When you find yourself in need of confession, does it change your prayer habits?

Maybe it's just one of my many neuroses, but if my soul is in an unfortunate state, my prayer life seems to dissapate into nothing. Does anyone have a similar experience? Is it shame before God? Is it a subconscious belief that God does not hear or is displeased by the prayers of someone in sin?

-- jake (jake__@msn.com), June 28, 2002

Answers

Good Morning Jake:

1 John 1:9

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Unconfessed sin does breach our intimacy with the Lord, but as the scripture says, When we confess, He forgives and CLEANSES FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS! How glorious! How incredible! How like the great Lover of our Soul! He is SOOO worthy to be praised!

Sometimes we can't forgive ourselves, though, and that's a different issue altogether. BUT, We MUST forgive ourselves because Christ has forgiven us!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 28, 2002.

Good morning Jake and Gail, :)

In find that when my soul is darkned by sins I have not confessed, my prayer life is dry as a bone, without feeling. I feel so unworthy to pray, even though I should. I feel much better once having confessed my sins. A sincere contrition for our sins is very pleasing to God, in my opinion.

Gail, you say that sometimes we can't forgive ourselves but we must because God has forgiven us. Someone once told me that not forgiving ourselves is a sin - because by not forgiving ourselves we don't believe that God has died for our sins and already has forgiven us.

Also, we as catholics go to confession and receive absolution for our sins. What do the protestant people do about their sins? Do they confess directly to God?

When I was in a charistmatic prayer group years ago, we had this discussion and the majority felt that only catholics will go to heaven.

How do you feel about only catholics going to heaven. That is probably another thread, isn't it and it is a subject that probably has been discussed on here before. If so, just direct me to the thread.

Am I a bad catholic for believing that all good people are going to heaven, not just catholics?

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), June 28, 2002.

Hi again MaryLu:

I have heard that to, 'it is a sin not to forgive yourself.'

I think more than likely, it is just that that person has not "understood" what Christ did for us on the cross. Meditating on passages of scripture that PROMISES forgiveness to the repentant is a great way to overcome this! And then asking the Holy Spirit to give you revelation on it.

I wish that were true -- that all good people go to heaven -- but Jesus says you MUST be born again. Those who have been told of Christ, and reject His lordship, are in serious peril. I think, at least in this country, most people have been given that opportunity. The point is that Christ gives us "His" perfection or His righteousness when we trust Him, believe in Him, and rely on Him. If a person rejects Christ's lordhsip, they can't have His perfection and thereby could not enter heaven.

Course, why would they even want to? If they rejected Christ here, they certainly wouldn't want to be drug into His presence there?

I think the catechism does address the issue of Protestants and their eternal destiny. Basically, I think it says "those baptised believers who, through no fault of their own, do not join the Catholic church, due to lack of knowledge," etc. etc. "will go to heaven." That's a VERY loose quote I might add. Love,

Gail

P.S. Jesus says, "I know my own, and my own hear my voice." He's the judge! Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. I guess we'll find out when we get there!!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 28, 2002.

Mary Lu, you wrote: "When I was in a charistmatic prayer group years ago, we had this discussion and the majority felt that only Catholics will go to heaven."

This is TERRIBLE! Every one of those people in "the majority" should have known better, as you did. Although they should have heard the truth from the pulpit (meaning that part of the blame is on their parish priests), they also should have read it in their diocesan newspaper or Catholic magazine (to which they should subscribe). And they should have read it in the most important document of Vatican II.

It is as Gail explained.
If a Catholic knows that God wants her to remain Catholic, she must remain one in order to be saved. And if a non-Catholic knows that God wants her to be a Catholic, she must become one in order to be saved. But if she does not know this, she nevertheless can by saved by following her conscience and doing what is right, avoiding deadly sin. This is true for a non-Catholic Christian, a Jew, a Moslem, a pagan, or an atheist. [Note: This is not saying that one religion is as good as another. We don't believe in "religious indifference." God wants every human being on Earth to be a Catholic, to enjoy the fullness of doctrinal truth, the blessings of the Sacraments, etc. -- in order greatly to enhance their chances of being saved.]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 28, 2002.

My two cents worth being to forgive ourselves is indeed the heardest road to travel. We are so conditioned to social norms which have built a cage for most around hearts wanting freedom.

A poem I wrote afew years ago:

The Thief

The crowd laughed and jeered Tears of mirth did so appear

They said he caught a death he deserved

Christ looked to His brother and thought He got a life he did not

Jean Bouchard - A Traveller - Aug '95

Again it is so very difficult for us I feel to let go of what is expected and to follow the path of a man who was different.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), June 30, 2002.

Hi Jake.

