Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

Hello Faith01,

I am not sure if you ever replied to this... how many ways of salvation are there? One or two? Is one by Christ and the other by 'innocence'?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 11, 2005

Answers

Also, since you are a Arminian, let me ask you this: If you believe in libertarian free will, why do you pray for someone to be converted to the faith?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 11, 2005.

Also, since God knows what decision a person would make, then created the world, how then can God really want "all men" to be saved? Would the Holy Spirit still waste his time trying to convert someone he knows did not "choose" Christ? If so, would that be unfair if the Holy Spirit still does not try to convert the soul? Since he "foreknew" those who would choose him and not choose him, is he trying to do something that he knew from the start could never happen?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 11, 2005.

"If so, would that be unfair if the Holy Spirit still does not try to convert the soul?" -do

perhaps i can word this differently.. if the Holy Spirit knows who did not choose Christ, is he still obligated to do all he can to save that person? Or can he just skip him? And if he does skip him, would that be fair or unfair?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 11, 2005.

I'd like to see this salvation by 'innocence' verse. I know most of you believe it, though it Contradicts the words of Christ, but I'd like to see it.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 11, 2005.

If our will is not in bondage, the nwhat does Christ set us free from?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 11, 2005.

Temptation.

Evil.

Sin.

We have a Free Will to accept Christ. Have a look at the condition of the Jewish people. They did not choose, yet the Christians did choose Christ.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.

Faith01,

Does the Holy spirit have anyrole in the salvation of a person? Can anyone apart from the work of the Holy Spirit come to Christ on his own?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 11, 2005.

Faith,

The Holy Spirit has not come to the Jews?

Or, has the Holy Spirit need not come to them?

Or, have the Jews rejected the Holy Spirit?

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.

Is the Holy Spirit that weak that It cannot convert all of the Jews?

Free Will, Folks, Free Will.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.

Also, since God knows what decision a person would make, then created the world, how then can God really want "all men" to be saved? Would the Holy Spirit still waste his time trying to convert someone he knows did not "choose" Christ? If so, would that be unfair if the Holy Spirit still does not try to convert the soul? Since he "foreknew" those who would choose him and not choose him, is he trying to do something that he knew from the start could never happen? -David Ortiz-

Maybe it all comes down to free-will. Maybe God knows what will happen but not how we'll deal with the situation..? Nah.. I dont know.. im still inexperienced in this area. :P

I have a problem with that too. The concept of God casting out Satan and his angels on earth before creating man.. just doesnt make sense. I mean, if he created the universe, he could simply create a place for them where they couldnt intervere with us.. but nooo. I think im leaning on the Jewish's view of Satan as a helper of God rather than an arch-enemy.

I feel life is more simple and fair than it seems. It shouldnt be too complicated.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 11, 2005.

Oh boy!

So many questions--too little time. I had no idea that when I opened this thread--it was gonna be addressed to me. Lol!

I am gonna need some time David. You asked some very good questions : )

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2005.

Good grief, David! Geez, did you leave one out?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 11, 2005.

I might have one left..

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), March 11, 2005.

I addressed my questions to Faith because David didn't address me directly. I figured that David would eventually allow me my intrusion.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.

"Have a look at the condition of the Jewish people. They did not choose, yet the Christians did choose Christ." - rod

Oh boy.. have you realized the first Christians were Jews??

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 11, 2005.

Oh, Boy. Choice.

......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.

"Oh, Boy. Choice."

lol...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 11, 2005.

I am not sure if you ever replied to this... how many ways of salvation are there? One or two? Is one by Christ and the other by 'innocence'?

It's only by faith that we are saved. Children are saved by their innocent and natural faith in God--according to Jesus:

Matt 11:25-26

At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Also, since you are a Arminian, let me ask you this: If you believe in libertarian free will, why do you pray for someone to be converted to the faith?

I pray because God wants me to pray. I pray His will. His will is that all should come to a saving faith in His Son.

Also, since God knows what decision a person would make, then created the world, how then can God really want "all men" to be saved? Would the Holy Spirit still waste his time trying to convert someone he knows did not "choose" Christ? If so, would that be unfair if the Holy Spirit still does not try to convert the soul? Since he "foreknew" those who would choose him and not choose him, is he trying to do something that he knew from the start could never happen?

