesus' Passion and Death on Calvary; outside the walls of Jerusalem. He is the true Lamb of God; our Passover victim. He loves His chosen people. You gave him to us, by God's divine plan.

You are no better Jew and son of the law than was Saul the Pharisee, who persecuted the Church. He was confronted by Jesus on the road to Damascus and converted instantly; becoming our holy apostle Paul. He was martyred in Rome later; decapitated instead of crucified, being born a Roman citizen. He is the model Christian; a man who had been circumsized and taught the entire law of Moses for a lifetime. In one minute he gave his whole life to the Son of God. Doesn't such a change strike a Jew sensational? Read about Paul, Son. Be brave; don't shrink from the thought of how YOU may be changed. No GUTS No GLORY! That's what a huge, red-headed Jew was yelling at a crap table in Las Vegas one day when I was there. He was an impressive specimen shooting dice, let me tell you. I've always liked Jews. All the early Church is made from Jewish stock, just about. The mother of the Messiah is a Jew. Mary the Holy Virgin, A Son. The Mother of God.

And that's no megillah!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 12, 2005.


things in judaism that i don't agree with:

# To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3) (CCA47) See Brit Milah: Circumcision.

[why?...why should it be wrong not to do so...?]-sdqa

Not to intermarry with gentiles (Deut. 7:3) (CCN19). See Interfaith Marriages.

[oh...very nice...very nice...do you really think god is going to tell you who to marry and who not?...didn't he create all people?...why would he forbid then such a thing?...and why would a loving god,forbid LOVE between a jew and a gentile?...])sdqa

To be fruitful and multiply (Gen. 1:28) (CCA43).

[and if i don't want to?...it's my thing...i don't want anyone to tell me how to organise my life...if i don't feel like having kids...how can someone force me then to have?...]-sdqa

That the woman suspected of adultery shall be dealt with as prescribed in the Torah (Num. 5:30) (affirmative).

[SUSPECTED????...omg...and about a man 'suspected' of adultery noone says a thing...very nice...and i wonder how it is prescribed to deal with such women...i can already imagine...]-sdqa

# That one who defames his wife's honor (by falsely accusing her of unchastity before marriage) must live with her all his lifetime (Deut. 22:19) (affirmative).

[why?...must live with her...if she rapes his children and kills his family he still must live with her...if he doesn't love her anymore...he must live with her...what a nice god...]-sdqa

That a widow whose husband died childless must not be married to anyone but her deceased husband's brother

[ever heard of love?...what if she doesn't love him?...still force her to marry him?...very nice...]-sdqa

# To marry the widow of a brother who has died childless (Deut. 25:5) (this is only in effect insofar as it requires the procedure of release below ) (CCA45).

[same comment as above]-sdqa

Not to travel on Shabbat outside the limits of one's place of residence (Ex. 16:29) (CCN7). See Shabbat.

[oh and why not?...what is wrong with that?...and what if i have to?]-sdqa

To keep the Canaanite slave forever (Lev. 25:46) (affirmative).

[oh so god allows us to have slaves?...but not to keep them forever...and he loves all people right?]-sdqa Not to wrong such a slave (Deut. 23:17) (negative).

[same comment as above]-sdqa

# That the Court shall pass sentence of death by decapitation with the sword (Ex. 21:20; Lev. 26:25) (affirmative).

# That the Court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation (Lev. 20:10) (affirmative).

# That the Court shall pass sentence of death by burning with fire (Lev. 20:14) (affirmative).

# That the Court shall pass sentence of death by stoning (Deut. 22:24) (affirmative).

[and these words come from a loving god?...do you really think that this comes from god? the one that loves us and forgives us?...come on people...be reasonable for once...is this correct?...why to kill someone? because he did something wrong...in the worst case killed someone else...but aren't you the same as him then?...there are other kinds of punishment and other kinds of things that could prevent him doeing such thing again...but why killing?...people can change...think about the thief on the cross next to jesus...do you even realise how precious a human life is...i'm sure that no single good father...not to speak of a complete good father would want his children been killed for their crimes]-sdqa

# Not to make a graven image; neither to make it oneself nor to have it made by others (Ex. 20:4) (CCN9). # Not to make any figures for ornament, even if they are not worshipped (Ex. 20:20) (CCN144). # Not to make idols even for others (Ex. 34:17; Lev. 19:4) (CCN10). # Not to use the ornament of any object of idolatrous worship (Deut. 7:25) (CCN17). # Not to make use of an idol or its accessory objects, offerings, or libations (Deut. 7:26) (CCN18). See Grape

[why?...what's the purpose of not doing so?...who do i harm if i do so?]-sdqa

Not to remove the entire beard, like the idolaters (Lev. 19:27) (CCN177).

