Prophecy better than speaking in Tonguesgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
Prophecy , according to Paul of Tarsus, is better than speaking in Tongues. David seems to differ on this.I experienced my personal day of Pentecost over 20 years ago in which the power of the Spirit flooded me - the room actually shook for several minutes. Ever since, I've been able to pray in tongues, prophesy, and pray for people and watch them healed of disease. Those are the gifts the Lord placed in me.
David-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 08, 2005.
My response:
Kind of strange, David . In 1983 I joined a Catholic Charismatic group. Even after 5 years, I never was able to speak in tongues. Then in late 2000 I experienced the light. It was a light so strong I could not openm my eyes. It was like a strong wind that kept my eyes closed. Then it was gone. Still, I never spoke or have spoken in tongues. Maybe is because I do: English, Spanish, a lttle French, a little Greek,...Esperanto... I can't buy the argument people speak in tongues not spoken by humans. Acts states that they did.The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.Faith interjected:
Yet, Elpidio--you are still in the dark....-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.
To which David responded:
Elpidio, I don't know what your beliefs were back then, but God knows what He's doing. The Baptism of the Spirit can only be received by true believers, those who have surrendered to Jesus as a true disciple. Surrender is the key. We have to be dead to self and alive in Christ. It's not something that's just received, one must be in right relationship with the Lord first. If you held any of your current beliefs, especially rejecting Jesus as God, then you are not a Christian and not eligible for the Holy Spirit.David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 08, 2005.To respond to your question, since 1 COR 13 says, "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels . . .", so we know that tongues could be either human or angelic in origin. I have heard many different dialects when I pray in tongues. Some sound very familiar. But there are some that are extremely different from anything I've ever heard, this I assume is a language that is either angelic or is one that only God knows, for 1 COR 14 says, "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries." If no one understands, except God, then it can't be of human origin.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 08, 2005. The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005
My response:Well, David,Paul even in the same chapter stated that prophecy was better than tongues.Go figure!!! Quote from the Blue Bible=KJV
1Cr 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 1Cr 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 1Cr 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 1Cr 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 1Cr 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.
And yet love is better yet!
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 08, 2005.
Faith interjected: But--prophecy that does not edify the church is not better than tongues--for sure, Elpidio.... -- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.Tongues edifies the individual who speaks them. Prophecy edifies all who hear it. False prophecies, such as what you deliver, Elpidio, edify no one and condemn the one who speaks them for falsely speaking words on behalf of God. David -- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 08, 2005. Paul says it does, faith.
1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue
1Cr 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Are you calling Paul a liar now, faith?
Can Paul be wrong this time?
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.
Elpidio,I never "differed with this". Show me anywhere above where I said tongues were better than prophecy? You can't. You stated that prophecy was better AFTER my statement. My response to your statement isn't even included on this thread. Do you have a problem with sequence? This reminds me of your so-called prophecies in which you state you predicted something AFTER it's already happened.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 08, 2005.
Re-post it here, David. Add any comments you like. This is not the Catholic Forum.Here you don't need the Non-Catholic Title atached to your name. Here, you are free to express yourself.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.
1 Corinthians 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.
Two ways to interpret this.
1) The gift of tongues is given to believers so that they may convince non-believers of the gospel.
2) The gift of tongues is given to unbelievers.
If the first is true, it violates the very next verse.
1 Corinthians 14:23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
Here, Paul writes that if a believer has the gift of tongues, he/she should not use it before unbelievers. The reason for this is that unbelievers will not understand and think he/she is crazy. This happened at Pentecost.
Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Acts 2:13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”
When those gathered started speaking in tongues, the unbelieving bystanders mocked them.
So then, Paul's words in 1 Corinthians aren't saying we should use tongues to convince unbelievers, but that tongues are given directly to unbelievers.
If you believe that the gift of tongues then, is only for believers, I believe you are mistaken.
Tongues are written about several times in the letters of the New Testament, but I urge anyone to examine the actual events/instances in which the gift was manifested. You will see a common theme.
Acts 2
The disciples of Jesus received the gift of tongues a few days after his ascension. Jesus had instructed them to wait for the Holy Spirit which he would send upon them.
Acts 10
The Gentiles in the house of Cornelius received the gift of tongues during Peter's proclaimation of the gospel. God had promised to make a name for himself among the Gentiles.
Acts 19
Some of John's disciples received the gift of tongues after Paul prayed and layed hands upon them. Paul reminded them that John instructed them to look forward to the one after him, that is Jesus the Christ. God promised to send a prophet to proclaim the kingdom of Heaven before the Messiah.
