The Creed of a nonbeliever

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread

Laurent, Rod and Laurent, since I found the response to your question by Laurent important enough to stand on its own, I decided to make it into a thread.

Your Question I would like for you to present your credo. How do you justify your faith in whatever it is that you have faith in. How can you be so sure that you are in the truth. Obviously, you believe that we who consider ourselves "Christians" are in the wrong, by your estimation. I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm trying to understand the other side of the coin.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 07, 2005

Rod , thx for your question:

Hopefully I don't sound too boring , or a bit too confused !!

What is true or is the truth , I really don't know , even no-one knows !! btw: Why there are so many religions ??

What I do believe:

Well simple , I REALLY don't believe in ALL those made-up heaven & hell creatures !! Actually , what you believe , that's up to you !! In some things we do have the same view / opinion , otherones , we're opposites !! So , what concerns with "in the wrong" , mmmm , well , I don't care what you believe !! But some people think their religion is the ONLY truth and they try to "smash" this in to your brains and they also can't stand any comment , and that's something what I really despise !!

I live now , if I die tomorrow , so be it !! In that case , I'm finished , over & out , I'll rot in the ground , but the nature will re-use my corpse !!

Some things I agree with the rcc: abortus / euthanasia / drugs , ....

Some things I disagree with the rcc: the bible , church , mass , pray , homosexuals , a church wedding , crosses , heaven , hell , purgatory , ....

About the subject , sex: it depends on .... , if 2 people really are in love with eachother , and if they are dead-serious with eachother , than I see no problem !! But on the other hand , it's not up to us to tell them they may not have sex , except for:

Of course , sick perverts like rapists , paedophiles , that's something else !!

And yes , parents do have the right (100%) to prohibit their kids to have sex !! Some kids wants to have sex , already at the age of 13 - 14 , that's completely wrong !! Good education is very important !!!!

Tomorrow I'll answer again if necessary , 'cause it's bedtime for me: 1h30CET

BTW: a good fight , mmmm , Terry Funk vs Jerry "the king" Lawler :)

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 07, 2005.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 07, 2005

Answers

Even nonbelievers I have found have morals.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 07, 2005.

And even believers sometimes do wrong things.

A preacher hired a hit-man to kill a man whose wife he was having an affair with. Oh my gosh, how warped could the preacher be, if hes preaching and studying quite the opposite..?

A preacher, Paul Shanley was just sentenced to Life in prison for molesting a few boys back in 80's.

A churchgoer of my brother's molested his infant when babysitting, he was just a month old. She felt the urge to confess and their preacher adviced my brother not to take it up to the police, which he considered... so instead they all had a quiet counseling with the preacher.

And im sure theres more around..

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 08, 2005.


Paul Shanley was a priest at my church in san Bernardino, called saint Anne, Temple.

One day I asked him to bless my two oldest children. At first it looked like he didn't want to. In the end he did. I always askeded myself why he acted that way. 2 years later I got an aswer. He was arrested in san Diego. The trail he had left in Boston was longer than the Boston Marathon.

The Chhristian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.


Wow, what a small world. :P Its just unimaginable how they could commit their lives to one thing and yet act the opposite. I mean, what happened to their faith? Do you attend TCoY?

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 08, 2005.

I'll second that, Laurent..

Im sick of hearing every religon saying theirs are the ultimate truth and that the others are somewhat wrong or cults, even. We should be embracing each other not taking each other down based on differences.

But maybe this will help: Isaiah 66 :) I know it did for me.

i dont blame kids for their sexual urges, its everywhere now!! Im so sick of it, even. -_-

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 08, 2005.



Even nonbelievers I have found have morals

Yes , most of the things , I'll maybe agree with catholics or .... , except for the religious part(s) !!!!

But talking about morals:

I feel the difference between good & bad , but maybe , what I call ok , for some others it's bad & visa versa !! But how do I know it ??

Like porn , it's boring as hell !! Do they feel shame ?? What about later ??

Violence is useless , it hurts people , and it still happens , why ?? !! Self-defence is something else !!

Politic(K) , stinks !!

Paedophiles: It's easy to (mis)use kids , but what about those kids later , those perverts never think about that , they just screw the morals , they have no conscience !!

Rapists , the same as just above !!

Stealing things , even I get the chance , i will NOT do it , because it makes feeling bad !! My conscience it will suffer !!

Cheating: the pain , the suffering , why people wanna do it ??

