Is it fair?

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My boyfriend has asked me to attend the Lutheran church with him if we should get married. I have been a devout Catholic growing up and for the first time feel very confused. His religion has some very good points because they are based on the Bible. It is hard for me to refute his beliefs (such as faith alone) and defend mine (such as praying to Mary). We both feel that children need one religion in order to bond to a church. He will not convert to being a Catholic because of "false doctrines" - would I be making a mistake to join his church but still call myself a Catholic out of love?

-- AB (lifey888@hotmail.com), February 23, 2005

Answers

For Faith Alone, see James 2:24.

For the rest, you and your Boyfirend must work this out.

-- ZAROVE (ZARPOFF3@JUNO.COM), February 23, 2005.


No, AB--

You aren't free to join ''his'' church.

First of all, he has no church. YOU have Christ's Church, not ''my'' Church or ''yours''.

He's only your boyfriend, not a saint. Much less an authority on your Catholic faith. If you choose to please a boyfriend now, God will NOT believe you loved Him faithfully at the Last Judgment.

You must either plan on his becoming a member of the Catholic Church, and on raising your children in the Church. Or-- refuse to marry a selfish, unfaithful man. Haven't you been informed? There are other fish in the ocean, AB. Get a Catholic. Be true to God and to the children He'll give you someday. Your ''boyfriend'' is NO husband for you. I'm sorry, that's the facts.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 23, 2005.


but he's right...their doctrines are false...faith means also good deeds in christianity 'who loves me keeps my commands'...but jesus never spoke about any other teachings beside his,he never told the RCC to teach things he didn't taught

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), February 23, 2005.

What do you know? You believe in everything unholy. Divorce, abortion, unhealthy sexual practices, denying God, denying sin. I hope AB has enough brains to ignore YOU. --When we yell, S I C K Y ! you stand up.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 23, 2005.

He says that I am following the church, not God's word (the Bible). I think there is a Bible verse that supports the church as authority - anyone know? Also, the catholic church was going off track a bit during the Martin Luthers time (indulgences) - so how do I defend them now? Also, what about declarations like Mary's assumption in the 1950s? These are the things that make him think of false doctrines. And it is easy to be persuaded - I really appreciate your help here!

-- AB (lifey888@hotmail.com), February 23, 2005.


Listen to zarove...read James 2:14-26.

"His religion has some very good points because they are based on the Bible."

Any good points that Lutheranism has have been taken from Catholic teaching.

And you would definitely be making a mistake to join his "church" out of love for him. Your love of God must supercede that love. Being a devout Catholic why would you consider allowing your children to be raised Lutheran?

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 23, 2005.


AB-

"He says that I am following the church, not God's word (the Bible). I think there is a Bible verse that supports the church as authority - anyone know?"

Matthew 16:19 (talking to Peter) "I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven: what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven."

Matthew 18:18 "And so I tell all of you: what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven."

John 20:23 (talking to Apostles) "If you forgive people's sins they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

All of these quotes are spoken directly to the Apostles, the first Bishops who carried on the Catholic Church after Jesus ascended into Heaven.

"Also, the catholic church was going off track a bit during the Martin Luthers time (indulgences) - so how do I defend them now?"

The Church is full of sinners, but the Church itself, never sins.

"Also, what about declarations like Mary's assumption in the 1950s?"

I thought that was in the 19th century, but I may be mistaken. Either way, we believe that God's revelation is not complete. It did not end around 100 when the last book of the Bible was written. God continually reveals truths to the Catholic Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

"These are the things that make him think of false doctrines. And it is easy to be persuaded - I really appreciate your help here!"

Ask your boyfriend if he believes that the Bible contains the whole of Jesus' teachings. If he believes it does, ask him why the first disciples would only write down such a limited amount of all that Jesus said, if the bible was meant to be the sole source of teaching. The New Testament can be read in a few hours. Jesus taught for three years. It is clear he said more than just what was recorded. This is where the oral tradition of the Catholic Church comes into play. Jesus's teachings have been taught orally since the Holy Spirit desecnded upon the Apostles, which was a full 15 years before any of the New Testament was written.

I hope this is helpful,

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 23, 2005.