You see, tongues are not just a sign, but they are a confirmation or witness to the truth of God.
At Pentecost, the gift of tongues confirmed to the disciples that Jesus was the Christ.
In the household of Cornelious, the gift of tongues confirmed to the Gentiles the truth of the gospel that Peter spoke. It also confirmed to the Jews that the covenant of grace had been extended to the Gentiles.
The gift of tongues confirmed to John's disciples that Jesus was the Christ and that he was the one John spoke of.
The gift of tongues is the most visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Not many would be convinced of the Christ had they received the gift of teaching or faith.
Tongues can be given to believers though. Notice that John's disciples received the gift after they had been baptized into the name of Jesus Christ. Tongues still served as confirmation to build-up their new faith.
Jesus also promised that the speaking in tongues would be a sign to those who believe him (Mark 16:17). The tongues were given to the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost. They believed in him. Tongues were given to the Gentiles who believed in the gospel. Tongues were given to the disciples of John who believed Paul's words.
What I'm saying is that the gift of tongues is given both to believers and nonbelievers, depending on when God determines it is necessary to confirm visibly the covenant. I cannot convice a person to believe in Christ by my use of tongues. But if the unbeliever I am proclaiming the gospel to suddenly received the gift, he would be convinced that I am speaking the truth.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.
Nonsense!The gift of tongues is given only to believers--it is a gift of the Holy Spirit. One must have the Holy Spirit in them to receive this gift. It [tongues]is a sign for unbelievers....meaning that when they hear it, it might convict their soul.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.
...or, scare the living daylights out of them..............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.
Faith, you totally missed the passage from Paul.1 Corinthians 14:23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
How do you get, "it will convict their soul," from that??
Paul says clearly that the speaking in tongues will only confuse (not convict) unbelievers.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.
Besides, why would tongues be less important than prophecy if the gift of tongues was capable of bringing souls to Christ?Tongues are a visual manifestation of the Holy Spirit's power. But we are called to live by faith. Faith is hope in the unseen. Reliance on visible evidence (such as speaking in tongues) can diminish the role of faith in the life of a believer, even though the gift is from the Spirit.
What is prophecy? Prophecy at heart is the word of God. Prophecy is greater because prophecy developes trust in the word of God. That is what faith is-- trusting in God.
Prophecy (the word of God) edifies all those who hear it. Tongues does not. The gift of tongues can only edify the speaker because it confirms the presence of the Holy Spirit in his/her own life.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
Luke,Tongues also edify the speaker, that is to build them up or strengthen them. I view it as exercise for the spirit :-)
Tongues are also a powerful way to worship and pray. When we pray in tongues, we are praying God's perfect will for a situation especially when we don't know specifically how to pray.
And finally tongues, when coupled with the gift of interpretation of tongues, can function on par with prophecy in the corporate body. I'd never run into the true gift of interpreting tongues until recently. A man who had received the Baptism of the Spirit 30 years earlier came into our church, when he overheard some praying quietly in tongues he heard them in English but was aware that they were speaking in tongues. He was startled since he'd never experienced it before. Now, he is able to partner with us as we pray for people through laying on of hands - we pray in the Spirit (tongues) and he interprets for the person receiving the prayer so they can hear the heart of God for them. It's been unbelievably powerful. I never realized how important that gift is.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 09, 2005.
I had my times with the Pentecostal church. I too have heard the "speaking in tongues". Quite honestly, it scared me. I felt that I was in the presence of something unholy. Spasms and quaking and uncontrollable shouting is not my idea of a worship service. How can that kind of behavior edify God's will??? My mission in that church was to help in the best way that I could. I did not consider myself closed-minded, but to accept those "charisms" was just too much for me. It edified me to remove my carcass out the door...............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
Luke,I think the point is that unless their is someone there who can interpret the tongue being spoken, it cannot edify God. It is useless.
Unbelievers will not benefit from those speaking in tongues unless their is an interpreter there.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.
Ah!Let me interpret what Faith meant to post:
Unbelievers(hellbound) will not benefit from those speaking in tongues(remain clueless) unless(if, then, depending) their(I think she meant 'thair') is an interpreter(a holy guy) there(I think she meant 'thayer').
..............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
Why would God send us messages all garbled up in some funky dialect that only a few rare people can decipher? Here we go with that favoritism thing again. Is the Bible Sola thing not enough or something? Something is broken.And now, Faith will start in on my immaturity or cluelessness or hysteria or lost page or something...