Real Revenge: The Sweet Smell of Revenge , is it really sweet ??

Education: every parent raise their kids different , so .... the right education is very important for later !!!!

Maybe , it has to do with my education or maybe my feelings ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 08, 2005.


Here is the main point of my concerns, Laurent:

"Maybe , it has to do with my education or maybe my feelings ?? "--Laurent.

What is the source of those innate morals? Surely, it isn't just a product of "feelings", is it?

Why would there be good and bad "morals"??

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.


I believe the root of all evil comes down to this: Selfishness. "I, Me, Mine."

People can be so selfish to the point they will rob and kill someone for money, rape, and/or anything evil. Its because the person cannot "think outside the box" The person just cares about what they want, how they feel when they have it, they care about being "better than everyone else" "Tougher than anyone else" "richer than anyone else" "cooler" or whatever..

They wouldnt stop to think about how latter would feel, try to put themselves in their victims shoes for the last 5 minutes of their experience or even lives. Nope, they dont care squat about others.

We're all more connected than we know, and we dont even see that. -_-

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 08, 2005.


I know that the way I was brought up, taught by my parents and teachers had a profound effect on my moral and ethical development, and the way I live my life today.

My Catholic education "influenced" the way I examine my motives and the way I ultimately decide how to live life. DNA probably has something to do with it also.

When I lost my faith and was in an atheistic phase of life, it didn't change the way I lived. I was not "less moral or ethical" And I don't think I'm now any more "moral or ethical" since returning to an orientaion of faith and belief.

My point I guess, is that I agree that being "religious" or being a believer does not necessarily make you a "good" person. On the other hand it certainly doesn't hurt to be religious unless it involves some sort of false piety. I'm also somewhat suspicious about being a believer "only" to secure a place in heaven. Something about that seems wrong too. Motives---

I do think that religious teaching and belief, presented in the "right" way can be a valuable influence on one's moral and ethical development.

Is this post a mish-mash--- or what?

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), March 08, 2005.


"And yes , parents do have the right (100%) to prohibit their kids to have sex !!"

[you call this morals?...]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 09, 2005.



"Maybe , it has to do with my education or maybe my feelings ?? "--Laurent.

What is the source of those innate morals? Surely, it isn't just a product of "feelings", is it?

I'm raised by my parents & school , my parents are raised by their parents & school , it has to start someone , but .... what was before that all ?? No-one knows the truth !! To find it out , we would need to have a time machine !!

Why would there be good and bad "morals"??

Why do we need morals ?? Who invented them ?? Why do we exist & what's our purpose ?? Who decide(s)(d) what is wrong or bad ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 09, 2005.


sdqa , Parents really got the right to prohibit their kids to have sex , especially at home !!

Parents got the right to prohibit their kids to party at the weekends , when the kids don't obey their parents !!

Parents got the right to prohibit their kids to watch TV , when the kids don't obey their parents !!

But , if the kids can hold themselves , they don't listen , they have to "suffer" the consequences !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 09, 2005.


I have this really interesting book about the lives and ideas of atheists. I started reading, but put it down for my attentions were required elswhere. My idea for reading this book was to discover the reasoning and logic of these folks. It became evident that these folks had a strong faith in God, but they demanded physical evidence of His existence. The universe, the matter, the creation, was not enough to convince these folks that God exists. So, they rejected Him. I think they are actually taunting God into showing His presence. The atheists resort to the quirky logic of asserting that God can never be proven to exist; therefore, there is no God. Well, that logic is flawed, of course. Mainly, these folks still have the problem of proving their own origin of existence. But, the unique show of evidence is the existence of good and evil.

There is a Source.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.


Rod , the main question is: What is the truth ??

And is that the reason why perfection doesn't exist ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 09, 2005.


Rod , the main question is: What is the truth ??

We are born; we live; we die. We exist; we reproduce; we think. Other things exist, both physically and metaphysically. That is truth in the human mind.

And is that the reason why perfection doesn't exist ?? But, perfection does exist. The ordered system and function of our universe and its perpetual nature is perfect. Even when the end is near, perfection shall rule over all that is. That is the only perfection that is conceivable in man's mortal mind. But, we do have a higher Perfection. That Perfection is beyond our mortality and intellect to grasp its understanding. That Perfection makes our perception of this existence miniscule exponentially upon many times. Everything we see and understand is like a small crumb of the pie. Yet, it isn't the pie, but the Creator that is Perfection.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.