Dear AB:
-- ''He says that I am following the church, not God's word (the Bible). I think there is a Bible verse that supports the church as authority - anyone know? Also, the catholic church was going off track a bit during the Martin Luthers time (indulgences) - so how do I defend them now? Also, what about declarations like Mary's assumption in the 1950s? These are the things that make him think of false doctrines.''

You have never received false doctrines in the Catholic Church. Explain to this friend that even if he is Lutheran, his blessed ancestors all were Catholics. Lutherans revolted against the only Church ever founded by Christ.

If your ancestors were all Catholics, then he thinks they all believed in false doctrines, doesn't he? Well, so did HIS ancestors! And his Bible was their Bible, before there ever was a Lutheran church.

If their Holy Bible came through the Church which taught them false doctrine (as he thinks) then the Bible is also false! --The sole authority for his Bible (Catholic Church) was the authority that taught your good ancestors and HIS. He can't have it both ways. Don't even entertain him with a debate. Tell him you're a believer. He can take that or leave it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 23, 2005.


Matthew 16:19 (talking to Peter) "I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven: what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven."

[what has this to do with the RCC?]-sdqa

Matthew 18:18 "And so I tell all of you: what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven."

[same comment as above]-sdqa

John 20:23 (talking to Apostles) "If you forgive people's sins they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

[same comment as above]-sdqa

All of these quotes are spoken directly to the Apostles, the first Bishops who carried on the Catholic Church after Jesus ascended into Heaven.

[the early church isn't the same thing as the insitution that was established later]-sdqa

"Also, the catholic church was going off track a bit during the Martin Luthers time (indulgences) - so how do I defend them now?"

The Church is full of sinners, but the Church itself, never sins.

[the church is her ppl,off course,a building or an institution cannot sin,but if this church is made of evil ppl the church is evil also]-sdqa

"Also, what about declarations like Mary's assumption in the 1950s?"

I thought that was in the 19th century, but I may be mistaken. Either way, we believe that God's revelation is not complete. It did not end around 100 when the last book of the Bible was written. God continually reveals truths to the Catholic Church

[when did god then reveal the """truth""" about mary to the RCC?]-sdqa

"He says that I am following the church, not God's word (the Bible). I think there is a Bible verse that supports the church as authority - anyone know?"

[it supports the authority of the early church,not the church as it is today,i have a nice verse about this also the catholics use a lot to prove that their chucrh can teach non-biblical doctrines

"... she is the pillar and the foundation of the truth..."

yes things were taught oral back in the day and the church was the pillar and the foundation of the truth because there were no scriptures,but this 'truth' was written down and there was no need for oral tradition any longer,what did jesus or his apostels say to his church that wasen't written down? ]-sdqa

"If their Holy Bible came through the Church which taught them false doctrine (as he thinks) then the Bible is also false!"

[probably...even if it wasen't so,i can't take the bible as a truth before it is proven that the bible speaks the truth,first seeing,then believing]-sdqa

"What do you know? You believe in everything unholy. Divorce, abortion, unhealthy sexual practices, denying God, denying sin. I hope AB has enough brains to ignore YOU. --When we yell, S I C K Y ! you stand up."

[i don't 'believe' in divorce...i never said such a thing

the morning after pill is a good thing,abortion if it's done at the right time when the baby isn't developed yet also,you can never harm a zygote or an embryo,but the mother you can...

no,not unhealthy sexual practices,...unless you mean fornication,but what's so unhealhty about it? we can always use condoms right...

once again i repeat,those who choose security above liberty don't deserve neither

i don't deny god...

i do deny the concept that you need a saviour to take away all your sins,my opinion is that 'sins' in general don't make us necesarily evil if we are good people,human beings were never supposed to be perfect,and believing in things that happened 2000 years ago to take away your sins make complete no sense to me]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), February 23, 2005.


AB, it is not right to comprimize your beliefs for ANYONE! That would go for any denomination.

Sqda, Man cannot be judge on good intentions alone

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), February 23, 2005.



> "His religion has some very good points because they are based on the Bible."