When talking about finding your self in need of Confession, you said, "But if my soul is in an unfortunate state,.........."

Just in case you didn't know, but you probably do, knowing you.

A person in mortal sin can regain the state of grace before receiving the sacrament of Penance, by making an act of perfect contrition, with the sincere purpose of going to Confession.

An act of perfect contrition takes away sin immediately. Our sins however grievous are forgiven before we confess them, but the obligation to confess as soon as we can remains.

If you have the misfortune to commit a mortal sin, you should ask God's pardon and grace at once, make an act of perfect contrition, and go to Confession as soon as we can. If we die without being able to confess to a priest we could be saved from hell by our act of perfect contrition.

We may not receive the Eucharist after committing any mortal sins. If we merely make a an act of perfect contrition, one who has sinned must go to confession first.

Just thought I would bounce that off of you, Jake, in case you wern't aware. Your soul doesn't have to be in an infortunate state, :-)

God bless

David

-- David (David@excite.com), July 02, 2002.

while i know this thread is old, i have just found it and wanted to add my $.02 worth:

while i agree with david that a perfect act of contrition suffices, followed of course by confession as soon as possible, i read a saint (i don't remember which one) saying that a perfect act of contrition is *very* rare indeed. because most people cannot sense the pain they have caused Our Lord until they have received the grace from the sacrament of penance. and i have found this to be true for myself. when i have found myself in the state of serious sin, it is not until i am in the confessional, after i have told my sins and am receiving absolution that it hits me how greatly i have offended Our Lord. it is then, and only then, that i will start crying over my grave offense and realize how many beatings of Our Lord that i was responsible for. this is exactly how this saint explained it. i will have to do research to see if i can track down which saint said this.

also, in answer to john's statement. it is very rare (some saints being the exception) for even a devout catholic to go through life without committing a mortal sin. much less those of little or no faith. therefore, while in essence what you say may be true, that if one really has never heard of the church cannot be held responsible for that. but in this day and age there are not really many people who have not heard of the Church. and if God wants all to be Catholic (and i believe he does) then would he not make sure that the Catholic church would be introduced in one way or another to them? and if it is, and they still deny it, then they are denying God's grace and calling. and denying God's calling will not put you in favor with Him. i do not think, especially atheists have much hope of salvation.

my opinions.

-- Isabel (isabel1492@yahoo.com), July 20, 2002.

Jmj

Hi, Isabel.
Since you wrote some comments in response to my earlier message, I will return the favor. (In the end, I hope you won't consider it a "disfavor!")

[By the way, "Isabel," how many people are writing messages above your signature -- two or three? Are you mother and daughter? I notice that one person consistently writes in a certain style with capital "I" for first-person pronouns. But at least one other "Isabel" writes in a different style, often starting sentences with "and" [small "a"] and always using small "i" for the first-person pronoun. If there are two or more of you, would you consider signing separately? You don't have to, but it would seem to make more sense.]

"isabel" [little "i"], you wrote: "it is very rare (some saints being the exception) for even a devout catholic to go through life without committing a mortal sin."
isabel, how could you possibly know this? Only God knows how many people commit mortal sins.

You continued: "... much less those of little or no faith."
Same comment. Only God knows.

You wrote: "therefore, while in essence what you say may be true, that if one really has never heard of the church cannot be held responsible for that."
Ah, but that is not what I stated. I did not write about whether people had merely "heard of the [Catholic C]hurch," but about whether people had known God's will that they enter her. [I wrote: "... if a non-Catholic knows that God wants her to be a Catholic, she must become one in order to be saved. But if she does not know this, she nevertheless can by saved by following her conscience and doing what is right, avoiding deadly sin."]

You continued: "but in this day and age there are not really many people who have not heard of the Church."
I wish that were true, but I think that some millions are still unaware of us. Even so, it is not the mere "hearing" that we exist (or even merely "hearing" what we believe) that matters, as I have explained. What matters is the coming to be convinced concerning God's will.

You continued: "and if God wants all to be Catholic (and i believe he does) then would he not make sure that the Catholic church would be introduced in one way or another to them?"
No, he would not and does not "make sure" that it happens. To do that, he would have to violate some people's free will. Right now many people are exercising their will not to spread the truth of the Catholic faith to billions. God does not force those people to go against their will, just to "make sure" that everyone on Earth would have the Church "introduced" to them. He allows the faith to be spread by willing "apostles."