But, perfection does exist.

Than why existance exist ??

Even when the end is near, perfection shall rule over all that is.

Is dead , really perfection ??

But, we do have a higher Perfection.

Than , why we have to die ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 09, 2005.


I understand the desire for proof. I was in a "prove it " phase for a good many years. Its actually limiting in a lot of ways.

Proof and faith can not be put in the same pot. Forget about asking for proofs; you're never going to get them---except for the "word puzzle" types that are ultimately unfulfilling --- translated as --- "they never worked for me."

To Laurent and sdqa you will never get a "satisfying" proof for any of this. I never did. Some will offer bible quotes as proof but it doesn't work as proof if you don't accept the bible as authoritative. (And you won't do that without proof.)

When I stopped requiring proofs for faith, and rational explanations for all that seems impossible, it allowed me to think more creatively about the whole works. It allowed me to find ways to believe and continue to work out having faith again. Of course at some level, deep inside, I must have wanted (without actually knowing) to have faith.

Don't take this as "Gospel" because this isn't Catholic teaching or standard Christian teaching -just me- but I don't think everyone is damned who gets caught by death and is not a Christian.

God makes the final decision and can save anyone he wants---even non believers. Hows that for rad!

Disclaimer: The above is my own theology; follow it at your own risk!

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), March 09, 2005.


Laurent

You nor I can give anyone or ourself hard proof of our own existence. For all we know, everything could be an illusion. The most sobering and awe inspiring thing is that we believe that we exist. Why do we exist? How could some random accident of life ever happen? I look into the night sky and find it difficult to grasp the whole idea of existence. It is so impossible that anything exists at all. It is so impossible to find a beginning or to accept the idea that there never was a beginning, only an eternity. It is outside of our thinking that there is an answer to all of this existence. For some, death will mean nothing and bring silence to any questions we ever had. For others, death is the threashold to those answers we seek. Death does not scare me. There was a period in my life when I thought that death would finally meet with me. I actually smiled at my doctor. I thought "well, finally I get to see the other side".

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.


I agree with Jim, not only Christians will have a place in heaven. Nor only Jews or Muslims. God will weigh the spirits of everyone, and only He will know who is good-hearted and tried to seek goodness in his/her lifetime. What about the souls who had never heard of Jesus Christ..? Are they doomed because Jesus is the "only" way to heaven..? No, i dont think so.

There is more truth in God's art, also known as nature, than there is in any books anywhere. You can tell God's taste by looking at animals, flowers, stars in the nightsky, rainbows,.. the list goes on and on.. Life is so beautiful.

What is truth..? "Do unto others as you would want others to do unto you." "Love your neighbor as yourself." Basically, we are more connected than we think-know. We're all of the same. Everything is of God, and if anyone hurts anything, we're hurting God and ourselves. That is the God-consciousness. Not the "I, me, mine" consciousness.. Just my 2 cents anyway.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.


"sdqa , Parents really got the right to prohibit their kids to have sex , especially at home !!"

[that's pure Trife,if the kids want to have sex it's their own thing and nobody elses,it's their freedom to do so and their choise,it's their life,their mind and their body,not of the parents,this what you are saying ain't fair...i stand for freedom,not tyranny...]-sdqa {Edited by Zarove, for language. Please do not use cursewords on ask Jesus. Thank You.( No other content altered.)}

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 09, 2005.


sdqa

If you become a parent one day, will you require anything of your children? Would there be any limits on their behavior at all? If so, what would happen if they disagreed with you?

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), March 09, 2005.


But, then here come the parents to take care of the mess made for them by their kids. Freedom at whose expense? The parents, society, and somebody else. Let's not forget the problems stemming from that freedom without responsibility.

....

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.


And suppose you get the girl pregnant..? WIll you be ready and responsible enough to be a father? What if its not in your plans..? The baby would feel un-wanted. Unfortunately its a pretty common thing. -_-

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

Temple,

Its really quite simple.

The parents of the child who has the baby must take care of it and love it.

The freedom of their children cannot be compromised.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), March 09, 2005.


sdqa , You're right , if they wanna have sex , some of them will do it !! But , they're always talking about sex , but they're not see or talking about the consequences !! I see this here (especially at the weekends) , some kids or even adults , they're going wild , and sometimes , .... yep , and sometimes , a bit later , there's a "fight" going on , they're regret what they have done !!