The way I see foreknowledge--is that God knows these things because He can see them from eternity. In other words, what He knows--still had to happen.

"If so, would that be unfair if the Holy Spirit still does not try to convert the soul?" -do perhaps i can word this differently.. if the Holy Spirit knows who did not choose Christ, is he still obligated to do all he can to save that person? Or can he just skip him? And if he does skip him, would that be fair or unfair?

You are trying to use human reasoning on a concept that is based in eternal decrees. I just believe what the Scriptures say. Things still have to happen, for God to know what they were....see? It's a complicated thing to try and understand God in the eternal...

I'd like to see this salvation by 'innocence' verse. I know most of you believe it, though it Contradicts the words of Christ, but I'd like to see it.

It's not any one single verse David--but a revelation that comes from many Scriptures.

Matt 19:14:

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

If our will is not in bondage, the nwhat does Christ set us free from?

The power and penalty of sin...

-- (Faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2005.

The above post was addressed to David. I forgot this part: Does the Holy spirit have any role in the salvation of a person? Can anyone apart from the work of the Holy Spirit come to Christ on his own?

We are to hear the gospel and believe it before we will actually receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works to further our undtanding once we believe, but it is the Word that we must hear first. I think the Holy Spirit works in us--the believer--to convict those around us and I also believe that our loved ones--family--are even sanctified because of our faith...

Ephesians 1:13-14

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 11, 2005.

accepting jesus as the son of god and believing in him in that way doesn't make someone a better person...

if there is a hell,good people don't deserve to go there,ok they are not perfect either,but they certainly aren't THAT evil to deserve eternal pain as punishment for their inperfectness

imagine the pain when you burn your finger,now imagine that pain never never ends,you feel it every single moment,for eternity...

this only for not accepthing this guy as god's son? if he preches this **** 'either you believe in him,or you go to hell' than i think that this already indicates that he is everything but god's son...or we really have a very very cruel and evil god...

if i was god,i never would ask something like this from anyone,and i certainly wouldn't send innocent ppl to hell simply because they didn't believe in me...

if jesus is really god,and if we really can't be saved without believing in him,than he would come for all people and he would let all people to know him and he wouldn't expect from us to believe in a 2000 year old book or a corrupt insitution...(the rcc)

wake up people...you're too old for fairy tales...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 12, 2005.

"if jesus is really god,and if we really can't be saved without believing in him,than he would come for all people and he would let all people to know him and he wouldn't expect from us to believe in a 2000 year old book or a corrupt insitution...(the rcc)"

He HAS come for ALL people, SDQA, and He does wish for ALL to know Him. You have but to ask! (Most people don't)

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 12, 2005.

Not every one is going to Hell(place of drakness ,not fire as most Christians believe), ...........not everyone is going to Heaven, .......not everyone is going into purgatory(not a place of punishment but more of reformation)....sdqa.

Many will no longer exist. This number can ca from 0-50% in any given day (Protestants think we just lie there until jesus return but that is not true. People are judged daily). Even at judment day God YHWH gives people a last chance. Many choose not to exist anymore. So they no longer will evr exist. That is the final death.

But for those of us who still choose to exist...there is still hope even in the after life.

In my dreams and the dreams of my closest brother we have been into the Hell of Darkness, Purgatory, and Heaven. We also know what happens to those who choose differently.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 12, 2005.

accepting jesus as the son of god and believing in him in that way doesn't make someone a better person...

I never said it did, nor do most posters here...most arent "Faith aline", sicn even the devils belive and tremble.

You have to lead a good life, not just beleive in Jesus.

if there is a hell,good people don't deserve to go there,ok they are not perfect either,but they certainly aren't THAT evil to deserve eternal pain as punishment for their inperfectness

Which is a msirepresentaiton of the majorital posters veiw. remmber,most arent 'Faith alone" types ehre.

Most do not think that merley benleivign in Jesus saves you form Hell, and not ever heairgn of Jesus dcondemns you to Hell. Its a little deper than this.

"There are ways that seemeth right to a man, but the ways theirfe are death."

and " God judgeth the hearts" come to midn here.

You are judged bae dont eh content of your charecter, not mere beelifs.

imagine the pain when you burn your finger,now imagine that pain never never ends,you feel it every single moment,for eternity...

Why? when you can actually imagine reading a Bile, or theology books, and learnig htat this disusison is deeper than you seem willign to admit?

this only for not accepthing this guy as god's son?

