Completely Devastated

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

I have recently been informed that my father is seeking an annulment from my mother whom he married in 1958 and was divorced from in 1974. My sister and I are grown products from this lutheran sacramental wedding. Both my parents were baptized ( mother lutheran, father Catholic) I am giving as much information here so that I can gain specific direction. After that divorce my father married civilly twice, and divorced thos two subsequent wives. My mother remarried civilly and is still married to that man. My father is now interested in marrying a never before married catholic. I understand her desires to have a catholic marriage, and I understand my father wants to make her as he loves her dearly. They go to mass daily. I am devasted and completely hurt by his desire. Although it would not legally in a civil court make me illegitamte, the church, by what I have read IMPLIES otherwise. Please read below:

With an annulment decree Catholic Church tribunals maintain that marriages, even those of several decades duration and with grown children, were never sacramentally valid. These officials rule that 'in the eyes of God the [sacramental] marriage never truly existed.' Via an annulment mandate, the children would be told that the Catholic Church hierarchy has decided that God's sacrament and grace was not in their parents marriage ceremony. This means that their parents' marriage was never a sanctified union, i.e. God's sacramental grace was not present in the marriage. The hierarchy's mandate indicates that children of this kind of marriage were not in a spiritually graced family. This is what is actually written, which seems to indicate pretty clearly that the church would make the kids invalid. By my father pursuing this he is basically saying if he could do it all over again, he would not have married my mother and that our very existence is a regret to you? That is what he is saying by pursuing this annulment. The Catholic Church is not only giving him permission but also, in fact, encouraging him to view him first marriage as invalid and not blessed by God via an annulment. Those implications are clear to me.

Furthermore The Pope himself has recently summoned a committee to review the annulment process having written extensively that far too many annulments are 'decreed' in the United States. Two of his recommendations to the Tribunals were: • Acknowledge the very negative effect which the annulment process foists on children • Distinguish between short-term marriages with no children, and those of several years+ duration Those whom preside over these Tribunals, usually male celibates, repeatedly state that "annulment has no effect on the children". This statement underscores a denial and ignorance intrinsic to the entire annulment procedure. In fact, when the tribunal decrees that the children were not the result of a valid and legitimate sacramental marriage there are many reports of devastating reactions in the children.

I have told my father how I feel, and told him he can't have it both ways and must make a decision. If he goes forward with this, I will be considered BY THE CHURCH basically a bastard ( sorry no nice way to say it) based on what is written no matter how nicely it is written and tapped danced around, and all the memories that we had as kids while my parents will essentially be erased in the church's eyes too. I again understand that is not the case civily. He is looking to have it both ways. While I completely understand his desire to be a good Catholic, and his love for and desire to marry his devout GF, it cannot come without consequences. For him to say it is just a formality of Church law to absolve parties is an insult. Especially when the words used by the church in his petition contain " profound irresponsibility and consistent infidelity" is slamming the good name of my mother in order for him be succesful. I am so mad and hurt, but want him to be happy at the same time. I am really thinking of not calling him Dad anymore. Not aknowleding him on Father's day,,,,, and perhaps to truly make the point known of how painful this is,,,,, is to change my last name to that of my stepfathers !!!!!!!!!! He just doen'st seem to get the seriousness of these actions. He wants his cake ane eat it to. At 69 years old he doesn't need to be doing this! Questions: Is it true that I can advise my mother to appeal any decision to the ROTA? If so, when can this appeal take place,,, anytime, or only after the first decision by the local Tribunal? What can she expect to pay ( donate ) to the ROTA? Where can I get all the information needed to try and block this? Better yet, some advice on dealing with these feelings of betrayal. He knows it was a valid marriage for many years that just ended badly. His devout GF knows this in her heart also! Please help



-- gjgreil@hotmail.com (gjgreil@hotmail.com), February 25, 2005

Answers

I agree that the current abuses by tribunals in North America brutalize both children and former spouses.

If you or your mother is interested, you can oppose any abuse in your particular case most effectively by bringing the truth to light. Chances are, you just cannot rely on the tribunal to seek the truth. They have a pro-nullity agenda that can be motivated by trying to be kind (i.e., the pastoral solution done at the expense God's will). But the pro-nullity inclination can (and often is) induced by greed to please affluent members of the laity, or to ensure that the size of the congregation is not lowered by faithful adherence to Catholic Doctrine based on Christ's teaching on marriage in the Gospel.