A: His religion is NOT "based on the Bible". It is based on the private biblical interpretations of its founder, just like every one of the thousands of conflicting denominations of Protestantism. A religion that is truly "based on the Bible" is in accord with the TRUE meaning of the text, which necessarily results in unity of belief, not denominationalism, and that meaning can be known only through the authoritative interpretation of the Church to which the Bible was given - the Holy Catholic Church.

>"It is hard for me to refute his beliefs (such as faith alone) and defend mine (such as praying to Mary)."

A: Then you need to study your faith, so you know the facts. Such manmade beliefs as "faith alone" are really very easy to refute when you know the truth. "Faith alone" plainly contradicts not only the 2,000 year old teaching of the Christian faith, but also the Bible. Of course, it doesn't contradict his interpretation of the Bible; but that simply demonstrates the inaccuracy of his interpretation.

> "We both feel that children need one religion in order to bond to a church."

A: Children, like everyone else, need the truth. The last thing they need is to be subjected to a false church teaching false doctrines.

>"He will not convert to being a Catholic because of "false doctrines"

A: Actually he will not convert because of HIS false doctrines, which he has accepted from the leaders of his manmade church, inspite of the fact that they conflict with the beliefs of the original Christian Church.

>"would I be making a mistake to join his church but still call myself a Catholic out of love?"

A: You would be making the same mistake he has already made - abandoning the fullness of truth in the Church God Himself has provided for you, in exchange for a manmade tradition teaching a mixture of truth (which they received from the Catholic Church) and untruth (non-Christian beliefs imposed upon them by their human founders). You have everything available to you that God wants you to have. He doesn't. Don't settle for less.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 23, 2005.


Sdqa, does not ANY of the things that Paul M, Tim K., and Eugene say answer your complaints? What is your deal? Just another Catholic basher who has nothing better to do I supose. Do you ever read about Catholicism by any books or web sites? Maybe if you did you would not be such a constant basher and at least respect the faith. Your complaints are CONSTANTLY answered all the time in here, so WHY are you being so BLIND!

God give you peace

-- Jason (enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), February 23, 2005.


AB

Tim K. (and I think it was Steve,) on another thread mentioned something that rang a bell with me.

"THe Bible is not a manual." It does not contain every word or teaching provided by Christ. It was compiled by the Catholic Church from portions of oral teaching and tradition from various communities. It is not of in itself the entire story. There is more. There is tradition,--- things not written down but passed on.

James taught that faith without works was dead. People seem to forget this very important teaching. This to me is profound. Extremelly important. I think it would best not to leave your faith. You can marry him but remain Catholic. If he loves you this will not be a problem.

Catholicism is "your" religion. I left it once, I thought I was right, returned and it was the best thing I've done. Be very careful about your decision. You will miss it if you do. You won't actually recognise it until you leave. (This is coming from a voice of experience.)

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), February 23, 2005.


Eugene,

"If you choose to please a boyfriend now, God will NOT believe you loved Him faithfully at the Last Judgment."

I find comments such as these judgmental, rash, and harsh. I suggest you tone them down before somebody complains to the mods about you.

AB,

You better see you parish priest, you need to be guided away from the sour wine you have been drinking. Not only are the Catholic Faith and Teachings scriptural, but it is from this same Tradition that the Bible came.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.


Dear Father:
I shall tone them down. I hope I've done no irreparable damage.

As you may have sensed by now, my feelings for our forum aren't the same as my evening prayers. I will always believe in tough love. Most of all if speaking to Catholics, who should not need proselytizing. They're within the fold. The tragedy would be for a FAITHFUL SOUL to drop out of the Church because nobody lifted a finger to stop her.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 24, 2005.



But your efforts could backfire and actually drive her away. Your post could easily be interpreted that God has no forgiveness or that she would never repent for 'defecting'.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.

Father, I truly hope I never drive anybody away from the Church. If AB had seemed a girl of shaky faith, I should have more caution, Yes.

I told you she seemed a FAITHFUL Catholic, as she indicated, ''--I have been a devout Catholic growing up and for the first time feel very confused.'' Her ''confusion'' comes from a boyfriend, not from her faith. Pardon me for saying, but I doubt if one like myself can ever drive AB away.