..............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
If "speaking in tongues" is real, if, how can we determine that God is the source of such "gift"? The only gift of tongues was given to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost. I don't recall any accounts of the Apostles going into spasms or tremors. I also do not recollect the Apostles speaking in some strange alien language not known to humans. They spoke in other known languages so as to spread the Gospel to all nations. I think that St. Paul was out to fix problems with the "speaking in tongues" of his generation. In other words, they had it wrong and were probably over zealous with their hysterical or fanatical approach to their faith. There were numerous problems along with the tongues issues in them churches St. Paul addressed. But, hey! Sure, people can be inspired to speak the Gospels with great fluency and influence. That takes years of study and dedication. Let's just hope that what they speak is the truth, not some garbled up mash of false teaching.............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
Read the Bible rod...Tongues were among the convicting proofs/miracles that led to the salvation of about 3,000 people on that day alone.
I think the same thing can happen today.
And I also think that the ability to speak in tongues is something that is glorious to the person who has received this gift. I think its like a second annointing that only the *mature* believers can experience. I also do not think that every true believer needs to receive this ability to know that he or she is saved. There are many different gifts. Tongues may even be an ability that all true believers have, but can't necessarily access due to things such as sin or fear.
Speaking in tongues is not frowned upon in my church--but it is discouraged because it tends to scare people, and our church is an evangelical outreach. There are many unbelievers about--and not too many interpreters...
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.
Read my post, Faith.It is posted in english, not in "tongues". The mere fact that it can scare people away is evidence enough that the garble-y diction is not evidence of God's will. God does not scare away the soul. God wants us close to Him. Do you actually believe that God would scare away one of His lost children? Hashbulekkaminka, no!
"tongues" are just fatalistic results of extreme anxiety for searching for God by the frustrated believer. This kind of searching is the result of not being satisfied with your Sola Everything doctrines and wishful desires of proof for Divinity.
Plain and simple. The gifts are already present to the believer. They just want more. They want Heaven on earth and don't have the patience to receive their Salvation in due order.
.......
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
Oooo! I just had a thought. Do you speak in tongues, Faith?.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
I don't know rod,I have a dear Christian friend who suddenly, after 20 years of her Christian walk, can speak in tongues. She can't explain it away. But it brings her closer to God in times of prayer. She doesn't do it in front of people though, because she feels it could mislead someone.
So I don't know the answer. I do know that it is biblical.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.
My closest friend (Pentecostal) also speaks in tongues. There are two things to consider: 1)he will be in Heaven, 2)I am a mute destined to fry. Well, until it happens to me, the verdict stands.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
Faith, your friend is very wise, and very humble. She has the right attitude. So many act as if the gift of tongues is "THE badge of spiritual maturity" When people fix their eyes on the gift rather than the giver, they set themselves up for all kinds of mischief.
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 09, 2005.
Yes David, the gift of tongues does edify the speaker. I believe I mentioned that in my last post. But it edifies the speaker only, not the church.Faith, you said basically the same thing. Unless there is someone with the gift of interpretation, tongues cannot edify anyone. This includes unbelievers. The gift of tongues will only confuse an unbeliever. But when that which is spoken in a tongue is interpreted, it is no longer a foreign tongue, but a prophecy.
Prophecy is what convicts, not the tongue. Look at Pentecost again. Not one Jew who heard the disciples speaking in tongues was convicted of anything. Most of them were confused.
"What does this mean?" they asked. Remember some said they were drunk.
That is exactaly what Paul wrote would happen in 1 Corinthians. But, Peter stood up and addressed the crowd. He proclaimed the message of Jesus. Those there were cut to the heart, not by the tongues, by the preaching of the gospel.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
Well, here I agree with you Like. What I'm saying is that the gift of tongues is given both to believers and nonbelievers, depending on when God determines it is necessary to confirm visibly the covenant.I just hope you are able to see that what happened in Azuza st, now a closed street by 3rd street in Los Angeles, by downtown in what is known as little Tokio was fake.
That movement created the Assemblies of God. From there in branched out into over 500 different denominations of tongue speakers to the point it infected catholic college students in the 1970s. It is called Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church. Still also fake.
Speaking in tongues ceased with the Apostles and early followers of Jesus, Luke.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
No rod,I do not speak in tongues--I am definately not ready for that. I was one of those who would be afraid of it--and now, although I don't think it would scare me anymore--I just don't think it's for me.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.