In order to ensure that the truth is sought out, and that canon law is not manipulated by the tribunal to produce an illegitimate decree of nullity, your mother (or perhaps you) can hire a competent canon lawyer to represent your interest in the truth. The good canon lawyer will document any and all abuses so that they can be considered at the Rota if necessary. Usually any tribunal, when faced with real scrutiny and potential judicial review, will minimize false pretenses and judicial abuse. They may even drop the case and refuse the petition.

The problem is that in North America, almost all canon lawyers are conflicted in that they have a duty of loyalty to an American bishop (who may be the real cause of the problem in that they appoint the judges to these tribunals and such bishops often have a corrupt motive for appointing untruthful and unjust tribunal judges) or other canon lawyers are often just totally incompetent amateurs.

What you need is competent representation. Its less expensive than you think. If interested, feel free to contact me at my email and I can provide the appropriate referral information.

I'll pray for your parents. And God bless you for wanting to do the right thing.

-- Pat Delaney (patrickrdelaney@yahoo.com), February 25, 2005.


>I will be considered BY THE CHURCH basically a bastard ( sorry no nice way to say it) based on what is written no matter how nicely it is written and tapped danced around, and all the memories that we had as kids while my parents will essentially be erased in the church's eyes too. "

A: That is incorrect. The following two excepts from Canon Law explain why:

Canon 1061 §3 - An invalid marriage is said to be putative if it has been celebrated in good faith by at least one party. It ceases to be such when both parties become certain of its nullity.

Canon 1137 - Children who are conceived or born of a valid or of a putative marriage are legitimate.

The question of legitimacy is settled at the time of conception. A child conceived legitimately cannot "become" illegitimate at a later time.

As for your memories being "erased in the Church's eyes", I don't have the slightest idea what that means. Your memories exist in your own mind, and nothing done by any outside party can erase them.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 25, 2005.


Side question:

Paul, what about a child conceived prior to its parents' getting married (but born months after the wedding)?

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), February 25, 2005.


Whoops, nevermind.

I see the answer in "Children who are conceived or born of a valid or of a putative marriage are legitimate."

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), February 25, 2005.


"Canon 1137 - Children who are conceived or born of a valid or of a putative marriage are legitimate"

Paul, your input is appreciated, but Cannon 1137 is in clear conflict then with a final annulment then which claims to the contrary. An annulment states that at the time of the wedding ceremony God's sacrament and grace was notpresent, so therefore as a result the children of such a union by sheer clear definition become illegitimate. See the conflict????? If the Children are conveived ie- cannon1137 ( which we were in my case) then no anulment can be approved. It is a troubling hypocracy!!!!!!!

Pat- Thank you for your support and I will contact you directly to be put in touch with a non biased Experienced Cannon Laywer along with the steps to appeal to ROTA!

-- Glenn G (gjgreil@hotmail.com), February 25, 2005.



Paul,

With respect to me stating "all the memories that we had as kids while my parents will essentially be erased in the church's eyes too" read it again,,,, I did not say that I would forget those IMPORTANT memories,,,, but THE CHURCH by basically saying that my parents marriage NEVER HAPPENED,,,,, will be also by definition be saying those memories never happened either. You see, how can anything be deemed valid in the churches eyes after an even that was claimed to have never happened...... hmmmm most curious huh? What a bunch of pure hypocracy. It is a matter of what in in my Father's heart. Whether he wants to follow a flawed ( at best ) annulment for his own convenience to satisfy his girlfriends desires ( and by doing so agreeing with what the annulment represents) or admitting that I was and am a gift from GOD who was created out of a valid sanctified marriage. Or does he ,,,,, HE, HE consider me a bastard?????? He can't have both considering me a valid santified son, along with having his annulment........... by defintion it fails the test.

-- Glenn G (gjgreil@hotmail.com), February 25, 2005.


I don't know who Delaney is,,,, all I wanted was some advice. I also see that this board is not secure with the likes of the antisemetic garbage posted. I have reported that to the moderator, hopefully it will be removed from my topic. Why should I stay clear if this person is will to help me with something that I agree with. Are you saying that I am wrong for wanting to stop my father's pursuit of this annulment? I have been sincere, and want unbiased opinion and help. Thanks

-- Glenn G (gjgreil@hotmail.com), February 25, 2005.