You continued: "... and if [the Church] is [introduced to them], and they still deny it, then they are denying God's grace and calling and denying God's calling will not put you in favor with Him."
I can't agree with you, because mere "introduction" is not enough. Those who are "introduced" to the Church must also become convinced about her before they would fall under an obligation to join her. There are usually serious obstacles that make it difficult even for a sincere person to become convinced that Jesus founded the Catholic Church and that he wants all to be members. I think that, sadly, many non-Catholic people, through no fault of their own, never reach the point of being convinced. God does not hold this against them as a "denial of his grace and calling." [By the way, what I am writing here is based on Catholic doctrine. You can find the same sentiments in the 19th-century writings of Bl. Pius IX.]

You closed by writing: "i do not think, especially atheists have much hope of salvation."
I have no way of evaluating their chances. Only God knows, so I wouldn't even "guess," much less "think" one way or the other. I would rather just hope and pray for the best -- i.e., conversions on the deathbed, if not earlier.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 20, 2002.

John,

Thank you for taking the time to answer me in such great detail. Isabel is all one in the same person. I sometimes just get too lazy to constantly be hitting the shift key. But, if I start a post one way, whether using caps or not, I usually try and be consitent in that particular post, though not always. Sorry if that peeves anyone. I will try and do better.

While everything you say makes perfect sense, I have a very hard time understanding that particular doctrine. When the Church says "No salvation outside the Catholic Church", but then teaches something which appears to be contrary to that statement, then it confuses me.

Also, another thought. Baptism is also necessary for salvation. So if a Jew (I don't think they have a form of baptism, do they?) or atheist has children, and their children grow up believing in what they have taught them, and die without conversion, then how can we say they had a chance to be saved without receiving baptism? (Of course, God could have given them the grace of desire, or even send an angel down from Heaven for all we know.......that is something to ponder.) Of course, I do take into account that we never know what was truly in someone's heart, or what happens to them moments before death, and we cannot say for sure (excepting the saints and others that have been allowed to appear from hell or purgatory) whether anyone is in Heaven or hell, but.........well, I guess what I am trying to say is this: I think that many, if not most, people are introduced to the Church in way that *would* allow for conversion, *if* they had their hearts and minds open to the will of God. But many people (and I have heard it said to me many times) will straight up tell you that they would never join the Catholic church because it has too many *rules.* Therefore, they are putting their wills above God's, they want what is easier, they do not want to have to sacrifice.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that this is in fact the way that it is with these people, and only God knows for sure, but only that I think it is highly possible that not as many people are going to Heaven as what most would like to believe. Our Lady of Fatima did say that "souls are falling into hell, like snowflakes from Heaven."

-- Isabel (isabel1492@yahoo.com), July 21, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Isabel. You wrote:
"While everything you say makes perfect sense, I have a very hard time understanding that particular doctrine. When the Church says, 'No salvation outside the Catholic Church,' but then teaches something which appears to be contrary to that statement, then it confuses me."

You're off to a good start, because you acknowledge that something only "appears to be contrary" to something else. It is NOT contrary. Part of being a Catholic is knowing that the Church cannot teach mutually contradictory things. So the solution is for you to learn what the Church actually means by the words, "No salvation outside the Church." If you experience confusion, it can only be because someone taught you a wrong meaning of those words. For example, if you spend too much time with schismatics (or their writings), you may hear the error that the words mean: "To be saved, a person must be baptized and become a 'card-carrying Catholic,' a registered member of a parish where he must receive the sacraments and must believe everything the Church teaches." I can tell that you know intuitively that this cannot be correct.

So, what do the words mean? Isabel, here is a link to the 2000 Vatican declaration named "Dominus Iesus: On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church." I recommend that you read the whole document, but here is a pertinent passage from it:
"The Church is the 'universal sacrament of salvation,' since, united always in a mysterious way to the Savior Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God's plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being. For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, 'salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit;' it has a relationship with the Church, which 'according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit.'"
A footnote pointed to by the above paragraph says: "The famous formula 'extra Ecclesiam nullus omnino salvatur' ['outside the Church, no one at all is saved'] is to be interpreted in this sense."

Isabel, this forum has been open for 4.5 years. (Have you visited its archives?) As you can imagine this topic has been raised many times. I want to give you links to three old threads, where you can read some discussions. These may not be the best discussions of the topic ever had here, but they were the easiest ones for me to find:
Link #1
Link #2
Link #3

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 21, 2002.

RATS! Let me try that again. Moderator please delete this and the above message. Thanks. JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 21, 2002.

Hello, Isabel. You wrote:
"While everything you say makes perfect sense, I have a very hard time understanding that particular doctrine. When the Church says, 'No salvation outside the Catholic Church,' but then teaches something which appears to be contrary to that statement, then it confuses me."