How do you know this, Elpidio?:Speaking in tongues ceased with the Apostles and early followers of Jesus, Luke
Can you support that with Scripture?
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.
LOL!! So our false prophet believes that tongues ceased with the Apostles, but not prophecies. Is that some sort of selective Cessationalist view due to your self-described prophectic gifts and your failure to receive tongues in your earlier attempts? Thus prophecy is still here and tongues are gone? Most Cessationalists believe that all of the gifts ceased with the Apostles. I think this is the first I've heard this particular slant. Though I must say it's consistent with you, Elpidio, insomuch as you pretty much make up your own theology as you go for everything else, why not this?David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 09, 2005.
Hi DavidWait til Kevin pops in for his views on the charisms.
rod,
non-Skid Christian.
...................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
Well, David and faith, historically speaking in tongues disappeared in AD 70. Then strangely they reappeared in Los Angeles at the turn of the 20th century?http://www.higherpraise.com/outlines/hpserm/Sermon57.htm Origin s of pentecostals
Excerpt: The modern Pentecostal movement had its origin in Topeka, Kansas. It began in 1901. Charles Parham is the recognized founder of the Pentecostal movement. Please read: "Parham formulated classical Pentecostal theology in Topeka, Kansas, in 1901 and thus deserves recognition as founder of the Pentecostal movement." Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, page 660. One need no further information to recognize that such a church is not the one Jesus founded. If Charles Fox Parham founded the Pentecostal movement -- Jesus didn't.
A significant event in Pentecostalism occurred in 1906 in Los Angeles, California. It took place at the Apostolic Faith Mission, located at 312 Azusa Street. People who were drawn toward the new ideas Parham was teaching came to this "mission" and later regarded the establishment of this so-called "mission" a "Pentecostal" revival. In reality it was more the arrival of a Pentecostal preacher from Texas,W.J. Seymour. Seymour had been trained by Parham. Parham was the father of the Apostolic Faith Movement. Seymour worked his way into meetings being held in the homes of some who were inclined toward a mystical feeling about their religion. The homes soon became too small and the meeting place at 312 Azusa St. was secured. Seymour began in earnest preaching the baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues. Azusa St. became the center for expressions of so-called tongue speaking and the experience associated with Holy Spirit baptism. By September of 1906 they reported that there were 25 blacks and 300 whites who were members of the "mission." It became probably the first integrated religious group on this continent.
Yet prophetic movements have been there for many years: Agabus, Paul,...during the early years prior to AD 70.
The montanists 170-200 AD, Eusebius tale of how Constantine became a Christian by 311 AD,....the list goes on.
The list includes Popes Pius X, ...., nuns, monks,....Don Bosco(who also dreamed people dying, the Pope in trouble,...and so forth), Joan of Arc,....sister Lucia,...
It also includes Protestants,Orthodox,....even Muslims.
So prophecy is alive and kicking. I just happened to be one of the latest. There will others beside me and after me. My mother was before me. Her father before too. My wife too.Two of my brothers.
I am not an isolated person.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
"Now, he is able to partner with us as we pray for people through laying on of hands - we pray in the Spirit (tongues) and he interprets for the person receiving the prayer so they can hear the heart of God for them. It's been unbelievably powerful. I never realized how important that gift is."So David, what language were you praying in since you claim to be able to pray in a tongue???
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 09, 2005.
I don't know the language, isn't that apparent? If I did, it wouldn't exactly be a supernatural event would it? Scripture says that with the exception of those gifted with interpretation, no one knows what's being said except God Himself. So ask Him what language it is. I only know He authored it, I don't care to microexam it.David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 09, 2005.
Acts 2:5Now there were staying in Jerusalem Godfearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
v.6
When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
v.7
Utterly amazed, they asked: “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
v.8
Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?
v.9
Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
v.10
Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome
v.11
(both Jews and converts to Judaism Cretans and Arabs–we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”
The disciples who received the gift of tongues at Pentecost did not speak in known languages. However, the words they were speaking were heardin a known language, the native language to the listener. The gift of tongues is not speaking Chinese or Russian or Spanish. It does mean though, that the language of the listener will be heard. One person can talk with this gift, but numerous languages can be heard.
If the gift of tongues meant speaking in known languages, the point of having an interpreter would be meaningless. Tongues themselves are not a known language, but may be heard in a known language.
Even though many heard and understood what the diciples were saying, not everyone did.
v.13
Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”
To these men, the disciples were spatting nonsense. Perhaps their words sounded slurred or made-up.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.