Thanks for your answer on my thread. I agree that this is not the way to treat children - that is why I wouldn't go for an annulment. Mine said that they wanted nothing more to do with me and wanted to stop seeing me if I insisted on this. I can't traumatise a 14, 12 and 10 year old like that just to appease my Catholic fiancee. Their mother and I did enough of that when we decided to divorce.

IMHO any Catholic who insists on a partner putting young children of a former marriage through this just to satisfy their desire to marry in church is not a Christian as I understand it. When any Catholic starts a relationship with a divorced person with children, they know the score. If a church marriage means so much to these people why don't they find someone single.

-- James (anon@anon.com), February 25, 2005.


James, a person who is not validly married IS single! That's just the point!

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 25, 2005.

Glenn,

Canon 1137 is not in conflict with the annulment process, since the annulment process addresses only the question of validity, while the legitimacy of children depends only on the presence of a putative marriage, not a valid one. In other words, if a putative marriage existed, the children are legitimate - period. Any subsequent findings regarding validity or invalidity of the union do not alter that fact.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 25, 2005.



Paul-

I am confused here. I don't mean to appear ignorant, but how can someone be declared legitimate, and invalid at the same time. The term "putative" ( definition below) implies that the marriage was based on inconclusive grounds,,,, which is just not true.

adj : commonly put forth or accepted as true on inconclusive grounds; "the foundling's putative father"; "the reputed (or purported) author of the book"; "the supposed date of birth"

Paul, what is your advice then here. Apparently delaneys is not wanted here. Again, legitimate in the eyes of the Church and Civil courst on one hand,,, but yet based on an "invalid" marriage. I am not any more comfortable being declared invalid than I am illegitimate.

I am very valid, and was consumated in a valid graced and sacramental wedding

-- Glenn G (gjgreil@hotmail.com), February 25, 2005.


My previous message did not post, or for some irrational reason was deleted.

My points are that a) children from any union that is declared null are hurt, and b) children from any sacramental marriage that is declared null by an illegitimate decree (i.e., one decreed in error to fact, law or both) are hurt even more. The current process brutalizes both children and spouses. Its an immoral abomination.

And woe to you that are responsible. ("There is room in hell lined with the skulls of priests and bishops"...Saint John Chrysostom).

-- Pat Delaney (patrickrdelaney@yahoo.com), February 25, 2005.


Since the annulment process doesn't even commence until the couple are already civilly devorced, and since the declaration of nullity has no effect on the status of the children, what harm does the annulment do to the children, above and beyond the divorce and the fact of a failed relationship? I certainly agree that the termination of relationship between a child's parents has a harmful effect on the child, but the annulment is the least of it. Whatever damage is going to result has already resulted before - and in most cases long before - any decree of nullity is issued. In fact, the children don't even have to know about the annulment; but they are certainly aware that their parents are no longer living together, with or without the annulment.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 25, 2005.

So despite the fact that we are not Catholics why were my children so upset by this they wanted to stop contact with me if I insisted on trying for this without their mother's agreement? Because I wanted to try and say in the view of the Catholic Church our marriage never existed, because my Catholic girlfriend wants to marry in church.

I think children have a right to know that their parents are doing something as important as annuling their marriage. Any Catholic child would know that this had been done without being told, if one of their parents suddenly remarried in church. Probably a more traumatic way to find out that being told by a parent that this had happened.

-- James (anon@anon.com), February 25, 2005.


A Decree of Nullity states that a valid marriage never existed, it does not state that no marriage whatsoever existed. There was still the natural bond.

Anyway, the Church never does anything, nor can She do anything to make children illegitimate, that can only be done by parents who produce children out of wedlock such as without marriage ever, or in an adulterous relationship outside a valid marriage. The Church, on the other hand, does everything in her power to legitimate children:

Canon 1139 - Illegitimate children are legitimated by the subsequent marriage of their parents, whether valid or putative, or by rescript of the Holy See. (Emphasis added, the Church will legitimate children on request for specific reasons - such as lillegitimate children who are subsequently adopted. Also notice subsequent; if they marry 20 years later the children are legitimated.)