----------------------------------------------------------------

Jim: God makes the final decision and can save anyone he wants--- even non believers.

Temple: Everything is of God, and if anyone hurts anything, we're hurting God and ourselves.

Sorry , I don't accept this , to me , this is a made-up creature invented by mankind !!

Rod , eternity , strange enough , I believe it has to start somewhere , but in that case , what was before eternity ??

The death , we die and we will never return for ever !!

When I'm watching the night sky , I see the past !! With eternity , there is no past , present & future , or maybe they do exist at the same time !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 09, 2005.


I know, Jim. Im hoping Sdqa would know too. :P

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

Eternity

The past and the future are one. Take point A as the place of origin in the night sky. Take point B as the destination of that origin. We observe point A from our location at point B. We see the past from its future.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.


Temple

I know you got my meaning---I just felt like embelishing on your good point.

Laurent

I don't think you got what I meant. To me it doesn't matter if one believes or not. (see the disclaimer in my post above) I was a non- believer for quite a long time, and during that period, I wouldn't have accepted my statement either. I'm not shocked by non-believers or atheists. Thats why I don't care if you believe or not --- I still like you. You just got hung up on the "God" part of my statement. But no big deal---Non believers can never get past the word "God." Its like a "Stop Sign."

Generally no-one can be made to believe by someone elses argument. Thats why I don't mind if you don't believe. And I never really try to get people to believe because I know its just as hopeless as it was for the people who tried to get me to believe when I didn't. You're doing what a non believer is supposed to do,---not believe.

There is no proof, at least not the kind you seek. You hve to come to it yourself.

If however (hypothetically), it all turns out to be true and you end up finding out you were wrong about not believing, I personally, ( and many will disagree) still think you have a chance at salvation (which I know you don't believe in.) The only shot at the proof you seek will happen in the "end."---and I am not trying to get into Anselm's Proof which I happen to detest.

You might be completely right and I'm wasting my time going to church, saying prayers, and agonizing about my shakey faith. But I'll do it anyway. It feels right to me---NOW, never did before. Thats faith. For me, very difficult but I want it.

If you do ever come to be a believer, thats ok with me too. I'll never say "told you so"

I don't however, think being a believer is a one way ticket to eternal life. (hypothetically that is, if it were actually to be true.) If its all true, rotten believers probably won't make it in. ( to the place where non believers don't believe)

Salute & Cheers From a Shakey Believer!

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), March 09, 2005.


Jim , I've seen your disclaimer from the beginning , so :)

Thats why I don't care if you believe or not --- I still like you.

Agree !!

I wouldn't have accepted my statement either

But no big deal---Non believers can never get past the word "God." Its like a "Stop Sign."

To me , it's not a stop sign , for me it simply doesn't exist , like I said , it's a made-up creature , something like a fantasy !!

Generally no-one can be made to believe by someone elses argument.

That's 100% true !! That's why I tell people not to follow me , I am I , not someone else !! Believe (or Anti-believe) is something personal !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 10, 2005.


Matter decays after death. Matter becomes part of something else or it is converted into other matter. So, what about our life-force. That thing that caused us to live in the first place, what is it? What makes our mind and body tick? What happens to that "spirit" after we die? Does it too become part of something else? Does it too convert to another life-force? What is that thing that causes life and then flees from this matter we call our body?

What happens after death?

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.


Laurent

What is truth?

Its an old question, Herod Aggripa, or someone asked the same thing 2000 yrs ago.

I think the question is common to everyone in every age. Truth must exist, the reason for everything. Temple is completely wrong about believing in every 'religion'. The truth logically can only be one thing, only one thing can be true at any one time. In Catholicism the words truth and religion are interchangable. Catholicism is the truth, it is the only religion, the only truth, the way, the truth and the Life.

Laurent in one of your posts above you listed a series of moral values you hold. These had a strange resemblence to the Ten Commandments. Maybe the only one missing was the 'reason' for believing and keeping to all of them. The truth, the true God, provides a reason. Believing in God is believing in the truth and loving God is loving the truth and loving the truth automatically results in living the Commandments or living the faith.

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 10, 2005.


"Catholicism is the truth, it is the only religion, the only truth, the way, the truth and the Life."

[prove it]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 10, 2005.


Hmmm.