Luke, those were real languages.v.6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
If each disciple spoke a language (that's 11), and then you add those with them,...they could speak minimum 20 languages that day, Luke!!!
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.
Each one (of the listeners)heard them (the disciples)
speaking in his (the listener's)
own language.
---------------------------- and again------------------------------
how is it that each of us (the listeners)
hears them (the disciples)
in his (the listener's)
own native language?
----------------------------------------------------------------
The point I'm making is that each individual was hearing the disciples (plural) speak his individual native language. We don't have one disciples speaking one language and a different disciple speaking another. Each listener heard all of the disciples speaking in his own language.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.
Wrong Elpidio. The speakers were NOT actually speaking in the languages that were heard by the listeners. Each person spoke in tongues, a language authored by God - each listener heard what was spoken as if it was in the listener's native tongue. So the miracle wasn't that the speaker in tongues could speak in another person's language, at least not for the Day of Pentecost, the miracle was that one person speaking in tongues could be heard by dozens of different people each hearing their own language.As in the example I provied earlier with the man at our church. When he listens to someone speaking in tongues, he hears them in English, but to everyone else it sounds like a foreign language.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 10, 2005.
You cannot prove that, David. Acts says it otherwise.Paul even clarifies that that.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.
I agree that the disciples were likely mumbling in the Spirit a language of God. But to all who were listening and ready to believe, they understood in their own language. Those who were not ready, merely heard mumbling.From the people I have spoken with, they do not believe they speak in any particular language known by us.
Interpreters would likely be people who hear in their language., and not that they are dicifering an ancient language or something. I don't really know. Oddly enough, I have never heard anyone speaking in a tongue or a mumble of any kind even though I have been a born- again Christian for about eight years now.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 10, 2005.
Please shed light on Paul's supposed commentary on this. As you can see, 3 of us have provided the correct interpretation to these verses which lines up with the way the verses have always been understood. The interpretation you've proposed is the first time I've ever even heard someone take that slant. It doesn't even make sense.David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 10, 2005.
I heard of a guy who could speak in fonts.Sometimes he was bold.
Other times he was sketchy.
But the hardest dialect to understand was symbols.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.
"I don't know the language, isn't that apparent? If I did, it wouldn't exactly be a supernatural event would it? Scripture says that with the exception of those gifted with interpretation, no one knows what's being said except God Himself. So ask Him what language it is. I only know He authored it, I don't care to microexam it."God says in 1 Corinthians 14:14, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful."
What good does it do to pray in a tongue if one cannot interpret what they are saying???
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 10, 2005.
The gift of "tongues" has ceased...Please see the link below:
Can Christians "Speak in Tongues" Today?
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 10, 2005.
I like this comment from the same thread, Kevin:http://www.christiancourier.com/questions/tonguesQuestion.htm
Finally, there is this very telling point. Those who profess to speak in tongues today reveal a woeful inconsistency. In their mission training schools, they must teach their missionaries to speak in the “tongues” of those nations they seek to evangelize. This practice demolishes their contention of being in possession of the miraculous gift of tongues, such as that exhibited on the day of Pentecost.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.
The problem that I see in all this theology is the missing point about how many people heard the disciples and thought that they were hearing them babbling like drunks.Why couldn't those men understand the disciples if they were speaking in known languages?
It seems to me that God designed it so that the disciples were speaking an unknown tongue that was heard by different people in their own language. It isn't as if the Scriptures read that the disciples were speaking in many tongues. They were likely all speaking the same unknown language of the Spirit.
And if it has ceased, then how do we explain those who do speak in tongues? Do you think they are all just putting us on?
Surely God would make it clear in the Scriptures that this would cease, so that when we check the Scriptures to be sure that these messages are from God--we would have clear revelation so that we could discern from false spirits.., hm?
It seems to me that David the non-Catholic is very biblical. Yet, if he were being influenced by deceiving spirits, he should be as mis- lead as an unbeliever.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 10, 2005.
And if it has ceased, then how do we explain those who do speak in tongues? Do you think they are all just putting us on?Yes they are putting on a show, faith. I used to be part of them. Unfortunately for them I could not bring myself that low. One the leaders scolded my group for not speaking in tongues. His group was all crying, shaking , and speaking nonsense to me, faith. This was in a catholic Church in early 1988. After he scolding we went to Shakeys and had something to eat. We all(17 of us) had some long discussion about it.