This is a sore point I've been discussing with my own pastor, Fr. Paul. I just don't like how our Catholic priests, so many of them,

- -are all qualms today about driving the faithful away from the Church. I say to him, ''You HAVE the full authority; speak with more urgency.'' He smiles and tells me;-- ''Oh, no. Gino-- we can't do that at all!''

The Church taught me that when a priest speaks the Holy Spirit speaks to us through him; as regards faith and morals. This was not a vague opinion of my own. I learned it in the Church. But times have sure changed.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 24, 2005.


His church believes that the Catholic church was the first church, but it went off track. They say that the Protestant church is trying to correct the bad teachings and bring it back "on track". My heart agrees with all of you on the Catholic church being the right church, but I just can't explain it with my head.

-- AB (lifey888@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.

AB, your church was founded on Peter by Christ Himself. It was Christ who told His church, His bishops whom He had appointed, that He would send them the Holy Spirit to protect them for all time.

If the catholic church HAS failed, then your boyfriends belief implies two things:

1) That Christ's endeavor to start a church failed, and that man needed to correct a mistake by Christ.

2) Christ lied when He told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would go with them forever.

Since niether of these options can ever be the case, then it must be that IF the catholic church was the original and authentic christian church (which it was) THEN it MUST still be that same original and authentic church.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), February 24, 2005.


Can you point me to where it says that in the Bible? I would like to point that out to him! He feels that all the churches are God's church since Christianity is God's church - not necessarily the catholic church. He doesn't see where Jesus gave succession since he didn't tell Peter to choose the next person in line. I don't know where to find the support for these items and would greatly appreciate any insight!

-- AB (lifey888@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.

Dear AB:
One passage (below) would be very useful. Since he's a practiced '''scholar'' of Bible texts, you might never come close to upstaging him. Every verse you quoted would invite his five more. Or, he would demand EVERY tiny detail of your Catholic faith settled completely out of Bible passages. That would make you even MORE confused. Don't fall into those traps. Be smart.

One passage then: --''This is the disciple who bears witness concerning these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his witness is true. There are, however, many other things that Jesus did; but if every one of these should be ****WRITTEN****

''Not even the world itself, I think, could hold the books that would have to be written.'' (Gospel of John, 21 :24-25.)

Think; --If John says --the world could not hold every ''book'' that would have to be written -- He really means all the different BIBLES that would be needed to explain everything that Jesus gave to his apostles! Even our ONE Bible is loaded with a thousand details. John says no matter how much we learn in our Bible; it can't be complete. --Only the Church of the holy apostles knows the WHOLE truth, including the meaning of all scripture.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 24, 2005.


AB-

Eugene makes a great point. John specifically says that all that Jesus taught is not written.

"Can you point me to where it says that in the Bible? I would like to point that out to him! He feels that all the churches are God's church since Christianity is God's church - not necessarily the catholic church. He doesn't see where Jesus gave succession since he didn't tell Peter to choose the next person in line. I don't know where to find the support for these items and would greatly appreciate any insight!"

In terms of succession, the appointment of a successor to Judas shows that even in the earliest days of Christianity, it was believed that there had to be successors to recently vacated positions. Why else would they appoint Matthias to take Judas' place? Did they just like the number 12? Of course not. Here is the relevant passage:

"During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language 'Akeldama,' that is, Field of Blood. For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.' Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection." So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. Then they prayed, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place." Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles." Acts 1:15-26

Did Jesus tell them to appoint a successor? No.

So did the Catholic Church stray from Jesus' teaching just a few days after He ascended into Heaven? Of course, not.

If your boyfriend believes it is wrong for Peter to appoint a successor then he must believe that it was wrong for the 11 remaining apostles to choose a replacement for Judas. You can't have it both ways.

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 24, 2005.


I hope I can help a bit. I think you would benifit TONS if you read the boooks:

Where is that in the Bible? by Patrick Madrid

Rome Sweet Home. by Scott Hahn

Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating (be sure to read this!)

and tell your boyfriend to read the: JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church (you can find it online).

My own personal advice is, Do NOT turn your back on you Faith until you KNOW what it is. Study Catholicism first before you deny the Church for your boyfriend.

I also recommend going to Catholic Answers website: www.catholic.com Listen to the radio archives and read the tracts.