I would like for SDQA to prove his "truth" right along with everyone's proofs. It would seem that hunches and gut feelings become dissolved in logic and teachings. So then, whose hunches and feelings are credible and whose are soluable?

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.


I think the question is common to everyone in every age. Truth must exist, the reason for everything. Temple is completely wrong about believing in every 'religion'. The truth logically can only be one thing, only one thing can be true at any one time. In Catholicism the words truth and religion are interchangable. Catholicism is the truth, it is the only religion, the only truth, the way, the truth and the Life. -Ming

This is exactly the attitude in most religion i see that encourages non-believers to see the way they do! That attitude is wrong. Im not saying catholicism is wrong, i wouldnt go that far.. but im saying that attitude alone is. This is why there are so many problems around the world.. wake up. You are "smashing" your "truth" into Laurent's mind just as he described in the original post above. How can one believe in one thing if every religion is "smashing" and "insisting" that theirs is the "ONLY" truth.

wake up. Think outside the box. This method of reaching others by "smashing" your truth into their minds ARENT WORKING! This kind of attitude is why protestants and catholics in midieval times Eurpoe were persecuting each other. They burned each other!! That is insanity!! That is evil! Its just plain wrong! Im just outraged, sorry.. ill calm down, but...

think about it.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 10, 2005.


And think about it: You said catholicism is interchangeable.. would you trust their "truth" if theyve agreed to change some..? Wouldnt it mean it is not the "original" truth but just a little tad different from the "real" "truth"..?

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 10, 2005.

One must first identify what the True is. Then, we must see if the Truth has remained consistent throughout history before we can say that the Truth has been fiddled with.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.


Laurent in one of your posts above you listed a series of moral values you hold. These had a strange resemblence to the Ten Commandments.

http://www.cin.org/deca.html

http://www.posi tiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.h tm

http://www.ainglkiss.com/10com/

http://www.ainglkiss.com/10com/

With the catholic , I disagree with 1 & 2 & 3 !!

With the otherone , I disagree with 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 10, 2005.


Temple, Laurent

""This is exactly the attitude in most religion i see that encourages non-believers to see the way they do! That attitude is wrong. Im not saying catholicism is wrong, i wouldnt go that far.. but im saying that attitude alone is. This is why there are so many problems around the world.. wake up. You are "smashing" your "truth" into Laurent's mind just as he described in the original post above. How can one believe in one thing if every religion is "smashing" and "insisting" that theirs is the "ONLY" truth. ""

Firstly, I cannot, and neither can anyone else, make anyone believe anything against their will.

Secondly, I say Catholicism is true because it is.

Thirdly, if I said it mightnt be true or that it doesent matter to avoid offending people I wouldnt be acting in their best interests.

Fourthly, I gain nothing personally if someone becomes catholic.

"Im not saying catholicism is wrong, i wouldnt go that far.. but im saying that attitude alone is"-Temple The attitude of forcing or smashing is not mine it has no place in Catholicism, it has nothing to do with the truth. But there is truth and there are people seeking truth and I will not bar one from the other. My arguement is, I suppose, 'here is the truth, come and see for yourself' or as some one else said 'taste and see that the Lord is good'.

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 10, 2005.


"[prove it]"-sdqa

You are in good company sqda, the greatest man who ever lived didnt believe either. He foúnd he could believe it was true when he heard the words 'the lame walk, the blind see'.

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 10, 2005.


Secondly, I say Catholicism is true because it is. - Ming

That is so easy for you to say. (Thats all i have to say) :P Im glad youre not the kind that insists on smashing the truth in people - i agree with "come see for yourself" method... Sorry if i jumped on you earlier. :) It wasnt you but the attitude in general of "This is the ONLY truth, the ONLY way to heaven" that i disagreed with.

I still say it is wrong to begin with. But thats just me.

Temple: Everything is of God, and if anyone hurts anything, we're hurting God and ourselves. Sorry , I don't accept this , to me , this is a made-up creature invented by mankind !! -Laurent

I dont blame you for thinking its all made-up. I do agree that some stuff has been over-elaborated, but it doesnt mean God does not exist..or that violence is natural.

When you picture God, what do you usually see or think about? Maybe its your frame of mind that you cant get past..? I know thats what it was for me. Back then when i didnt believe, i used to think He was picky. He had a "chosen" people. I felt left-out since i was born an american. Like im already doomed and theres nothing i can do about it. When I think of religion, i think of snobbish people who think and act like they are "holier-than-thou" And when i see churches, i felt they were a security-blanket for church-goers.