You're off to a good start, because you acknowledge that something only "appears to be contrary" to something else. It is NOT contrary. Part of being a Catholic is knowing that the Church cannot teach mutually contradictory things. So the solution is for you to learn what the Church actually means by the words, "No salvation outside the Church." If you experience confusion, it can only be because someone taught you a wrong meaning of those words. For example, if you spend too much time with schismatics (or their writings), you may hear the error that the words mean: "To be saved, a person must be baptized and become a 'card-carrying Catholic,' a registered member of a parish where he must receive the sacraments and must believe everything the Church teaches." I can tell that you know intuitively that this cannot be correct.

So, what do the words mean?
Isabel, here is a link to the 2000 Vatican declaration named "Dominus Iesus: On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church." I recommend that you read the whole document, but here is a pertinent passage from it:
"The Church is the 'universal sacrament of salvation,' since, united always in a mysterious way to the Savior Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God's plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being. For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, 'salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit;' it has a relationship with the Church, which 'according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit.'"
A footnote pointed to by the above paragraph says: "The famous formula 'extra Ecclesiam nullus omnino salvatur' ['outside the Church, no one at all is saved'] is to be interpreted in this sense."

Isabel, this forum has been open for 4.5 years. (Have you visited its archives?) As you can imagine this topic has been raised many times. I want to give you links to three old threads, where you can read some discussions. These may not be the best discussions of the topic ever had here, but they were the easiest ones for me to find:
Link #1
Link #2
Link #3

God bless you.
John
PS: I found something troubling in your two messages on this thread. You leave me with a gut feeling that you actually want all non-Catholics to be damned. There seems to be a deep prejudice in your heart against them -- and a sort of message that you have earned salvation by belonging to the right religion, while they don't deserve to be saved. Isable, if you think this way, even a little bit, you are hanging on to an uncharitable and "un-Catholic" way of thinking. It's a very unpleasant kind of thing found among schismatics, not among orthodox Catholics.

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 21, 2002.

Thanks, John, for a great posting. I will read those links as well. VERY helpful!

Isabel, you are a lovely person with a lovely heart -- and also a lovely name, I might add! I hope that John's intuition is wrong, but if he's right, please, please, ask the Lord to soften your heart as His is toward non-Catholics, especially non-Catholic Christians.

I pray that you will heed some of the messages the others have written on other posts. Division DOES cause hardness and self- righteousness! I know because I've been there "I know whereof I speak." Division is a leaven that starts with an overly-critical spirit, and it will steal your joy, your charity and your witness for Christ!

Much love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 21, 2002.

Great post Gail!

God Bless you,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), July 21, 2002.

John, Gail,

Thank you for your posts. Indeed you are wrong. It only grieves me to see more and more people who think they can do what they want, and as long as they don't hurt anyone along the way then it is OK and they can still make it to Heaven just as easily as the next guy. Added to the fact, that as society becomes more and more decadent, then more and more is just becoming accepted as being OK, especially by the younger generation (such as premarital sex). A hundred years ago, premarital sex was known to be taboo (not that no one did it), but now people treat it as being natural, they are going to do it anyway. A girl in 1900 would probably have known she had sinned greviously by doing this, and yet a girl (or boy) today does not think twice about it. But does that make it any less wrong? And believe me, I have had to deal with that kind of 'whatever goes' attitude on a very personal level, out of my own husband. And he is Catholic, or should I say catholic? I guess what I want is for everyone to be Catholic, although that is wishful thinking, I am sure. The thought of anyone going to hell is very upsetting to me. I know Christ instituted the Church for the salvation of souls, and that is why this doctrine has always confused me. Why institute a Church if you can be saved in any religion?

BTW, thank you for the links, I will read them.

Isabel

-- Isabel (isabel1492@yahoo.com), July 21, 2002.

Hello Isabel:

There's a passage from the Old Testament that Jesus quoted: "Zeal for thy House has consumed me," and so it does. I just pray that your zeal and Jake's will not be misplaced, and that you won't leave His House. The Church needs you. Don't leave!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 21, 2002.

For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, 'salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit;' it has a relationship with the Church, which 'according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit.'"

A priest friend of mine summed it up for me once by saying: It's possible for someone to be saved in a false religion, but it's impossible for someone to be saved BY a false religion. I think that's in keeping with what the Church has always taught.

-- jake (jake__@msn.com), July 22, 2002.

That's REALLY good, Jake. Thanks

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 22, 2002.

You're most welcome. :)

-- jake (jake__@msn.com), July 22, 2002.

Thanks, Isabel.
I was glad to read that I had been making the wrong assumptions about your attitude toward non-Catholics. Your heart is not hardened toward them. You don't assume that they will be damned, and you don't want them to be. I apologize.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 23, 2002.