I hope I helped.

P.S. if you convert to Lutheranism or just go to his church and recieve their communion the Catholic Church will recognize that as officially denying the Catholic Church and the Eucharist. I say you really have to think about this, in all honesty you can't have it both ways.

*I do want to point out that if you stay Catholic (go to Masses every Sunday except in cases of emergency) you can still also attend the Lutheran services but not partake of their Communion.

-- M. Garcia (MParedon1@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.


Eugene,

"Father, I truly hope I never drive anybody away from the Church. If AB had seemed a girl of shaky faith, I should have more caution, Yes. I told you she seemed a FAITHFUL Catholic, as she indicated, ''--I have been a devout Catholic growing up and for the first time feel very confused.'' Her ''confusion'' comes from a boyfriend, not from her faith. Pardon me for saying, but I doubt if one like myself can ever drive AB away."

Read yourself here. If she is having a struggle between her love for her boyfriend and her Catholic Faith such that she would consider "joining his church" then she has a crisis of Faith.

This is a sore point I've been discussing with my own pastor, Fr. Paul. I just don't like how our Catholic priests, so many of them, - -are all qualms today about driving the faithful away from the Church. I say to him, ''You HAVE the full authority; speak with more urgency.'' He smiles and tells me;-- ''Oh, no. Gino-- we can't do that at all!''

Which Saint was it who said "You will attract more flies with honey than with vinegar"? Besides, we do not have full authority, the fulness of the Priesthood is within the Office of Bishop.

"The Church taught me that when a priest speaks the Holy Spirit speaks to us through him; as regards faith and morals. This was not a vague opinion of my own. I learned it in the Church."

The Church did not teach you that as you interpret it. If we speak what the Church speaks, then Yes the Holy Spirit speaks through us. The particular refernece you make is actually concerned with the Homily where the Holy Spirit speaks to the hearts of those hearing God's Word.

AB,

"Can you point me to where it says that in the Bible? I would like to point that out to him!"

For those with the True Faith, no explanation or proof is necessary; for those who are not open to believe, no explanation or proof will suffice.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.


In the Homily where the Holy Spirit speaks to the hearts of those open to hear God's Word.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.

I understand you very well, Father. The Church can seem too formidable to souls when nothing but remonstrance and hardly any joy is the steady diet. However, with no disrespect intended, there is a time to be stern and a time to be tender. A holy priest gives us comfort either way. In this very post, I would never presume to lecture you, but not because you're MILD.

The Catholic laity might not be so prone to stampede as you think, over vinegar today and a spoonful of sugar with their medicine tomorrow. Maybe you ought to give us a bit more credit for our faith. Reading the life of Saint Jean-Marie Baptiste Vianney I was amused to learn he admonished dancing in his parish. Man, I thought; somewhat Draconian! Of course we see how this paternalist attitude could be very counter-productive here and now. Nevertheless, it's accepted truth that no Cure was so loved and precious to his flock as the Cure of Ars. He drove no one away. Indeed he attracted every penitent in the Continent to his church because he was HOLY.

Naturally, I have no vocation to admonish any soul. I speak out of place. But I know VOLUMES about the love of Catholics for their priests. Maybe more than anybody in our forum. And I think a no-nonsense, holy priest is a priceless treasure for his people. Much greater in spirit than a priest who serves innocuously. That's just ME. But I'm a Catholic; I want the Church to offer God nothing but the best. God bless you, Father Paul.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 24, 2005.


Eugene,

This is me - I have stood before my parish and told them "I am not here to please anybody but God. If I feel there are issues that need to be addressed and words that need to be spoken, then I will address those issues and speak those words."

That was in response to people being upset over an admonishment I gave; I was even accused of ruining people's Christmas. Letters were written and I did get a call from my Ordinary.

Therefore, I do not step over the vinegar.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.


Now it can be told:

I wanted to believe exactly this about you. That you haven't answered the call of Our Lord like a timid nun; but to call souls to Christ.

I rejoice in this good news. The Son of God isn't about to vomit you out of his mouth, so long as you maintain that kind of fire. God grant you His love and protection, with His grace in a long life. Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 24, 2005.


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