Boy, was i wrong. There are still a handful of things i disagree with, but still, doesnt mean God isnt there.

Like Jim said - the word "God" is like a stop-sign for skepticals.. But remember (I hope i wont get flamed for this) God isnt a real name for .. the One up there. He's a "Maker"... He's a "I will be what I will be." Exodus 3:14 "I will be" spells out YHWH in Hebrew. If youve never seen how its written in Hebrew, i strongly suggest for you to look it up. It does resemble something we see everyday here on earth. :)

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 10, 2005.


woops, i made a mistake.. I said "I will be" spells out YHWH but im wrong. "I will be" spells out AHYH. People cant say "I will be" as if they are God.. so they changed I to He. He will be = YHWH

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 10, 2005.

as a non-believer before, i only knew as much as a book cover would describe the book itself...very little.

I remember asking my brother, who at the time was a believer for a few years, the meaning of Jesus' name.

Matthew 1:21 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

God had a reason for giving Mary a specific name for Jesus. And i can safely say it isnt 'Jesus'

In Hebrew - Jesus was known as Yah'shua. God's name as known among His people - Yahweh. Yah'shua came in the name of Yahweh. Shua means to save. So His name does have a meaning. :)

The NT is written in Greek, and for some reason, the Greeks knew him as "Iesous" I dont see any resemblance, even the pronounciation isnt close. And today we know them as Jesus and God.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 10, 2005.


You are right , temple. Ancient Hebrew had no I am, you are, he is, she is,....for teh present, only the future.

From a thread I had in the past: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00BmKe

Oldest name for God

The future tense is formed thus by suffixes

Eheye (see the e at the beginning) I will be This is what God said in Exodus 3:14 Eheyeh asher eheyeh (I will be what I will be)

Tiheye(see ti) You will be (male) Tiheyi -you will be-female

Yehiyeh (see Ye) He will be (sometimes ya or yo) This is what uses using the third person in Exodus 3:15 Yahweh...this is my name forever.. So God's name is third person future.

Tiheyeh -She will be

Nehiyeh (see Ne)-We will be

Tehiyu(see Te) you will be

Yehiyu (see Ye)They will be

For the past:ti for I, ta and it for you, ...

hayiti (I was), hayita (you were),hayit (you were-female), haya(he was), haytah (she was), hayenu( we were),Hayeetem(you were), Hayeeten (you were-female plural), hayu (they were).

The Christian Yahwist

PS: so those who still insist that God is I am are 100% confused.

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 27, 2004.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.


:) Glad you helped me out, Elpidio.

I recently got a Strongs concordance and i can see some distinct differences in Hebrew

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 10, 2005.


Woops, i wasnt finished typing. :P Ignore my previous post.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 10, 2005.

My NKJV bible actually says YAH :)

Sing to God, sing praises to His name. Extol Him who rides on the clouds, by His name YAH, and rejoice before him. -Ps 68:4

That they may know that You, whose name alone is Yah, are the most high over all the earth. Ps 83:18

Trust in the Lord forever, for in YAH the Lord is everlasting strength. -Isaiah 26:4

I said, I shall not see YAH the Lord in the land of the living, I shall observe man no more among the inhabitants of the world. Isaiah 38:11

Who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal. -Jeremiah 23:27

Baal was addressed to as "Lord" "God" "Master" etc.

Would you believe it?!

Question: Why would God give a memorial to be known to all generations forever as said in Exodus 3:14 if it were meant to be replaced in fear of using his name in vain...? I say its the false prophets who had "dreams" that we should all stop pronouncing His sacred name, which He wanted to be known AS.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 10, 2005.


This is an old post from "God's oldest name" link Elpidio provided above..

Elpidio-- The Hebrew reads:

God spoke to Moshe; he said to him, "I am Adonai. I appeared to Avraham, yitz'chak and ya'akov as El Shaddai, although I did not make myself known to them by my name, Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh {Adonai}.

Adonai--Literally *My Lord*..a word the Hebrew uses to refer to God.

So what's your point?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 06, 2004.

Faith, you're right.. Adonai is God in Hebrew. But Yod Hey Vav Hey is the real thing.. Back then Hebrews didnt have vowels in their writing system. "I will be what i will be" = "He will be what He will be" "He will be" = Y H W H = YAHWEH = Yah'Shua (Jesus)

Yah'shua came in the name of Yahweh - He came to save people from their sins.