[so we all have to look ugly and walk around with beards...what's the purpose of this?]-sdqa Not to tattoo the body like the idolaters (Lev. 19:28) (CCN163).

[and why not?...who do i harm if i do so?...just because i would look lik an idolater then?]-sdqa To slay the inhabitants of a city that has become idolatrous and burn that city (Deut. 13:16-17) (affirmative).

[oh very nice...kill people...burn their city...just because they are idolatrous...and you want me to believe that these words come from god?]-sdqa

# Not to curse a ruler, that is, the King or the head of the College in the land of Israel (Ex. 22:27) (negative).

[and why not? if he is evil?]-sdqa

To appoint a king (Deut. 17:15) (affirmative).

[over my dead body,complete against the most fundamental things i stand for]-sdqa

Not to sell a beautiful woman, (taken captive in war) (Deut. 21:14) (negative).

[and if she's ugly you can sell her?...and this comes from god also right?...very nice...]-sdqa

well if all these things really come from god,then i think he really must hate the jews...

you suppose me to take all these things serious?...please...

to lesley:

you take a 2000 year old book as your source for what's good and bad?...well i don't

my morals aren't based on someone else's...i don't want anyone else telling me what to do,what's good and what not...look everything that causes direct harm to someone else is bad...i can do whatever i want unless i hurt someone else with it...my freedom reaches to their freedom...what i do to myself,is my own thing...ok sometimes not...like killing yourself while you have a sick wife and 5 children that noone can take care of...but if it involves only me in it...it's my thing

one other thing:the torah is complete against the nature of the human mind...god gave us freedom...why would he give us then sooo many rules that tell us exactly HOW to live our life...not what is good or bad...(ok some...but i'm talking about these things i posted above and many other things i didn't)

i think this question has already been answered 2000 years ago:

53 His disciples said to him, "is circumcision useful or not?"

He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect."-jesus,the gospel of thomas

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 12, 2005.


Please take your snots with you and get out, spdq;
Giving us lists of ''things in judaism that i don't agree with'' or ANY other stupidity that nobody asked you for, makes you twice as unpopular. What makes you think anyone cares if you disagree?

They were not ''things about Judaism'', either. The Law in the Old Testament was GOD'S commands. Not a religious code or survey taken by cold-hearted citizens.

Just shows how morally sick you are. You never even think of God. At least we have this fellow, A Son; who believes in God. What could you ever believe in but your appetite? Take it to the trash dump. Plenty there for you to enjoy.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 12, 2005.


eugene,you stupid ****,have you even red what i posted? have you ever even red your OT or the torah?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 12, 2005.

You don't know BEANS. Why are you making stupid comments here every day? No one in their right mind can take you seriously because the DEVIL sends you here. You carry the devil's opinions to a Catholic forum. Why have I repeatedly spoken to you this way? To spite the devil, who brought you here.

Our Moderator has to ban you sometime. The more abuse I draw from you, the sooner he (MAAAAAY) do it. I can't imagine how he's tolerated this for so long.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 12, 2005.


Wow, I guess that fell on deaf ears. I guess it is expected when you have people who enter college without first having went to elementary and high school. A person can not enter Harvard without first learning their basics. Learning is a process that starts first from the begining learning the basics and then proceeding to more challenging things.

When Jesus walked the earth he had many converts. Jews that were converted from Judaism to _______. The preceeding "blank" can be filled in with the words "Spiritual Judaism". Jesus did not convert people to "Christianity". He did not come with a NEW religion or belief or laws. He came with a new covenant. A covenant is an agreement between two parties. His new covenant/agreement with us is that we keep the Laws in spirit by writing them on our hearts instaed of stone. He taught a spiritual meaning of the existing Laws of Moses. He himself never broke one law of Moses nor taught others to do so. That's why he said he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. God's law was practiced by many to a tee physically but they were missing the broader aspect of it which was as Moses tells us that it is to be kept in spirit more importantly. So, God in the physical, as Jesus, came and taught and died physically then lived spiritually as proof of his testament to his people. God's laws are perfect. The meaning thereof is not always understood but with the guidance of his spirit we are blessed with an abundance of love and understanding. This is the true teachings of the Messiah and the true teachings of Judaism.

An example: eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. Thats a perfect law. You will be judged as you judge equally. Jesus says to turn the other cheeck. Wow, spiritual perfection interpeting the original law! The spiritual mind reads "eye for an eye" but hears "I am man, I am not judge, therefore I will let God only be the judge and give my adversary a second chance. The spiritual mind reads the revelation and says within himself AHA, here is the mind that has wisdom, here are they that KEEP the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy. And AHA, here are they that sing the song of Moses "AND" the Lamb. The two edged sword cuts perfectly.