But Benny Hinn gets the top prize. He makes miracles everywhere. Only one problem: I have not seen him restore sight to a blind man. This guy preaches to thousands, even a million people. They believe him.
Poppoff was discovered using a mike.
Another is Edwards, the one that speaks to the dead. Not even I get those kind of exclusives, faith.
Then there was Ms. Cleo predicting the future. Another fake in many. She was an employee making infomercials.
......
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.
I'm sorry Elpidio,But I know many truly God-fearing people--one who is a very close friend of mine--and trust me when I tell you that they are not lying or putting anyone on about this.
I am sure there are some who are lying--we can find frauds in just about everything. But you cannot tell me that every person who speaks in tongues is faking it.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 10, 2005.
Elpidio,Exactly...
-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 10, 2005.
Kevin.,It should worry you that support for your theory comes from an unbeliever.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2005.
I am positive that speaking in tongues is very real for the person speaking it. It is much the same as for the person who believes that their faith is true. They believe it to be in their reality. That's the major problem with being human. Humans can pretty much make their own reality, whether it is true or false. Look at the many conflicting doctrines and theologies and tell me that what I say is not considerable for being accurate.I have seen many people shake, convulse, and speak in tongues. They truly believe that they are experiencing the Holy Spirit indwelling them. I truly believe that they did believe. I do not believe that they actually experienced the Holy Spirit, but only the result of an exhaustive struggle with life and the fanatical cries and grasps for God. There is no where to go, but up. Life can be cruel and unfair. How dare we continue to partake in such an evil environment? Surely, God can see our faith and cries for Salvation. That's what's going on with these people. The rest of us stand back and watch, but we too pray our humble way. We too must cope in this world. God hears and sees us.
............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
Yet, you believe in Marian apparitions...? And they aren't even biblical.Why do you believe that the Holy Spirit cannot do what the Bible says., yet you believe Mary can come here?
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2005.
Q: "What good does it do to pray in a tongue if one cannot interpret what they are saying???"A: There are several benefits to speaking in tongues. One is that it "edifies" or "strengthens" the one speaking. When one prays in tongues, you can literally sense the power of God flowing through you. In order to pray in tongues, one internally releases the Holy Spirit to flow through one's mouth and lips to make those utterances. That same effort of tuning in to and yielding to the Spirit is required to function in several of the other gifts - prophecy, and words of knowledge and wisdom. All of them require one to "hear" from God on that same internal frequency by your inner spirit. So tongues helps to strenthen one's spirit by yielding to the Holy Spirit which results in being able to hear from God better for other matters. After praying in tongues, I often hear God speak to me in my spirit and He provides direction and teaches me.
Second, see Romans 8:26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will." So when one prays in tongues, the Holy Spirit is praying God's perfect will and you are the vessel through whom He is praying. So in results in partnering with God in intercession and asking God for His perfect will for our lives and whatever else He wants to pray for. Though I am not directly aware of what I am speaking, the Spirit often provides me with impressions and images to let me know what He's praying for. I can frequently shift between tongues and English in prayer as my mind can catch glimpses of what the Spirit is saying and I can enter that flow in my English prayers. I never realized that these impressions were connected to the tongues until the man who interpreted tongues several times told me what I was praying in tongues (while we were ministering together) and as he told me I realized that my mind was aware of those things as well as impressions. Once I knew what was happening, I was able to pay attention to those same impressions and thus enter into the Spirit's flow and truly join in His intercession.
Third, tongues are a powerful tool for worship. Haven't you ever wanted to express you love for God in a deeper way that words don't allow? Singing in tongues is the epitome of worship when one yields to praise and worship authored by the Spirit of God. Inside, you can actualy sense that you are spiritually joining with the choirs of angels and saints in Heaven around God's throne in adoration. It's beyond beautiful.
My fourth comment is simply a thought for you to consider, if tongues is purposeless as you seem to be implying, why would Paul speak in tongues more than anyone? Why bother? Unless, of course, it provded him with a strong benefit.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 11, 2005.
I'm still trying to figure out how one can believe tonuges have ceased but prophecy continued...
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 11, 2005.
Oh, my dear Faith.I never said that I believe in Marian Apparitions. Just because I post on the subject and search for answers, it doesn't mean that I believe that Mary actually appears. I do believe that such image look like the Virgen Mary. I can't explain why the image looks that way. I also believe that some people have formulated their reality to accept those images as being the true visitations of Mary. I would have to see the image appear before me. And, even then, I wouls still remain skeptical.