NO NO NO!@ WE ARE JUDGED BASED ON WHO WE ARE, OUR MOTIVES AND ACTIONS, NOT OUR MERE BELEIFS!

if he preches this **** 'either you believe in him,or you go to hell' than i think that this already indicates that he is everything but god's son...or we really have a very very cruel and evil god...

Or we have an ignorant 20 year odl who doesnt know hat hes talkign abotu but feels like teaign into beleifs he barley understands...

if i was god,i never would ask something like this from anyone,and i certainly wouldn't send innocent ppl to hell simply because they didn't believe in me...

No innocent pepel ar in Hell, thats sort of the point.

However, rejection fo God sends tou to Hell...

Because Hell is seperationf orm God.

Get it?

You choose where you go, to God or to Hell.

No middle ground here.

if jesus is really god,and if we really can't be saved without believing in him,than he would come for all people and he would let all people to know him and he wouldn't expect from us to believe in a 2000 year old book or a corrupt insitution...(the rcc)

Ironiclaly the Cahtolic churhc doesnt twach "Faith alone" and contains the doctorien of invincible Ignorance...

Likewise, the book contains wisdom profitable to understansing, best nto to knock it.

And beleif in God means soemthign you just dotn undertsand.its nto "Beleif God exists" or "Beleif Jsus wa God" that matters, but actve faith that leads ot righeosu living, in the ideals set before us.

wake up people...you're too old for fairy tales...

Its not a fairy tale, and since you dot even know what it is why shodl yo complain?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 12, 2005.

zarove...

my post was directed to everyone who thinks that you will spend your eternity in hell if you have heard of jesus but don't believe in him

and i never said all christians think this way...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 13, 2005.

"I pray because God wants me to pray. I pray His will. His will is that all should come to a saving faith in His Son."

Ok, but if God cannot change the nature of a persons heart, then what are you praying for? You believe that men already have the 'natural ability' to believe, so what else can God do?

I know what I pray for. I ask God to open their hearts and blind eyes so they can see the truth. I ask that because the Bible reveals that only God can save them.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 13, 2005.

Faith01,

‘The power and penalty of sin... ‘ The power of sin? And what exactly is this power? According to your beliefs, sin has no power over us since we have the moral and spiritual capacity to ‘make a decision’ to believe in God. "…for of such is the kingdom of heaven" This verse does not say that there are two ways of salvation. If salvation is by ‘innocence’, then can doctors who perform abortions be considered the greatest preachers of all time? I mean, look at how many souls they’ve saved. It also says, "for of such". Does that mean infants, or those with the child-like faith that is a gift from God?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 13, 2005.

But David--

Then your prayers are as futile as you think mine are. Because if God has decreed from before the creation of the world, just who He is going to save and who He is not, then why should you pray for them?

I never really pray for anything so specific., I always pray His will- -and I think the purpose of prayer is to get close with God.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 13, 2005.

Yes David,

Salvation is the deliverance from the power of sin and also its penalty.

Unless we are saved and given the strength of Christ--sin is hard to resist. In fact, the Scriptures tell us that without Christ--without the Spirit in us--we cannot do anything good.

It is by hearing the gospel and believing it--that we are saved, delivered.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 13, 2005.

"In fact, the Scriptures tell us that without Christ--without the Spirit in us--we cannot do anything good." - Faith01

Is believing good?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 14, 2005.

"Because if God has decreed from before the creation of the world, just who He is going to save and who He is not, then why should you pray for them?" - Faith01

This is the old "if God predestines then why evangelize" straw-man argument.

I do not know who is the elect.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 14, 2005.

Faith01,

Do you believe that infants are sinless?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 14, 2005.

Well, I know you can't believe that.. because the 'wages of sin is death'. Infants die...and keep on dying.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 14, 2005.

But David, we are saved by faith. And as the Bible tells us, children have faith, naturally. The Kingdom of heaven already belongs to innocent children. By innocent, I am only refering to their untainted faith and hope. They would never have a reason not to believe in God. That comes with age. I certainly do not believe that an infant who dies before he is baptised or has had a chance to even know what is going on, would be condemned to hell. Why would God make and condemn babies? That's not the loving Father I know.

You also answered that my argument is a strawman where praying is concerned. Why pray, you asked, if God already knows who is going to believe? And I said, why pray, if God has already predetermined who would believe? It's the same thing.