Judaism teaches spiritual perfection, while cathaholicism and protesterism teaches stumbling blocks to the world. The blind leading the blind. Just as Jesus said, If you knew Moses then you would know him. You can be grafted into the branch but you can not grow your own tree.

You people are full of hate and envy and let the adversary breathe down the back of your neck wispering sweet nothings into your ears. Like Eve you subcome to the adversary's lies and like Adam you eat from the hand of the whore instead of the hand of God. Your first mistake is to listen to the adverary and your second mistake is to eat from the hand that listens to the adverary. God will feed you but you must ask. Knowledge of good and evil does not profit us but truth does.

-- a son (me@you.com), February 12, 2005.


Dear A. S.,

Just for the moment; let's let pass over some of your more gross and ugly words here, and return to a theological appreciation of what you believe. The slander we can kick out of here later.

First: ''filled in with the words "Spiritual Judaism". Jesus did not convert people to "Christianity". This is empty blather.

Christ (Messiah) was on earth to give His life for sinners. His Gospel, or Good News was left to the whole world, starting with the Jews. ''Christianity'' the noun, is derived of his NAME to point out CHRIST'S KINGDOM to the whole world. The Annointed One, Messiah, Christ-- was annointed by God the Father; as KING over all Creation; not only Israel, as they had been expecting. God had been promising this annointed One to Israel; but the Jews took it to mean David's earthly power, or Jewish power. They were disappointed.

However, all Jews didn't fail Him. The Church started in Jerusalem because Jesus knew that ''salvation is from the Jews'' as God promised Abraham.

It's wonderful! His Holy Church traces back to Abraham, and we became spiritual descendents of Abraham in Jesus Christ. But NOT in Judaism. It's covered by the Messianic kingdom now; Christianity. DAVID is a CATHOLIC in heaven, A.S. Just like Peter and Paul; who started out Sons of the Law and worshipped in the Temple. JESUS is their Saviour as well as ours.

This is all in accordance with God's Will, not the Catholic Church's will. The Church SERVES Jesus Christ; and He loves her as a heavenly Bride. This fulfills Yahweh's ancient promise to Israel; --He would be like a husband over Zion, His bride, whom he purified, for she had been impure in the past.

The Father purifies her in Christ! He is Messiah and you belong to Him, A Son. If you wish to be loved by the Bridegroom, you must be in his Church someday.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 12, 2005.


Eugene,

Sorry if you feel that I have slandered you or your organization. My belief is that the truth tastes sweet but sometimes when it enters the belly it can become bitter. I'm guessing this is your case.

I wasn't suggesting that Jesus converted people to "christianity" but I was suggesting that many feel that was his calling, which is false.

Anyhow, you wrote -"Christ (Messiah) was on earth to give His life for sinners." -Here is where I dissagree, though, this is an incident that had to happen. Messiah came to earth to teach and give a new covenant. It was not specifically prophecized that a man would come to die for all sinners but, a great leader to come to Israel. This is why many Jews failed to see him as the Messiah. As you have pointed out, They were expecting an earthly king who would lead them to glory as a nation in the world. Why did some not recognize him? Well, that is simple, they did not recognize Moses either and believed with their stony hearts instead of their fleshy hearts and write the Law on them. You see, this is what I've been trying to say: It is that all important "writting those Laws on our hearts" that leads us to the kingdom. When we write these Laws on our hearts they are the same Laws. They have not changed or been deleted or added to, only the meaning thereof is taken spiritually rather than physically. This is the core belief in Messiah. This is what it means to be converted. Messiah had converts and people who believed in him before he died. Why? Because they believed in what he taught. They recognized in him the writting of the Law in our hearts and what it meant. Those people did not have any need of the RCC or protestant churches. They only needed Judaism to guide them to the real kingdom. Judaism becomes complete with Messiah.

You wrote -"The Church started in Jerusalem because Jesus knew that ''salvation is from the Jews'' as God promised Abraham." -Like I said, your words!

You wrote -"It's wonderful! His Holy Church traces back to Abraham, and we became spiritual descendents of Abraham in Jesus Christ. But NOT in Judaism. It's covered by the Messianic kingdom now; Christianity. DAVID is a CATHOLIC in heaven, A.S. Just like Peter and Paul; who started out Sons of the Law and worshipped in the Temple. JESUS is their Saviour as well as ours." -Here again I disagree. It is Judaism that traces back to Abraham. DAVID is not a catholic but a dead Jew in the ground awaiting the return of the Messiah.