Canon 1061 - § 3. An invalid marriage is said to be putitive if it has been celebrated in good faith by at least one party.

A putative marriage is a marriage where either of the two believe it to be legitimate or valid.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 25, 2005.



"...Better yet, some advice on dealing with these feelings of betrayal..."

So what if you are a "bastard"?[ Not saying you are because the Church can never say this].. Who cares? God made you.

You're Dad could die tommorow. Pray for him and offer your hurt for his soul. Don't waste it.

May God bless your Mom.

-- - (David@excite.com), February 25, 2005.


David,

You can't be serious. If you are serious then I will pray for you and your very sad misguided way of thinking. How old are you anyway? Do you live in the real world? To say who cares if I am a bastard is absurd. Although I do pray for both my parents,,,,,,,,,, THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE..... Hello McFly wake up!!!!!!! Having a parent wanting to annul a fully sanctified union after 30 years with two fully grown adults just for his OWN CONVENIENCE is what is on the table. you obviously for some reason think he should be allowed to do so. Furthermore, you must side with the US Tribunals who approve of 96% of world wide annulments. The holy father himself wants changes in the way annulments are viewed in North America. Who cares if the church can just sign a few arbitrary papers and claim my parents marriage never happened? I DO,,,, and who cares if the subsequent defined meaning basically transmitts my existence from being valid in the eyes of the church to being bastardized,,,,,,,,,,,, I CARE YOU INSENSITIVE FOOL. Being devout does not mean to be blind. God gave you logic and a brain use it, instead spuing the typical religous fotter.

-- Glenn G (gjgreil@hotmail.com), February 26, 2005.


"the subsequent defined meaning basically transmitts [sic] my existence from being valid in the eyes of the church to being bastardized"

You've already been informed this is not the case nor will it be.

As an aside, the U.S. (and Canada for that matter) record of granting annulments is, I believe, a problem not because there is a lack of respect for valid marriages, but a lack of respect for marriage period. Let me explain: too many couples are allowed to married that shouldn't be. They are not properly formed for this commitment, and in many cases it is a valid argument that they did not give free consent (the one big necessity for the validity of marriage) because they were not duly informed of the consent they are asked to give. Formation for the commitment of Holy Orders is a bare minimum of five years, most couples get a partial weekend course.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 26, 2005.


Excuse me Saint John C., it was actually your brother Athanasius I meant to quote:

And insofar as criticism of bishops is concerned, none other than Saint Athanasius said that "The floor of Hell is littered with the skulls of bishops and priests."

-- Pat Delaney (patrickrdelaney@yahoo.com), February 26, 2005.


What's your point? Is Father going to hell, Pat? Are the tribunes going to hell, because they interpret Canon Law as written? If and when these things are reformed, all judgments that are rendered falsely will be contrary to God's justice and the Church's; not only to you. Meanwhile, don't picture those priests in hell.



-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 26, 2005.


"The floor of Hell is littered with the skulls of bishops and priests."

They know what they have done or are doing. Dissembling for them won't save those that are already lost, or help those that are on the way.

-- Pat Delaney (patrickrdelaney@yahoo.com), February 26, 2005.


Glenn,

Stop crying like a "stuck pig"! You have no idea what I believe or agree with... How can YOU?

If it bothers you than go complain to someone that matters and can do something about it. Don't talk down to me because your are mad at your Dad.

Go make some noise with the right people. Rember its the loudest wheel that always get the most grease. Or you can pray about it and offer your "anger" for your Dads' soul. Offer this anger up. Don't waste this.

May God bless your Mom.

-- - (David@excite.com), February 26, 2005.


David- This will be my last post, as I have received the information I need to proceed. As far as your " stuck pig" comment... how nice,,,, first you belittle then you insult,,, what I guy. You are right I have know idea what you believe,,,,, but ask yourself this,,,, what if your parents wanted to annul their marriage after 30 years???

-- Glenn G (gjgreil@hotmail.com), February 27, 2005.

Glenn G, I agree that David is very rude, intolerant and uncharitable, but if I may I will answer your question, “what if your parents wanted to annul their marriage after 30 years?”

