I posted a reply to someone on the board a few days ago. Whilst I accept I was wrong to be so negative and alarm her without reason, I am angry about a reply I had to my post.

........... "Partner," Teresa?

Yes, sadly, your "partner" in the mortal sin of adultery. Please meditate on this daily until it brings you to repentance. If you do not separate, you need to live as "sister and brother" with the father of your child.

Johanna, it was unfortunate that you got "advice" from Teresa. Not only is she a terrible role model for you, but she probably damaged your peace of mind by mentioning the lack of cooperation by her friend's wife. You are much more likely to encounter cooperation than a lack of it, in the case of your friend. He should not be called your "fiancee," because it is impossible for you to be engaged, due to the fact that he may be married in the eyes of God.

No one can predict how long your friend's nullity case may take. Although some people like to speak of an average time as "one year or so," it could actually take anywhere from a few months to a few years, because there are so many potential variables involved. You should make an appointment with your Catholic pastor and, as you said, "start the ball rolling" as soon as possible.

-- Teresa (teresa45@hotmail.com), March 08, 2005

Answers

To make it simpler I am continuing in another post.

I met my husband several years ago, he had just got divorced from his first wife, I had nothing to do with them parting. She is not a Catholic but had agreed to an annulment as she was planning to marry again herself. (Which she has in a civil ceremony)

She changed her mind when we got custody of the children. We have appealed against the tribunal decision twice without success. She says she will only let this go through if she has the children back. I can't ask this of my husband, because her second husband is violent. He has said all this in the annulment petition but he still did not get it.

So I am supposed to turn my back on a wonderful man and take our child and leave him because he can't get an annulment due to his malicious ex? I couldn't continue my job in a convent school because of this, so I've already made a huge sacrifice.

I feel this is so unjust that I am seriously thinking of turning my back on the Catholic church because of their attitude. They've believe lies over the truth and I can't take this anymore.

-- teresa (teresa45@hotmail.com), March 08, 2005.

Dear Teresa..all of this has to be so very hard emotionally. If I understand your situation correctly, you are a Catholic who chose to marry a divorced man several years ago and now are feeling frustrated, angry and I'm guessing betrayed somehow because the Marriage Tribunal has not given him an annulment from his marriage to his wife. And you feel this is because his wife has lied to the Tribunal.

Assuming that all of this is completely accurate, and the wife has been able to effectively lie to the Tribunal, convincing them through her false witnessing of certain facts of the marriage. How does that reflect poorly on the Tribunal? Marriage Tribunals are presented with statements from each spouse, and often from witnesses as well. These statements are all that they have to go on to make their judgements.

When a Catholic makes a decision to "marry" a divorced person, thinking that their former marriage will be annuled, and then that does not happen, how can one blame the Church? The Church has always taught that we are not to do that in the first place. There is no surprise attached later on then when the Church doesn't change Her mind and say it's OK now to stay together as husband and wife.

What is terribly difficult is to look at ones own responsibilty in these matters. I know, because I've been there. Rather than turning away from the Church, it is infinetly better to turn away from the sin you are in and listen to what God has to say. That is NOT easy to do. Where children are involved, the Church has guidance for you and the man you are with. I encourage you to both to speak with your priest and be willing to do what God would have you do.When people turn to the Church and submit themselves to God's will, He has a wonderful way of making all things new.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), March 08, 2005.

I see where you are coming from. But when I met my husband he had been promised by his first wife she would allow an annulment to go through. I never asked this of him, it was in theory already going to happen.

I accept that the people on the tribunal are human and don't always get at the truth.

What I can't accept is that the fact that my husband is supposed to live out the rest of his life on his own because of this. He has custody of two children, I can't leave him because although I do work as much as possible on a freelance basis, I couldn't manage alone without claiming benefits. Which I would have to as my husband isn't able to support his kids and us if I am not living there.

I don't even want to leave - I love him very much. So don't tell us we have to sleep in separate rooms it's more than I could bear.

-- Teresa (teresa45@hotmail.com), March 08, 2005.

So don't tell us we have to sleep in separate rooms it's more than I could bear.

What would be tougher to bear, sleeping in separate rooms or an eternity in hell?

-- (bo@xx.zz), March 08, 2005.

I'm not telling you that you have to do anything..I have no authority over you..It is the very Word of God which tells you what you should do and the Authority of the Church to inform you of what exactly that is. But you know all that..

You aren't the first person to have this problem. Saint Augustine had a similar dilemma. Knowing what God required of him was one thing, actually DOING what God required of him in the way of being chaste was quite another. Saint Augustine lived in sin with a woman for many years, fathering an illegitimate child with her..refusing to give up his sinful lifestyle because he liked it. He struggled with himself for 15 years over this issue..one of my favorite quotes of his was his admitted prayer "God grant me chastity, but not yet."