Eugene, you and the RCC along with protestants are using what is refered to as replacement theology. Israel is a nation TODAY to testify to the world God's promise. God has never forgotten her and she will be the bride that you refer to. It is Israel that is the apple of God's eye and it is Israel's "Church", Judaism that is the only one that speaks the truth. While the catholics and protestants fight their futile war in Ireland the truth still prevails and will strike them both. When one hears the voice of the Messiah one understands that God is not a liar and he has given us Laws that will stand the test of time and will never be changed. As it always has been, there is nothing new under the sun. Just as the Jews of the time of Messiah placed stumbling blocks to their brothers, so today do the churches of christianity place stumbling blocks in the paths of their brothers. It is a shame what is so easy to understand gets contorted and puffed up by the imaginations of men.

BTW,I am not a Jew by heritage but by spirit. It is interesting when I asked a good Jewish friend(brother-I had to put this in here because thats what he always calls me) of mine a question: "hey, how come most Jews don't believe in the Messiah like the christian churches?" His answer: " we as Jews believe in one God and don't accept idol worship." His answer struck a chord in me I'll never forget! We continued the conversation a bit more and I asked him what are his religious beliefs. He then told me, There are two things I don't like talking about and that is religion and politics. He then went on to tell me how he is not orthodox, does eat pork, and does not keep the sabbath litterally. He then said, " ya know, I think Jesus was a great teacher". "But really", he said, "I think the most important thing in life is to just keep the golden rule, you know, just treat people they way you would want to be treated." I have since moved a thousand miles away from that good Jewish friend of mine but, you know, I think I'll see him again sometime. And you know what? I hope you guys can meet him as well!

-- a son (me@you.com), February 12, 2005.


well a son...the thing you are telling about jesus could be correct if he didn't say so many many times that he is the son of god,that only those who believe in him and accept him as the son of god will be saved etc...you can't deny those verses...you can tell that they are false...but what is then your actual source how jesus really was?

also you said that jesus didn't came to annul the jewish laws but to make them more complete...

jesus said eating pork was good 'it's not important what comes in the mouth but what goes out of it'

and also about circumsation(or something like that)...that verse i posted in my previous post

jesus really was annuling some laws...

further about the 'good morals' and the truth in judaism...have you red my last post a son?...i'm still waiting for your comment about it...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 12, 2005.


A Son:
Easy to see you are struggling for air when you argue, ''It is Judaism that traces back to Abraham. DAVID is not a Catholic but a dead Jew in the ground awaiting the return of the Messiah.'' ---I thought you had a little sense!

Judaism is OVER. The Law of Moses is no longer; it could not save us. It was only a stop gap until Christ came to offer himself as the True Paschal Lamb.

David isn't DEAD; his soul is in glory with Jesus; who promises: ''He who lives and believes in me, though he were dead yet shall he live; and he who lives and believes in me shall never die.''

You may think David didn't believe in Christ the way we do. But Christ brought David into the Father's glory from the bosom of Abraham, immediately after his death on the cross. Jesus lives Body and Spirit, alive, at the right hand of the Father NOW. He rose again, after being crucified. And there is no death for those who are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Learn what the meaning of Passover is, A.S. BASICS!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 12, 2005.


Sdqa, I'm afraid that YOU are the one who needs to learn (alot more than a little) history my friend. If you think that only the Catholic Church tortured people for their religous beliefs, you got a lot to learn. I suggest you check this web site out. You know, if you study it well, I believe ALL your questions will be answered. http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ247.HTM

If the Catholic Church told me to jump off a bridge I would defenitly NOT. If the Pope told me to like the color green above all other colors I would not (because blue is defenitly the best)! But the Church would never do these things because it doesn't work like that friend. You have a lot to learn. The RCC has been following a DIVINE tradition since the time of the Apostles of Christ. It is portected by God just as hHis Word and Church is. There may have been some bad priests or laymen just like there are some corrupt police officers but that doesn't mean ALL the Church is bad or ALL the police system is bad. God ALWAYS protects his Teachings from His Church.

I pray for you because your are just so ignorant and arogant as you continue to come in here and attack, attack, attack! Sites like these: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM http://www.catholic.com/default.asp

would answer all of your questions if you HUMBLY seek them and study them. You don't even have to agree with them but you still should at least understand the Catholic Church and respect it, or at least it's TRUE FOLLOWERS. But you only seem to like to start trouble. Shame on you. I pray dearly for you because you are an individual who is created in God's image and you reject heartlessly so much of His TRUTH!

God give you peace:)

-- Jason (enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), February 13, 2005.