People don’t suddenly decide to ASK FOR (not “get”) an annulment after 30 years of happily living together. If my parents DID decide to get an annulment, it would only be (probably many years) AFTER they had separated and divorced, and after they had then found new friend/s of the opposite sex whom they wished to marry. After all the trauma of this, if they THEN decided to seek an annulment, it would actually make me feel a bit BETTER.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 27, 2005.


"Glenn G, I agree that David is very rude, intolerant and uncharitable, but if I may I will answer your question.."

Steve, you have defended a priest in this forum after he used "T"(his seminarian) as a love toy....... and then counseled him with a another sexual sin...

"...and after they had then found new friend/s of the opposite sex whom they wished to marry. After all the trauma of this, if they THEN decided to seek an annulment, it would actually make me feel a bit BETTER.."

Two wrongs don't make it right Steve! "Making you feel beter" is not the Catholic way..." You thought it was ok for the priest to give advice after he "felt better" with the younger man...

You reminded me of Lucifer with your fight for excomunicated kerry.

-- - (David@excite.com), February 27, 2005.


Once again, excited David is howling about perverted sex. The subject of boy sex and rapes makes David come to life with a bang! David never passes an opportunity to slam doors on somebody who isn't LIVID about sexual sin like he is. And, as usual; getting in somebody's face like a Dobermann. WHOA, BOY! Settle down, King!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 28, 2005.

Wow, this has been very tense. Just a few thoughts for eveyone out there: Doesn't Jesus teach us to be forgiving? Jesus is loving and forgiving, and He wants us to follow in his foot steps, doesn't He? I realize that there is hurt, I have been hurt, too, but we need to overcome the hurt and bitterness and move on and forgive.

God bless you all.

Hans

-- Hans (hs_r2d2@yahoo.com), February 28, 2005.


Hans,

Of course, you have the proper understanding and must be a good Christian. But your mother and father haven't become impediments on your way through life. You haven't been heartbroken by something nobody will ever convince you is OK, or ''You'll get over it.''

Glenn wants God to KNOW-- But God knows every heart much more intimately than any human being. We have to lament a cruel thing happening in our close family, and this one is cruel. Glenn feels overcome by an injustice; as if his Dad is now-- Without any impediment just as good a Catholic as he was when his mother married him??? Going into Holy Mass again, to re-marry?

Gee. I would rather have died than see that happening in my family. Glenn's father is on extremely uncertain ground, and endangers his immortal soul. NO MATTER what the anullment panel decides. God is not mocked.

I maintain the Tribunal is not in actual sin. Possibly borderline, but still lawful. However, spouses should not offend God. They'll ultimately answer before the Judgment Seat. The trouble is Glenn's soul has been damaged now.

He has to repair his undermined faith. So he can go on living as God commands. We all should pray for him today.

Most Glorious and Sacred Heart of Jesus; in Thee will our hearts find peace and everlasting JOY; grant our brother a new, holy beginning if it pleases Our Father's Will. His cross shall not prostrate him forever, yet his soul is hardened with sorrow on the way.

Give him Thy grace and consolation, uplifting and unsparing; now and forever. For Glenn, with all our love we pray Thee, Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 28, 2005.


"Once again, excited David is howling about perverted sex..."

Yes I am Gene. It disgusts me. I have nothing but respect for young men and will always demand the get respect.[ I don't want them to abused like you were.."

The subject of boy sex and rapes makes David come to life with a bang!

It does Gene.. I want all Gods children to enjoy their innocense. And not get abused like yourself was..[ and openly talked of by uncle]..

Pray to end this evil..

-- - (David@excite.com), March 03, 2005.


There is no end in this world to evil. It's not even news.

I am just as freaked out by perversion as you. I keep quiet, that's all; because harping on it becomes insane. It destroys love of our neighbor and Christian charity. It encourages hatred and witch-hunts. Notice how Our Lord in the gospels never went witch- hunting. Never spit at even one soul, not even Judas? It was BELOW Him to carry on as if He couldn't stand some kinds of sinners. He was TOO NOBLE to balk at even the lepers. He is DIVINE.

You keep rejecting the lepers, not the sin. Satan enjoys pointing at every sin he sees, and he loves it. I don't want to be like that. My heart breaks when I figure somebody's a pervert. The last thing I ought to do is advertise how dirty he is.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 03, 2005.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