Jesus came in the name of God. What meaning does "Jesus" contain? Nothing to me anyway..

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 10, 2005.


Temple,

You wrote, "Question: Why would God give a memorial to be known to all generations forever as said in Exodus 3:14 if it were meant to be replaced in fear of using his name in vain...? I say its the false prophets who had "dreams" that we should all stop pronouncing His sacred name, which He wanted to be known AS."

Who was God speaking to in Exodus 3:13-22??? It does make a difference...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 10, 2005.


To answer your question, Kevin.. He was speaking directly to Moses. But He had Moses write it down and to have it be a memorial for "all" generations.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 10, 2005.

Even today, the word baal survives, Temple:

Baal was addressed to as "Lord" "God" "Master" etc.

ha baal(husband or master of the house).

Ishtar as Esther

Adonai (Lord)_now as adoni also meaning Mr, sir.

Some words never die. They just change meaning.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.


El Señor.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.


Huh.. i didnt realize that, Elpidio.. El senor.. Good one, Rod. :P

hope that would get some to realize He did give out a name He wanted to be known as and that we replaced it. I consider replacing His name for something cheaper is as using His name in vain.

Think about this: God wanted "I will be what I will be" to be a memorial for all generations forever and this was before Moses got His people out of Egypt. Once they're all out, God wrote the 10 commandments and one of them is not to use His name in vain.. :P

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 11, 2005.


You can spell my first name in 5 different ways and you can pronounce it in almost as many ways as there are people. If my wife abandoned me because she couldnt decide on a spelling - I'd say she was probably looking for excuses.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 11, 2005.

Thats not the point..

Your name is your identity.

Who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal. -Jeremiah 23:27

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 11, 2005.


Temple,

You wrote, "To answer your question, Kevin.. He was speaking directly to Moses. But He had Moses write it down and to have it be a memorial for "all" generations."

Take a look at it again... God was addressing the Israelites, no one else...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 11, 2005.


Oh my gosh, Ming, I thought you are wo-man!

That's as bad as David thinking I was a guy for six months before he realized "I'm a gal!"

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 11, 2005.


catechism. "Moses said to God, 'If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you" ,and they ask me, "What is his name?" what shall I say to them?' God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' And he said, Say this to the people of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you"...this is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughtout all generations.'"

"Inrevealing his mysterious name, YHWH ('I AM HE WHO IS', I AM WHO AM' OR 'I AM WHO I AM'), God says who he is and by what name he is to be called. This divine name is mysterious just as God is mystery. It is at once a name revealed and something like the refusal of a name, and hence it better expresses God as what he is - infinitely above everything that we can understand or say: he is the 'hidden God', his name is ineffable, and he is the God who makes himself close to man."

"Out of respect for the holiness of God, the people of Israel do not pronounce his name. In the reading of Sacred Scripture, the revealed name (YHWH) is replaced by the divine title 'Lord' (in Hebrew ADONAI, in Greek KYRIOS). It is under this title that the divinity of Jesus will be acclaimed: 'Jesus is Lord'."

"By giving his life to free us from sin, Jesus reveals that he himself bears the divine name: 'When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will realize that "I AM".'"

"Jesus means in Hebrew: 'God saves.' At the annunciation, the angel Gabriel gave him the name Jesus as his proper name, which expresses both his identity and his mission. Since God alone can forgive sins, it is God who, in Jesus his eternal Son made man, 'will save his people from their sins'. In Jesus, God recapitulates all of his history of salvation on behalf of men.

The name 'Jesus' signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of ths Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation, so that 'there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.'"

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 11, 2005.


Excellent!...... David was impressed by your fighting talk, Gail.

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 11, 2005.

Oh my gosh, Ming, I thought you are wo-man! That's as bad as David thinking I was a guy for six months before he realized "I'm a gal!"

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 11, 2005.

This David or 'non-catholic' david?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 12, 2005.


That was you thinking Gail was not a female, David Ortiz. I remember that day like it was tomorrow.....hee...hee...yesterday.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 12, 2005.


It was YOU, David Ortiz!!! That's why I started signing my name, "Gail, that Catholic GAL"! Don't you remember?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 12, 2005.

yea I remember...but I am not used to being called by my first name... that's why I was wondering. And I think it was a little more than 6 months I thought that :)

Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.



-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 12, 2005.


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