...........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
"I'm still trying to figure out how one can believe tonuges have ceased but prophecy continued... "--David (moderator).Hmmm. Personal Incredulity as an argument???? How logical is that?
Prophecy is exact. It is either true or false. The inbetween condition only needs time to have its outcome revealed. Then, the outcome is either true of false. Speaking in tongues cannot be as defined as Prophecy.
..........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
"Third, tongues are a powerful tool for worship. Haven't you ever wanted to express you love for God in a deeper way that words don't allow? Singing in tongues is the epitome of worship when one yields to praise and worship authored by the Spirit of God. Inside, you can actualy sense that you are spiritually joining with the choirs of angels and saints in Heaven around God's throne in adoration. It's beyond beautiful. "--David, non-Catholic Christian.Here again is an example of what I'm talking about in regards to Evangelical Doctrines. It isn't enough to do the simple things. There seems to be a need to go beyond the norm into the supernatural practices. There is a need to "sing with the Angels". There is a need to be in Heaven here on earth. The Lord's Prayer doesn't seem to be enough, even when we have been shown how to pray. This is why I question the realness of Speaking in Tongues. How far fanaticism?
rod
non-Allergenic Christian.
.................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
Don't you all think that worship is also done in our interactions with our friends and enemies. God wants us to love. Mantras, Speaking in Tongues, and so on don't quite add up to lifting and carrying your brothers when things are bad. Mother Teresa comes to mind. Well, so does that televangelist. Faith without works is dead, Folks.non-Corrosive Christian.
..........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
Romans 8:26"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will."
I do not see that the person is making any sound at all. I do see that the Spirit himself intercedes with "groans" in wordless expressions. This does not sound like speaking in tongues from a person. This sounds like a Spiritual intercession between the person and God. This sounds like meditation and prayer. It sounds like a communion of believers united in the spirit of knowing and doing God's will.
............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
We "groan" when the "work" is grueling. Hmmmm. Something to think about.rod
non-Invasive Christian.
..............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
I read a church billboard that clearly advertised their disclaimer:
"A non-Charismatic Church."
...............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
I thought, "Wow! they must get awfully bored during their services."So? no gifts from God or what?
I'm waiting for "A Stoic Church"
...........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
non-Allergenic Christian. non-Corrosive Christian. non-Invasive Christian. non-Skid Christian.Heheh, Rod.. :P
what are you gonna come up with next..?
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 11, 2005.
I remember seeing this message on a church billboard:When in the dark, follow the sun.
:)
I liked it. :D
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 11, 2005.
I was gonna say "non-Caloric", but that would really be stretching the truth for me. Hey! I'm just a few pounds over my ideal weight. Give me a break. Hey, "brake" would work too, Jim..........
Ok.....maybe a few pounds wasn't exactly accurate.
...........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
My all time favorite Church Sign:
"What Is Missing in Ch_rch? U are.
..........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
That one's good too. :) I dont remember any others, the one i mentioned above stuck with me.. :P
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 11, 2005.
That's a good one temple, but it should look like this:When in the dark, follow the Son.
[just my opinion, of course!]
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2005.
David [the non-Catholic],I was curious about whether the person who interpreted your tongue heard you in his English? Did it just seem to him like you were praying normally?
What I mean is this--does an interpreter necessarily know you are praying in tongues if you don't tell him, since he'll likely just hear it in his own language?
I get confused about this sort of stuff--and have basically escaped having to deal with it head-on, yet.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2005.
HA!I found my handle:
rod
non-non-Catholic Christian
..........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
I asked him the same question, he said it's like watching a Japanese movie dubbed in English. He hears English, but sees our mouths moving out of sync with what's being said.David
-- CEC Christian (no@spam.com), March 11, 2005.
Very interesting....
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2005.
Hi Faith,I think the person who interprets generally hears the "foreign" language but speaks forth from a sense of "impressions" they get. (I could be wrong though).
It is shame that the gift has become "sensationalized" and exploited. It is a real gift from a real God who has a real message.
I know a gal who had an incrediblly powerful experience with the gift of tongues. A young girl in her church was in a terrible car crash and was helicoptered to a nearby hospital. No one knew what condition she was in, just that it was BAD!
My friend was sitting in her quiet living room that evening, still not having heard a thing, and was strongly prompted to get to her knees and intercede. My friend found herself praying profusely in tongues for several minutes. Immediately following this event, she saw an image of the Lord's hand cover the head of the young gal . .. an impression. Then she heard herself praying "Lord, stop the bleeding!" Over and over and over again, "Lord, stop the bleeding". She was translating what she had just prayed in tongues.