Eventually, he came to understand that it was more important to be obedient to God than to indulge himself in sin. Sin is often cloaked in pretty colors you know Teresa. If it weren't attractive to us, we wouldn't be tempted. Human love may feel so strong that the concept of "sin" being attached to it appears to be ridiculous. "But I LOVE him". I'm quite sure that you do. And it begs the question, "do you love him MORE than you love God "?

There is no human love which can ever be put above our love for God. Our love for God comes before anyone on earth. To deny God and put a human being ahead of Him might give you a relatively brief bit of happiness in your earthly lifetime, with the true cost of that decision being the loss of your immortal soul for all eternity.

I hope that you will think much harder on these things, talk with your priest and focus more on your need for God and less on your need for "benefits", etc. The Church has many, MANY means available to help you with those kinds of issues..your immortal soul is so much more important than finances.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), March 08, 2005.

My husband's marriage finished because his first wife met someone else. She is never going back to him. Why is he supposed to live his life out alone because of events that are not of his making?

Lesley you said you had been in a similar situation? If I am not prying I was wondering what you did about it?

-- Teresa (teresa45@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

Don't mind at all..I also chose to marry a divorced man. When I came to my senses and realized the sin we were in and how BOTH of our souls were in such a horrid state of mortal sin because we were "in love" but defying God, we made another choice. As I said before, it wasn't easy. We made a decision to live as brother and sister, literally, and put ALL in the hands of God before we submitted everything to the Marriage Tribunal. Our decision was based upon the belief that one cannot ask God for anything when one is still continuing to live in the state of mortal sin. That just didn't make any sense to us at all. Was it difficult? Of course. Sometimes extremely so. Sin is so much easier..Nobody in this house has haloes over their heads.

It was the grace I received from the Sacrament of Reconciliation which sustained me throughout the process..absolutely. My husband is not Catholic..yet his love for me is such that once he understood the Churchs' teaching on marriage, he committed 100% to "what has to be right in God's eyes".

So when you said you couldn't tolerate separate bedrooms..I thought to myself, "sure you could..if both of you were committed to doing what is right in God's eyes." You haven't yet acknowledged that you are in a state of mortal sin Teresa. You blame your husband's wife, and the Tribunal, and say that you cannot change a thing about your situation because you love this man..It's not that you "cannot"..it's that you choose not to acknowledge that you and the man you are with are both in very grave sin. The next step is to admit that you are, but that "you don't care."

Once again, I hope that you don't get to that point. Try things the right way..there's only one "right way" and that's to do what GOD wants. Go back and talk with your priest. Explore in-depth with the priest exactly what God requires of you at this point in your life, then ask God for the grace to DO what He requires of you..you'll get it.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

Teresa, have you thought of you and another witness listening in on a conversation between your husband and his ex, or even taping the conversation, if that is in fact allowed in your state? Has this person left any contradictory answering machine messages you can use (no, not a lawyer, but you normally give up your right to privacy when you choose to leave a message)? Any emails?

If the ex-wife was able to lie to the tribunal (and from reading many posts here it sounds like it happens in quite a few cases) and affect the outcome, it just goes to show that the Tribunal system is not what it could be, and that the whole issue of divorce and remarriage should be between the two original parties and their facing the truth, not outsiders.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 09, 2005.

She promised that the children would be raised as Catholics - this was a lie. When the first one came she wanted him raised Protestant, but when my husband said he would leave and take their son with him, agreed to do as she had promised. They had another child but the arguments about their religious differences is what finished their marriage.

First she agreed to an annulment but my husband couldn't and wouldn't agree to her having custody without a fight. Her new husband has beaten her up several times, and of course the kids are not going to encouraged to participate in the Catholic faith if they live there. She denied all this to the tribunal and got members of her family and others to lie for her. She was believed. So you see now why I am bitter and angry?

-- Teresa (teesa45@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

The other (promising to raise the children Catholic) is harder to prove, really more of a "he said/she said" issue.

Although I don't know what you mean when you say she promised to "cooperate" with the annulment proceedings. Do you mean give the "right" (as in "coached") answers to get the marriage nullified, or ???

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 09, 2005.

I think that they were going to say that they hadn't given enough thought to their differing but strong religious beliefs and how they were going to overcome them.

-- Teresa (teresa45@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

The fact that the prior wife changed her mind about raising the children Catholic is not a basis for annulment. The tribunal appears to have refused to grant a decree of nullity, because there is no basis for it.

The later re-marriage that Teresa has involved herself in is very sinful, despite any and all her good intentions. She is looking to justify it, but there is no justification. She should separate from this man, who is married to another woman (who also is living in sin.)

This is one big web of self-deception. Thats about it. These people should be told the truth, and why their arrangements are wrong. Its the most charitable thing for them.

-- Pat Delaney (patrickrdelaney@yahoo.com), March 13, 2005.