Sdqa and Eugene,

I'll try and answer you both at the same time here.

I have a bad time sometimes trying to get the right words accross, sorry. I am not saying that it is the Law that saves us. I'm simply stating that the Law still stands and every jot and tittle of it is still in effect. It is by the spiritual mind that we know this. The spiritual mind recognizes this fact and understands how this can be. It is by the grace of God through a repentant soul that saves. That's what Jesus has taught us. It is not that we believe he dided on the cross that saves us, even the adversary believes that he died on the cross. Jesus taught that we must in our hearts be repentant and offer sacrifice through his death as the pascal lamb which is our sacrifice to God. It is our belief that what we do in our spiritual heart that is more important than what we do physically. A physical sacrifice is an outward thing that could be great in and of it's self but if it is not done with the heart it is of no profit to us. The Law is still there and stands but it is how we accept that law in our spiritual being that Jesus taught us. For example: I may never physically murder another human being and therefore never break the commandement physically. But, now knowing the Law in my heart I know that I have broken that commandemt many times and am found guilty. I am therefore in need of repentance of that act and a physical sacrfice within the temple services does not cover that sin. So, a greater spiritual sacrifice is then needed, which is the sacrfice of the Messiah.

Yes, Jesus is the son of God and we must believe this fact. Why should we believe this? Doesn't the adversary believe he is the son of God also? Ofcourse he does. So, this is a spiritual discernment that we must accept. The spiritual mind understands the importance of Jesus being the son of God and why this is a factor. It's not a physical belief but a spiritual belief and when you find the answer you will be greatly blessed.

Concerning the pork and circumcission: These Laws still stand, but they more importantly stand in the spirit. It is a scientific fact that eating pork is unhealthy and being circummsized is healthier to the human body. Now do these things save you? Well, they may save the body, but not the soul. It is more important to obey the spiritual side of these Laws. Eating things which are unhealthy to the spirit are a bad thing and by circummsizing ones useless flesh(the body) from the spirit is a good thing. Do you get that? Now go over all those 613 Laws and read them with a spiritual mind and see if they don't infact still stand. If you have trouble understanding then just ask the answers will be given to you. God is not a liar, he said to ask and you shall receive.

SDQA,

To answer your previous post: It is by spiritual disscernment that we can answer those questions. If you do not know the answers then I suggest Praying to the Father and asking for truth. Trust me, he never fails. If you really seek the truth it will be given to you and all of those questions will be answered. I could give you some examples but, I think it is best for a person to seek these out for themselves. I don't know everything, I am still learning and I'm sure I will to the day I die. Truly I believe that the two greatest commandments that Jesus has given us are the most important. It is just a great gift to be able to understand some of the lesser commandments and disscern them spritualy. To me God's word is like a spiral that gets larger as it moves out from the center. It encompasses and expounds on every minute detail.

Eugene,

I won't get into a lengthy disscussion about death with you but I will give a quick summary. If you read Daniel, you will find that he is told that he will go to his lot until that great day. We are all to die a physical death but it is the second death(the spiritual) that we are saved from. Jesus himself proved this to us. He died physically and laid in his lot just like Daniel and the rest of us will. He then was by the spirit brought back to life. You see the Father has allowed our greatest brother to go before us as proof to us that he will do as said. And, just like our brother the Messiah we too who believe become sons of God and are joint heirs to the throne. This story is told many times throughout the scriptures. We see it in Abraham, Joeseph, and Moses etc. Salvation is from God and the message is brought to us by a brother. Sometimes are brother may come from a far and distant place but he is still our brother and cares that you get the message. I will tell you sir, Brother, salvation is from God, he will save us.

-- a son and brother (me @you.com), February 13, 2005.


Neither am I about to go to great lengths on the subject of death, A.S.

You quoted something that's applicable and dove-tails very well with the gospel of John, 11 :23 to :45 --Jesus said, I am the Ressurection and the Life.

You refer to a passage in Daniel. ''He knows that he will go to his lot until that great day.''

A Son; ''that great day'' is right after Christ's Passion and Death on the cross; followed by His glorious Resurrection. THAT is when the dead in Christ were to be delivered from the half- life of the underworld, and taken up with Him, to heaven. David, Solomon, the prophets, all-- were given everlasting life just as that ''great day'' came to this world. When our Paschal Lamb was sacrificed on Calvary all souls in captivity went with Him to heaven. In the last day, after we rise in the flesh; all of Christ's faithful shall be re-united as bodies and souls-- glorified; --Chapter 4 of Thessalonians :13 to :18 reveals this event briefly. Take a peek at it. And remember; David is NOT a ''dead man.''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 13, 2005.


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