The next morning my friend found out that the girl had had a busted artery in her head that would not stop bleeding. At the precise moment she was compelled to pray the night before, the doctors had informed the parents that they could not stop the bleeding and that things looked very very bleak! God had other plans. He invited my friend into a miracle, a mystery, and used the gift of tongues to BYPASS the mental limits of my friend and thrust her directly into the spirit realm. The little gal went home the very next day!
So, let's don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 11, 2005.
That is awesome, Gail !!!!!!!
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 11, 2005.
That's a good one temple, but it should look like this: When in the dark, follow the Son.Thats the point.. they both almost mean the same. The billboard actually said sun. Jesus claims He's the light and also the way... I was a non-believer when i saw that and it stuck with me because i realized it was true but i wasnt willing to open my soul and mind to the truth at the time.
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 11, 2005.
Great story Gail,I also like the idea of interpreting based on impressions too. I think it probably works differently for each person doing the interpreting. I don't know why I haven't ever come in contact with this at all. It's going on all around me. Maybe I am afraid? I don't know. I don't dwell on it much--but it does peek my curiousity...
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2005.
You're right in that the gifts function differently in each person, that's because the Spirit and the person partner to manifest them, so they always take on some of the personality of the person. Yes, most people who interpret do so from impressions rather than hearing the actual words. It's kind of like when most people prophesy, it's done from impressions, but I have run in to folks who have a different manifestation - one woman I know actually sees a piece of paper with writing on it and she just reads it. The Spirit seems to be very creative and refuses to be placed in a box.For those not aware, most New Testament prophecy is not for predicting the future. It's a function to encourage, exhort and edify the Body (see 1 COR). Sometimes it gets predictive, but mostly it's speaking words from God's heart to someone or to a Body that reveal God knows their situation and provides encouragement and direction, and sometimes correction.
David
-- CEC Christian (no@spam.com), March 11, 2005.
That's better, David. Now you are under your own label.Like I said before, here you are free to express your ideas.CEC Christian (no@spam.com), March 11, 2005.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
Ah! much better, David.See what a little ribbing and mild taunting can do?
The truth shall set you free.
Ah! the world is a better place....ok, the forum is.
rod
non-Toxic.
.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
Thomas had to touch and see in order to believe what he was experiencing. Burn it! I understand what Thomas must have been going through.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
David said "but I have run in to folks who have a different manifestation - one woman I know actually sees a piece of paper with writing on it and she just reads it."Oh, I like that . . . sorta like a FAX from heaven!!
Do you ever wonder why God doesn't answer us like that when we need direction in our lives! You know, like a guy shows up at the door dressed in knickers and says "Trinity Union, Glory-Gram" You sign for it and VOILA, there's your answer!!
HA, HA, HA!!
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 11, 2005.
"Heavengram.....Heavengram..."That would be cool.
.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
"Billygram.....Billygram....." Uh....sorry, Billy Grahm (sp?).......
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.
Ever since I saw him at the Rose Bowl in Psadena in Dcemeber, I don't know anything about him lately, Rod.Dr. Scott disappereared from public view the last 2 weeks before passing away. Then we knew he died on February 21.
I have not heard of Rehnquist either.His time is almost up, too.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 12, 2005.
WHO IS rHEINQUEST?
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 12, 2005.
The United Staes Supreme Court Justice. He is the darling of the religious right and conservatives. He is being sick lately.He was in my dream from July 4th, 2004, Zarove.
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CdX1 Can faith stop death part 3
Still on the line to die before July: Besides those who cheated death before: #9 Antonio Aguilar (8/1/2004),#10,Fidel Castro(8/2/2004),(These two after May 2005) #15, the Pope,(August 16) #23, George Bush (October 7),(These two most likely in April or early May, 2005), William Rehquist (originally January 6, 2005)(March 19-July 15),and those who still coming
Dr. Billy Graham, probably Roberto Gomez Bolanos, Luis echeverria,... Dick Clark,....my mother, Augusto Pinochet.
After June or late June:
Saddam Hessein (or in May too),Queen Elizabeth II, Clint Eastwood, John Kerry, Ross Perot, Ariel Sharon,Vladimir Putin, Patriarch Alexei, Dick Cheney,...Stan Chambers (ch. 5), Manuel Antonio Noriega...Judith Valles, ...Hugo Chavez.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 07, 2005.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 12, 2005.