You may not know who are the *elect* as you call them--but God does and if it's been decreed from before the creation of all things--then you pray in vain, the same as you insinuate I do. You say that it seems a waste of time to pray for those who God already knows will not choose Him. But it's the same thing.., both would obviously be a waste of time--if, that was the purpose of prayer.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 14, 2005.

if god can make people believe...why then praying for them,god is gonna do anyway what he wants and not what you ask him...

if god can make ppl believe,then there's no free will

if god can make ppl do believe why doesn't he make all ppl believe then? he loves us right? why would he choose then between ppl who he wants to make believe and who not?

and to faith:

taking something as a truth or not accepting something as a truth doesn't make someone sooooo evil that he deserves eternal punishment...faith in jesus doesn't save and can't save if not-believing sends someone to hell

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 14, 2005.

Faith,

I never really pray for anything so specific., I always pray His will- -and I think the purpose of prayer is to get close with God

I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with this whatsoever, but wonder by your post above, do you think there is anything WRONG with praying for specific things (such as conversion of non-believers)?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 14, 2005.

No, I don't think there is anything wrong with it because it is of God's will that all should come to a saving faith in His Son., and in fact, God is busy trying to convict all people by the cross.

But free-will is an element here--which explains why He doesn't just force and convict people.

We are already convicted by the truth, we just need to admit it. Some refuse. It is a denial. We harden our own hearts...

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 14, 2005.

"We are already convicted by the truth, we just need to admit it. Some refuse. It is a denial. We harden our own hearts..."

[there's a big problem with this 'truth'

there is no proof and to accept something as a truth there is need for proof,if god doesn't give us any proof about this,how can he expect then from us to believe it?]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 15, 2005.

"But David, we are saved by faith." - Faith01

Ok, why do you insist to keep telling me this? I guess I must have not been clear with my beliefs. I believe we are justified through faith, I believe we are justified through faith only, and nothing else. I guess you must have forgotten I believe in Sola Fide.

You say children have faith naturally. You believe in the doctrine commonly known as "once saved always saved". Tell me, why do people go to hell then? Is it because they "lose" this faith they had as a child, thus then damning them to hell? Which means, losing one's salvation is possible then? So if they have faith "naturally", why can't they be baptized? What's wrong with that?

"I certainly do not believe that an infant who dies before he is baptized or has had a chance to even know what is going on, would be condemned to hell."

He is a sinner, by nature. God owes no one anything. God is Holy, Sovereign, and Just. Salvation is through Christ alone, not through innocence. Otherwise, Christ's sacrifice on the cross would be worthless if people can just take the shortcut.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 15, 2005.

David--

Christ's sacrifice on the cross is futile already if indeed God has already predestined those who are saved and those who will not be saved.

To what value is Christ's sacrifice to a person who simply can never believe because God has not granted him the ability to believe through regeneration--as is believed by Calvin theoloty?

And conversely, to what purpose did Christ have to die--if God was to save certain people not based on their belief--but based on His choice?

Of course God doesn't owe us anything. But would a truly loving God-- whose love is perfect and merciful, only select certain individuals to convict? Why would He save only some--when He could save all then? If it was really His choice, why would a loving Father choose not to give some people the ability to believe?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 15, 2005.

What I am trying to say here David, is that if God would choose not to grant certain individuals the same abilty to believe that he chooses to give others-- and then to condemn them for their unbelief-- does this really sound like love?

This is why I believe that a child who has not reached the age of accountibility would not be condemned to hell for unbelief. We are all held resposible for our choices. I think that this is why Jesus warned His hearers of His day *not* to do anything that would lead children away from Him.

Mark 9:42

“And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

The answer is yes--a child can grow up not to accept Jesus. He wasn't saved beforehand because he made a conscious choice to believe in Jesus--but because He naturally did accept the things God revealed to him. But there comes an age of accountibility where an individual has to own his faith for himself.

Matt 11:25:

At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Matt 19:14:

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 15, 2005.

faith,

No, I don't think there is anything wrong with it because it is of God's will that all should come to a saving faith in His Son., and in fact, God is busy trying to convict all people by the cross.

But free-will is an element here--which explains why He doesn't just force and convict people

Makes sense to me.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 16, 2005.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 15, 2005.